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IndyCar 2009 (merged)


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#1101 B Squared

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 12:02

A few rumors from Curt Cavin. Are those still allowed here?

http://blogs.indysta...ing_return.html

There has been wild speculation on the part of certain journalists in this sport from its inception and throughout the decades since. It's part of it. The writers offer up far more correct information than bad. Just because they got something wrong doesn't mean they are now the king-pin of some massive conspiracy or are intentionally writing fiction. Easy solution, if you don't like them or their style, don't search them out.

Brian

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#1102 aportinga

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 14:53

Originally posted by Option1
I'd also add that Miller, unlike some of the lemming journos, at least has the decency to admit when he's wrong.

Neil


I agree.

10 years ago IMS had him fired from the IndyStar from writing negative articles and spewing negativity regarding the IRL. His Indy500 access pass was pulled by Tony George himself until an uproar got it re-instated.

From that point on RM rolled with CART and later ChampCar until the idiots running that league decided to toss him out the moment he started writing articles about how pissed off Cotman and other ChampCar employees were based on the lack of management from Kalkoven and bullshit being released by Gentilozzi to other (non press) related entities.

RM was left with no ship at that point period.

Now CC merges with the IRL and the "league" shuts it's doors even further - in terms of releasing news. RM is still spewing negativity regarding the league, Barnhart and George and has since the off season began admitted to making up 2 stories in order to generate press and momentumn.

Hardly a source close to the heartbeat of the IRL if you ask me.

Furthermore - who said that ING ever had commited Doorboss for the IRL in the first place... Shit reeks of Alfa vaporware BS if you ask me.

And if you do not see that then your eyes must have been shut for the last 13 years becuase tossing shot against a wall to see what sticks is mostly what these guys have been doing - shit even the DP01 was called vaporware - even after photos of it (in full scall) surfaced.

#1103 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 14:55

Thing is when Robin Miller says Alfa are sniffing around, and you say they're not; who are we really going to follow?

#1104 aportinga

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 14:58

Originally posted by B Squared
A few rumors from Curt Cavin. Are those still allowed here?

http://blogs.indysta...ing_return.html

There has been wild speculation on the part of certain journalists in this sport from its inception and throughout the decades since. It's part of it. The writers offer up far more correct information than bad. Just because they got something wrong doesn't mean they are now the king-pin of some massive conspiracy or are intentionally writing fiction. Easy solution, if you don't like them or their style, don't search them out.

Brian


If your directing at me that is NOT what I am saying.

Firstly there is a LACK of information being broadcasted from IMS - that in itself will lead to speculation.

IMS has never been an open door of information based marketing. ChampCar was the opposite in that it used people to get the word out - mostly their word. RM however always added his own perspective - which is why of all the journalists I can respect him. He's also a former driver as well which gives him more latitude on opinions in this region.

This is not all about bad journalism. It's mostly about impropper use of a medium which can break the news for you (IMS) and promote the series. They (IMS) haven't a clue how to do this which leaves all these journalists speculating based on bits they get from teams.

#1105 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 16:08

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Thing is when Robin Miller says Alfa are sniffing around, and you say they're not; who are we really going to follow?


I vote for common sense.
Why in the world would Alfa be involved in talks on being an engine supplier to the irl?
Common Sense tells me they will never build engines for the irl, they have no compelling reason to do so, they sell few if any cars in the US, so there is no return on the money unless they sell like 300K units here or so.
The only reason I can think of that they are still at these talks is that TG is picking the tab up for some great grub at the meetings.

#1106 ensign14

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 16:40

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII
Why in the world would Alfa be involved in talks on being an engine supplier to the irl?

They've been at Indy before. Albeit that was basically a Ferrari engine with a the Alfa badgement stamped thereon.

#1107 aportinga

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 17:35

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Thing is when Robin Miller says Alfa are sniffing around, and you say they're not; who are we really going to follow?


Well when Robin admits he made it up where does that leave us. I mean who is held to the higher standard?

Fact is he did make that up - and admit to it. I called before he admitted that - using (what another poster mentioned here) common sense.

Pretty simple if you ask me.

#1108 aportinga

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 17:37

Originally posted by ensign14

They've been at Indy before. Albeit that was basically a Ferrari engine with a the Alfa badgement stamped thereon.


Indy had meaning and depth and cash was readily avaiable. Also their were few - if any companies looking over metrics with regards to ROI back then - at least not of this nature and nothing serious.

#1109 AyePirate

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 18:00

Does Alfa even have plans to sell cars in the US?

The United States (ditto for Canada and Mexico) isn't even on the pull down menu on the Alfa site.

If they do maybe the IRL would make sense as opposed to fighting it out in ALMS.

#1110 aportinga

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 18:05

Remember that these manufactures were invited. I am sure they want data to back up an investment and that has to come from the series. Based on that I cannot see any manufacture investing money just to be present at the 500. Everything else is completely worthless based on televised ratings (which is where the bulk of marketing exists).

My bet is that some of these people will be stringed along in hopes that other (real) manufacture - perhaps US manufactures, jump in.

IMO it's probably the same bait that ChampCar teams were handing out to prospected sponsors up until the last minute when ChampCar owners were asked if this was the series which raced at the 500. When they answered the sponsors walked.

I have no doubt that if any manufactures actually got the real numbers for the IRL and compared that to a variety of other marketing outlets, they'd walk as well - even long before the economy hit the shitter.

#1111 AyePirate

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 18:11

Originally posted by aportinga


IMO it's probably the same bait that ChampCar teams were handing out to prospected sponsors up until the last minute when ChampCar owners were asked if this was the series which raced at the 500. When they answered the sponsors walked.


At least they can say "yes" to that question.

Who owns Cosworth now? Is it still KK?

#1112 aportinga

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 18:32

Very true.

Cosi and Pi which handles the electronics for Cosi platforms is owned by Forsythe and Kalkoven.

#1113 Rob G

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 18:51

Originally posted by AyePirate
Does Alfa even have plans to sell cars in the US?

Yes they do. They've been trying to break back into the US market for a few years now, but I think the recession has pushed their plans back to at least 2011. However, the new Fiat/Chrysler tie-up might end up facilitating their re-entry.

#1114 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 19:11

Originally posted by aportinga
Remember that these manufactures were invited. I am sure they want data to back up an investment and that has to come from the series. Based on that I cannot see any manufacture investing money just to be present at the 500. Everything else is completely worthless based on televised ratings (which is where the bulk of marketing exists).

My bet is that some of these people will be stringed along in hopes that other (real) manufacture - perhaps US manufactures, jump in.

IMO it's probably the same bait that ChampCar teams were handing out to prospected sponsors up until the last minute when ChampCar owners were asked if this was the series which raced at the 500. When they answered the sponsors walked.

I have no doubt that if any manufactures actually got the real numbers for the IRL and compared that to a variety of other marketing outlets, they'd walk as well - even long before the economy hit the shitter.


Depends. If you want to do straight up logo-to-eyeball, you run a Superbowl ad. If you want to run image and technology campaigns, you're hardly going to join NASCAR. You could be competitive in Indycar for far less money if you do it right.

Otherwise why would Audi dick around with the ALMS? It's not much better, and is just as expensive.

#1115 aportinga

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 20:07

Originally posted by Rob G

Yes they do. They've been trying to break back into the US market for a few years now, but I think the recession has pushed their plans back to at least 2011. However, the new Fiat/Chrysler tie-up might end up facilitating their re-entry.


Indeed

#1116 aportinga

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 20:08

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


Depends. If you want to do straight up logo-to-eyeball, you run a Superbowl ad. If you want to run image and technology campaigns, you're hardly going to join NASCAR. You could be competitive in Indycar for far less money if you do it right.

Otherwise why would Audi dick around with the ALMS? It's not much better, and is just as expensive.


I think Audi involved itself in ALMS because it enabled them to cater to their largest market - the US on the track. It also gave them technical experience which helped their runs at LeMans.

Same as Porsche.

#1117 Slyder

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 21:03

Originally posted by aportinga


Well when Robin admits he made it up where does that leave us. I mean who is held to the higher standard?

Fact is he did make that up - and admit to it. I called before he admitted that - using (what another poster mentioned here) common sense.

Pretty simple if you ask me.


So when Robin called Tony George on what he caused the split, on the 25/8 rule, on the 33 just being a number, on the true problems of CART and IRL and the fact that they were killing each other with the aforementioned stupid rivalry, was he bullshitting on those things as well?

Heck, even Buford knows Robin from way back, enough to state that he knows that Robin Miller is no bullshitter...

You want a bullshitter? try Jayson Blair or Stephen Glass (I know, different subject but you get the point)...

#1118 aportinga

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 21:10

Originally posted by Slyder


So when Robin called Tony George on what he caused the split, on the 25/8 rule, on the 33 just being a number, on the true problems of CART and IRL and the fact that they were killing each other with the aforementioned stupid rivalry, was he bullshitting on those things as well?

Heck, even Buford knows Robin from way back, enough to state that he knows that Robin Miller is no bullshitter...

You want a bullshitter? try Jayson Blair or Stephen Glass (I know, different subject but you get the point)...


That was a common sense COMMENT made after the fact. I am refering to a prediction inplanted by RM which had not even happened - nor will it.

Two completly different things.

I do not think RM is a bullshitter. I just don't think journalists should be making things up. Overall I like RM more then any other journalist covering OW racing. Do I disagree with him? Mostly no. In fact I think he would make a great race announcer for the broadcast booth.

But then again so would Buford.

#1119 shaggy

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 02:11

When it comes to Robin Miller, people tend to forget the difference between a journalist and an editorialist.
Robin Miller is the latter. And he is very good at it.
Another thing about Miller : he truly loves OW racing. The real thing, that is; not the joke TG created.

shaggy

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#1120 Buford

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 06:13

Yes I have known Robin Miller since 1975 when he was critically injured right in front of me in a USAC midget. If it had been a half second later I would have been wiped out by the out of control car, not him. Since the track was a few miles from my house I went to visit him at the hospital even though I didn't know him. Racing people take care of their own - or used to anyway.

Though we rarely meet up anymore, yes I would say he is one of my oldest surviving friends in the racing world. When I hear couch sitter weasels who never got closer to a race car than a popcorn box in row 27 of the grandstand criticize his knowledge, dedication to the sport, or integrity, well I know another lemming has squeaked.

#1121 aportinga

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 13:07

Mark Webber doesn't know what Indy means!

The 32-year-old also said too much overtaking is actually boring, pointing the finger at the IndyCar series.

"It's not very exciting if there are 10,000 passes every race: it has to be a challenge. It is not meant to be easy, otherwise it's like IndyCars, not very exciting."



http://uk.eurosport.....e-changes.html

#1122 shaggy

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 02:21

Originally posted by Buford
Yes I have known Robin Miller since 1975 when he was critically injured right in front of me in a USAC midget. If it had been a half second later I would have been wiped out by the out of control car, not him. Since the track was a few miles from my house I went to visit him at the hospital even though I didn't know him. Racing people take care of their own - or used to anyway.

Though we rarely meet up anymore, yes I would say he is one of my oldest surviving friends in the racing world. When I hear couch sitter weasels who never got closer to a race car than a popcorn box in row 27 of the grandstand criticize his knowledge, dedication to the sport, or integrity, well I know another lemming has squeaked.

I met him once. It was on one my flights back from the CC Mexico race. He has always been quite entertaining and, it appears to me, very honest.
Even if he gets a few things wrong once in a while ... as Bob Dylan wrote once : I have forgotten more than you will ever know.

shaggy

#1123 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 02:38

I've met him before as well, at Long Beach, Laguna Seca. He's definitely a card, and fan friendly.

#1124 Slyder

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 16:12

Shifting gears, saw on the news a couple of days before that the American ethanol industry is right now almost in shreds. Back when the gas prices were jacked up sky-high, several farmers were getting paid top-dollar from big ethanol processing mills and companies for their corn. Then suddenly, the gas prices went down, and with it, the ethanol industries sudden boom. And its really bad, several companies have filed bankruptcy and breaking contracts with several farmers. The stupider ones which just made handshake deals were the first to suffer, but even the ones that have contracts with these companies are pretty much screwed as well since now, they (and the other ones) have been forced to sell their corn ultra-cheap, and at a loss.

So, Tony George, or whomever the bright bulb was that made the decision for him to forfeit American Ethanol support and switch to the Brazilian Ethanol industry surely made a wise move right there.

Although who knows how the Brazilian Ethanol Industry is down there anyways...

#1125 potmotr

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 16:14

Originally posted by Slyder
Shifting gears, saw on the news a couple of days before that the American ethanol industry is right now almost in shreds.


I think that's a good thing.

I find the concept of turning food into fuel completely obscene.

#1126 ensign14

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 16:20

Originally posted by potmotr
I find the concept of turning food into fuel completely obscene.

I do that three times per day.

#1127 HaydenFan

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 16:21

Originally posted by Slyder

So, Tony George, or whomever the bright bulb was that made the decision for him to forfeit American Ethanol support and switch to the Brazilian Ethanol industry surely made a wise move right there.


Tony does not have bright ideas. No light bulb ever goes off in his head.

This is what drove Tony to make his idea.

Posted Image

#1128 Slyder

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 16:24

Originally posted by HaydenFan


Tony does not have bright ideas. No light bulb ever goes off in his head.

This is what drove Tony to make his idea.

Posted Image


bright bulb that made decision for him=other person

In other words, his helper monkey...

#1129 aportinga

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 16:46

Originally posted by Slyder
Shifting gears, saw on the news a couple of days before that the American ethanol industry is right now almost in shreds. Back when the gas prices were jacked up sky-high, several farmers were getting paid top-dollar from big ethanol processing mills and companies for their corn. Then suddenly, the gas prices went down, and with it, the ethanol industries sudden boom. And its really bad, several companies have filed bankruptcy and breaking contracts with several farmers. The stupider ones which just made handshake deals were the first to suffer, but even the ones that have contracts with these companies are pretty much screwed as well since now, they (and the other ones) have been forced to sell their corn ultra-cheap, and at a loss.

So, Tony George, or whomever the bright bulb was that made the decision for him to forfeit American Ethanol support and switch to the Brazilian Ethanol industry surely made a wise move right there.

Although who knows how the Brazilian Ethanol Industry is down there anyways...


I actually think this was a good move which probably gives the series some revenue - certainly not enough for a Series Sponsor position however - which surprises me given all the hype a few months back on this.

Could a race in South America be next?

#1130 aportinga

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 16:46

Originally posted by ensign14

I do that three times per day.


AWESOME :up:

#1131 aportinga

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 16:53

The Indy Racing League remains confident that at least 22 cars will be on the grid for the 2009 IndyCar Series season - and is optimistic that last year's regular 26-car entry can be maintained despite the economic downturn.

There are currently 17 confirmed entries, with four cars from Andretti Green Racing, two apiece from Penske and Ganassi, and the Vision, Foyt, Dreyer & Reinbold, Panther, Newman/Haas/Lanigan, HVM, KV, Luczo Dragon and 3G teams all announcing one car each so far.

Several of the latter group are working on fielding additional cars, while Conquest, Dale Coyne, Pacific Coast and Rahal Letterman have yet to reveal their plans.

IRL commercial boss Terry Angstadt is confident that at least five more deals will be completed by the St Petersburg season-opener on April 5.

"I think we're looking at, I would say a low of 22 cars - and it could be 24 or 26," he said.

"We've got to have a couple things happen certainly to hit the high number. I think the low number is relatively secure. So we feel real good about that during this particular time.

"In a pretty tough time, I could not be more proud - of the drivers, of the teams, of the organisation - going forward."

But he added that the IRL would not provide any additional financial assistance to teams struggling to put programmes together, and confirmed that several of the incentive packages offered to ex-Champ Car teams last year had been withdrawn as planned, despite the changing economic situation.


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2 Series - 36 cars to 1 series which I believe will have no more then 18-22 cars.

AJ Foyt IV was canned from Vision - which is a riot considering His granpappies relation with Tony George.

Wow - the series owner down to 1 car??? :eek:

AGR is is propping up 4 cars - thank god for them!

#1132 aportinga

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 17:05

Since we were discussing Miller...

http://auto-racing.s...ruary-17th//P1/

#1133 aportinga

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 19:31

More marekting woes... Where is the SPGP?

It's IRL race weekend and you're in town in beautiful St Pete, Florida... What to do?

How about a cat show or Kenny G concert?

http://www.floridasbeach.com/events/

THIS is what is killing the series - and after 12 years I don't see any reason to think the lack of promotion will ever stop.


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#1134 B Squared

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 11:09

Cavin's Indy Star column from today. Coyne to announce line up next week.

http://www.indystar....6/1052/SPORTS01

Brian

#1135 red stick

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 12:05

The blog is kind of interesting too today. For example:

Question: How about we set aside all the negative surrounding open wheel racing these days and take a moment to look at the positive. What would be on your Top Ten list of good things to look forward to in 2009? (Curt, Columbus, Ind.)

Answer: Another competitive Indianapolis 500, Dario and Dixon as teammates, the chip on Wheldon's shoulder, the chip on Vitor's shoulder, Power in a Penske, Graham's second IndyCar season, Marco's key season, Danica driving in a contract year, Long Beach and Toronto.



Then there's the must-see IndyCar venues. Cavin's lauded Kansas over the years, and also lists Texas and Richmond, along with Milwaukee, as especially good. Anybody been to these races? Any advice?

#1136 aportinga

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 13:29

I've been to CART/CC races at Milwaukee and frankly I think the track is rather boring. As opposed to RA, this was the race we would typically bring friends and family and they were always equally bored.

As far as I am concerned if Wisconsin can only have 1 race it should be RA.

If your an oval fan and in the area - Chicagoland in Joliet is far better :up:

#1137 Slyder

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 14:34

For some strange reason, I've always liked Milwaukee. Sure it had its share of clunkers, but last year's race and the race in 2006 were very good. Plus its a traditional date, and I'd rather see one of them 1.5 mile cookie-cutter tracks out of there before Milwaukee.

And of course, BRING BACK ROAD AMERICA!!!

#1138 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 14:52

I reckon RA should be the week after Indianapolis, it would really show you the variety of the series.

#1139 aportinga

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 15:13

Yes - great idea!

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#1140 Slyder

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 15:31

Interesting you mention that Ross.

Last time they did that with a road course following Indy (I believe 2007 or 06) when they followed it with Watkins Glen, there were a lot of people out there that heavily criticized that move; Jeff Olson in particular wrote a scathing indictment against Tony George and the IRL for doing that.

I think it's got to do more with tradition than anything else as Milwaukee has always been after Indy, always. Not sure why, perhaps someone else can fill in the blanks, but if that's the case, then put RA right after Milwaukke the following week, since you're already in the Winsconsin area.

#1141 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 15:56

Originally posted by Slyder
Interesting you mention that Ross.

Last time they did that with a road course following Indy (I believe 2007 or 06) when they followed it with Watkins Glen, there were a lot of people out there that heavily criticized that move; Jeff Olson in particular wrote a scathing indictment against Tony George and the IRL for doing that.

I think it's got to do more with tradition than anything else as Milwaukee has always been after Indy, always. Not sure why, perhaps someone else can fill in the blanks, but if that's the case, then put RA right after Milwaukke the following week, since you're already in the Winsconsin area.


I thought the beef had something to do switching the cars over from Superspeedway/Road Course/Bullring which took massive thrashing by the crews and big dollars in parts to accomplish.

#1142 Crazy Canuck

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 17:07

Originally posted by aportinga

http://www.floridasbeach.com/events/


agreed, what a frickin disgrace.

CC

#1143 Jedi_F1

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 17:13

That calendar goes only till march 22,
St. Petersburg is on the april 5th weekend.

Can still be put on that list later... but you're wright if you say they need to do more!

#1144 AyePirate

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 17:56

Originally posted by Crazy Canuck


agreed, what a frickin disgrace.

CC


It's like

PUPPET SHOW &
SPINAL TAP


except they didn't even bother to list SPINAL TAP :lol:

The Albrecht Durer exhibit at the MFA looks like something I'd check out actually.

#1145 aportinga

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 18:19

Originally posted by Jedi_F1
That calendar goes only till march 22,
St. Petersburg is on the april 5th weekend.

Can still be put on that list later... but you're wright if you say they need to do more!


People make vacation plans earlier then that.

#1146 aportinga

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 18:19

Originally posted by Crazy Canuck


agreed, what a frickin disgrace.

CC


I imagine the Kenny G fans will be pissed they were not notified that Dan Wheldon is going to be in town.

#1147 Slyder

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 19:17

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII


I thought the beef had something to do switching the cars over from Superspeedway/Road Course/Bullring which took massive thrashing by the crews and big dollars in parts to accomplish.


Yeah, that was the argument. I remember now.

WOnder if that is still sound today considering today's economy?

#1148 red stick

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 19:29

Originally posted by Slyder
And of course, BRING BACK ROAD AMERICA!!!


I don't think there's any dissent on this point. And the sooner the better.

#1149 aportinga

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 19:47

I was led to believe that there is a pretty big rift between RA and IRL management. I cannot confirm that however. Perhaps someone else can.

That place is just phenomenal!

#1150 D82

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 20:13

Originally posted by HaydenFan
Seems Doornbos will most likely not be driving with Newman Haas Lanigan Racing in 2009 as the whole story was nothing more than another false statement by Robin Miller.

He has signed with NHL. The sponsorship is yet to be announced.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/73370