Jump to content


Photo

1969 Porsche 917


  • Please log in to reply
197 replies to this topic

#1 andydolermo

andydolermo
  • Member

  • 78 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 08 November 2008 - 00:53

Hello to everybody! :)

I have a dilemma... in the 1969 Porsche 917K the back of the car was "close" of course... I mean... it was not like the 1970 917K with all the engine/gearbox visible from behind. But... what about the 1969 Kyalami car #9 (David Piper-Joseph Siffert - sponsored by Coca Cola)? Did the car had an opening on the back? I have an old 1:43 scale model which was made with a silver frame visible thru an opening on the back of the car but I couldn`t find a rear view picture of the real car either from Japan GP 1969 (car #14) or Hockenheim (car #2) or Kyalami itself.
Anybody could help?
THANKS!
Andy


Posted ImagePosted Image

Advertisement

#2 Carles Bosch

Carles Bosch
  • Member

  • 145 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 08 November 2008 - 07:22

This picture, from '69 Spa, comes from Ian Bamsey's 'Porsche 917 Kurz - Langheck - Spyder / The ultimate weapon':

Posted Image

If posting this image breaks the copyright rules, I'll delete the picture as soon as requested.



Carles.

#3 andydolermo

andydolermo
  • Member

  • 78 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 08 November 2008 - 14:30

Hello Carles....exactly... that was the early 917-69K... the tail is "closed". Was it modified for Hockenheim/Fujy/Kyalami 1969 as in the model I post picture?
THANKS... :wave:

#4 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,880 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 09 November 2008 - 21:50

Originally posted by andydolermo
Hello Carles....exactly... that was the early 917-69K... the tail is "closed". Was it modified for Hockenheim/Fuji/Kyalami 1969 as in the model I post picture?
THANKS... :wave:

The Fuji car tail was the same as the Zeltweg versions, Andy. The only other race of the car you look for was Hockenheim

Posted Image

#5 andydolermo

andydolermo
  • Member

  • 78 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 10 November 2008 - 23:10

Wow :clap: Thank You so so much Mike! Definately the tail was "covered" at Fuji then :) I know... later in October at the Hockenheim 300 the car had a weird looking "spoiler" on the back....maybe silver? This was a pretty unknown race and I don`t know if we will ever find a rearview picture of that car :rolleyes:
I post here a picture of the front
Take care,
Andy

Posted ImagePosted Image

#6 helioseism

helioseism
  • Member

  • 1,429 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 11 November 2008 - 02:16

The book "Sunset On Kyalami 1961-1971" has a photo of the start of the 1969 Nine-Hour on page 177. It shows the Porsche 917 No. 9 from the rear, and it clearly is open on the rear, just like your model, and in contrast to Spa and Fuji. By the way, the book states that the drivers were Piper and Attwood, not Piper and Siffert.

#7 Phigr7

Phigr7
  • Member

  • 99 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 11 November 2008 - 09:55

Originally posted by andydolermo
[B]Wow :clap: Thank You so so much Mike! Definately the tail was "covered" at Fuji then :) I know... later in October at the Hockenheim 300 the car had a weird looking "spoiler" on the back....maybe silver? This was a pretty unknown race and I don`t know if we will ever find a rearview picture of that car :rolleyes:
I post here a picture of the front
Take care,
Andy

Not a rear view but it may help.
Copyright unknow.
http://images.forum-... 69 2.JPG1..jpg

#8 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,880 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 11 November 2008 - 09:57

Originally posted by helioseism
The book "Sunset On Kyalami 1961-1971" has a photo of the start of the 1969 Nine-Hour on page 177. It shows the Porsche 917 No. 9 from the rear, and it clearly is open on the rear, just like your model

Frank :wave: That sounds amazing. Photos of the Kyalami car are so rare! Is there any possibility of a scan ? Can you e-mail me please?

#9 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,880 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 11 November 2008 - 10:06

Originally posted by Phigr7
Not a rear view but it may help.


Another rare photo & still a huge help as it shows the tail as an add on & at this stage apparently unpainted. Thanks Phigr7 :up:

If anyone would like to see Andy Dolermo's wonderful hand built models of these iconic cars, go here
http://www.dvamodels.../porsche917.htm

#10 PS30-SB

PS30-SB
  • Member

  • 219 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 11 November 2008 - 12:55

1969 Japan 'Grand Prix' at Fuji Speedway:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#11 andydolermo

andydolermo
  • Member

  • 78 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 11 November 2008 - 15:38

Thank You guys... the picture you posted were really amazing. Hockenheim 1969 race was shortened because I think someone got killed that day with a Porsche 911 and the race was run late and in miserable weather conditions (cold and foggy). It is great to see another picture of that car. The "spoiler" on the back looks a lot higher that what I thought. Wondering what color that was...it looks too dark to had been silver :confused:

It would be great to see that picture of the Kyalami car.. the book sounds very interesting too. Are there many color pictures on that book? There were so many beautiful cars that run that race... Lola T70, Ford GT40s and so on, not to mention Kyalami 1970 and 917 Piper`s 917s.

Take care,
Andy

#12 markpde

markpde
  • Member

  • 522 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 15 November 2008 - 00:12

Slightly off-topic, Andy, but I thought this might help for future reference:

http://www.interney....treialemans.JPG

It's a rear view of 917.003, a unique, 'specially streamlined' 917 which tested at the Le Mans trials and practiced at Spa but never raced (it carried the number 30 in practice but this was switched to 002 (the 917 in Carles' photo from Ian Bamsey's book) for the race (Carles' photo shows 002 with the number 31 in practice). 003 featured a smaller oil cooler intake in the nose (at Spa they even blanked off the NACA ducts), flared sills around the wheels and these weird lower fins - almost like a diffuser. Given that the side exhausts on the '69 cars were to create an entirely smooth underbody, you have to wonder what effect these lower fins had on the aerodynamic balance.

003 was entered for the '69 Nürburgring 1000kms but withdrawn, used for some PR work, then written off after being crashed testing at Nürburgring.

I have other photos of 003 which I could email you if you're interested, lots of other 917s too, but not the Piper 917 at Kyalami! Glad the other TNFers were able to help! :)

Mark

#13 lil'chris

lil'chris
  • Member

  • 512 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 15 November 2008 - 00:25

Originally posted by andydolermo
Thank You guys... the picture you posted were really amazing. Hockenheim 1969 race was shortened because I think someone got killed that day with a Porsche 911 and the race was run late and in miserable weather conditions (cold and foggy).


I guess this may have been the unfortunate driver

http://www.motorspor...hp?db=ct&n=3293

#14 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,880 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 15 November 2008 - 00:52

Originally posted by markpde
I have other photos of 003

Mark there's another rear photo of 003 at LM in the new French book "Sketches of Success" Have you seen it? Two long panels each side of the tail that project back supported by struts.
Also 003 had a slightly longer nose. You can see it in the famous 25 car line up, if you look at the area in front of the headlights & compare to #45 next to it, you'll spot the difference.

#15 markpde

markpde
  • Member

  • 522 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 16 November 2008 - 00:06

Originally posted by mfd

Mark there's another rear photo of 003 at LM in the new French book "Sketches of Success" Have you seen it? Two long panels each side of the tail that project back supported by struts.
Also 003 had a slightly longer nose. You can see it in the famous 25 car line up, if you look at the area in front of the headlights & compare to #45 next to it, you'll spot the difference.

Thanks, Mike, but I haven't seen it - too poor these days to afford books! Sounds interesting, though, especially about the struts, and I'd never noticed the nose was longer - but then, given what you do for a living, you have a good eye! 003 wasn't around long, but it was different to the rest.

Re. the famous 25 car line-up, I saw an interview years ago (albeit years after 1969), with someone like Rico Steinmann or Jurgen Barth, who confessed that some of the 917s further down the line had been slung together for inspection, to make the CSI deadline for homologation, by anyone who could hold a spanner - clerks, secretaries, office boys, tea ladies, whoever - and weren't fit to be driven around the yard, let alone around Le Mans, Spa, Nürburgring or anywhere else (I could be exaggerating somewhat, but I believe that's the jist of the story). Then after the CSI inspectors went away they were stripped down to chassis/body units and put in storage, to be built up properly as and when they were required to be used. Of course, most of the bodies were scrapped before the chassis were ever used.

David Piper's 917, 010, was the only one which really 'evolved' - in the next event after Kyalami, at Buenos Aires in January '70, it ran with the new '70 Kurz tail but the old '69 nose, with spoilers - a hybrid!

#16 andydolermo

andydolermo
  • Member

  • 78 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 16 November 2008 - 14:50

Right... after Buenos Aires the car -010 was sent to Daytona for the 24 hours where it was supposed to be driven by Tony Dean and Peter Gregg. Apparently it blew the engine on the first practice lap and not having a spare engine the car was withdrawn. There in a picture on the RSC (Racingsportscars) website of the Daytona car wearing #52 and still with the Kyalami paintscheme and body configuration. After this event chassis -010 was sent back to Stuttgart and rebuilt in 100% 1970 configuration.

#17 mikegtr

mikegtr
  • New Member

  • 26 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 16 November 2008 - 18:45

Right... after Buenos Aires the car -010 was sent to Daytona for the 24 hours where it was supposed to be driven by Tony Dean and Peter Gregg. Apparently it blew the engine on the first practice lap and not having a spare engine the car was withdrawn. There in a picture on the RSC (Racingsportscars) website of the Daytona car wearing #52 and still with the Kyalami paintscheme and body configuration. After this event chassis -010 was sent back to Stuttgart and rebuilt in 100% 1970 configuration.



Andy, not quiet true. The chassis -010 returned to Stuttgart for conversion but it retained the orginal fuel filler positions on the front wings and not behind the drivers door on all the 1970 built chassis. David Piper also converted his chassis so that he could use his old Ferrari wheels and modified the front of his chassis so he could remove the front bodywork which was not possible on the standard chassis.

Mike

#18 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,880 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 16 November 2008 - 23:15

Originally posted by mikegtr
The chassis -010 returned to Stuttgart for conversion but it retained the orginal fuel filler positions on the front wings and not behind the drivers door on all the 1970 built chassis. David Piper also converted his chassis so that he could use his old Ferrari wheels and modified the front of his chassis so he could remove the front bodywork which was not possible on the standard chassis.

Just by chance I came across this photo set on Flix of the Piper green version at RSIII. If you ask me it looks far from original...perhaps it's just a clone :confused:
Do you know the answer Mike?;)

#19 mikegtr

mikegtr
  • New Member

  • 26 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 17 November 2008 - 13:48

Just by chance I came across this photo set on Flix of the Piper green version at RSIII. If you ask me it looks far from original...perhaps it's just a clone http://www.flickr.co...57605071227436/



Mike, there has been a rumor for a while that Dave Piper had built a clone for #010 due to the value of chassis #010. Looking at the photos from Rennsport III the chassis does not look like a 38 year old chassis that must have 1000's of miles on it.
Mike

Advertisement

#20 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,880 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 17 November 2008 - 15:25

Originally posted by mikegtr
Mike, there has been a rumour for a while that Dave Piper had built a clone for #010 due to the value of chassis #010.;) Looking at the photos from Rennsport III the chassis does not look like a 38 year old chassis that must have 1000's of miles on it.

I'd heard that one too, Mike - The green car now looks restored in the US historic style.

#21 Macca

Macca
  • Member

  • 3,323 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 17 November 2008 - 19:25

'Octane' mag a few months ago had a feature on DP and his 917s...............featuring BOTH of his green cars  ;)


Paul M

#22 mikegtr

mikegtr
  • New Member

  • 26 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 17 November 2008 - 20:04

Mike, Have found a photo of Piper's car from Rennsport III which just about shows the Chassis plate and the #010. Link as follows on Pelicans Parts web site :-

http://www.pelicanpa...L/Page-3443.htm

The site has great photos of the following chassis:-

917-010 -Piper #80
917-016 -Gulf / Chris McAllister #2
917-018 - White Stoddard #7
917-019 - Martini / Collier #23
917-022 - Gulf / Jerry Seinfield #22
917-023 - Salzburg / Dr Julio Palmaz #23
917-026 - Gulf / Amalfi #22 - Not sure if it is a mock up chassis
917-027 - 16 cylinder Test Chassis
917-028 - Porsche 917PA #0
917-031 Shell / Amalfi #1
917-036 - #26 Bernard Couturier
917-042 - Martini LH #21
917-044 (043) Interesting to see that the chassis plate actually reads 917-044 (#3 Martini Long Tail)
917-053 - Martini #22
917/10-007 - Brumos #59
917/20-001 - Pink Pig #23
917/30-004 - Sunoco #6
917/30-006 - Bosch # 48

Mike

#23 andydolermo

andydolermo
  • Member

  • 78 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 17 November 2008 - 21:49

Mike:

the removable front bodywork was a modification that occurred later in 1970. The car, after Daytona, was fitted with "1970" body style which I mean was the configuration the privateers had delivered from Porsche in 1970 (AAW - Gesipa - Escuderia National, Zitro and so on). All those cars had dual fuel caps on front fenders, not single fuel cap on rear panel as Gulf Cars, Salzburg cars and 1971 Martini cars had. Jo Siffert run at Thuxton in March 1970 with chassis -010 (car painted white) then the car was painted orange and run Brands Hatch and Monza. At the following race in Fassberg David Piper had a shunt and badly damaged the front. At that point the "David Piper" modifications occurred. He install a removable front nose. It was a single piece, the center small "hood" all 917s have was deleted. Close to the windshield where the front nose was attached was fitted an aluminum stripe that run all the way to the rocker panels. In many occasion that part was left unpainted, in some other cases (Kyalami 1970, Gunston paintscheme) it was painted same color as the fiberglass body.
At that point also a aluminum sheet was fitted on the rear panel center valley, raising the center valley up. To solve the problem of rear view an hole was made on the roof and an extra mirror was fitted. The two small wings on the tail were removed and a single flap running all the way from right to left was added.
And of course Ferrari wheels were fitted, you are right.
Sorry for my not great english, to make my thoughts more clear I am putting a few pictures here I hope not to brake any copyright, if so I will immediately remove them.

Car #5 at Thruxton

Posted ImagePosted Image

Car #14 at Monza (standard nose)

Posted ImagePosted Image

Car damaged at Fassberg

Posted ImagePosted Image

Car #59 and car #3 with removable nose, raised tail and extra mirror on roof (polished aluminum stripe from rocker panel to rocker panel)

Posted ImagePosted Image

Posted ImagePosted Image

#24 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 17 November 2008 - 22:05

Originally posted by andydolermo
Mike:

the removable front bodywork was a modification that occurred later in 1970.
Posted ImagePosted Image

Ah, I see!;)

#25 markpde

markpde
  • Member

  • 522 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 18 November 2008 - 00:51

Originally posted by andydolermo
At that point the "David Piper" modifications occurred. He installed a removable front nose. It was a single piece, the center small "hood" all 917s have was deleted.

I've never noticed the missing centre panel, Andy - it's well seen you have the eye of a model maker! ;) The 917 in Mike's Rennsport photo has no centre panel in the nose. But there is a 'clone' - David Piper's two 917s were featured in an article in 'Octane' magazine a couple of years ago (sorry, can't find it just now - somebody's been tidying up, you know how it is - used to be able to rummage about on the floor to find stuff). Of course, the replica might also have no centre panel. As I recall, though, the replica's alloys were different - similar to 010's authentic Porsche alloys (as it now has), but the five spokes had a flat face, as opposed to being narrower at the front and flaring out at the back. But then, the wheels would be interchangeable, so even that's not conclusive.

At that point also an aluminum sheet was fitted on the rear panel center valley, raising the center valley up. To solve the problem of rear view a hole was made in the roof and an extra mirror was fitted. The two small wings on the tail were removed and a single flap running all the way from right to left was added.

Similar to the two Gulf 917s at Spa in 1970, then - except they lacked the mirror (until now, I'd always thought 025 - the Zitro 917, later sold to the Fittipaldis, was the only 917 with a roof-mounted mirror). Incredible that the scrutineers let them race - absolutely no rear visibility whatsoever! Often wondered if that had anything to do with this famous incident:

http://www.porsche91..._06EauRouge.JPG

(Barry 'Whizzo' Williams once suggested, semi-seriously, that motor racing would be safer without mirrors...)

#26 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,880 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 18 November 2008 - 02:14

Originally posted by mikegtr
917-042 - Martini LH #21
917-044 (043) Interesting to see that the chassis plate actually reads 917-044 (#3 Martini Long Tail)

I think the series 042 - 043 & 044 is very confusing, with 043 (1970) becoming a 71 longtail & then apparently back to 70 style, ( I read recently ) or was it really an unused 044 that was sold to Vasek Polak? Then sold to Symbolic Motors who changed it from white to Psycho blue, where it now lives in the Philadelphia museum as apparently 043...anyway, as I say confusing :confused: Just a shame there isn't a Gulf longtail...

#27 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,880 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 18 November 2008 - 02:33

The AAW car had a roof mounted mirror too.
Finally a question that puzzles me! Did the the yellow Psycho 021 have the centre valley filled in at Kyalami? As seen here with a perspex panel but at the French race
Posted Image
Sorry! copyright unknown

#28 andydolermo

andydolermo
  • Member

  • 78 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 18 November 2008 - 13:37

Yes Mike it did. The centre valley was filled for the Le Mans race. I guess that was a David Piper idea as David raced at the Le Mans in the Wihuri (AAW) car. Center valley was raised and extra mirror was mounted on roof too. The difference between Gulf Spa cars / David Piper car and AAW car is that the AAW center valley was raised less than the other cars, there still was a "gap" between the valley and the two tails. And the rear flaps on the AAW car were still two separate flaps one on right and one on left, not one sigle all the way thru.
The back of car #18 at Le Mans was painted black probably to cover the filler used to fill the center valley and give an "even" look. See the pictures I am enclosing? The funny story here is that some character had fun in modify the picture of car #18 and make it look like it had a standard 917 tail. But if you look close in the center valley (and SHELL ad on the pit wall) you see it was an altered picture :rolleyes:

Posted ImagePosted Image

Posted ImagePosted Image

At Le Mans in 1970 the car had an accident and was badly damaged. Chassis was sent to Stuttgart and I actually think they scrapped the original car and assemble a new chassis with the same plate #. First outing of the new car was at Norisring where it run like this:

Posted ImagePosted Image

Probably the rear panel was saved from the Le Mans accident as it looks like it.

After this race car was painted purple and green with the "hippy" paintscheme for Watkins Glen (#35) Hockenheim (#12) and Karlsokoga and the car still carried the raised tail and extra mirror:

Posted ImagePosted Image

Later in the season was painted yellow and red (same "hippy" or "psicadelique" paintscheme), still with the same body configuration, as in the car Mike posted from Paris 1000 Kms.

Hope this helps :)

Andy

#29 LOLE

LOLE
  • Member

  • 313 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 18 November 2008 - 15:13

One day, Kurt Ahrens asked Mr Ferdinand Piech why the Porsches 917 didn’t have a rear view mirror. The answer was: “ Ein Porsche wird nicht überholt!” ( One never overtakes a Porsche!)…
The original 012 chassis is now in Belgium and being restored. Each step of the restoration (car and engine) is photographed and the whole project plus the complete history of the car will be released in a book next year or later.
If anyone of you, Porsche fans, has anecdotes or stories to tell about this Porsche 917-012, or has some photographs, please let me know. I’ll forward them to the owner and writer.
There is a gap between the last race in Kyalami (1970 Siffert-Ahrens) and the reappearance of the car in Germany (Grossmann-street version). Can anyone help please?.
The car will most certain reappear on the circuits in it’s original delivery (psychedelic yellow-red) on which occasion, all former drivers (Piper, Larrousse, Ahrens…) will be invited

#30 LOLE

LOLE
  • Member

  • 313 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 18 November 2008 - 15:17

Finally a question that puzzles me! Did the the yellow Psycho 021 have the centre valley filled in at Kyalami? As seen here with a perspex panel but at the French race

The car had the same perspex panel in Kyalami. I have a picture of the car in Kyalami but with copyright. It will appear in the book on the 021 chassis...

#31 LOLE

LOLE
  • Member

  • 313 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 18 November 2008 - 15:24

In February 1969, during testing for the 24 Hrs race at Daytona, Kurt Ahrens had a rear right tyre burst on the banking after which the car had to be resent to Germany for repair (chassis number changed than from 012 to 021). Does anyone has photographs of this event?
Nice to know is that Kurt still has the wheel in his garden in which his wife has planted a rhododendron.

#32 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,880 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 18 November 2008 - 15:25

Originally posted by LOLE
The original 012 chassis is now in Belgium and being restored...If anyone of you, Porsche fans, has anecdotes or stories to tell about this Porsche 917-012...
The car will most certain reappear on the circuits in it’s original delivery (psychedelic yellow-red)

You mean 021, I think Carlos, so if this is restored to yellow, the wrongly coloured "purple" one disappears :clap:
Andy :wave: can you mail me the Hockenheim photo please?

#33 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,880 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 18 November 2008 - 15:33

Originally posted by LOLE
The car had the same perspex panel in Kyalami. I have a picture of the car in Kyalami but with copyright. It will appear in the book on the 021 chassis...

Carlos, it's just that a friend has been waiting to find this exact detail to build a 1:24 model of the Kyalami car. So if he can't wait for the book, then the French photo is OK for the pattern?

I remember when 021 was restored in the US they put the two old Papier Mache seats on eBay...

#34 David M. Kane

David M. Kane
  • Member

  • 5,398 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 18 November 2008 - 15:47

What photo number is the Chris McAllister 917? Any help much appreciated.

#35 mikegtr

mikegtr
  • New Member

  • 26 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 18 November 2008 - 16:29

What photo number is the Chris McAllister 917? Any help much appreciated.



Chris McAllister's Gulf chassis is 917-016, it normally carries race #2. Chassis was rebuilt by Gerry Sutterfield who bought the chassis from Porsche in 1976 and sold it tp Chris McAllister in 1998.

Mike

#36 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,880 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 18 November 2008 - 16:33

Originally posted by David M. Kane
What photo number is the Chris McAllister 917? Any help much appreciated.

Looks like 1175 & 76 1220-1-2 there might be more.

#37 andydolermo

andydolermo
  • Member

  • 78 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 18 November 2008 - 17:38

Hello:

I have a little confusion here... so maybe you can help? Original chassis -021 I think was sold from Porsche to Wihuri in time for the Monza 1000 Kms in April 1970, then the car race at Spa and practiced at Nurburgring, then Le Mans 24 Hours. There it was crashed during the night di David Piper. Sent to Stuttgart for repairs. But I think original -021 was not repaired and from the remains it was built another chassis in the mid seventies as a spyder "AAW" car (as kinnunen drove in 1971 interserie). Eventually the car was converted as a "K", painted white and registered for street use in the late seventies. In the nineties it was painted in purple and green and I think that was the car that Bobby Rahal owned in 2001-2002?

Original 917-012 was took to Daytona for testing in November 1969 (not February 1969, right LOLE? we are talking about the same event, right?) where it was badly damaged in the accident (so was Kurt Ahrens driving the car?). Car was returned to the factory and...uhmmm.... restored for Wihuri? So should we call the hippy "Kurtz" car 917-012 or 021?

Anyway we call it I think that is the car that run Interserie in 1970 in psichedelique colors, green and purple first and yellow and red later. After Kyalami 1970 it was dismantled and parts of this car and parts of ex-Gulf 917-015 were used to built 917-01-021 which was the spyder car used by Wihuri in 1971 Interserie and driven by Leo Kinnunen. The remains of 917-012/021 where then sold to David Piper which rebuilt it in time for Kyalami 1971 where he run with 2-car team. Both cars where painted in Lucky Strike colors and where car #3 and car #4. I believe chassis 010 was car # 3 as it had the removable nose with no central small hood (more room on the nose for a bigger Lucky Strike decal) and car #4 was -012/021 (standard nose and smaller Lucky Strike decal on nose).


Posted ImagePosted Image


Posted ImagePosted Image



I believe 917-012/021 was then repainted green and fitted with finned rear panel. Raced by Chris Craft in 1972 Interserie. First race was Norisring, car #3... it had braking problems and car was crashed with frontend damages. Car repaired and for the other 3 Interserie races it was fitted with a different font of #3 (more rounded) and with an extra rear mirror on the roof. At Norisring the rearview Mirror was on the right front fender.

I guess after the repairs due to the Norisring crash the car was driven at Salzburgring (or Brands Hatch? anybody can figure out which racetrack is it?) with a unpainted nose and carrying race number 16. I already start a thread on this car but was not able to figure out what kind of event was of which driver was driving it. I believe is just After Norisring because the car don`t have the extra mirror on roof that was added at the interserie race after Norisring.

Posted ImagePosted Image

The car kept the same look in following years (finned tail, extra mirror on roof), later on raced by Derek Bell at Donington in 1983 (color unknown) then sold to Rosso Bianco collection, painted yellow and red (but still with finned tail) and then white.

Any comments?

#38 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,880 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 18 November 2008 - 17:56

Originally posted by andydolermo
Any comments

Posted ImagePosted Image

Andy, that's definately Brands Hatch.

#39 andydolermo

andydolermo
  • Member

  • 78 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 18 November 2008 - 18:05

Thanks Mike... check you e-mail in 20 minutes :)

Advertisement

#40 mikegtr

mikegtr
  • New Member

  • 26 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 18 November 2008 - 18:05

The car kept the same look in following years (finned tail, extra mirror on roof), later on raced by Derek Bell at Donington in 1983 (color unknown) then sold to Rosso Bianco collection, painted yellow and red (but still with finned tail) and then white.



The chassis raced by Derek Bell was raced at the 1985 British Grand Prix Support Race and was painted Silver with polished alloy wheels with red painted spokes. Chassis was owned by Peter Norman and carried sponsership from Pete Norman Electronics Ltd and carried race #62

Mike

#41 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,880 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 18 November 2008 - 18:09

Originally posted by andydolermo
I have a little confusion here...Original chassis -021 I think was sold from Porsche - Any comments?

Exactly my understanding was 021 was rebuilt with frame 012 after the LM 70 crash.
So perhaps Lole can confirm the car being restored in Belgium is this car ie the ex Rahal, ex Barazi car?

#42 andydolermo

andydolermo
  • Member

  • 78 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 18 November 2008 - 18:46

Wow Mikegtr... it sounds great...silver with red wheels. So... let me understand it right... were the rims the standard 917 rims but instead of solid black they were polished aluminum in the round part and red in central 5 spokes?
Do you have a picture of it? I just have this one:
Posted ImagePosted Image

Thanks,
Andy

#43 mikegtr

mikegtr
  • New Member

  • 26 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 18 November 2008 - 19:53

Andy,

Will send you an email

#44 LOLE

LOLE
  • Member

  • 313 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 18 November 2008 - 22:22

Hello "mfd"
,
I don’t want to be childish nor do I want to have some trouble with the author of the book who has paid a lot of money for the copyright. So I cropped a detail of the picture so your friend can go on building his scale model. I hope I can help him also with the copy of the decal sheet in attachment…Succes in building this nice car!

Posted ImagePosted Image Posted Image

#45 LOLE

LOLE
  • Member

  • 313 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 18 November 2008 - 22:32

Correct mfd, it's the ex-Rahal car...

#46 markpde

markpde
  • Member

  • 522 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 18 November 2008 - 22:44

Posted ImagePosted Image

The photo is from a unique event held at Brands Hatch in August 1972 called the Rothmans 50,000 - a Formula Libre race, open to all-comers, featuring quite a few current F1 cars, but also cars from other categories, including this 917, entered by David Piper and driven by Chris Craft. The race was won by Emerson Fittipaldi's Lotus 72. The 917 failed to qualify; in fact, it ran only on the test day (when this photo must have been taken), and as it clearly wasn't going to be competitive, they took it off to the Interserie race at Keimola in Finland, the next round after Norisring, instead. Perhaps this experience led to the roof-mounted mirror being fitted?

#47 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,880 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 19 November 2008 - 00:14

Originally posted by LOLE
I don’t want to be childish nor do I want to have some trouble with the author of the book who has paid a lot of money for the copyright. So I cropped a detail of the picture so your friend can go on building his scale model. I hope I can help him also with the copy of the decal sheet in attachment…Success in building this nice car!

Thanks :wave: You're a star :up: It's easy to see why this has been overlooked & as I first thought it appears to be transparent.

#48 markpde

markpde
  • Member

  • 522 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 20 November 2008 - 00:34

Originally posted by mfd

I think the series 042 - 043 & 044 is very confusing, with 043 (1970) becoming a 71 longtail & then apparently back to 70 style, (I read recently) or was it really an unused 044 that was sold to Vasek Polak? Then sold to Symbolic Motors who changed it from white to Psycho blue, where it now lives in the Philadelphia museum as apparently 043...anyway, as I say confusing :confused: Just a shame there isn't a Gulf longtail...

Confusing, right enough, Mike! Even more so when you get to 045 - the Siffert/Bell 1971 Le Mans Gulf longtail, which resides at the Le Mans museum, but is liveried as 042 - the Elford/Larrousse Martini 917 longtail - while the real 042, correctly liveried, is in the Porsche Museum.

As for 043 (Kauhsen/Larrousse in 70, Rodriguez/Oliver in 71), its true fate is genuinely confusing, however it appears that sadly - unbelievably - it was stripped and scrapped by Porsche some time in the early 70s (Porsche's records evidently list it as scrapped). I believe 044 was a spare, unused chassis/body unit which was sold to Vasek Polak in 1975, who built a complete car up from his extensive store of 917 parts. It has essentially the 1970 Le Mans longtail body shape, but lacks the concave nose panel which featured on 042 and 043 (but not on 040 and 041, which also featured a different rear body section, had no rear aerofoil between the fins, and were both destroyed in testing). 044 also lacks the (transmission?) cooling scoops in the rear bodywork, and initially it even lacked the rear fins, let alone the aerofoil! After Polak died, Symbolic Motors purchased the 917 and, during restoration, found 'evidence' to suggest that the chassis was actually that of 043; they then re-liveried it and presented it as the 'hippie car' - 043's 1970 guise. Apparently, though, Fred Simone, 044's current owner, doesn't buy that - he knows exactly what he has, and it isn't 043. That’s what I’ve been told, anyway, by someone who knows a lot more than me (I was told more than I can post, actually). I suppose it's possible that some of 043 was used to build up 044, or that 043 was actually 044, or vice versa, but we'll probably never know. It's a sin if 043 was scrapped, though - IMHO the 1971 917 longtail was the greatest, most beautiful racing car in history - even John Wyer, not given to hyperbole, described it as 'a very remarkable car indeed' - from him, that was quite a compliment.

R.I.P. 043

http://962.com/regis...ANS_TEST_71.jpg

On the other hand...

http://www.rickcarey.....H 917-043.htm

#49 andydolermo

andydolermo
  • Member

  • 78 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 21 November 2008 - 16:05

I am getting spoiled here... thank to you guys I was able to solve at least 3 misteries about the 917s. I really appreciate your help.
Speacking of Porsche 917 with mirrors on roof... anybody knows which color the Fittipaldi car was painted? I have only b/w pictures of that car. I thought it was yellow... but what about the nose and rocker panels?


Posted ImagePosted Image

#50 mikegtr

mikegtr
  • New Member

  • 26 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 21 November 2008 - 19:05

Andy, The lower side sills were polished aluminium. Have sent you a photo.

Car was also practised with a large F1 rear wing attached and an extended front wing.

Mike