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#1 Boniver

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 00:09

The Indianapolis motor Speedway was opened in 1909,

the track was then paved with 3.2 million bricks, but what was the first race on bricks, (28 mei 1910 ???)

and where in 1909 or 1910 there also “banking” bends of was this later.

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#2 fines

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 16:58

The first "official" race on the bricks was May 27 in 1910, but there were timed trial runs on December 17 and 18 in 1909, including a sort of handicap race over 20 miles on the first day, won by Johnny Aitken on a National.

And yes, the modest banking was always there, even on the dirt track.

#3 f1steveuk

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 17:54

Is the "official" circuit name The Indianapolis Motor Speedway, or the Hoosier Raceway, as the documants given to me at the first GP there, says both!

They were still selling bricks in the shops there (all numberered!!), but I couldn't justify lugging a brick back to the UK!

#4 fines

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 18:06

I can't say I have ever heard the name "Hoosier Raceway", and I've done quite a bit of research on US racing... :confused: Maybe it's a new name, I'm not following the sport anymore!

There was a Hoosier Motor Speedway in the twenties, but that was a totally different track!

#5 f1steveuk

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 18:23

When I get home, I shall dig out the paperwork and see exactly what it says! No one could actually tell me what a "Hoosier" was/is, nearly everything in the area of Indy' had something with Hoosier in it somehwere!

#6 David McKinney

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 20:21

Steve:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoosier

#7 B Squared

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 22:37

A favorite local micro brewery defines "hoosier" as such: "A native or inhabitant of Indiana; An independent, industrious, hospitable, down-home person who enjoys basketball, indian summers, race cars, popcorn, and great beer."

This has become my favorite definition of hoosier when asked.

Brian

#8 Buford

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 22:46

Originally posted by B Squared
A favorite local micro brewery defines "hoosier" as such: "A native or inhabitant of Indiana; An independent, industrious, hospitable, down-home person who enjoys basketball, indian summers, race cars, popcorn, and great beer."

This has become my favorite definition of hoosier when asked.

Brian



Yeah no need to mention the missing teeth, inbreeding, and lack of deodorant.

#9 B Squared

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 23:05

"Yeah no need to mention the missing teeth, inbreeding, and lack of deodorant."

Really - dear sir - You should try meeting a better crowd of people to run with.
Just curious on why you would throw such insults my way? I 've always been rather impressed by the demeanor of the people on this forum. Obviously, I was wrong. in part anyway.

Brian

#10 Buford

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 00:01

Originally posted by B Squared
"Yeah no need to mention the missing teeth, inbreeding, and lack of deodorant."

Really - dear sir - You should try meeting a better crowd of people to run with.
Just curious on why you would throw such insults my way? I 've always been rather impressed by the demeanor of the people on this forum. Obviously, I was wrong. in part anyway.

Brian


Ha ha I spent 30 years going to Indy two weeks to a full month every year for the 500 and lived among the Hoosiers themselves and I am quite well versed in Hoosiermania. Not an insult at you sir. Some of my best friends of all time were Hoosiers, some of the friendliest people anywhere. And most my fun moments of all time were spent in Hoosierland. Living in the Chicago area I made Hoosier girls my women of choice for 3 decades at least one weekend a month except dead of winter.

No need to have a fancy job, own your own home, a fat portfolio. All Hoosier girls cared about is "Who has the six pack." I don't see where I made an insult at all. What did I say that wasn't totally true. You can't tell me Indiana doesn't lead the North in missing teeth now can you? Look around. Those who know me will know my affection for Hoosiers is longstanding, inbreed as they are and all.

#11 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 00:17

B Squared. Rest assured that Buford didn't mean it personally! And if he'd wanted to insult you, he'd have called you "little man" :lol:

He's not been around much recently - certainly not in the short time you've been here - but if TNF were a country, he'd have the status of "national treasure". Take some time to explore some of his old posts - I'm sure you'll be captivated, as we all have been at one time or the other!

#12 Buford

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 00:25

Well thank you Vitesse2. Actually I am doing all my insulting right now on the political threads in the Paddock Club. And you don't need all those teeth anyway to lead a full life. We have way too many don't you think? I didn't mean to imply I was opposed to Indiana's missing teeth chic. But there are repercussions to all that "great beer" you know. Hoosiers have their own way of settling issues that is a bit more immediate than most other places i have lived and played.

#13 B Squared

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 01:08

Buford & Vitesse2 - Thank you both for the clarifications. I guess I'm more of a diplomat than settling issues in "fist city", so I still have a full mouth of teeth. I'm in Chicago almost weekly on business, & I've always been more impressed with the ladies up by Buford's old town. However, the portfolio comment is close to all their hearts! And when listening to the radio, the Chicagoans seem to throw most of their insults to those behind the "Cheddar Curtain." Anyway, enough said & sorry for the confusion. I'll look forward to the additional stories that make this a great place to come to.

Brian

#14 Buford

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 01:20

Originally posted by B Squared
Buford & Vitesse2 - Thank you both for the clarifications. I guess I'm more of a diplomat than settling issues in "fist city", so I still have a full mouth of teeth. I'm in Chicago almost weekly on business, & I've always been more impressed with the ladies up by Buford's old town. However, the portfolio comment is close to all their hearts! And when listening to the radio, the Chicagoans seem to throw most of their insults to those behind the "Cheddar Curtain." Anyway, enough said & sorry for the confusion. I'll look forward to the additional stories that make this a great place to come to.

Brian



Yeah I didn't like the stuck up social climbing gold digger Chicago women. Indiana girls were much more friendly. And yes you know the old saying. Concerning the weather of course? Wisconsin blows and Indiana sucks?

#15 Joe Bosworth

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 06:30

As one who received my university education at that fine institution one hour north of Indy on Route 51 as it was then known.

The school was then renowned for the lack of quality for the most part on behalf of the few of the fairer sex that strayed into the campus.

As we used to say, the Hoosiers send their hogs to the market and their pigs to Purdue.

#16 f1steveuk

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 09:05

I think I know what a Hoosier is now! I'll check the circuit name I have on the official papers asap!

#17 RA Historian

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 13:14

I once spent a couple loooong years in Indiana when, while in the Army, I was assigned to Ft Harrison in Indianapolis for nine weeks............ :|

But I must say that I did take the occasion to drive over to the Speedway, toured the museum (then in a much smaller building just outside the track, IIRC), and rode in the VW Microbus around the track. While the banking is modest, it does look much steeper in person than on TV.

Tom

#18 B Squared

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 13:27

"They were still selling bricks in the shops there (all numberered!!), but I couldn't justify lugging a brick back to the UK!"

A late friend of my family, John Hyland, was a dealer in old IMS souveniers. Every year at a September "swap meet" at the Speedway, I would have as much money saved as I could from cutting lawns, shoveling snow, & other sundry work so I could buy as many Speedway Pit Badges & programs as my money would allow. One year he gifted me with an original brick from the track. He would go out & retrieve them when the track had a tunneling or similar project, which exposed the original substrate. Back in the '60's, the contractor would scoop up the debris and haul it off for dumping. Now each is looked upon with a big $$$ attached to it. I also have a brick from the Duesenberg factory. So, when told I'm a "couple of bricks short of a full load", it's great to have these as a backup!

Brian

#19 vashlin

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 13:43

Originally posted by Buford



Yeah no need to mention the missing teeth, inbreeding, and lack of deodorant.


As a "Hoosier girl" member of this forum I say, "Excuse me?" I do still have most of my teeth and the other two don't apply.
:

As far as the term Hoosier goes, even the Indiana History class we were all required to take in Jr. High couldn't supply a definitive explanation.

LinC

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#20 Buford

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 00:23

Originally posted by B Squared
"They were still selling bricks in the shops there (all numberered!!), but I couldn't justify lugging a brick back to the UK!"

A late friend of my family, John Hyland, was a dealer in old IMS souveniers. Every year at a September "swap meet" at the Speedway, I would have as much money saved as I could from cutting lawns, shoveling snow, & other sundry work so I could buy as many Speedway Pit Badges & programs as my money would allow. One year he gifted me with an original brick from the track. He would go out & retrieve them when the track had a tunneling or similar project, which exposed the original substrate. Back in the '60's, the contractor would scoop up the debris and haul it off for dumping. Now each is looked upon with a big $$$ attached to it. I also have a brick from the Duesenberg factory. So, when told I'm a "couple of bricks short of a full load", it's great to have these as a backup!

Brian


I have about 70 Speedway bricks in my garage. Collected them lying around the grounds in the years 1961 to mid 1980s. Biggest haul was a ton of them under the turn 4 grandstand. Problem is they need to be cleaned up and in 25 years I have been too lazy to figure out how to get the cement off them that held them together. So they just sit there.

Have been waiting until the price went up but they never did and then the Speedway started selling them themselves. Last one I did anything with was one I donated to the Watkins Glen Museum 3 or so years ago to be auctioned off with a Bobby Rahal signature display for fund raising, and one I gave to the President of Watkins Glen for his hospitality and a vintage racer who took my late dad around the old course in his Hansgen Special race car.

#21 B Squared

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 09:01

Buford - Mine has a bit of the concrete on it too. I've never really worried about getting it removed for one can see the markings that confirm its identity. Plus that mortar is relevant to the pieces story too. I don't think I've ever seen a complete brick for sale at the Speedway. It seems their favorite presentation, and quite brilliant from the money generating end, is to have a cross section cut of approximately 1/4" thick mounted in a frame with a (name your favorite Indy legend) photo history to go along with it. Usually something along the line of Foyt, Mears, or Unser with all of their winning official photos or the like. Beautifully presented, but not cheap by any means. Problem is, with each cut, they lose as much brick to dust as they preserve. Off to Grosse Point, MI this morning. Everyone make it a great day.

Brian

#22 Joe Bosworth

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 11:10

Hey Bu'

Could I have one??

Private mail me with a price and I'll figure out how to get it from there.

Regards

#23 MPea3

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 14:39

I've become increasingly skeptical over the whole brick thing in recent years. First of all, if you want one they're available from many sources, including ebay. I have two, one that I paid too much for and another that a friend from Whiteland, Indiana gave me. The one from my friend I believe to be real, as he had a number of them in his garage which he claimed to have gotten from rubble at the Speedway. The other I'm not so sure.

Here's the problem. The use of bricks as pavement wasn't uncommon in that time, especially in the midwest. I also know that in the small town of Kirksville, Missouri, much of the downtown area was paved with bricks at one time, and I remember that when some of those areas were re-paved with asphalt, the old bricks were dug up instead of being paved over because of the horribly lumpy way in which the bricks had settled over time.

As I understand it, the bricks from the Speedway came from a number of different sources. One of mine is labeled "Culver" and the other "Poston".

A couple of years ago I was in Aspen, Colorado, showing my kids where I'd spend two Summers at the Music Festival, and we were walking around town on some of the streets which had been closed off for pedestrian use. Paved with asphalt in the 1970's, they had been nicely re-done since in brick. Looking down, I saw bricks from Poston and Culver, and others. I was shocked.

So has it become the case that any paving bricks from the old sources may have become "Speedway bricks" for sale?

#24 B Squared

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 16:13

"I've become increasingly skeptical over the whole brick thing in recent years."

Just as with anything, you need to be aware of the source, the persons integrity, & the motive (ie - CASH). I no more doubt the source of my IMS brick, or Buford's for that matter, than I do my own name. It's a shame that people have to look at everything these days with such a cautious & doubting eye. Another sad statement of the times. Do your homework or be afraid of everyone & everything and find a place to hide from the world so you don't get hurt. I don't choose to live that way.

Brian

#25 Buford

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 17:45

http://rides.webshot...101658007lpVNcv

It is hard to fake a 1901 forged brick that was in the ground 50 years.

#26 B Squared

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 17:59

Buford - I see the source of your photo - I've been to his home & he has a stack similar to yours IIRC. I think he even did a small booklet on the history of Culver Brick and its place in Speedway history. I know I have that book stashed away somewhere, I'll see if I can try to locate it to pass on any relative information. Thanks.

Brian

#27 Buford

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 18:08

http://cgi.ebay.com/...p3286.m20.l1116

That guy wants $400.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...p3286.m20.l1116

Supposedly signed by Cheever - $200

For 20 years you could get them at the nastologia show race weekend for $30. This is why I have never done anything with mine.

#28 stevewf1

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 18:12

Originally posted by MPea3
Here's the problem. The use of bricks as pavement wasn't uncommon in that time, especially in the midwest. I also know that in the small town of Kirksville, Missouri, much of the downtown area was paved with bricks at one time, and I remember that when some of those areas were re-paved with asphalt, the old bricks were dug up instead of being paved over because of the horribly lumpy way in which the bricks had settled over time.


Fast-forward to November 6, 2008. I was following the CSX rail line from Indianapolis to Crawfordsville IN (taking pictures of trains is one of my hobbies), and near a town called New Ross IN, I turned off the main highway onto a short road leading up to the tracks which was still paved with bricks... The road carried on for a short distance on the other side before it dead-ended.

#29 B Squared

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 21:18

"Is the "official" circuit name The Indianapolis Motor Speedway, or the Hoosier Raceway, as the documants given to me at the first GP there, says both!"

"There was a Hoosier Motor Speedway in the twenties, but that was a totally different track!"

From a good & reliable source at the Speedway, "The Indianapolis Motor Speedway" has been the official name since day one of its existence 100 years ago, & that there are no Speedway documents with any name but that. He confirmed (and was surprised that anyone knew of this! :up: Michael!) that the "Hoosier Motor Speedway" was a 1/2 mile dirt track on the north east side until, he thought, 1930.

Brian

#30 B Squared

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 23:02

Posted Image

A friend gave me this old photo his late father had taken in, according to him, 1948 or '49. The Pat Clancy 6) wheeler on the much discussed bricks going by the iconic original Pagoda. I know the image is rather rough, sorry.

Posted Image
photo:B2 Design

The Bombardier "Pagoda". The original is said to have been the inspiration for the Tower which was the centerpiece of the rework to welcome & accomodate Formula 1 in 2000.

Brian

#31 fines

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 00:14

Originally posted by B Squared
A friend gave me this old photo his late father had taken in, according to him, 1948 or '49. The Pat Clancy 6) wheeler on the much discussed bricks going by the iconic original Pagoda.

It's not the original Pagoda, it's the second. The first had one storey less, and burned down in 1925.;)

#32 B Squared

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 00:20

Of course, you are correct Michael :o Did you see post 29, which should clear up the original question posed on this thread by f1steveuk? My contact was strong in his conviction of the matter. I'm curious to see f1steveuk's document to see what brought his question on.

Brian

#33 fines

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 10:09

So am I! As already indicated, I know nothing of a "Hoosier Raceway". But, of course, the "Indianapolis Motor Speedway" is a Hoosier raceway, the same as "Winchester Speedway", "Terre Haute Action Track" etc. etc. are!;)

#34 Bryce Armstrong

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 21:26

Was the banking higher before it was paved? It looks like it from the old movies.

#35 B Squared

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 21:38

"Was the banking higher before it was paved? It looks like it from the old movies."

From everything I've ever read, seen, or heard: It's been 9) degrees from when it was first layed out to present day.

Brian

#36 Buford

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 22:03

Back in the 30s track maintenance was so poor during the Depression the walls in the turns had deteriorated and laid back so as to form a ramp on the outsides of the turns. Cars who hit the wall in places just launched right over. Photos of those days with the laid back ramp walls make it look like the banking was taller than it was.

#37 stevewf1

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 01:37

I remember reading in one of the Indianapolis newspapers about 10 or so years ago where some students from Purdue surveyed the oval. They found that each of the four turns had a very slight difference in length and radius. They also found that the north end (turns 3 & 4) of the track was about 3 feet lower in elevation that the south end of the track. Don't remember them saying anything about the banking.

#38 fines

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 09:51

Up until the thirties (don't recall the exact year), there was an outer "lip" on the curves that was much more steeply banked. I forget the actual figures, but it was something like ten feet wide, and sophistically engineered, i.e. easing in and out over a fair distance - the details are in the "Indianapolis 500 History" book, and also in the "Indy before the 500", also a bit in the latest Donaldson tome. It was removed when the curves were paved, and/or the in- and outside walls reconfigured.

Steve, are you sure about the elevation, cause I was sure the start/finish straight was slightly downhill... :confused:

#39 f1steveuk

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 11:01

Originally posted by B Squared
Of course, you are correct Michael :o Did you see post 29, which should clear up the original question posed on this thread by f1steveuk? My contact was strong in his conviction of the matter. I'm curious to see f1steveuk's document to see what brought his question on.

Brian


I'm curious to dig them out myself now! I get home Dec 12th, and my first job (after cutting the fire wood !!!) will be to dig these out and post!!!

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#40 B Squared

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 11:28

f1steveuk - Thanks, I'll look forward to it. If these documents do indeed have that verbiage on them, there will be a very shocked Speedway official. I'm only 100 miles north of the facility and would be more than happy to get to the root of this anomaly, if there is one. In fact, it could be rather fun to present the Speedway with something they are not aware of! Really, I need no excuse to go there. If I'm in Indianapolis for ANY reason, I'm making a "pilgramage" to the Speedway. Many girlfriends over the years have gotten P.O.ed over this - I just have to go by & visit for a few minutes when in town. My dear Mother wasn't too happy with my Dad for the very same reason just last weekend. My nephew, Derek, is a drummer & was in the State High School Marching Band Championships at Lucas Oil Stadium. Dad had to go visit at IMS first. I've been incredibly fortunate to grow up with all the history of that storied track in my "backyard." Safe travels and thanks again.

Brian

#41 McGuire

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 12:00

Hoosier Motor Speedway was a totally separate facility at Pendleton Pike (Mass. Ave.) and 38th Street, about 10 miles east-northeast of the Speedway. In the '20s, when the half-mile dirt oval was in operation, it would be at the eastern outskirts of the city, just as IMS was on the western outskirts. In fact, it is at at 38th St. that Mass. Ave becomes the Pendleton Pike. Nowadays both addresses are well in town (although IMS is officially in Speedway, a town incorporated in the '20s but now completely surrounded by the city of Indianapolis).

The term Hoosier has been around since before the Civil War. I have to believe that in the modern material, the term "Hoosier raceway" was probably used as a placeholder in a sentence, not as an alternate title for the Speedway. Either that or copywriters are inventing things from whole cloth.

#42 lanciaman

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 12:53

Originally posted by Joe Bosworth
As one who received my university education at that fine institution one hour north of Indy on Route 51 as it was then known.

The school was then renowned for the lack of quality for the most part on behalf of the few of the fairer sex that strayed into the campus.

As we used to say, the Hoosiers send their hogs to the market and their pigs to Purdue.


Having attended Indiana University as did my wife, we wisely sent our children to Purdue, where they received superior educations. Purdue is nationally ranked second only to MIT in its reputation for engineering education and my 6-foot green eyed Purdue alum daughter is a beauty by any standard. You, Mr. Bosworth, are a cad.

Buford, your wicked pursuits brought you The Racing State, chasing fast women and faster cars and having, perhaps, modest success with both. Or not.

Lets have no more mean comments about Hoosiers or Purdue, or I will have to demand satisfaction. Now I am off to Dunkin Donuts for solace.

#43 lanciaman

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 13:00

Originally posted by stevewf1
I remember reading in one of the Indianapolis newspapers about 10 or so years ago where some students from Purdue surveyed the oval. They found that each of the four turns had a very slight difference in length and radius. They also found that the north end (turns 3 & 4) of the track was about 3 feet lower in elevation that the south end of the track. Don't remember them saying anything about the banking.


The four turns are famously different. Wind, radius, light, etc. require that each be driven differently.

#44 lanciaman

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 13:07

Originally posted by McGuire
Hoosier Motor Speedway was a totally separate facility at Pendleton Pike (Mass. Ave.) and 38th Street, about 10 miles east-northeast of the Speedway. In the '20s, when the half-mile dirt oval was in operation, it would be at the eastern outskirts of the city, just as IMS was on the western outskirts. In fact, it is at at 38th St. that Mass. Ave becomes the Pendleton Pike. Nowadays both addresses are well in town (although IMS is officially in Speedway, a town incorporated in the '20s but now completely surrounded by the city of Indianapolis).

The term Hoosier has been around since before the Civil War. I have to believe that in the modern material, the term "Hoosier raceway" was probably used as a placeholder in a sentence, not as an alternate title for the Speedway. Either that or copywriters are inventing things from whole cloth.


I have never heard the term Hoosier Speedway. When I worked for Indianapolis Raceway Park (now known as O'Reilly Raceway Park, but not by me, as "ORP" sounds like a beer belch), we sometimes were confused with The Big Track several miles east of us.

My favorite origin of the term "Hoosier" is this:
In the early days of Indiana settlement, there were many rough and tumble backwoods taverns, where evening disputes were settled with fists, teeth and knives. The next morning the tavern keeper would clean up the mess amongst the hungover aand battered patrons, and holding up a piece of disconnected tissue, would ask, "Whose ear?"

#45 fines

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 13:15

Originally posted by lanciaman
I have never heard the term Hoosier Speedway. When I worked for Indianapolis Raceway Park (now known as O'Reilly Raceway Park, but not by me, as "ORP" sounds like a beer belch),

:lol: :up: It's IRP, and always will be! Wait till they rename the IMS the "McDonalds Motor Speedway"... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by lanciaman
My favorite origin of the term "Hoosier" is this:
In the early days of Indiana settlement, there were many rough and tumble backwoods taverns, where evening disputes were settled with fists, teeth and knives. The next morning the tavern keeper would clean up the mess amongst the hungover aand battered patrons, and holding up a piece of disconnected tissue, would ask, "Whose ear?"

:rotfl:

#46 ZOOOM

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 13:54

Just to clarify things....
Up in the big town of Chicago (180 miles north of Indy) we refer to those from Indiana as "hosers"....
ZOOOM

#47 lanciaman

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 14:03

Originally posted by ZOOOM
Just to clarify things....
Up in the big town of Chicago (180 miles north of Indy) we refer to those from Indiana as "hosers"....
ZOOOM


Yeah, well the Windy City got its name from the natives' overfondness for beans and franks, so we refer to those from Illinois as "gassers." And Chicagoans are "top gasssers." :cool:
Recess is almost over but there's time to pick on the kid from Cleveland....

#48 Russ Snyder

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 19:39

Originally posted by lanciaman


Yeah, well the Windy City got its name from the natives' overfondness for beans and franks, so we refer to those from Illinois as "gassers." And Chicagoans are "top gasssers." :cool:
Recess is almost over but there's time to pick on the kid from Cleveland....


Cleveland?

The mistake by the Lake?

Who else would build an 80,000 seat stadium right near Lake Erie and let it rot for years? I Know, the stadium was built during the depression and was supposed to entice the Olympics...but it was made out of steel (????) http://football.ball...ns/oldindex.htm and was subjected to horrid weather conditions..at least they have the r'r hall of fame.

here is a blurb about the speedway "With the original surface of crushed rock and tar proving to be disastrous at the opening motorcycle and automobile racing events in August 1909"....it broke up horribly in the summer heat during an August race that killed a driver/mechanic and spectators. Carl Fischer then decided to lay the 3.2 million bricks, and the rest is history.

#49 Bryce Armstrong

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 00:39

...at least they have the r'r hall of fame.

You mean the most horrendous hall of fame in the world designed by the worst architect of all time?

#50 Joe Bosworth

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 01:03

lanciaman

Needn't get your knickers in a knot.

I fully realise that I got an absolutely first class education from Purdue, as did my father and three sisters with a nephew starting.

I can't help the generally held belief by most at the time of my matriculation. :) Don't shoot the messenger.

Regards