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IndyCar 2009 (merged)


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#551 Keir

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 16:47

..... and now, as if we really needed it, the Buford is Jesus, McGuire is Judas debate !!! :rolleyes:

Here are some "debaitable" (spelled for effect) topics.

USAC in the late 1970's was run by a bunch of mouth breathing, knuckle draggers who were leading OW into another ice age.

CART was run by a group of "Rich Boys Only" get to make the rules mafia, who wre leading OW into a vast endless desert without any water stops.

KK's ChampCar - words escape me but ..... mismanaged, misled, missed the mark by a country mile, come to mind.

Tony George now runs a slightly watered down product. Lots of holes to be filled. Which he does with his own nickle, which gives him the only say in the process.

So, in order; Mindless Mob. Rich Spoiled, Selfish Mob. Clown. Dictator Napoleon Style.

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#552 red stick

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 17:43

Originally posted by qwazy
To be honest, I actually quite like getting a perspective on the things that happened before I had an interest in motorsport and American open-wheel racing. The stories and recollections, like the one about Jeff Gordon, are extremely interesting to me. As is seeing the different versions and perspectives.

But I also want to talk about what's happening now because we have a season coming up.


I'd rather keep all Indycar related threads into one, just maybe trim out some of the riff-raff arguments and whatnot. :]


I think many, if not most, agree. Talking about IndyCar requires some context, and it's fun and educational to read the stories, particularly from members who were there and are willing to share their experiences. I've enjoyed reading Buford's stories about his racing days, and if you haven't wandered through the archives to read his stuff, do yourself a favor and try it. Brian (B Squared) continues to post, over at the IMS thread on TNF, some fascinating pictures from his collection taken at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway over the years that reveal an eye for detail and a great love of the sport.

I just wonder if some things aren't better left to the Nostalgia Forum, especially as the events of the early nineties fade farther into the past. I'm certain that, absent some new information or a fresh take on the demise of CART/founding of the IRL, I, for one, am just not that interested in re-reading the same "discussion" every two weeks or so, especially when it's more snark than substance. So when aportinga suggested a separate thread, that seemed an option, if he was serious, worth supporting.

I disagree that I and others who wish to read and write about the current state of IndyCar are only about "feel-good" stories and "pretty colors and zoom zoom sounds." There's plenty to criticize about the state of the sport. Not all of it requires a rehash of the events of 1993-95, especially one so predictable that TwoCents offered a fairly good description/parody a few months ago.

#553 Buford

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 19:05

Any discussion of current Indy Car has to comment on how bad it is and that quickly morphs into how it got that way. Anything else is no more than what low talent ride buyer will be in what car and what color is it since they are all spec cars with no innovation to discuss There is no discussion possible about engineering challenges or chassis or engine competition. What the hell is there to talk about? What driver did a homosexual themed shower scene commercial? Wait oh that's right we could talk about that... What brand of feminine hygiene spray 15% of the drivers use? Prison sentence options?

As long as history rewriting shills like McGuire want to try to con new fans into thinking Tony George did not take a sport that was at its all time peak of popularity and financial success and drive it into the toilet because of his own decision to take charge and change it to a concept that was a total marketplace failure, I will respond to that type of distortions of the actual reality. If he wants to comment on color schemes I will not bother you with facts of what really happened. I never commented on this thread until others brought my name up. Go back and look.

#554 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 19:20

I think the reason OW hasnt advanced is we're still arguing like it was the winter of 95/96. Even Hope and Virtue can't survive this chill.

#555 Buford

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 19:27

If the on track product was better than what we had, there would be no argument would there? The argument is because the IRL has been a full decade (plus) farce and total failure, and what we had before wasn't. The question is do we want to pay good money for what we see today? The vast majority of the fan base of 1995 says no. They are not arguing. They made their decision long ago. The IRL is not worthy of their interest or entertainment dollar. What we had prior to the tantrum at 16th and Georgetown was. The fact that some still try to justify this disaster as being worthwhile instead of probably the biggest wrongheaded decision in sports history and most inept concept change resulting in turning success to failure of all time, THAT causes the arguments.

#556 Keir

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 21:47

..... but to blame it all on Tony George ???

Who was running CART ??? What happened to them ???

Buford, You talk about rewriting history ???

Tony George picked up what Penske, Ganassi and company left up for grabs when they ceased giving a crap about their own sport ! Those good old CART boys are far more to blame for the current state of OW than Tony George could ever be. Those good old CART boys that you seem to hold all high and mighty, left their own series. You saw it, we all saw it.

So please with the homage to false gods. Those good old CART boys jumped the OW ship and climbed right in bed the the great satan, Tony George. You know it, I know it and you know that I know that you know that I know you know.

So get off the soap box, the air up there is getting mighty thin and it's making you dizzy, very dizzy.

#557 red stick

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 22:07

See, this is the kind of thing that fails the new information/fresh take test.

Everyone feels strongly. Not a bad thing. Could we at least try to generate more light than heat?

#558 Buford

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 00:48

Originally posted by Keir
..... but to blame it all on Tony George ???

Who was running CART ??? What happened to them ???

Buford, You talk about rewriting history ???

Tony George picked up what Penske, Ganassi and company left up for grabs when they ceased giving a crap about their own sport ! Those good old CART boys are far more to blame for the current state of OW than Tony George could ever be. Those good old CART boys that you seem to hold all high and mighty, left their own series. You saw it, we all saw it.

So please with the homage to false gods. Those good old CART boys jumped the OW ship and climbed right in bed the the great satan, Tony George. You know it, I know it and you know that I know that you know that I know you know.

So get off the soap box, the air up there is getting mighty thin and it's making you dizzy, very dizzy.


That was years later. I am talking about 1995 - unprecedented success in the history of the sport. One man decided he knew better and his plan after he grabbed power was a massive failure and left us with what we have today. Yes i blame Tony George (totally). The blame for any fight goes to he who started it, not to those who defended themselves, no matter how ineptly. If you are gonna destroy what is... you damn well better produce something better. Did he?

#559 Keir

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 15:16

Tony George didn't destroy or produce anything, OW evolved into what race team/track owner disinterest and greed turned it into. Tony George is still the only source of consistant dollars that goes into the series.

1995 and smoking guns aside.

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#560 Keir

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 15:51

Speaking of 1995, of the 20 odd teams that competed, less than six still compete today. The survivors, if you will, are the same holdouts from that fateful split who thought they could get the same sponsor interest from running the Michigan 500 that they got from the Indy 500 !!!!! Holy "who's a dope", Batman ???
No rewriting here folks, just a rich boys club who thought they had all the answers. THEY DIDN'T !!

Now take a look at IndyCar today. What does it most resemble ?? CART anyone ?? Rich boys club ??
Penske, AGR, Rahal, Haas - all that's missing is Pat Patrick. The only real reminder of OW past is AJ Foyt.

.... and let me say once again, The only person putting money into this IndyCar series is Tony George.

Oh and BTW, take a good look at the driver lineup in 1995 and tell me who of the current owners could afford to pay any of them !!!

#561 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 17:14

Originally posted by Keir

Oh and BTW, take a good look at the driver lineup in 1995 and tell me who of the current owners could afford to pay any of them !!!


Better yet, you take a look at 1995 and tell us how many cars, or drivers for that matter, were funded by the sanctioning body.
You are totally are missing the point, in 1995 CART did not not have to fund anything, since FTG has run the show, it's nearly all funded by him and ims.]
Damn right it's TG's money, and it's the only reason there is a series.
That wasn't the case before he had visions.
The teams of the former league were funded by a plethora of Series titles, Race titles, sponsors and manufacturers, all of which are missing today.

#562 Risil

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 17:30

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII


Better yet, you take a look at 1995 and tell us how many cars, or drivers for that matter, were funded by the sanctioning body.
You are totally are missing the point, in 1995 CART did not not have to fund anything, since FTG has run the show, it's nearly all funded by him and ims.]
Damn right it's TG's money, and it's the only reason there is a series.
That wasn't the case before he had visions.
The teams of the former league were funded by a plethora of Series titles, Race titles, sponsors and manufacturers, all of which are missing today.


How many of those sponsors are either defunct or legally barred from participating, though? The Marlboro Pole Challenge, Player's Forsythe, and Mauricio Gugelmin are relics of the past. If the 'new money' found NASCAR more suited to their less sexy goals, then that helps explain the decline of open-wheel racing across the board.

#563 aportinga

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 17:38

Originally posted by Keir
Speaking of 1995, of the 20 odd teams that competed, less than six still compete today. The survivors, if you will, are the same holdouts from that fateful split who thought they could get the same sponsor interest from running the Michigan 500 that they got from the Indy 500 !!!!! Holy "who's a dope", Batman ???
No rewriting here folks, just a rich boys club who thought they had all the answers. THEY DIDN'T !!

Now take a look at IndyCar today. What does it most resemble ?? CART anyone ?? Rich boys club ??
Penske, AGR, Rahal, Haas - all that's missing is Pat Patrick. The only real reminder of OW past is AJ Foyt.

.... and let me say once again, The only person putting money into this IndyCar series is Tony George.

Oh and BTW, take a good look at the driver lineup in 1995 and tell me who of the current owners could afford to pay any of them !!!


Had the right people been involved the US500 would have been on par with the Indy500.

#564 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 17:46

I don't think it would have been any bigger than any non-Indianapolis oval race. Michigan was always a fairly popular event.

#565 Keir

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 18:55

Who are these "right people' ???

In the last bunch of posts, it seems the REAL decline of OW has REALLY come out and it wasn't Tony George

That point I supposedly missed ?? What is missing ??? Who's not around anymore ????

Boys, you go on and on and on and on, but it takes a gazillion posts before you get it.

1995 2009 Fill in the billion dollar blanks.

#566 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 21:58

Originally posted by Keir

In the last bunch of posts, it seems the REAL decline of OW has REALLY come out and it wasn't Tony George


Nice deflection, but then again the chances of you answering anything directly rated about zero anyway.
I am surprised however we didn't get the 'Back when I was a car owner....' drivel

#567 McGuire

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 22:52

Originally posted by aportinga


Had the right people been involved the US500 would have been on par with the Indy500.


Who would that be? CART's best and brightest put together the event.

Even if the execution had been perfect (which it wasn't) MIS had less than half the capacity of the Speedway. First they would need to double the number of seats before even thinking about being "on par" with the Indy 500.

The main thing the US 500 did was cannibalize the Detroit GP and the traditional MIS CART event. Three races in 12 weeks -- CART had to pull in all its markers and deep discount to draw corporate hospitality, and then paper the house to get the near-sellout that would supposedly prove their point. It wounded the Detroit market for years. There was one U.S. 500 and that was enough.

To me, the US 500 was a blunder on equal scale with the IRL's 25/8 rule. It was an infantile reaction to a grown-up problem. Putting on their own race on the same day in a next-door market? Why? To teach father a lesson? 500 miles? Three-abreast start? Hmm, what are we acting out here? In going head-to-head with the Indy 500, CART mainly proved that it was not the Indy 500. CART should have focused on its own business and charted its own path. Penske has said that supporting and hosting the US 500 was one of the greatest mistakes of his career. And he ought to know.

#568 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 22:55

Originally posted by Risil


How many of those sponsors are either defunct or legally barred from participating, though?

Looks like 6 cars that were affected by Tobacco.
(As an aside, I don't believe banning tobacco has had any effect at all on consumption, I may be wrong...)

AJ Foyt-1Copenhagen-Eddie Cheever
Penske-2 Marlboro-Unser,Jr./E. Fittipaldi
Walker-1 Marlboro-C. Fittipaldi
PacWest-1 Hollywood-M. Gugelmin
Team Green-1 Players-J. Villenueve

All the rest of the sponsors I believe are still extant, or have been absorbed into larger corporations.

1995 CART Teams/Season

#569 Risil

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 23:19

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII

Looks like 6 cars.
AJ Foyt-1Copenhagen-Eddie Cheever
Penske-2 Marlboro-Unser,Jr./E. Fittipaldi
Walker-1 Marlboro-C. Fittipaldi
PacWest-1 Hollywood-M. Gugelmin
Team Green-1 Players-J. Villenueve

All the rest of the sponsors I believe are still extant, or have been absorbed into larger corporations.

1995 CART Teams/Season


And Kmart, although Newman-Haas seemed loaded around that time. Pruett's funding, IIRC, came from the Firestone tyre development programme, too. Also I don't believe Pennzoil is in a position to sponsor American OW racing at present?

With the exception of Christian Fittipaldi, though, I think all of those drivers either won or nearly won races that year, so these are well-funded operations that would likely be squeezed out. Undoubtedly a couple of cigarette companies could've found the money to run Wilson, Bourdais, Power and Hunter-Reay.

#570 McGuire

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 23:22

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII


Better yet, you take a look at 1995 and tell us how many cars, or drivers for that matter, were funded by the sanctioning body.


Pretty much all of them. Team owners = sanctioning body owners. Same people. Was this a trick question? :D

#571 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 00:23

Originally posted by McGuire


Pretty much all of them. Team owners = sanctioning body owners. Same people. Was this a trick question? :D


Cute
:rolleyes:
Not a trick question, just one that every ims apologist always finds a dodge for....

#572 Keir

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 00:25

Dull water,

It's only drivel when you aren't and speak like you are. Again, that lack of pedigree on your part. :p

#573 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 00:25

Originally posted by Risil


And Kmart, although Newman-Haas seemed loaded around that time. Pruett's funding, IIRC, came from the Firestone tyre development programme, too. Also I don't believe Pennzoil is in a position to sponsor American OW racing at present?


Yeah, I wonder what K-mart brought to the table, N-H was also sporting Texaco and Budweiser colors in those days.

#574 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 00:28

Originally posted by Keir
Dull water,


:rotfl:

#575 Keir

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 01:05

Humor is a wonderfull thing, we can always agree to disagree without pistols at 10 paces.

Pedigree, you know. :smoking:

#576 Slyder

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 04:22

Originally posted by aportinga


Had the right people been involved the US500 would have been on par with the Indy500.


Sorry, but that's bullshit. You can't replace 90+ years of tradition by wiping off the slate and start from scratch.

Both Indy 500 and US 500 of 1996 were farcical races that pretty much placed a big nasty dent on the OW racing scene that took a long time to heal.

#577 B Squared

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:55

I've a tape of the 1996 Indy 500 in my collection, I've still never been able to bring myself to watch it. I had followed the CART boys to Michigan, the rest of my family went to Indy. Dad did his first "500" in 1957 and was in favor of the CART side in this initial split, but he and my brother couldn't imagine being anywhere else that day. I went to the US 500. No regrets that I did so, but there was an emptiness that day. It just didn't feel "right".

"placed a big nasty dent on the OW racing scene that took a long time to heal." Slyder

I think it's fairly evident from the vitriol that still surrounds this issue that healing still has a long way to go. Unfortunately, I think that it never will until the generation that saw & experienced the rancor are dead and buried.

Mark (red stick) - Thank you for your kind & gracious comments in post 552.

Brian

#578 EVL29

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 13:10

Originally posted by McGuire


Penske has said that supporting and hosting the US 500 was one of the greatest mistakes of his career.



Said by Penske in late 2001,at about the same time he announced he was going to the crapwagons.

Coincidence I'm sure.

#579 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 13:14

Timing doesn't really matter, he didn't throw a fit and decide to dick CART, it was no longer financially viable for him. People always piss and moan about 'loyalty' but these guys have to look out for their teams first.

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#580 Risil

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 13:50

Originally posted by McGuire

500 miles? Three-abreast start? Hmm, what are we acting out here?


The 1995 Marlboro 500 of course had both those features (plus Parker Johnstone leading on a superspeedway, which was pretty rad). Although I don't doubt at all that such posturing helped strengthen Tony George's resolve, even before the IRL's grand opening.

#581 aportinga

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 14:12

Originally posted by Slyder


Sorry, but that's bullshit. You can't replace 90+ years of tradition by wiping off the slate and start from scratch.

Both Indy 500 and US 500 of 1996 were farcical races that pretty much placed a big nasty dent on the OW racing scene that took a long time to heal.


1. I am not saying you can. I was merely pointing out that had CART had the likes of someone such as Brian France in mind they most likely would have kept the race at MIS instead of moving and same said for the date. Moving these two made the race a farce and was just another nail in CARTs coffin as far as I am concerned.

2. My entire point in my comment was to show how far Indy has slipped in 13 years and how easily it could have been equal to or bested by another competing 500 race.

#582 aportinga

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 14:14

Originally posted by EVL29



Said by Penske in late 2001,at about the same time he announced he was going to the crapwagons.

Coincidence I'm sure.


Legal Marlboro correspondent to Penske and back clearly stipulate that Marlboro wanted to be at Indy. That was all it took for Penske.

Also recall when sponsors such as KMart were up in arms over CART's leaderships desire to emulate F1 - claiming they had no interest to market in Europe. There were quite a few of "those" types of sponsors back then.

Again - complete disregard for the core - venues, sponsors and fans.

#583 Dudley

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 16:10

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Timing doesn't really matter, he didn't throw a fit and decide to dick CART, it was no longer financially viable for him. People always piss and moan about 'loyalty' but these guys have to look out for their teams first.


And of course we still have a strong Penske. We don't have PacWest, we barely have Walker and Forsythe...etc etc.

#584 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 16:14

Forsythe and McCaw did eventually get pissed off and take their ball away. In both cases they had enough money to fund out of pocket but were hacked off with the respective sanctioning bodies. PacWest wasn't happy with CART, Forsythe didn't want to do IRL.

Even at their peak, they didn't have 'real' sponsors. Forsythe was on a tobacco subsidy and PacWest was tobacco and later B2B deals via his Telecom empire. So that's where Motorola(until they went to Andretti) and Nextel came from.

Walker had Valvoline for a while, but never really replaced them after they and de Ferran left. It didn't help that at the same time it went to a spec tire so he was no longer the Goodyear development team. But I'd say a Walker is a good bellwhether for the health of a series. A place like Newman-Haas flatters to deceive because their sponsor guy is a freaking magic man.

#585 Dudley

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 16:17

And yet even he could only fund one car last year...

#586 Tmeranda

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 16:23

As a real CART fan I went to the US500 instead of Indy. I can remember all the CART pit crews watching the Indy 500 on TV! Shows where their hearts really were.

#587 McGuire

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 16:33

Originally posted by EVL29



Said by Penske in late 2001,at about the same time he announced he was going to the crapwagons.

Coincidence I'm sure.


RP said it in July of 2001 at MIS, when CART dropped the MIS date. I know this because he said it to me, and I reported it in AutoWeek, where I worked at the time. Penske was incensed that CART would turn its back on the track where CART was essentially founded and which had hosted the US 500. A lot of people don't know this but the Penske family spent a good part of their summers at MIS. He kept his car collection there and his sons mowed the fields. Penske was house-proud of MIS even after he sold it.

By then he was also disgusted with the direction the CART board had taken and especially with Joe Heitzler, who he privately regarded as an idiot. The hot rumor of the year was confirmed at the end of the season when he announced the switch to IRL full-time. In 2001, Penske ran a full season of CART along with the Phoenix and Indy IRL events. De Ferran won the CART title while Castroneves won the Indy 500.

One more event illustrative of what things were like in '01: Harrah's came in as the title sponsor of that final MIS CART event -- the first and last time it sponsored a CART race. If you recall, at that time Harrah's was also a major sponsor of AJ Foyt's IRL team. I sat in a hospitality tent and watched and listened as two CART officials browbeat and lectured the Harrah's CEO for sponsoring an IRL team, while the poor man sat there staring at the doorway looking for an escape. I am not making this up. To this day it was one of the most unprofessional and chickenshit acts I have seen in motorsports. CART really was the most arrogant racing series on earth.

Something else a lot of people don't know about 2001: the Team Penske drivers, Gil de Ferran and Helio Castroneves, did not participate in the famous Texas drivers' meeting that led to the CART race cancellation there. When asked about the race all either of them would say is "No comment. All we can say is we were ready to race."

Penske's growing disillusionment with the series he co-founded goes back further than 2001, however. In 1996 he personally brokered a compromise deal with Tony George to start 42 cars in the Indy 500, but the board voted to run the US 500 instead -- at his track. He was totally opposed to the IPO in 1998, and seeing the handwriting on the wall, divested his MPH shares as soon as he could legally and then sold his tracks -- at that time he owned MIS, Fontana, Nazareth, and was part-owner of Rockingham -- to ISC.

It is interesting to me that so many CART-weenies like to Hate on Penske. Without him the series would never exist in the first place. To me, there are some CART fans who are just as insufferably arrogant as the series was. Even now -- after the series has long since bitten the dust.

#588 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 16:44

Originally posted by McGuire



One more event illustrative of what things were like in '01: Harrah's came in as the title sponsor of that final MIS CART event -- the first and last time it sponsored a CART race. If you recall, at that time Harrah's was also a major sponsor of AJ Foyt's IRL team. I sat in a hospitality tent and watched and listened as two CART officials browbeat and lectured the Harrah's CEO for sponsoring an IRL team, while the poor man sat there staring at the doorway looking for an escape. I am not making this up. To this day it was one of the most unprofessional and chickenshit acts I have seen in motorsports. CART really was the most arrogant racing series on earth.



I saw a lot of that kind of junk on both sides and is the case with any corporation, it was always middle management wankers who shouldn't have been allowed out into public.

#589 aportinga

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 18:27

As I have said before, CART screwed itself and as a result people such as Ganassi, Penske and sponsors such as KMart ran.

I have no problem with that.

Hell I hated Heitzler and would get shit for saying it from the fanboys on the CART end in those days.

#590 Buford

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 19:30

CART's defense was certainly inadequate but there is no Wharton School of business tested method for defeating a business opponent that has the ability to absorb the loss of massive amounts of money for over a decade to put you out of business when you have to make a profit to satisfy shareholders. In most industries (not the sports world) that would be illegal restraint of trade.

IRL took over the TV spots the casual fans were used to seeing and when they came to watch, they no longer saw the top teams and drivers they were familiar with. They saw this utter garbage with the original crap wagons, Tyce Carlson and these lightweights being touted as the new Indy car heroes and how great it all was... this new series. Races after races with 50% or more yellow flags, talentless bumpkin after bumpkin slamming the wall while the announcers hyped this fantastic new series. It didn't take long for ratings to plunge as the casual fans who knew nothing about this split, couldn't find the real racers, knew they were being conned, and simply left the sport.

In reality, the total putridness of the original IRL that drove off most of the sponsors and fan base could be construed as a Machiavellian plot by Tony George to kill the sponsor base and fan base for the sport so he could take over the ashes and then rebuild. But we all know he wasn't that smart, nor has he shown any ability to rebuild. So the IRL won simply by being so ill conceived and bad it turned off everybody who cared about the sport. Cart retained most of the avid... not casual fans for a few years and then they faded away too, sick of all of it. Their numbers were enough to show good on site attendance but not enough to drive TV ratings high enough to justify sponsorship levels needed.

Did CART defend themselves well. No. But how do you defeat a deficit financed scam that kills the market for your product with its own stench. You cant. If Wendy's poisoned all their hamburger fans with mass death, hamburgers would fall out of favor, and Mac Donald's would have a hard time staying in business too even though they were guiltless. Their product was no longer wanted. That is what happened. The stench of the Tony George backed IRL killed the sport. CART's defense, inept as it may have been was hardly the reason Indy Car racing is in the toilet. Its all on the Lord of the Lucky Sperm. He was willing to spend any number of hundreds of millions of his mommy's money to put them put of business. Nothing he has shown the 10% of fans left has excited many, even his original bootlickers.

#591 Keir

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 19:32

So, Buford, in short, you don't like Tony George much ??

BTW, you forgot to mention that these "so called" heros of CART are now Tony's loyal lapdogs.

The funny thing about stink, stench and smell - they too will pass.

..... and behold, the loyal and disloyal will return and all shall be one with the universe.

Sorry, I was feeling a little 60/70's there for a minute.

But let's go a little futher back and say,

"much ado about nothing."

#592 Buford

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 19:36

Much to do about a lot until they made it nothing.

#593 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 20:20

Originally posted by Keir
So, Buford, in short, you don't like Tony George much ??

Who Does?

BTW, you forgot to mention that these "so called" heros of CART are now Tony's loyal lapdogs.

Amazing what happens with bribery,eh?

The funny thing about stink, stench and smell - they too will pass.

Dream on, that stench isn't in the air, it's a stain on the glorious history of IMS that is now written word

..... and behold, the loyal and disloyal will return and all shall be one with the universe.

Sorry, I was feeling a little 60/70's there for a minute.

Obviously, no more acid for you!

But let's go a little futher back and say,

"much ado about nothing."

That may be true, but only if you think that IMS history previous to the split was nothing



#594 McGuire

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 21:52

Originally posted by Buford
CART's defense was certainly inadequate but there is no Wharton School of business tested method for defeating a business opponent that has the ability to absorb the loss of massive amounts of money for over a decade to put you out of business when you have to make a profit to satisfy shareholders. In most industries (not the sports world) that would be illegal restraint of trade.


Baloney. If CART had a viable product and managed its business properly the fans would have followed it in droves, the sanctioning body would have run in the black and the series would have thrived. And Tony George could not have done a thing about it.

What the era of the split proves is A) that without the Indy 500, CART wasn't nearly as viable or marketable a product as CART thought it was; and 2) CART as a company was impervious to any form of management. An entire succession of executives from Andrew Craig to Bobby Rahal to Joe Heitzler to Chris Pook could not get it to run right. Its basic structure was sufficiently flawed that no one could succeed. The great lesson here is that team owners should not own racing series.

That is what caused the split. If CART had stuck to the original plan laid out in Dan Gurney's white paper and stayed out of the sanctioning body business, there would be no split in the first place.

The white paper is an interesting document. Except for the name "CART," the organization never adopted a single one of the principles set forth in it. The white paper's two main stated objectives were increasing the race purses and television revenues, and in 24 years they were never achieved.

Know your open wheel history.

#595 Buford

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 22:13

You know it and stop trying to distort it. Nothing I said was incorrect. The casual fans left the sport in droves when they saw the IRL - they did not seek out CART on obscure channels. When the TV ratings tanked, the sponsor revenue tanked and the sport tanked. It all goes back to the tantrum at Georgetown Road. Everything after that, inept or not, was reaction.

#596 John Morrison

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 23:57

Hey Buford how about quit being a crybaby. Your old days are dead. A memory. This is the future whether its shine or bleak. Live for the future. You're gonna drop of heart attack continue on your "Back in my days" bitter rants. 15 years later you are still a loser. The portal of your old days is permanently closed while my portal is straight to the future.

#597 McGuire

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 00:44

Originally posted by Buford
You know it and stop trying to distort it. Nothing I said was incorrect. The casual fans left the sport in droves when they saw the IRL - they did not seek out CART on obscure channels. When the TV ratings tanked, the sponsor revenue tanked and the sport tanked. It all goes back to the tantrum at Georgetown Road. Everything after that, inept or not, was reaction.


If CART cannot survive without the Speedway, then it had damn well better do business with the Speedway. You seem to think this is all based on some tantrum thrown by Tony George. You keep saying it anyway. That is ignorant of 70 years of history.

Open wheel racing in North America is controlled and directed by the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. Always has been, always will be. Why? Because it is the only asset in the sport of any significant and lasting value. The Speedway is the center of gravity of OW racing.

In its 24 years of existence CART had the opportunity to build its own assets and infrastructure. It never did. Indy aside, its own marquee event was on a temporary street course in Long Beach. The company issued stock in 1998 and distributed the shares to the team owners -- who quickly sold them. In its entire history CART never turned a significant profit, and never ran in the black from 2000 on. When the company's treasury was finally drained in team handouts in 2003, the team owners simply picked up and went back to Indy. The racing was great but as a business CART was just a castle in the sand. The tide came in and when the tide came out it was all gone -- like it had never existed.

One could hazard a guess that the Indianapolis Motor Speedway spends more on tangible capital improvements each year than CART invested on same in its entire history.

No, CART was simply a historical accident created by the death of Tony Hulman, when his designated successor, his grandson Tony George, was 18 years old. Joe Cloutier ran the Speedway until his death in 1989, when George, now 30, became President and CEO. Slowly at first but with increasing resolve, he reasserted the Speedway's traditional position in open-wheel racing. If CART was going to survive and thrive and remain a positive force in the sport, it needed to cut a deal for shared power with George and the Speedway when it had the chance. That would be around 1991-94.

#598 shaggy

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 01:00

Originally posted by McGuire


If CART cannot survive without the Speedway, then it had damn well better do business with the Speedway. You seem to think this is all based on some tantrum thrown by Tony George. You keep saying it anyway. That is ignorant of 70 years of history.

Open wheel racing in North America is controlled and directed by the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. Always has been, always will be. Why? Because it is the only asset in the sport of any significant and lasting value. The Speedway is the center of gravity of OW racing.

That is ignorant of the last 12 years, and of Buford's argument.
The argument has always been that TG managed to DESTROY OW in America. And, yes, it was a childish tantrum.
The Speedway is no longer the center of gravity. It has become a black hole, destroying everything it touches.

"Always has been. Always will be." Yes, but of an ever smaller pie.

Maybe CART should have dealt with TG; but TG should not have killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

shaggy

#599 shaggy

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 01:03

Originally posted by John Morrison
Hey Buford how about quit being a crybaby. Your old days are dead. A memory. This is the future whether its shine or bleak. Live for the future. You're gonna drop of heart attack continue on your "Back in my days" bitter rants. 15 years later you are still a loser. The portal of your old days is permanently closed while my portal is straight to the future.

Your future is the light of an incoming train.
I'd rather be a crybaby than an ass licker.
Have fun in Detroit .... or with Alcoa at any other race in "your" future.

shaggy

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#600 aportinga

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 01:53

Originally posted by McGuire


Baloney. If CART had a viable product and managed its business properly the fans would have followed it in droves, the sanctioning body would have run in the black and the series would have thrived.


I agree with this statement. Tony George had some concerns - specifically regards to American drivers and such. Althought he was full of shit and had no intention of looking out for the mom & pops and American drivers, I do think that CART should have focused more on driver development and maintaining a linkage with traditional OW racing roots. They failed and subsequently set the stage for the exodous of the pro-American, oval based racing fans who before collectively supported CART. This fan base eventually equated to half of the overall number.

THAT was CART's failue and THEY essentially positioned themselves for what was to come.

It's a shame that someone with true interest in improving the sport - someone wiling to invest the time and effort to help steer the series towards a more progressive direction with a sight on the history in mind never surfaced... Someone with a true business back ground - who was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth - essentially a charity case vs men who made something of themselves.

Of course unitl they ALL shot themselves in the foot.