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#251 pingu666

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 21:59

Originally posted by aportinga

Sure would be nice if...

1. TG put Cotman in control.
2. TG told Honda and Dallara that for 09 all bets are off.
3. Subsequently canceled Motegi forever!
4. Handed over the 93 Cosi engines to teams for free - they only pay service charges to Cosi - KK makes money.
5. Opened up the chassis to anything which passes oval and road going tests - Reynard/Lola/Dallara/DP01.
6. Added Road America, Michigan International, Gateway and Cleveland while nixing Belle Island, Mid Ohio, Homestead and Iowa.

I can see some CC fans coming on board then. [/B]


they need honda for money and other stuff i bet
the teams would need to reinvest and reengineer chassis's etc, the time todo that was last year, if there was was time todo that, but there wasnt...

if they opened up chassis then the current IRL teams would probably be disadvantaged.... if you could somehobble the old champ car cars then maybe then you could run them like p2-p1 in ALMS

more circuits is always good. id try to add a leg like mexico > brazil/argintina > south africa > asia mainland > montagi > suzuka > surfers

and go race at mosport and giles gp track too. :)

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#252 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 04:24

Q: Is IRL profitable as a stand-alone business?

George: Not yet.

Q: In 2013?

George: It has to be or there won’t be a 2013.

Hilarious.
Since 1995 the irl has not made a dime.
Now TG's plan is to shut it down in five years if it doesn't make him money?
Now there is a vision.
No Indianpolis 500. :
Excellent reason for anyone buying into the coming 2010 irl formula, buy rolling stock and have no use for it 2 years later unless the race series owner makes money.
TG, he's a Mensa, and a great salesman!

#253 aportinga

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 14:34

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#254 Keir

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 16:24

:rotfl: :rolleyes:

YET, no one will come forward to try to do a better job !!

The racing team owners are useless, CART showed us that.

The track owners are in the racing business to make money and have been doing so for many years. The reason they make money is because they don't fool themselves into thinking they can make a profit out of running a racing series.

Continue to mock Tony George and while you're doing so, take a long look around and see who is willing to spend their own money to float a racing series ..... NOBODY !

Who, beside Tony George, is looking for title sponsors ..... NOBODY !

When all these NOBODIES have no viable open wheel series in which to compete, who will they blame ??

Gee, I guess like all the other morons, they'll blame Tony George.

#255 aportinga

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 16:44

Originally posted by Keir
:rotfl: :rolleyes:

YET, no one will come forward to try to do a better job !!

The racing team owners are useless, CART showed us that.

The track owners are in the racing business to make money and have been doing so for many years. The reason they make money is because they don't fool themselves into thinking they can make a profit out of running a racing series.

Continue to mock Tony George and while you're doing so, take a long look around and see who is willing to spend their own money to float a racing series ..... NOBODY !

Who, beside Tony George, is looking for title sponsors ..... NOBODY !

When all these NOBODIES have no viable open wheel series in which to compete, who will they blame ??

Gee, I guess like all the other morons, they'll blame Tony George.



CCWS came along and tried - fail (we assume KK and GF did not want to spend any more of their money)

Yes - Racing Team Owners historically are corrupt and only serve to their own benefit - not to that of the series (historically). I would argue that CCWS managed to initiate a good deal of unity their first and mid-way through their second season. That however fell apart when communication stopped from CCWS to the teams and eventually Cottman left.

Now the Team Owners have to work for the better of the series - because TG has proven - with clarity, that he, BB, TA and others are NOT capable of running on their own - witness the recent firing up of team oraganizing just last month - looks like CART all over again.

Track Owners making money because they are not fools - we agree.

Mocking TG??? He's had 13 years to turn a profit. People like you were claiming that comments from an independant reporter in 2005 which stipulated that TG had spent to that point $250,000,000 to keep the league alive were garbage. This seems to prove that they were pretty spot on.

BTW - Ben Johnston had a court date and time to recieve 93 Cosworth engines which - along with a handful of DP01 and Reynards, he had planned on using in a glorified club series. He had a vision and desire to make something of it. Funny how KK came in to outbid BJ 3 X fold for all 93 power plants which will probably end up collecting dust for eternity... More kill the competition instead of building a better product from 16th & Georgetown.

As far as who the moron is... I would say that after 13 years of being in business - having the biggest names, teams and race and STILL not posting a profit, that the person you should be looking at is TG and TG alone.

#256 Keir

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 18:39

Tony George and Tony George alone ! That's the problem ! With all and sundry against him !

Biting the hand that feeds them ..... That's moronic !

#257 qwazy

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 18:55

Damn... We already know what this thread will now degenerate to for the next 3-5 pages.

Nice talking to some of you!

#258 red stick

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 19:00

Well, it IS December. At least the "discussion" generates heat, if not a whole lot of light.  ;)

#259 aportinga

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 20:27

Originally posted by qwazy
Damn... We already know what this thread will now degenerate to for the next 3-5 pages.

Nice talking to some of you!


Oh Bullshit!

Not profitable after 13 years is a legit topic. If people want to rationalize that then fine. I played nice with Keir this time around.

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#260 Jim Thurman

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 00:22

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII
Q: Is IRL profitable as a stand-alone business?

George: Not yet.

Q: In 2013?

George: It has to be or there won’t be a 2013.

OMG, he's going to destroy the world on December 31, 2012.

He must be stopped!

#261 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 00:43

Originally posted by Jim Thurman

OMG, he's going to destroy the world on December 31, 2012.

He must be stopped!

Actually, Honda may do it for him before that.
Pretty hard to justify the irl when you just cut out the F1 program....

#262 Jones Foyer

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 00:51

Originally posted by Jim Thurman

OMG, he's going to destroy the world on December 31, 2012.

He must be stopped!



:rotfl:

Thanks, I needed that today.

#263 TwoCents

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 00:51

Originally posted by qwazy
Damn... We already know what this thread will now degenerate to for the next 3-5 pages.

Nice talking to some of you!


Exactly. It's the same people all over again (and we know who they are) who spoil thread after indycar thread. Yawn. Wish they would just bugger off to and stay in the IRL hate thread elsewhere where they can get off on their hate for TG and their irrational ideas and leave the IndyCar/OW supporters in this thread in peace.

Thank you. Wake me up when they have gone and we can have a decent discussion again in this thread.

#264 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 05:54

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII

Actually, Honda may do it for him before that.
Pretty hard to justify the irl when you just cut out the F1 program....


If you cut off your team subsidies and charge for engines...

#265 pingu666

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 09:18

how much is a irl engine anyways?

#266 B Squared

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 09:38

From this mornings Indy Star:http://www.indystar....7/1052/SPORTS01

#267 Crazy Canuck

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 14:38

Originally posted by B Squared
From this mornings Indy Star:http://www.indystar....7/1052/SPORTS01


Thansk for the link...but unfortunatly, nothing new there.

CC

#268 aportinga

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 15:51

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


If you cut off your team subsidies and charge for engines...


Subsidies for teams are over in 09.

As far as the cost of power I have read it's just over a mil for service and hardware - including the engine. I cannot say that I am 100% accurate on that however.

With the world economy in the shitter the IRL - and F1 (IMO) are in very vulnerable positions - F1 because of sheer greed and the IRL from a complete lack of real business management. NASCAR has enough in reserve (something the IRL will never get to based on profit which is ultimately driven by good business) to manuvour and make changes to entitlements - something I think BE will NOT do with all that money in the Far and Middle East at his door.

We're in for interesting times for sure. I wonder how well the Atlantics are placed - low cost, low overhead, relatively new chassis and a well developed engine for a multitude of purposes - namely marketing to the consumer market. The CCWS fans follow the series and they just got on board with SPEED for a multi-year contract. Additionally they upload the races to their web site for those who cannot watch on the TV.

Could we return back to a format when Race on Sunday and Sell on Monday returns? Homologation is already on tap - or appears to be for F1, NASCAR is just a ruling away from it. CCWS had it and the IRL does as well. But what platform has more of a flavor which can translate to the consumer market? If Mazda were to utilize Atlanitc as a test bed to develop high power, efficient 4/6 cylinder engines - and maybe even a more efficient rotary, that could easily move from the proving and marketing grounds (Atlantic) to the showroom floor - Mazda dealerships...

The IRL is 3 years from this - a position which I am willing to bet anyone a MaCallan 45 that they will never get to (new engine/chassis). NASCAR would look like furry cheese eaters if they reduced the current configuration this sort of platform. Even if they tried it would take enourmous cash to develop an all-american V-8 which is efficient in terms of road going numbers. F1 (IMO) will take the money from their new friends and run - leaving more fans in legacy areas pissed off - even more.

I am not saying look out - here comes the Atlantics. No way! They will remain a sort of SCCA level series but at this point in time are sitting pretty. They don't have to prove anything to anyone, have a good link with ALMS, power which is more reflective of were the States needs to be from a consumer stand point and a decent marketing platform with SPEED. Looks like of all the mess in the US over the last 13 years that they will be just fine.

#269 Keir

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 15:52

Let's play even nicer.

Beside Bernie, who has made a profit running an open wheel series ???

I think I came up with the answer earlier ?

It's, it's ..... N O B O D Y !!

Oh, and by the way, Bernie runs F1, the top of the heap, the apex, the king of all hills and they collectively are having finance problems.

The IndyCar Series is still intrenched in "State Fair" mentality USA. Our corporate pockets get tighter by the second and as I have said earlier ..... YOU CAN"T MAKE MONEY IN OPEN WHEEL RACING - PERIOD !

#270 aportinga

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 16:20

Originally posted by Keir
Let's play even nicer.

Beside Bernie, who has made a profit running an open wheel series ???

I think I came up with the answer earlier ?

It's, it's ..... N O B O D Y !!

Oh, and by the way, Bernie runs F1, the top of the heap, the apex, the king of all hills and they collectively are having finance problems.

The IndyCar Series is still intrenched in "State Fair" mentality USA. Our corporate pockets get tighter by the second and as I have said earlier ..... YOU CAN"T MAKE MONEY IN OPEN WHEEL RACING - PERIOD !


Deal - ignor me if I act up.

CART made a profit from 1992 - 1998. That's it. But CART was destined to fail based on corruption and a severe neglect of venue owners - especially when they shit on the States in their bid to take on F1. At that point it was over.

However many people like myself however argued that just because TG was born into the family - does not mean he can run a business. 13 years later I think we have not only proven that but also proven that he has surrouonded himself with people in power who lack the same basic business skills he does. Let's face it had this been a corporation they would have all been fired long ago.

Why not put Cottman in charge? He has shitloads of respect from all levels. Personally I believe the current mgt is fearful that he may take the CART II initiative (basically making the IRL into CART with more road and street courses - as well as foriegn courses) too fast thus displacing even more of the original fan base and making TG look more like he's full of shit from the start. But why wait??? Is it worth tanking the series anymore? Shit - lets fess up, fire the right people and hire the right people and go racing. Why wait until 2011 for changes??? Higher an engineering staff and bring in the Reynard, Lola and DP01 - the former 2 available everywhere for less the $40k - all of which can take Cosi power. Additionally with Honda subsidies gone for 09 bring in an option to run the Cosworth Turbo engines - KK now owns 93 which could be refurbed and put in place at a fraction of cost compared to what Honda charges.

Again - too fast. :rolleyes:

IMO Audi and Volkswagon are a pipe dream - Hey Robin Miller - another bottle bet of MaCallan on that if you like . The IRL in 2011 will either look the same or by 2012 we'll see drastic changes in management (TG stays) and the absorbtion of those elements mentioned in the paragraph above. THEN I would be on board as would many other fans as well - it would truely be a unified series.

Two things stand in the way of this "natural progression"

1. With no reserve and costs even higher can the IRL withstand the economic downturn?
2. With Versus - a relatively no name channel can the IRL withstand the abandonment of probably more then 3/4 of major sponsors as a result of ratings which will be between 0-1.3 at best. And as a result look for the Indy 500 ratings to continue to decline.

Personally as long as the BY400 is there to pay into TG's coffers I think they can make it to 2011 - that is if TG's sisters do not pull the plug first.

#271 Keir

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 16:45

From a fan perspective, I don't care what engines power an IndyCar or what chassis is used.
I'd like to see multiple chassis/engines. I'd also like to be a multi billionaire !!

The question is, How much will switching away from the current cars cost ??

From a former owner/racer perspective, it just isn't that simple to bolt in a new engine not designed for the chassis. It may eventually come to that, but not yet.

It seems to me as if CART/IndyCar/CCWS have tried to copy F1 without the billions of dollars that F1 spends.

IndyCar, in order to be truly successful, needs, at least, a five year, "no major tech change period" with a reliable source of mutiple chassis/engine suppliers. I know it sounds like "F1 lite", but this is where all open wheel racing is headed.

And as far as where the races should be contested - stay "Incountry". Travel costs must be kept to a minimum. Going back a few lines, IndyCar CANNOT compete with F1, not now nor could any of it's precedents.
Give the series some sort of identity, it really does not have one now.

#272 pingu666

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 17:53

why did champ car ditch the raynards and lolas in the first place?

#273 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 18:04

Originally posted by pingu666
why did champ car ditch the raynards and lolas in the first place?

Those chassis were a bit outdated after so long in use every series needs to update every now and then and I spose Panoz gave them the best offer.

#274 B Squared

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 18:51

"Thansk for the link...but unfortunatly, nothing new there." CC

Sorry, I guess I must have missed the upcoming test being discussed in the thread.

Brian

#275 aportinga

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 22:15

Originally posted by Keir


It seems to me as if CART/IndyCar/CCWS have tried to copy F1 without the billions of dollars that F1 spends.


Looks like F1 is now copying ChampCar - see Cosworth thread.

I am betting that the platform for F1 is the Cosi engines KK just bid more then 3 times the dollar for against Ben Johnston. Those are the 93 ChampCar engines and the strandard 900HP V8 Turbos which powered CC in 2007.

#276 B Squared

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 11:26

From this mornings Indy Star. Here's hoping it is accepted with CC's approval

http://www.indystar....7/1052/SPORTS01

http://blogs.indysta...m/racingexpert/

Brian

#277 red stick

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 12:50

I wouldn't worry about it. It's December. Robin Miller's last two mailbags have been largely rants and counterrants. Any nuggets of real news are appreciated.

The Honda article is worth posting in full:

December 6, 2008
Honda will stay in IRL
By Curt Cavin curt.cavin@indystar.com

Honda's decision to withdraw from Formula One will have no bearing on its participation in the Indy Racing League, according to a statement released Friday by the company's U.S. motor sports arm.

"It is unfortunate that current global economic challenges have necessitated the cessation of Honda's participation in Formula One racing," said the statement from Honda Performance Development in Santa Clarita, Calif. "However, Honda's U.S.-based motor sports activities are expected to continue in 2009 . . . and beyond."

Honda has been involved in CART or the IndyCar Series since 1994 and is committed to supplying engines to IndyCar teams through 2010. Honda officials have been involved in talks with the IRL in shaping engine configurations that take effect in 2011.

There are fundamental differences between how Honda's F-1 and IndyCar programs are structured. Honda owns, operates and funds its two-car F-1 program; it leases engines to IRL teams through HPD.

"HPD is charged with making money; it is a revenue-generating company," said Mark Johnson, the general manager of Indianapolis-based KV Racing Technology, an IndyCar team that uses Honda engines. "Honda's Formula One team is the only one (in the series) without a sponsor, and it is funded internally. It spends money."

The investment in the F-1 program is estimated at nearly $300 million annually. The IRL's program has been described as "self-sustaining," with expenses incurred offset by revenue from leasing engines to teams for $1 million per season.

Honda also supports, under its Acura badge, the American Le Mans Series. It has two Indianapolis-based teams: De Ferran Motorsports and Fernandez Racing.


(And incidently, your sparring with Buford aside, isn't it interesting how TNF and Racing Comments are on the same forum, but in decidedly different worlds. . .  ;) )

#278 PhilG

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 13:01

Originally posted by red stick
I wouldn't worry about it. It's December. Robin Miller's last two mailbags have been largely rants and counterrants. Any nuggets of real news are appreciated.

The Honda article is worth posting in full:



(And incidently, your sparring with Buford aside, isn't it interesting how TNF and Racing Comments are on the same forum, but in decidedly different worlds. . .  ;) )


I'm glad to read that, i'm off Xmas shopping now off the back of it.

#279 B Squared

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 14:37

"And incidently, your sparring with Buford aside, isn't it interesting how TNF and Racing Comments are on the same forum, but in decidedly different worlds. . ."

Mark - I'm not quite sure if, or why, you are directing this comment towards me. I think Buford's "sparring partner" is actually fines. I agree with Buford on the RACING ASPECTS & the state of IndyCar in 1995 and the status it had attained especially with Mansell's arrival in '93. I was there, at the tracks, I didn't dream it up in my mind. The atmosphere was electric. The racing was awesome. The crowds were great. I still have the Indy Star newspapers in which day after day Robin Miller was echoing so many of my own thoughts as well as those of Buford's (I think) after the IRL was announced. My thought is that the difference is, for my own sanity, I finally just had to let it go. Hence my unwillingness to take issue with Michael's (fines) interpretation. Good on for him, I have nothing but respect regarding his fact based historic knowledge. I don't see any point in unending arguments that don't change a darn thing. We are with this sport as it is, at this point in time. I want to look forward to a future that maybe, somehow can see IndyCar pull itself out of the abyss. Rehashing 1996 to present, day in day out will do nothing to address that, even in a Nostalgia Forum.

Brian

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#280 red stick

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 15:06

Agreed.

And yes, on further review it looks like Buford is sparring more with Michael--although when you fire the shotgun he does the target, apart from TG, is sometimes difficult to discern.

#281 Crazy Canuck

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 15:38

Originally posted by B Squared
From this mornings Indy Star. Here's hoping it is accepted with CC's approval

http://www.indystar....7/1052/SPORTS01

http://blogs.indysta...m/racingexpert/

Brian


Approved ;)

thanks for the links...good news in there!

CC

#282 Keir

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 16:19

Like with most things F1, looks are deceiving.

Bernie has put forth the "spec Cossie" to stimulate the Manufacturers into coming up with better ideas.

Mercedes, Toyota, Renault, BMW and Ferrari aren't going to plug a spec Cossie into their cars.
That Cossie deal may end up powering some "back of the grid" field fillers, but never a full grid. Those days are over. At least in F1.

#283 pingu666

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 16:41

the f1 spec cossie unit isnt the champ car v8, its the old f1 v8 that williams used, but updated...

maybe kk will try to lease the engines to that greenprix series?

#284 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 16:55

Originally posted by Keir

Mercedes, Toyota, Renault, BMW and Ferrari aren't going to plug a spec Cossie into their cars.
That Cossie deal may end up powering some "back of the grid" field fillers, but never a full grid. Those days are over. At least in F1.

Of course they are not going to, much as in the heyday of USOW racing, Mercedes, Toyota and Honda copied the spec engine. Bernie is proposing a spec engine, available to all at a low cost, that others may copy if they so wish. It's one of the first good ideas that Bernie has come up with.
I don't however like the idea of customer cars or spec trannys.
You go down that road and you might as well run DP01's with Cosworths ans call it CCWS MkII

#285 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 17:00

Spec engines and transmissions wouldn't bother me in the slightest, we have that already because there's only so many ways to do a 2.4l V8

Keep a bit of variety in the cars and Im a happy bunny.

Maybe a new mfg will see the wisdom in the Cosworth mills and offer to badge them to help with development and maintenance costs.

#286 Keir

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 18:32

The spec Cossie in question is a V10.

#287 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 18:46

How can it be a V10?

#288 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 18:57

Thought this was the Indycar thread :p

#289 anbeck

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 22:05

No way it's the V10. The V8 Williams used is the only engine left that is homologated under current rules and could be run without forcing the other teams to make new V10s (which would really be silly).

Well... IndyCar. Ten years ago it was always good to have a good race in the evening if F1 had been disappointing or too much politics. To think that Indy is in a worse shape than F1 is today is really frightening!

#290 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 23:40

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Spec engines and transmissions wouldn't bother me in the slightest, we have that already because there's only so many ways to do a 2.4l V8

Keep a bit of variety in the cars and Im a happy bunny.


I could go for spec tranny internals only if the chassis manufacturer had say over thier own suspension mount points. In a modern formula car the tranny is intregal to the chassis (duh)
I want deriviation between the cars, hence the common tranny is a problem with me, sequential 7 speed internals, no problem, rear drive gear settings per car, again no problem.
As for individual chassis tuning, I'd like for the per circuit aero to disappear. It's called Formula racing for a reason, much as sailing is. Find a formula of square surface per rear and front aero wings to work within and quit casting scores of wings to play with in the wind tunnel.
Aero R&D is way over the top in F1 and has resulted in some butt ugly solutions. JMHO.

#291 red stick

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 19:31

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII
Aero R&D is way over the top in F1 and has resulted in some butt ugly solutions. JMHO.


I'm sure everyone has their personal favorite, but as "aesthetically challenged" as the Indy Car Dallaras may be, nothing to me is as unspeakably ugly as the rare combination of shapes, add-ons and liveries that the last two McLarens have been.

#292 B Squared

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 10:54

From todays Indy Star. A few rays of light in the article, I guess:"IRL teams avoiding job cuts"

http://www.indystar....S0107/812090349

Brian

#293 Keir

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 14:40

Sorry about the tangent !

..... but to clarify, The new, as yet to be built, spec F1 engine is a V10. I don't know why, ask Bernie.

Now back to Indy !

#294 red stick

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 14:48

Originally posted by B Squared
From todays Indy Star. A few rays of light in the article, I guess:"IRL teams avoiding job cuts"

http://www.indystar....S0107/812090349

Brian


Given the other news of the past week in ALMS and F1, we'll take whatever mild encouragement we can get!

Nice to know that KV is adding staff and Coyne is "in hiring mode." Not so encouraging about Rahal-Letterman.

#295 B Squared

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 10:08

Lifted from this mornings Indy Star. A confirmation, for a change.

E.J. Viso has been confirmed to return to HVM Racing's IndyCar Series team. . . . Indianapolis Motor Speedway is having one of its quieter winters as far as construction goes. The only major project is the last stage of a three-year restoration of the Northwest Vista and the repaving of some campus roads, according to Kevin Forbes, the director of engineering.

Brian

#296 aportinga

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 13:15

2 of the 5 manufactures at the table are out - Mazda and Porsche. Alfa is fluff by Robim Miller period.

Honda has stated it will not compete if the engine platform eliminated V8 production - why? Because they sell the engines and support @ $1.3 mill per and then walk away. It could easily be argued that there is just not enough ROI to justify completely changing the entire configuration - too many costs for too little in return.

The IRL has seemingly commited to I4 Turbo engines. This would indicate that Honda is gone by 2011. And while KIA has recently (publically) stated interest in the league - based on the I4T platform, I highly doubt that AUDI will find it at all the least interesting competing against KIA.

#297 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 13:21

You generally don't mention your rivals when you win, just that you win.

#298 aportinga

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 13:48

True but Audi has always wanted to compete against other manufactures - hence ALMS. It's also the reason why that - even though they are pulling the plug on that project, they will still be present for LeMans.

IMO I cannot see Audi finding as much value as Honda has. I cannot see Honda investing money on a new enginge. And more to the point - I cannot see where the demographic for the IRL resembles anything near to what Audi is selling.

#299 Dudley

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 10:47

Originally posted by aportinga
True but Audi has always wanted to compete against other manufactures - hence ALMS. It's also the reason why that - even though they are pulling the plug on that project, they will still be present for LeMans.


Strange, as soon as they had someone to compete against they ran away from the ALMS...

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#300 pingu666

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 14:10

honda might invest in a different config, just depends how much needs tobe invested