Jump to content


Photo

IndyCar 2009 (merged)


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
1624 replies to this topic

#851 Buford

Buford
  • Member

  • 11,173 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 19:49

Bottom line - no bullshit - no smoke screening. the sport of American open wheel racing (Indy Car racing) was never more popular than it was in 1995. In every measurable way. One man decided it needed to be saved and split the sport in an ill conceived plan that failed miserably. Every goal he stated was not met - a total failure, and resulted in a downward spiral for the sport ever since.

There is no shared blame. There are not complications. There is no bullshit allowed or history rewriting acceptable. It is all on the record and it is all on the shoulders of the one man who decided he knew a better way, which coincidentally had him being in charge. That one man is Tony George and his ball lickers cannot cover up the truth no matter how much they try to muddy the conversation with what happened years later. The blame is on one man - Tony George - the man who said he had a way to improve on all time record popularity - and all those who followed him then... and now.

Advertisement

#852 ajcrean

ajcrean
  • Member

  • 229 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 20:01

Originally posted by Keir
Failing metrics and all that, still no refute on worldwide broadcast numbers.


That's because - and I'm happy to be corrected if anyone on this Board knows otherwise - I don't think they exist. I can't recall ever coming across any publication or website that went to the trouble of compiling worldwide viewing figures. Regardless, the US figures show that ratings have tanked since The Split and, seeing as it's a US race hosting a US-based Series, I'd say those figures are relevant...

#853 ajcrean

ajcrean
  • Member

  • 229 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 20:20

Originally posted by Buford
Bottom line - no bullshit - no smoke screening. the sport of American open wheel racing (Indy Car racing) was never more popular than it was in 1995. In every measurable way. One man decided it needed to be saved and split the sport in an ill conceived plan that failed miserably. Every goal he stated was not met - a total failure, and resulted in a downward spiral for the sport ever since.

There is no shared blame. There are not complications. There is no bullshit allowed or history rewriting acceptable. It is all on the record and it is all on the shoulders of the one man who decided he knew a better way, which coincidentally had him being in charge. That one man is Tony George and his ball lickers cannot cover up the truth no matter how much they try to muddy the conversation with what happened years later. The blame is on one man - Tony George - the man who said he had a way to improve on all time record popularity - and all those who followed him then... and now.


I once used to hold the same opinion as you but long ago accepted that it's (a) dramatically over-simplified and (b) now totally and utterly irrelevant. The Sport is screwed and may never recover (certainly not under the current Management.) I could weep when I think back to how things were pre-'96.

Don't get me wrong: Tony George is a knob of note but no-one at CART was adult enough to sit down and negotiate the issues; to make him understand the ramifications of what he was planning and talk him around. They smiled, sniggered and pushed him out of the sandpit with his toys tucked under his arm. Throughout the late-nineties, they and the fans (including myself) laughed at the no-hopers in the IRL and smugly thought that CART could comfortably outspend the League and force them under. That laughter stopped round about 2001 when it became apparent that CART was up a certain creek without a necessary implement.

#854 Buford

Buford
  • Member

  • 11,173 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 20:30

It was their position at that time there was no rational possibility of successfully dealing with an irrational druggie and his alcoholic mother - and I agree with them... there wasn't. They didn't know how to deal with complete stupidity and irrational fantasies and unbusinesslike and unworkable "ideas". Don't forget Tony George was fresh out of drug rehab and never had a responsible job in his life at that time. There really was no way to negotiate with a total moron. To say there was and it was possible is total history revisionism.

#855 potmotr

potmotr
  • Member

  • 9,999 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 06 February 2009 - 20:31

Man, this is getting heavy.

I wonder how Mike Conway will cope with the ovals...?

#856 whitewaterMkII

whitewaterMkII
  • Member

  • 4,990 posts
  • Joined: November 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 20:34

Originally posted by potmotr

I wonder how Mike Conway will cope with the ovals...?

Probably like they are four left hand corners ?

#857 ajcrean

ajcrean
  • Member

  • 229 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 20:35

Originally posted by Buford
It was their position at that time there was no rational possibility of successfully dealing with an irrational druggie and his alcoholic mother - and I agree with them... there wasn't. They didn't kniow how to deal with complete stupidity and irrational unbusinesslike and unworkable "ideas".


But, unfortunately for CART, Tony had the keys to the IMS in his pocket. So, that pretty much meant that he could be as difficult as he wanted...

#858 potmotr

potmotr
  • Member

  • 9,999 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 06 February 2009 - 20:39

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII

Probably like they are four left hand corners ?


I never quite got a gauge of him in GP2.

I mean, he seemed really strong in F3 but kind of disappeared.

#859 Buford

Buford
  • Member

  • 11,173 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 20:41

Well I will give blame to CART to this extent - and myself - and everybody in the sport at the time. Nobody thought he would carry through on it. That's why Robin miller wrote the often quoted line, "The IRL will never turn a wheel." That was the prevailing opinion "on the street." He meant, everybody thought it was mindless posturing, and in the final hour, rational minds would prevail and there would be some kind of rational compromise and solution. CART was to blame to the extent they simply didn't take Tony George for the complete moron he turned out to be.

Advertisement

#860 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 55,891 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 06 February 2009 - 20:43

I don't think any of them look very clever these days, do you?

#861 ajcrean

ajcrean
  • Member

  • 229 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 20:45

Originally posted by Buford
CART was to blame to the extent they simply didn't take Tony George for the complete moron he turned out to be.


I like that! I'm printing that out and having it framed... :lol:

#862 aportinga

aportinga
  • Member

  • 7,791 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 20:45

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII

Probably like they are four left hand corners ?



:rotfl:

#863 red stick

red stick
  • Member

  • 2,274 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 20:48

Originally posted by potmotr
Man, this is getting heavy.

I wonder how Mike Conway will cope with the ovals...?



Depends on if Duno's his driver coach . . .

Oh wait, I read somewhere in here that she's not on that team anymore.  ;)

#864 red stick

red stick
  • Member

  • 2,274 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 20:52

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII

Probably like they are four left hand corners ?


IIRC, Mansell found out it wasn't that simple. But he learned quickly.

#865 aportinga

aportinga
  • Member

  • 7,791 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 21:04

Originally posted by red stick



Depends on if Duno's his driver coach . . .

Oh wait, I read somewhere in here that she's not on that team anymore.  ;)


I am actually looking forward to the 4 races I will get this year - I hope she does well.

Princess pout will be devastated.

#866 aportinga

aportinga
  • Member

  • 7,791 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 21:07

Originally posted by red stick


IIRC, Mansell found out it wasn't that simple. But he learned quickly.


Relative to drivers with oval experience Mansell was a rock star - his problem was restarts.

#867 aportinga

aportinga
  • Member

  • 7,791 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 21:07

Careful we may have to move this to TNF.

#868 red stick

red stick
  • Member

  • 2,274 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 21:10

Re Duno and Patrick: Maybe. Placing a slow driver in a fast car does not necessarily make her faster.

We spent a great deal of time at one point a few months ago comparing Danica's and Marco's off-season racing regimen, with Marco doing A1GP and Danica doing . . . Wii? I wonder what Duno's was.

#869 red stick

red stick
  • Member

  • 2,274 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 21:12

Originally posted by aportinga


Relative to drivers with oval experience Mansell was a rock star - his problem was restarts.


As I recall he slapped the wall, hard, in an early oval race, and was still sore when he raced at Indy in '93. But as I say, he caught on quickly.

#870 aportinga

aportinga
  • Member

  • 7,791 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 21:14

Originally posted by red stick
Re Duno and Patrick: Maybe. Placing a slow driver in a fast car does not necessarily make her faster.

We spent a great deal of time at one point a few months ago comparing Danica's and Marco's off-season racing regimen, with Marco doing A1GP and Danica doing . . . Wii? I wonder what Duno's was.


I do not necessarily think that Milka actually is slower - in fact in equal cars I think she is faster. We'll have too see what sort of car N/H/L give her. She's the 3rd party and her $$$ will probably pay for the package. She'll get a benefit of some better engineering skills but this is coming from data over just one season vs AGR.

As far as the Wii is concerned - My 9 year old and wife got one for Christmas. It has some good games for them - plus WiiFit (which is neat) but I don't think it has any decent race games. From what I hear that's all on PlayStation3.

I never was a gamer.

#871 red stick

red stick
  • Member

  • 2,274 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 21:18

Originally posted by aportinga
I never was a gamer.


I was going for the cheap joke--I have no idea what the current racing games are, or the time to play them.

#872 red stick

red stick
  • Member

  • 2,274 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 21:20

Originally posted by aportinga


I do not necessarily think that Milka actually is slower - in fact in equal cars I think she is faster.



Not sure what you mean by equal cars.

In terms of qualifying, finishing, wins, points (Danica was, remember, 6th at the end of the season) etc., I don't think last season bears out your claim. Danica can't manage a restart to save her life, but when she's running, she's not a moving chicane. Duno . . .?

#873 aportinga

aportinga
  • Member

  • 7,791 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 21:22

Originally posted by red stick



Not sure what you mean by equal cars.

In terms of qualifying, finishing, wins, etc., I don't think last season bears out your claim. Danica can't manage a restart to save her life, but when she's running, she's not a moving chicane. Duno . . .?


Danica was in a better car however... There were alot of moving chicanes - most if not all were in cars which were slow to begin with. At N/H/L I think THAT part of the equation should fall out and we'll be looking at talent only.

#874 red stick

red stick
  • Member

  • 2,274 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 21:24

Originally posted by aportinga
At N/H/L I think THAT part of the equation should fall out and we'll be looking at talent only.


Agreed.

But in "equal" equipment she was slower than Rice. Can't imagine she'll be quicker than Rahal or Doornbos, let alone Patrick.

#875 B Squared

B Squared
  • Member

  • 3,119 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 06 February 2009 - 21:24

"As I recall he slapped the wall, hard, in an early oval race, and was still sore when he raced at Indy in '93. But as I say, he caught on quickly." red stick

Turn One at Phoenix. The impact saw the gearbox punch a hole in the wall. IIRC, John Andretti punched a hole in the Phoenix wall also.

Brian

#876 whitewaterMkII

whitewaterMkII
  • Member

  • 4,990 posts
  • Joined: November 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 21:28

Originally posted by B Squared
"As I recall he slapped the wall, hard, in an early oval race, and was still sore when he raced at Indy in '93. But as I say, he caught on quickly." red stick

Turn One at Phoenix. The impact saw the gearbox punch a hole in the wall. IIRC, John Andretti punched a hole in the Phoenix wall also.

Brian


That's one oval that I always loved. That thing would bite you in a heartbeat, and for an oval, that one was like one gigantic left hand sweepr, it sure as hell wasn't four corners.

#877 red stick

red stick
  • Member

  • 2,274 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 21:30

Originally posted by B Squared
"As I recall he slapped the wall, hard, in an early oval race, and was still sore when he raced at Indy in '93. But as I say, he caught on quickly." red stick

Turn One at Phoenix. The impact saw the gearbox punch a hole in the wall. IIRC, John Andretti punched a hole in the Phoenix wall also.

Brian


Thanks. I was thinking Phoenix but couldn't recall where it fell in the schedule back then, and I'm away from my reference material.

Rattled him mightily, and I seem to recall the announcers pointing out that on ovals, if you steer into the skid trying to save it like you do on road courses, you find the wall. It was a rare mistake that Mansell did not make again in his CART career.

#878 aportinga

aportinga
  • Member

  • 7,791 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 22:20

Originally posted by red stick


Agreed.

But in "equal" equipment she was slower than Rice. Can't imagine she'll be quicker than Rahal or Doornbos, let alone Patrick.


Definately slower then Rahal and Doornboss...

#879 Buford

Buford
  • Member

  • 11,173 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 22:25

Originally posted by red stick
Re Duno and Patrick: Maybe. Placing a slow driver in a fast car does not necessarily make her faster.

We spent a great deal of time at one point a few months ago comparing Danica's and Marco's off-season racing regimen, with Marco doing A1GP and Danica doing . . . Wii? I wonder what Duno's was.


What was she doing? She was doing him obviously...


Posted Image
Posted Image

Advertisement

#880 McGuire

McGuire
  • Member

  • 9,218 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 06 February 2009 - 22:45

Originally posted by Buford
Well I will give blame to CART to this extent - and myself - and everybody in the sport at the time. Nobody thought he would carry through on it. That's why Robin miller wrote the often quoted line, "The IRL will never turn a wheel." That was the prevailing opinion "on the street." He meant, everybody thought it was mindless posturing, and in the final hour, rational minds would prevail and there would be some kind of rational compromise and solution. CART was to blame to the extent they simply didn't take Tony George for the complete moron he turned out to be.


All that shows is how arrogant CART was. They thought they were the center of the universe and could not imagine anything outside themselves. Hell, not just Tony George. they wouldn't do business with anyone unless they felt like it.

I know lots of people who knew Tony was serious and CART needed to do deal with him. Penske to name one. But the rest of the team owners listened to Andrew Craig for some reason... even though he had just parachuted in and didn't really know the sport at all.

#881 Keir

Keir
  • Member

  • 5,213 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:03

Holy crap ..... just when I thought the discussion was back on racing !!!

I must however respond to an earlier attack.

aportinga,

we all love and respect you, but your head, at times, gets very cloudy.

You say you are a fan of OW, but you piss and moan like the kid picked last in the unimportant game of life.

1995, OW was at the height of it's popularity or not.

Tony George is satan or not.

This one can't drive, this one should have a drive or not !!

Silly, silly and sillier and on it's way to silliest !!!

Nielsen ratings an industry standard ? 'Cos no one else gives a crap.

Tony George is not the "lone gunman" about to kill OW. There's lots and lots of blame to go around.

Again, if you feel strongly enough that you are right, get out your wallet and prove it. Indycar needs an influx of cash. He who pays gets to have his say. Everyone else is a pissy little bitch crying they're getting wet in a rainstorm.

#882 shaggy

shaggy
  • Member

  • 1,661 posts
  • Joined: March 99

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:08

Originally posted by McGuire


Motorsports is a real business and should be managed by motorsports professionals. Just because you can run a shoe store does not mean you can run a race track, race team, or racing series.

Look at all the "real businessmen" who went into NASCAR in recent years buying into race teams. Got their clocks cleaned.

"Real businessmen" created the current global economic crisis.

If real businessmen can mess up, imagine the mess a rehab dropout can do. Well, we now know what that looks like - empty bleachers where once thousands used to gather. TG is not a motrosport professional, and by your own statement, he should not be running IMS.

Besides, maybe they got their clock cleaned, but it is not as if the Pettys are doing that great, either.

How much longer will it take until you admit the obvious ? The Emperor has no clothes. TG destroyed OW in the US. He should now allow someone else to come in and fix his tantrum's consequences.

OW in the US is a joke today due to TG's actions. If CC was wrong, inept, etc. .... how come TG is copying everything they did ? Who, then, is the biggest fool ?

#883 McGuire

McGuire
  • Member

  • 9,218 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:20

Originally posted by shaggy

If real businessmen can mess up, imagine the mess a rehab dropout can do.


Well, there you go. When you resort to that sort of argument you disqualify yourself from intelligent conversation, which is the only kind that interests me.

#884 whitewaterMkII

whitewaterMkII
  • Member

  • 4,990 posts
  • Joined: November 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:25

Originally posted by McGuire

Hell, not just Tony George. they wouldn't do business with anyone unless they felt like it.


No kidding. Why would anyone do business with them, oh wait...
It's a wonder they ever landed Mercedes, Toyota, Honda and Ford as engine suppliers.
What were those guys at Lola, Reynard and Penske chassis' thinking?
I mean why would anyone like Marlboro, Mobil 1, Texaco, Target, Cummins, Visa, Pennzoil, Visa, Miller, Budweiser, Tecate, Quaker State, Motorola, Glidden, Players or Panasonic want to associate themselves with such a series?
Thank goodness the inbred hoosiers led by Tony George saved us from all that!

#885 Buford

Buford
  • Member

  • 11,173 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:30

Originally posted by McGuire


Well, there you go. When you resort to that sort of argument you disqualify yourself from intelligent conversation, which is the only kind that interests me.


In other words you have no defense for the reality that your hero is a drug burnout - because its true you know!!! You can't revise or smokescreen that history and it is a primary reason (along with his idiotic ideas that all subsequently failed in total) that CART had no respect for him and didn't think he was as much of a moron as he turned out to be. What is your excuse then for defending the indefensible?.

#886 red stick

red stick
  • Member

  • 2,274 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:33

When did the thread merge? And with what?


Or is this a late-breaking acknowledgment of the end of the split?

#887 Buford

Buford
  • Member

  • 11,173 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:36

Originally posted by Keir
Holy crap ..... just when I thought the discussion was back on racing !!!



Yeah it was - we were discussing who is a worse Indy car driver Milk and Donuts or the bitch queen before chief TG ball licker McGuire jumped in to tell us he was the most objective observer of open wheel racing in existence lol. Bill Vukovich must be turning over in his grave at this farce. This was a great sport until Tony George got out of drug rehab and his mommy gave him the first job of his pathetic life.

#888 ajcrean

ajcrean
  • Member

  • 229 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:38

Originally posted by red stick
When did the thread merge? And with what?


There was another thread started about Duno signing with N/H/L which the Mods merged into this one.

#889 whitewaterMkII

whitewaterMkII
  • Member

  • 4,990 posts
  • Joined: November 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:40

Originally posted by red stick
When did the thread merge? And with what?

Kinda weird.
This thread I guess is a catch all.
There is umpteen F1 posts on this board covering everything from Flavio's latest STD or Max's latest spanking, but everything indy is wrapped up in one simple bundle on this thread.
I kinda likes that Phoenix interlude, but i guess someone had it right, that's nostalgia.
I like Buford's famous line about all of racing being essentially a dick measuring contest.
If that's the case this thread has to be marked as internet postings version of the same contest, with some of the biggest ones checking in here regularly.
:p

#890 Buford

Buford
  • Member

  • 11,173 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:44

Yeah but yours and mine are obviously bigger. Wow i had forgotten my Speednet post from a decade ago - "Racing is just a dick measuring contest among maniacs.' Funny when the fans who never climbed in one or worked on one act the same as their heroes huh lol?

#891 wide-front-wing

wide-front-wing
  • Member

  • 509 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:46

Originally posted by Keir
Indycar needs an influx of cash. He who pays gets to have his say. Everyone else is a pissy little bitch crying they're getting wet in a rainstorm.


Really? So in spite of a massive decline and pretty much no interest in Europe, you claim the Indy 500 is the greatest race in the world - which it clearly is not, as Le Mans, Monaco, and Daytona are all more prestigious and still maintain their heritage and integrity.

And then you use the catch all that unless you invest cash in the series any criticism is just crying? Talk about blind (and irrational) fandom!

I am too new to take sides on any ongoing debate that has a history here, but to pretend the 500 is still what it used to be is really sad...because it hasn't declined just a little - it's a shadow of it's former self, and by far, by FAR not as important as F1, NASCAR, and one could argue other series as well.

You can even argue nowadays that IndyCar is below GP2 and A1GP - and that the 500 cannot stand many more years of irrelevance, in fact, it may become a NASCAR race...it's just that bad.

It's not a little bit in trouble, it's a LOT in trouble.

#892 ajcrean

ajcrean
  • Member

  • 229 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:47

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII
...everything indy is wrapped up in one simple bundle on this thread.


...which quite aptly reflects the IRL's popularity amongst the dedicated and (mostly) knowledgeable Autosport/AtlasF1 readers. Never mind though: some bloke on this thread has assured us a few times that Indy's prestige is undimmed, attendence is swelling and that I can watch it in HD...  ;)

#893 whitewaterMkII

whitewaterMkII
  • Member

  • 4,990 posts
  • Joined: November 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:47

Originally posted by Buford
Wow i had forgotten my Speednet post from a decade ago - "Racing is just a dick measuring contest among maniacs.'

Hey, if you ever archived that, I think that is still valid today.

#894 red stick

red stick
  • Member

  • 2,274 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:48

Originally posted by ajcrean
There was another thread started about Duno signing with N/H/L which the Mods merged into this one.


Thanks. Thought I was paying attention, but I am past 40 . . .

#895 red stick

red stick
  • Member

  • 2,274 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:51

Originally posted by Keir
Holy crap ..... just when I thought the discussion was back on racing !!!


To recap, a page or so ago, Aportinga and McGuire agreed on something related to the split. This clearly being a sign of the apocalypse, calmer minds intervened to rescue us all from calamity.










We should probably thank them.

#896 McGuire

McGuire
  • Member

  • 9,218 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 06 February 2009 - 23:59

Originally posted by Buford



Yeah it was - we were discussing who is a worse Indy car driver Milk and Donuts or the bitch queen before chief TG ball licker McGuire jumped in


Buford, if we were having this conversation in person I would have two choices at this point: Laugh in your face or knock you on your ass. So why do you handle yourself in such a sorry manner here? Do you really need the attention that badly?

#897 Buford

Buford
  • Member

  • 11,173 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 07 February 2009 - 00:03

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII

Hey, if you ever archived that, I think that is still valid today.



Well my posts that got around the racing world and were debated and re quoted the most over the years were that one about Dick Measuring, Shitbox Hero, The Hot Dog Vendor has No Clothes, and Theory of the Pompous Ass. Somebody sent me a copy of Pompous Ass and i have the Hot Dog one, but no longer have Dick measuring or Shitbox hero.

#898 Buford

Buford
  • Member

  • 11,173 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 07 February 2009 - 00:04

Originally posted by McGuire


Buford, if we were having this conversation in person I would have two choices at this point: Laugh in your face or knock you on your ass. So why do you handle yourself in such a sorry manner here? Do you really need the attention that badly?



Oh big man... big man., The last resort of the intellectually defeated - threaten violence lol. You are a pathetic twat history rewriter. A total con man and i have been around long enough to know your lies and call you on them. Of all the people I have met in 60 years around this sport - I think the one I have the least respect for is you. And that includes the IRL weenies who took my partner's name off a business charity check he and I had sent to paralyzed driver Bob Hurt and published it in a forum trying to claim that was me and obviously nobody with that name had been a WOO and USAC driver. Bunch of **** all of you Lemmings.

#899 red stick

red stick
  • Member

  • 2,274 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 07 February 2009 - 00:28

Originally posted by red stick
. . . calmer minds . . .


Clearly meant ironically. :rolleyes:

Advertisement

#900 potmotr

potmotr
  • Member

  • 9,999 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 07 February 2009 - 00:33

Jesus, IndyCar 2008 was such a relaxed thread to read.

Come on guys, deep breaths...