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IndyCar 2009 (merged)


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#501 B Squared

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 16:53

McGuire (via Slyder) & Keir - I certainly well aware of the dynamics involved regarding the Dreyer & Reinbold driver/ sponsorship situation - sorry for being deemed serious by a tongue in cheek remark. I've been around IndyCar racing 46) of my 51) years, can't quite imagine leaving it behind me now.

Brian

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#502 Slyder

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 17:33

Originally posted by McGuire


You think the series has any say in that decision? :confused:

Citgo is backing Milka, not Buddy. There is nothing the series can do about that except perhaps to park Milka, which is not going to help Buddy. If Dreyer-Reinbold had funding to run Buddy I am sure it would. We can bet that it has already been pointed out to Citgo that Buddy would do better in the car than Milka. (Who wouldn't?) However, Buddy is neither Venezuelan nor sporting an enormous rack, so there you are. If we are going to blame anything, perhaps it is Venezuelan nationalism and/or the latin obsession with breasts.


I understand the whole sponsorship thing Ok? I'm just simply venting at the blatant injustice that is about to happen here.

#503 aportinga

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 17:47

Originally posted by McGuire


You think the series has any say in that decision? :confused:


Awesome - even more tragic motions of CART carried out by the IRL...

Anyone care to comment about the owner of MIS stating that the IRL is out of the business of SuperSpeedways and will focus primarily on road/street venues such as Vancuvour, Houston and Cleveland....

More CART :up:

Now does someone want to tell me again why we needed to split the series to end up right where we left off in 1995?

#504 red stick

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 19:43

So, since we haven't looked in awhile, the current lineup is:

Confirmed, more or less:

(2) Penske -- Briscoe. Power. Castroneves.
(4) AGR -- Kanaan, Andretti, Mutoh, and Patrick
(2) TGCR -- Dixon and Franchitti
(1) NHL -- Rahal, perhaps Doornbos. Bourdais in a third car?
(1) Foyt -- Meira
(1) Panther -- Wheldon, rumors of a second.
(1) Vision -- Carpenter
(1) Luzco Dragon -- Matos
(1) Fisher -- Fisher; perhaps a RR specialist
(2) Dreyer and Reinbold -- Conway, and probably Duno.
(1) 3G -- Barrett
(1) HVM -- Viso?

Then:

(1) KV -- Moraes? Servia? Tracy?
(1) Conquest -- at least 1 (Tagliani?)
(1) Coyne -- always finds a way.
(1) Rahal/Letterman -- TBA, should find a sponsor for at least one car
(1) Beck -- have announced deal for one car
(1) Rubicon/PCM -- may run a limited schedule.

Anybody I've forgotten or overlooked?

#505 Jim Thurman

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 21:14

(In Strother Martin's voice) "I think we have a failure to communicate.."

To make it clear, I am NOT stating the loss of Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart led to the failure of CART, but pointing the fallacy (as Buford did) of those who insist it did...not to mention the conflict of interest of those disseminating this "information".

Buford brings up some great points here.

Originally posted by Buford
When younger fans criticize CART, and when those who have an agenda to apologize or smokescreen for the disaster of the IRL, for not seeing that Jeff Gordon was in one of the cars simply don't understand or want you to know that sanctioning bodies didn't do stuff like that.

So when somebody says CART let Jeff Gordon get away and should have known he was this potential hero and savior of the sport, they are saying something that had never been done by a sanctioning body before should have been done in that special case and everybody should have known something they never knew before that this kid was the one and should get a special boost or some damn crap whatever it is you're trying to claim.

Agreed, and yet that's what ESPN did - on air. They constantly called for this for Jeff and, worse yet, worked to create them (and did the same for Stewart later). All the worse when an on air announcer on ESPN was his manager at the time of this. That's a serious conflict of interest at best...at worst...

These weren't "younger fans" Bufe, these were veteran on air announcers and experienced writers (I can't call them "journalists") that were stating this the most. What of that then?

Bickford tried the same act in California before "taking his ball and leaving" (my quote). He wanted tracks to allow Jeff to race underage, an exception to be made for Jeff. He lobbied at the Western Promoters workshop. A couple of promoters bought into his pleas, but the rest held fast, citing insurance rules and stating that an exception couldn't be made for one person. The result?, the promoter who was most in favor of allowing Jeff scheduled races conflicting with the opposing tracks - after years of working together. What prompted this level of malice? (created by who?, over not getting one's way?...whose way?, Bickford's?). And, clearly it was a preview of what was to come...

Originally posted by Buford
He simply did not have the resume that impressed them in light of previous drivers of considerable skill in the things he had done who could not make the transition to Indy cars. Beyond that was still very young at a time when youth was not valued like it is today and let's face it he had a really goofy little mustache.


ESPN's announcers started on this with Gordon when he had one All-Star Sprint series win and one fast time in USAC Midgets to his credit. They started on it with Stewart when he made his first start on one of their telecasts, circling around behind the field in an old car (announcer gushing "He's the next Jeff Gordon"). Stewart's resume: a TQ Midget championship.

There were far more accomplished drivers that could have been touted...oh, that's right they did not have a financial stake in them.

I still recall the announcers angrily opening a show by saying (holding up and waving letters) "We get a lot of letters from people complaining we talk about Jeff Gordon too much, well it's not bragging if you can back it up." (in other words, if you don't like it, f--- you. It also contradicts their claims that fans were clamoring for Gordon at a higher level - something they've insisted and used as reasons calling for the IRL)

Originally posted by Buford
You can rewrite history all you want but you are wrong if you are trying to say CART should have done something to get Jeff Gordon in a car because of his sterling record he brought to them at the time he thought he was ready. How did they know? Why not Tyce Carlson, Dan Driden… why not me!!! Why not you, why not all kinds of drivers from all kinds of different racing series. How many other Jeff Gordons did they miss? We will never know because they picked who they picked and many of them were damn fine drivers too don't forget. Jeff Gordon was no more worthy at that particular time than 100 other drivers in America who didn't get CART rides either. There was only about 20 paid seats don't forget.

I'm not the one re-writing it Bufe, I'm trying to erase a wrongly written history. The rest, excellently written.

As to why?...the only obvious answer for Jeff is that it comes back to Bickford. The undue influence of some schmuck from Sacramento with no racing background (and a background that should be questioned) and the fact they he convinced many to go along with his plans.

For Stewart, it was just applying the tactics learned from Bickford and practiced on with Jeff. Unlike Jeff, Tony's father does not appear heavily involved in anything beyond simply getting his son started. Certainly not anything untoward.

The fact that CART owners didn't buy into it impresses the heck out of me. But see what came of them not going along with the program.

See the California incident above...notice a pattern? If not, it happened again and again and again. It's why I refer to Jeff as a "rolling chain letter". Help Bickford and Jeff, and you are rewarded...do not and face the consequences.

#506 Jim Thurman

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 22:07

Originally posted by McGuire
Meh. ESPN conspiracy stories are like CART conspiracy stories. If Gordon could be swayed to NASCAR instead of CART by sending him to Buck Baker's school, what does that tell us about the relative states of the two series?

Except the ESPN folks were heavily involved in spreading the CART stories. What does that say? :)

As far as Jeff being swayed by his course at Baker's school, well, that's what both he and Bickford claim. It's been one of the most consistent things said by a man terribly inconsistent in his stories. It has nothing to do with "the relative states of the two series", but where they found someone who bought into their crap. They obviously found people in NASCAR who would willingly go along with it. Something they obviously didn't find in Northern California Sprint Cars, Barber Saab, IMSA and CART.

Again, it's missing the point...a TV network paid for him to further his career (after the stepfather asked for the money). That's neither rumor or conspiracy. It's a fact. The distance between subject and coverage? Conflict of interest? And after not finding a spot in CART and the realization the same would happen to their beloved Tony, these same network personalities were at the forefront of an anti-CART crusade, culminating in the formation of the IRL. Yep, all coincidence.

Originally posted by McGuire
To me this whole Jeff Gordon thing is a red herring. The problem was not Jeff Gordon going to NASCAR; he is one driver. The problem was a shortage of American drivers in CART, and beyond that a shortage of marketable drivers. That is still the issue today.

I agree with that, but try telling that to those convinced otherwise by a media blitz or try telling that to those who created and disseminated it. They used it as a springboard and a platform for creating the IRL when Stewart came along. They could not have been louder.

I guess it depends on one's viewpoint whether NASCAR or the IRL killed CART. Which is not what I'm claiming here. But, the noise from that camp and a self-serving mythology clearly didn't help.

And, again, ask...why? Obviously to get Jeff and Tony to the top and gain from it, but why the negative campaigning after they'd succeeded in accomplishing the goal? What purpose did it serve?

#507 red stick

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 22:12

A number of IndyCar drivers are racing this weekend in the 24 Hours of Daytona. Anyone attending?

#508 pingu666

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 22:44

they need to keep the ovals tbh, the mix of road,street and oval is what makes the series great

#509 shaggy

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 00:45

Originally posted by McGuire


If we are going to blame anything, perhaps it is Venezuelan nationalism and/or the latin obsession with breasts.

That is plain wrong.
Pamela Sue Anderson should make it clear that it is not Latins who are obsessed with breasts.
At least, Milka is more pleasant than Pamela; so Latins are not just obsessed with breasts - a personality goes a long way, too.

But, then, again, the same people who follow TG are the same ones who follow Pamela. That SHOULD explain a lot. Sadly, it does.

shaggy

#510 Ricardo F1

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 01:39

Which brings us back on topic - any news of Danica and Penthouse?

#511 aportinga

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 02:23

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Which brings us back on topic - any news of Danica and Penthouse?


Awesome :up:

#512 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 03:39

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Which brings us back on topic - any news of Danica and Penthouse?


Not yet, give it a little while, instead you will have to settle for this...

“Shower,” the current front-runner for godaddy.com's superbowl ad, features Patrick in a shower with another woman...

Unfortunately, the irl missed the boat on this one, the other woman is a German babe, not Milka.

#513 McGuire

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 13:27

Originally posted by Jim Thurman


I agree with that, but try telling that to those convinced otherwise by a media blitz or try telling that to those who created and disseminated it. They used it as a springboard and a platform for creating the IRL when Stewart came along. They could not have been louder.

I guess it depends on one's viewpoint whether NASCAR or the IRL killed CART. Which is not what I'm claiming here. But, the noise from that camp and a self-serving mythology clearly didn't help.

And, again, ask...why? Obviously to get Jeff and Tony to the top and gain from it, but why the negative campaigning after they'd succeeded in accomplishing the goal? What purpose did it serve?


That's all stovetop league. Jeff Gordon has NOTHING to do with the creation of the IRL. The IRL was formed because OW racing is going to be controlled and directed by the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, just as it always has been.

CART was an historical anomaly created by the death of Tony Hulman and the loss of much of USAC's management in a plane crash. Without this lack of continuity in OW leadership CART never would have happened. Penske and Patrick would never have chosen direct confrontation with ruling authority. That is not their way. They are businessmen, not zealots. They saw a vacuum and stepped into it.

#514 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 14:10

Originally posted by McGuire



CART was an historical anomaly created by the death of Tony Hulman and the loss of much of USAC's management in a plane crash. Without this lack of continuity in OW leadership CART never would have happened. Penske and Patrick would never have chosen direct confrontation with ruling authority. That is not their way. They are businessmen, not zealots. They saw a vacuum and stepped into it.


Even before Hulman's death, the teams were clamoring for change, they were treated as serfs by USAC and ran for abysmal purses in very few crap locations. CART was well on it's way towards it's birth before Hulman died, the teams realized that there were tons of venues that were newly available to race on, and keep the gate money for themselves once the switch was made from roadsters to formula cars. USAC thought the sun only shined on them, and refused to budge virtually forcing the team owners hand into forming CART.
It's evident by now that a race series controlled and directed by IMS is a failure, if failure is defined by being revenue positive. Tony George is no Tony Hulman, and the irl is neither USAC nor CART.

#515 McGuire

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 14:28

Originally posted by Jim Thurman


I guess it depends on one's viewpoint whether NASCAR or the IRL killed CART.


CART killed CART. I was there, I saw it.

Is an open-wheel series that does not include the Indy 500 a viable business in the USA? If so, it could and should have survived if managed properly and there is not much NASCAR or IRL could do about it -- or would want to do about it. Contrary to message board lore, sanctioning bodies do not really sit around scheming how to put each other out of business. They have their own problems to deal with for the most part.

However, CART's history from 1978 to 2003 was marked by one major misstep after another. Where do we even start? No dark forces are required to explain the demise of CART/Champ Car. It all happened right out in the open.

#516 aportinga

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 14:59

Originally posted by McGuire

CART was an historical anomaly created by the death of Tony Hulman and the loss of much of USAC's management in a plane crash. Without this lack of continuity in OW leadership CART never would have happened. Penske and Patrick would never have chosen direct confrontation with ruling authority. That is not their way. They are businessmen, not zealots. They saw a vacuum and stepped into it.


Wow - just wow.

My sympathies for when Buford responds to this.

#517 aportinga

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 15:08

Originally posted by McGuire


CART killed CART. I was there, I saw it.

Is an open-wheel series that does not include the Indy 500 a viable business in the USA? If so, it could and should have survived if managed properly and there is not much NASCAR or IRL could do about it -- or would want to do about it. Contrary to message board lore, sanctioning bodies do not really sit around scheming how to put each other out of business. They have their own problems to deal with for the most part.

However, CART's history from 1978 to 2003 was marked by one major misstep after another. Where do we even start? No dark forces are required to explain the demise of CART/Champ Car. It all happened right out in the open.


You're not even attempting to be objective... The 500 meant something when it was surrounded by a viable and properly marketing series. The 500 today is worthless – and just another race. Its existence within the IRL has done nothing to build the series at all which makes your logic completely false. Shit it cannot even sustain the league... Ratings continue to go down along with attendance... More and moe the league is following in the very same footsteps that CART did in her last years and ChampCar had to do - such as spec engine/chassis/street races and going to some obscure network to play - yeah yeah the IRL gets paid - bullshit. Unless they get a series sponsor they will be paying for some of that air time.

In 2005 a SunSentenial Journalist stated in an interview that the league had spent $250,000,000.00 of Tony’s own money to support the league. While fanboys like you disputed this the league (Tony George) never denied this statement. Just last year Tony admitted that the league was not making a profit – after 12 years!!!

How the hell is that an interpretation of value which the 500 brings?

As far as the rest of your drivel… Everyone ****ed up! CART, Andrew Craig, Penske, Tony George and plenty more… To blame CART or call it an anomaly is lunacy! This sort of perspective belongs on Trackforum – not Atlas… The people here remember American OW as CART and enjoyed more so then any other version before and/or after (including ChampCar).

#518 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 15:27

Originally posted by McGuire


CART killed CART. I was there, I saw it.

And the irl immolates itself with unbelievably bad management. If it wasn't for TG puring untold millions into it yearly the series would have been tits up years ago.

I guess that just says that the US formula racing structure couldn't manage itself out of a paper bag, no matter who runs it.

#519 McGuire

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 16:00

Originally posted by aportinga


You're not even attempting to be objective... The 500 meant something when it was surrounded by a viable and properly marketing series. The 500 today is worthless – and just another race. Its existence within the IRL has done nothing to build the series at all which makes your logic completely false. Shit it cannot even sustain the league... Ratings continue to go down along with attendance... More and moe the league is following in the very same footsteps that CART did in her last years and ChampCar had to do - such as spec engine/chassis/street races and going to some obscure network to play - yeah yeah the IRL gets paid - bullshit. Unless they get a series sponsor they will be paying for some of that air time.


I can't even follow that reasoning. Tony George did not run CART into the ground. CART management did. There is no point to that whole "oh yeah, the other series was even worse because..." line of argument because it goes on forever without going anywhere. Each series had its own management.

Still it goes without saying that both series certainly did have an effect on the health of OW racing today. For example, it's not like Kalkhoven handed over to George a healthy and growing business when the two series "merged." The Champ Car World Series was in ruins, incapable of continuing -- as we know.

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#520 Keir

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 16:49

aportinga,

Every time I think I can leave in peace, I get dragged back by yet another moronic, sophmoric, ill advised, childish, uninformed piece of contrived tripe.

It's like watching a train wreck, I don't really want to post, but you crape hangers with all the great ideas and the revisionist history, it's, it's just too easy.

You try to be serious from time to time and then throw all your credibility out the window with yet another "preteen IQ" remark about Danica Patrick or Milka Duno, who BTW the last time anyone looked, were drivng racecars while you weren't.

Yeah, OW is in a bit of a pickle, but have you heard Penske complain? How about AGR ? How about anyone who is involved in the actual racing end of a racing business ????

Robin Miller goes on and on because somehow he must justify his job, he will never have any impact in what goes on in the IRL. But write about it he must, it's his job.

I wait, as the "bard" would put it, "With Baited Breath" for the latest diatribe laden assault ad nauseum.

#521 aportinga

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 16:55

Keir I have no problem with you. I just wonder why you continue to torture yourself in these treads by posting.

People think differently - share ideas and opinions and in regard to this topic you come off as though doing this - sharing ideas and opinions, is a joke and waste of time.

Who cares? We all have a better way - as you yourself stated we have no skin in the game, so take it as that - a grain of salt if you will.

Love
Snuggles

#522 aportinga

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 17:00

Originally posted by McGuire


I can't even follow that reasoning. Tony George did not run CART into the ground. CART management did. There is no point to that whole "oh yeah, the other series was even worse because..." line of argument because it goes on forever without going anywhere. Each series had its own management.

Still it goes without saying that both series certainly did have an effect on the health of OW racing today. For example, it's not like Kalkhoven handed over to George a healthy and growing business when the two series "merged." The Champ Car World Series was in ruins, incapable of continuing -- as we know.


I never said TG ran CART into the ground - in fact I clearly stated that they all ran OW into the shitter. Additionally I have always maintained that CART shot itself when it tried to become F1 and abandoned it's American roots.

I agree with everyting else - but will note that you changed your tune from blasting CART/ChampCar to now pointing out that "both series did have an effect on the health of OW racing".

#523 Keir

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 17:17

It isn't torture ! It's usually quite amusing. Like satan's puppetmaster.

We all have great ideas, we just don't have the money or influence to put any of them into play.

I ran my own race car and team and frankly, if I were in the shoes of folks like Roger Penske or Kim Green or Michael Andretti, I don't think I would be nearly as critical as some of you naysayers are every day on this forum. That's the single most curious thing about the negative responses. The people who spend their and their sponsors millions don't bitch.

As for sharing ideas, count the posts that really, REALLY do that. You won't be counting long. It's just my role here to point these things out.

BTW, I'm not a Tony George fan, but I will point out that he is the only one doing anything.

I am a Danica Patrick fan and a Kimi Raikkonen fan and a ALMS fan. Seb Vettel is starting to grow on me.
Tony Kannan is always fun to watch. Scott Speed should return to OW. All American drivers should get corporate help to stimulate their careers.

See, now that was sharing ideas !!

#524 red stick

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 17:29

Are any users of the Board residents of the Miami area and familiar with the scuttlebutt coming out of the federal courthouse? What news of the Castroneves trial, now a mere six weeks distant?

#525 pingu666

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 18:11

well IRL is pretty much the only game in town, as good or bad as it is, its all we got.

#526 aportinga

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 18:51

Originally posted by pingu666
well IRL is pretty much the only game in town, as good or bad as it is, its all we got.


I have 2 U10 girls indoor games on Saturdays and 1 on Sundays. Come Spring I have 1 game on Satuday and a travel game every Sunday :up:

;)

#527 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 22:58

Originally posted by Keir

I ran my own race car and team and frankly, if I were in the shoes of folks like Roger Penske or Kim Green or Michael Andretti, I don't think I would be nearly as critical as some of you naysayers are every day on this forum. That's the single most curious thing about the negative responses. The people who spend their and their sponsors millions don't bitch.


Nifty
Some of us here have just about the same background, but we don't put it in every post as you seem to.
I've been involved, or participated in, a huge amount of racing, starting with the oldest oval racing known to man,thorougbreds, at the ripe age of 12 and finished my career crewing on the fastest boats on the planet. I have spent more than enough years behind the ropes and on the road in one of the top 3 series in the US to know you are all wet when it comes to bitching. Every owner I've worked for bitched plenty about rules, tech, and whether so and so was cheating and the tech guys were looking the other way.
Sorry, Keir you come off around here as if we are all a buncha dummys because we have not raced or owned a car. I think you would be amazed at some of the pedigrees I've seen in just this thread. Get to know the posters before you write them all off, it makes you look silly.

#528 Option1

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 00:42

Originally posted by Keir
blah, blah, blah

I wait, as the "bard" would put it, "With Baited Breath" for the latest diatribe laden assault ad nauseum.

Except that Shakespeare didn't actually write that. If you're going to quote something at least quote it accurately. It's "... with bated breath."

Neil

#529 Keir

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 16:02

WOW, the sound of two brain cells rubbing together.

Option1 and whitewaterMk11, if you guys could find the time to re-read some of the posts here without upchucking, you would find I'm quite correct. And yeah, dummies usually use words like "Buncha".

Option!,

Never play stump the scholar with me, From Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice, comes the line "With bated breath and wispring humblenesse."

"Bated" there used in the olde English for "Abated".

I used the term "baited" for the quite correct "to bait" which you did like a salmon into the bear's jaw.

And yes, there is quite a pedigree here and there at Atlas, I just have the expectation that when one posts, one shows it. Now and again it's sadly lacking.

#530 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 16:05

Originally posted by Keir

And yes, there is quite a pedigree here and there at Atlas, I just have the expectation that when one posts, one shows it. Now and again it's sadly lacking.


especially when you post...
:rolleyes:

#531 Keir

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 16:37

Oh boy !!! A grammar school comeback !! Now that's showing some pedigree !!

#532 sblick

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 17:08

Someday I will be able to read a forum on Atlas about the IRL where people don't mention the past. Everyone argue and *itch it just ruins this forum. Get back on topic. "I have a dream" :mad:

#533 aportinga

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 17:12

Yeah as if you wouldn't bitch if F1 turned itself into Formula Palmer :rolleyes:

#534 Keir

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 17:18

Not to continue a tangent, F1 is getting mighty close, what with spec engines and snowplow front wings !

#535 Keir

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 17:19

Sorry,

..... and now back to the Tony George Admiration Society.

#536 aportinga

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 17:38

Originally posted by Keir
Not to continue a tangent, F1 is getting mighty close, what with spec engines and snowplow front wings !


Indeed!

#537 qwazy

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 19:26

Does anyone have a mock grid of the 2009 season? I remember someone doing a good list in the earlier pages.

#538 GhostR

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 01:12

Originally posted by qwazy
Does anyone have a mock grid of the 2009 season? I remember someone doing a good list in the earlier pages.


I'm shocked, someone in here actually wants to talk about 2009! :p

#539 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 02:01

Originally posted by GhostR


I'm shocked, someone in here actually wants to talk about 2009! :p

My post about Mike Conway got buried quickly :lol:

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#540 red stick

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 03:16

Originally posted by wewantourdarbyback
My post about Mike Conway got buried quickly :lol:


Buried but not ignored -- I incorporated it into my last list of who's racing for whom at post 504. :up:

This thread seems particularly susceptible to the web version of Gresham's Law. :down:

#541 aportinga

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 19:15

Funny thing is if you ran 2 parallel threads - one discussing good feeling 2009 IRL stuff and the other as usual you'd probably have 300 posts for the latter and the former would be buried somewhere on page 3.

#542 red stick

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 20:15

Originally posted by aportinga
Funny thing is if you ran 2 parallel threads - one discussing good feeling 2009 IRL stuff and the other as usual you'd probably have 300 posts for the latter and the former would be buried somewhere on page 3.


I'm up to the experiment.

Let's leave this one for those interested in the title subject, matters related to the 2009 IndyCar season. Feel free to start a "Tony George is Satan. Discuss" thread, or "The Rise and Faaaaaall of U.S. Open Wheel."

I can't imagine a better way to make everyone involved happy, and how many times do you get to do that?

#543 Jim Thurman

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 20:32

I'm sorry to have contributed so much to the topic drift (drift?...landslide or avalanche is more like it). It wasn't my intent, I simply replied to the thread where these items came up. It truly should have been separated out into another thread.

I'll leave without even tackling the amazing stuff McGuire left on the table and simply write that pointing out what actually happened does not make me pro-CART/anti-IRL. But, by having it thrown into that hopper, the very real issue gets obliterated. And I definitely didn't want to run it into the ground by having to re-iterate over and over again in replies. Sorry about that.

If anyone wants to start a separate thread or contact me about this, please feel free to.

So, apologies...and I leave you back to your thread (aportinga, let's see if you're proven correct :D )

#544 aportinga

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 21:27

Originally posted by red stick


I'm up to the experiment.

Let's leave this one for those interested in the title subject, matters related to the 2009 IndyCar season. Feel free to start a "Tony George is Satan. Discuss" thread, or "The Rise and Faaaaaall of U.S. Open Wheel."

I can't imagine a better way to make everyone involved happy, and how many times do you get to do that?


With all due respect I have to point out that 80 percent of the posts - perhaps more, fall the other direction. You'd be better served re-starting this thread all over and l asking the doom and gloomers to respectfully stay out.

#545 aportinga

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 21:28

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
I'm sorry to have contributed so much to the topic drift (drift?...landslide or avalanche is more like it). It wasn't my intent, I simply replied to the thread where these items came up. It truly should have been separated out into another thread.

I'll leave without even tackling the amazing stuff McGuire left on the table and simply write that pointing out what actually happened does not make me pro-CART/anti-IRL. But, by having it thrown into that hopper, the very real issue gets obliterated. And I definitely didn't want to run it into the ground by having to re-iterate over and over again in replies. Sorry about that.

If anyone wants to start a separate thread or contact me about this, please feel free to.

So, apologies...and I leave you back to your thread (aportinga, let's see if you're proven correct :D )


See I disagree - I think this thread has been pretty tame and welcome your comments.

#546 red stick

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 21:38

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
I'm sorry to have contributed so much to the topic drift (drift?...landslide or avalanche is more like it). It wasn't my intent, I simply replied to the thread where these items came up. It truly should have been separated out into another thread.

I'll leave without even tackling the amazing stuff McGuire left on the table and simply write that pointing out what actually happened does not make me pro-CART/anti-IRL. But, by having it thrown into that hopper, the very real issue gets obliterated. And I definitely didn't want to run it into the ground by having to re-iterate over and over again in replies. Sorry about that.

If anyone wants to start a separate thread or contact me about this, please feel free to.

So, apologies...and I leave you back to your thread (aportinga, let's see if you're proven correct :D )


No worries. It's certainly entertaining at times, just not very 2009. Thanks for your input. :D

#547 red stick

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 21:41

Originally posted by aportinga
With all due respect I have to point out that 80 percent of the posts - perhaps more, fall the other direction. You'd be better served re-starting this thread all over and l asking the doom and gloomers to respectfully stay out.


I'm not at all surprised, but I'm going to claim thread originator's privilege here.

Let's stick to a discussion of this year's IndyCar season.


You seem an engaging sort, if an occasionally indifferent speller, but your argument strikes me as a little too close to the classic legal joke about the kid who murders his parents, then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he's an orphan.  ;)

#548 Buford

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 07:11

Originally posted by aportinga


Wow - just wow.

My sympathies for when Buford responds to this.


I am not going to respond. He is a lying history rewriting Tony George boot licker and has been spreading that bullshit here for years. He is as big a con man joke as Coldheart and any of the other track forum weenies who were dead wrong about everything since 1996. They supported a concept that was a total failure, saw it morph into a bad clone of what it was supposed to "reform", and saw Indy Car racing decline from its all time peak of popularity in 80 years to near its all time low, for 50 years anyway. All because their Boy Tony George thought he knew better than the fans and sponsers what was exciting and good. Now they have to blame eveybody but theimelves and their failed hero, the Lord of the Sperm for the cesspool the sport has fallen into.

Now back to the topic - gee wiz IRL cars are neat and the pretty colors and zoom zoom sounds sure are cool aren't they? Discuss.

#549 qwazy

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 08:50

To be honest, I actually quite like getting a perspective on the things that happened before I had an interest in motorsport and American open-wheel racing. The stories and recollections, like the one about Jeff Gordon, are extremely interesting to me. As is seeing the different versions and perspectives.

But I also want to talk about what's happening now because we have a season coming up.


I'd rather keep all Indycar related threads into one, just maybe trim out some of the riff-raff arguments and whatnot. :]

#550 McGuire

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 12:45

Originally posted by Buford


I am not going to respond. He is a lying history rewriting Tony George boot licker and has been spreading that bullshit here for years. He is as big a con man joke as Coldheart and any of the other track forum weenies who were dead wrong about everything since 1996.


LOL, Buford is just pissed because he knows I have my facts exactly right and that I am telling it straight.

Tony Hulman died in October of 1977, while eight members of the USAC board were killed in a private plane crash on their way back from Trenton in April of 1978.

CART was founded by Roger Penske and Pat Patrick at Michigan International Speedway's annual company party in November 1978. Penske was the owner of MIS at that time, while Patrick lived just down the road in Jackson. The papers were drawn up by Penske's attorney John Frasco, who later became a CART president (although Patrick was the first president). The name CART came from the famous white paper written by Dan Gurney, which circulated in the summer of '78.

You can find all these facts in CART's own official commisioned history, CART: The First 20 Years 1979-1998, by Rick Shaffer. You can buy the book here: http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/1874557144

Know your open wheel history.