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IndyCar 2009 (merged)


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#301 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 19:38

Originally posted by aportinga
2 of the 5 manufactures at the table are out - Mazda and Porsche. Alfa is fluff by Robim Miller period.

Honda has stated it will not compete if the engine platform eliminated V8 production - why? Because they sell the engines and support @ $1.3 mill per and then walk away. It could easily be argued that there is just not enough ROI to justify completely changing the entire configuration - too many costs for too little in return.

The IRL has seemingly commited to I4 Turbo engines. This would indicate that Honda is gone by 2011. And while KIA has recently (publically) stated interest in the league - based on the I4T platform, I highly doubt that AUDI will find it at all the least interesting competing against KIA.

I wonder if the fact that Audi/VW have an excellent I4 Turbo in production cars would sway them into being a supplier (especially if you also allow their DSG gearbox)?

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#302 indyracefan

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 04:36

...of course the economy worldwide will provide an easy excuse for both TG and the auto manufacturer's. Perhaps the lack of manufacturer support in building the engines will force the IRL IndyCar Series to re-think it's mandate on requiring motors to be badged by an auto manufacturer.

If not for the whole series then at least for the Indianapolis 500 the rules should allow anyone who wishes to build a motor within specs enter. Regardless if it's an auto manufacturer or just an engine builder. And on that note it should also allow for any chassis builder as well. I realize a single chassis is an attempt to maintain costs and provide a semi-even playing field, as well as why there is currently only one engine manufacturer. However this lack of innovation by teams goes against everything that made the Indianapolis 500 one of the premiere racing events.

Sorry for rambling and deviating from the topic.

#303 aportinga

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 17:12

Who needs F1?


George also sees opportunities in the long term, such as two IndyCar Series seasons.

"In 2013, we'll be through our Centennial Era and our new technical package will have been introduced for a couple of years," George said. "I think you'll continue to see a predominantly North American-based championship. I think 16 to 20 races for what we do now is a comfortable number. I know there will be opportunities for us to do some more international outreach, whether it's through licensing or actually taking our product and creating a winter season.

"Drivers want to drive every week and if the operating budgets and sponsorships we depend on are there I think you could see us do as many as 22, 24 races a year. Or you could see something like ALMS has done in licensing our specifications, our name and brand for a European schedule."



http://www.indycar.c...?story_id=12907

I wonder if International expansion is okay now since it's not CART/ChampCar and now the IRL?

I am sure the small teams will LOVE this statement by the way. Any takers on whether the newly found organization of team owners will be discussing this during their next round? Could we seen yet another take over by the teams and ousting of ownership as we saw with CART vs USAC?

Two things...

1) What is the true value of the Indy 500 to these teams when the rest of the series is worthless from a ROI poerspective?

2. How long does TG have - making mistakes before the teams (unified) start making demands?

#304 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 20:35

Originally posted by aportinga
Who needs F1?

I wonder if International expansion is okay now since it's not CART/ChampCar and now the IRL?


Heh
I think it would be more fun than a barrel of monkeys that if given the choice between two series of the same spec, owners and sponsors would elect to run the international series and forgo the US based, oval heavy US swing.
That is if a new spec ever develops, which is looking more doubtful by the day.

#305 Buford

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 01:08

Doesn't take a shotgun approach to identify who ruined Indy car racing although the guy who is responsible should stand in front of one. Record series profits in 1995, record team and series sponsorship, record track attendance, record TV ratings season wide, record driver retainers, worldwide interest and status, the most successful Indy cars had ever been since 1911 in every category. All on the historical record and indisputable.

But one man thought he needed to fix it, there was something wrong. The result is on the record now too. 13 straight years of series monetary losses, all of the above things long gone, and now the final 5 year program (after the failure of the previous ones) is to close it in 5 years if the Sperm Weasel still has to pay for it out of his own pocket since he ran off 5 million fans. Aww poor baby. The boycott continues. Never another dime for Tony George. His financial losses are his legacy. The man who killed Indy Cars. The marketplace has spoken. He took what was the best ever and turned it into total failure and 18 straight years of financial losses will kill it. I am long past fearing TG was taking the sport down. Done deal. Piss on him. Piss on the sport. I won't miss it at all. Not the putrid IRL version. I miss what we had before Tony George and his Lemmings destroyed the sport.

#306 John Morrison

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 06:03

Quit living in the past Buford. I could care less what goes behind the track and just care what's on track. Better off without your whiney loser self. In life there are winners and losers you dude are a loser continue on your bitter rants. Fear the future and be jealous.

#307 anbeck

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 09:45

Originally posted by John Morrison
In life there are winners and losers


I'm still trying to figure out who is the winner of the take-o.... merger. Is it TG, who now has 3 more cars on the grid?

Or maybe it's really the ChampCar teams, and I just don't have the right point of view.

Eureka, I've figured it out: it's the guys who live close to nearly every traditional American non-Oval race circuit, who can now live in silence for 365 days a year without their BBQ being interrupted by engine-noise!

a.

#308 Buford

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 11:15

Originally posted by John Morrison
Quit living in the past Buford. I could care less what goes behind the track and just care what's on track. Better off without your whiney loser self. In life there are winners and losers you dude are a loser continue on your bitter rants. Fear the future and be jealous.


Can't refute a single thing I have presented can you? Typical Internet Nimrod response to actual on the record facts - call it a rant so it can thus be ignored by those who are blind, deaf, and dumb. The last ditch desperate bastion of those who can't defend a failed policy or program. Claim all those who would hold those who caused the failure to account are living in the past and the damn fool who caused the problem is not the loser but those who would hold him accountable are... lol.

Yeah right - did you ever take a logic course to get that GED? In other words nobody can be ever held accountable for failure in lemming world? Because to do so is "living in the past?" Fear the future? Will it be anything like the last 13 years of financial and artistic failure from the plan that was supposed to save the sport (from record success) or will there be a surprise that will change something that will bring back the millions of former fans that totally rejected the con job of the IRL 1996 through 2008? Never made a dime in 13 years after the tantrum and lost untold millions. Yet the year before the sanctioning body and Indy 500 had never been more successful. But its all living in the past - yes on the record history is kinda like that lol. History is not valid because it is living in the past??? Bet you believe in Creationism too huh sport? The loser is you and all of you who bought the scam of Tony George.

#309 rghojai

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 12:00

The issue's not so much one of winners and losers, more one of your vitriol getting tiresome. You act like the man killed your beloved dog and beat your child to death with the bloody corpse.

Even those of us who haven't been here that long, aren't here that often, we could about retire to a life of wealth if we had a dollar for every one of your rants that we've seen--rants that are remarkably similar.

Your point is clear. Your point has been clear.

Yes, we know you think TG should have knitting needles jammed in his eyes before he's fed to rabid wolverines.

Might you consider giving it a rest?

#310 TwoCents

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 12:30

Yawn - oh have we arrived at this stage yet? A typical IndyCar thread starts and ends like this:

starts hopeful new IndyCar thread

serious and interesting discussion

triumphantly brings up a newsbit from page 56 in the local paper citing doom and gloom, as proof that indycar will never succeed because of evil Tony George. He would like to go back to the glory days of ChampCar circa 2007, when everything was a lot better, ah if only we could go back to those days and everything would be fine.

agrees and expresses more hate towards Tony George. Wants ChampCar 2007 back too so he can use his life-long seat at Long Beach which he gave up out of principle when the merge happened.

tries to bring the thread back on topic.

agressive reply, brings up another newsbit 'proving' Tony George is indeed the bastard son of the devil.

why are they wasting their time on ovals anyway, haha they only go round in circles.

argue with

brings up Danica Patrick and says he would do her.

feebly tries to bring the thread back on topic.

rant rant rant Tony George is evil and destroyed the whole world, lemmings, more lemmings.

arguing ensues.

closes thread due to too much blood spattering and general trolling and violence.

:wave:

#311 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 13:09

Could those who want to discuss Tony George and his involvement do it in their own thread and keep this one for those who want to discuss Indy Car racing in 09?

#312 aportinga

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 13:31

Originally posted by anbeck


I'm still trying to figure out who is the winner of the take-o.... merger. Is it TG, who now has 3 more cars on the grid?

Or maybe it's really the ChampCar teams, and I just don't have the right point of view.

Eureka, I've figured it out: it's the guys who live close to nearly every traditional American non-Oval race circuit, who can now live in silence for 365 days a year without their BBQ being interrupted by engine-noise!

a.


Lossers
- IRL Core fan base
- IRL Vision (all of them)
- ChampCar fans
- AJ Foyt (The asshole who started this entire thing)
- ChampCar creditors.
- Some of the nations best venues such as Road America, Portland, Cleveland - and an array of oval waste left behind after the IRL moved in and took over - MIS etc...
- Biggest one of them all - INDY500!!!


Winners
- KK & GF who no longer have to subsidize a series.
- Key Liquidators who have held the majority of team auctions.
- Lawyers.

#313 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 13:31

Originally posted by wewantourdarbyback
Could those who want to discuss Tony George and his involvement do it in their own thread and keep this one for those who want to discuss Indy Car racing in 09?


Try visting trackforum.
Any views not supportive of TG's folly are immediately deleted and the poster banned for life.
Unfortunately, for you I guess, this is the Atlas F1 board where opposing views are de riguer.
The facts as I see them is that there are far more members on this board that could give a rat's ass about indy,some posters here are old enough to know just how badly TG screwed the pooch and are not afraid to say so, and finally a smattering of indycar fans whose general responce is to shout down anyone who wants to laugh at the TG folly out loud.
The irl as it is today, and will be in the future, is a contentious issue, deal with it, or go find an indy uber alles only board where group hugs are the order of the day.

BTW, how are those engine negotiations going?
How many manufacturers are still interested?
How's the new chassis design team coming along?
And who has been blessed to be the only supplier?

#314 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 13:33

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII


Try visting trackforum.
Any views not supportive of TG's folly are immediately deleted and the poster banned for life.
Unfortunately, for you I guess, this is the Atlas F1 board where opposing views are de riguer.
The facts as I see them is that there are far more members on this board that could give a rat's ass about indy,some posters here are old enough to know just how badly TG screwed the pooch and are not afraid to say so, and finally a smattering of indycar fans whose general responce is to shout down anyone who wants to laugh at the TG folly out loud.
The irl as it is today, and will be in the future, is a contentious issue, deal with it, or go find an indy uber alles only board where group hugs are the order of the day.

BTW, how are those engine negotiations going?
How many manufacturers are still interested?
How's the new chassis design team coming along?
And who has been blessed to be the only supplier?

You take my point wrongly, I agree about George, he's ruining the sport, but that would be better served a matter with it's own thread, allowing those of us who don't want a heated debate on the topic and want to talk about the racing to do so.

#315 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 13:36

Originally posted by John Morrison
Fear the future and be jealous.


Actually, I believe it was TG who was fearing the future when he said if doesn't make any money, the irl is gone in 2013.

#316 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 13:46

Originally posted by indyracefan
Perhaps the lack of manufacturer support in building the engines will force the IRL IndyCar Series to re-think it's mandate on requiring motors to be badged by an auto manufacturer.


This is one of those things I simply don't get since it seems so short-sighted and out of synch with reality.

Originally posted by John Morrison
I could care less what goes behind the track and just care what's on track.


Which means that are missing the majority of what is going on in racing.

#317 aportinga

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 13:59

Originally posted by TwoCents
Yawn - oh have we arrived at this stage yet? A typical IndyCar thread starts and ends like this:

starts hopeful new IndyCar thread

serious and interesting discussion

triumphantly brings up a newsbit from page 56 in the local paper citing doom and gloom, as proof that indycar will never succeed because of evil Tony George. He would like to go back to the glory days of ChampCar circa 2007, when everything was a lot better, ah if only we could go back to those days and everything would be fine.

agrees and expresses more hate towards Tony George. Wants ChampCar 2007 back too so he can use his life-long seat at Long Beach which he gave up out of principle when the merge happened.

tries to bring the thread back on topic.

agressive reply, brings up another newsbit 'proving' Tony George is indeed the bastard son of the devil.

why are they wasting their time on ovals anyway, haha they only go round in circles.

argue with

brings up Danica Patrick and says he would do her.

feebly tries to bring the thread back on topic.

rant rant rant Tony George is evil and destroyed the whole world, lemmings, more lemmings.

arguing ensues.

closes thread due to too much blood spattering and general trolling and violence.

:wave:


Don't fallter yourself. I think the mods are just as annoyed with both ends.

With regards to newbits - check the title of the thread, my posts are all relevant. And with regard to my views on CC, perhaps you should do a bit more research before you assume. You'd find that I think CART started this mess by going after F1 and neglecting core venues, teams and sponsors in the States. Sure we needed an adjustment - but not Tony George.

Furthermore I would be able to at least watch if the IRL opened the door to the Reynard, Lola and Panoz - providing they pass safety tests. I would be even more willing to watch if they allowed the Cosi V8t back in the mix as well. Although this would raise costs for the IRL to manage it would lower the cost for teams to go racing and perhaps even draw more teams with a multitude of tubs and engines that can literally be bought off of Ebay!

Add in Road America, Portland, Cleveland and MIS and I am willing!!!

I guess if I am a villan for that then you must not really be much of a fan at all because I hardly doubt many people would disagree with me.

So you tell me - what's so mean spirited about that??? I have been a fan for over 20 years so I think I - and all and any PAYING fans deserve better. 13 year sof shit under one management tells me nothing more then we are in for 13 more years of shit unless management itself changes dramatically... If you don't like those facts then I suggest you hit tf.com and banter with folks who are more in line with your views.

#318 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 14:20

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII
[B] Try visting trackforum.
Any views not supportive of TG's folly are immediately deleted and the poster banned for life. [B]

I can vouch for this statement: they do not like dissent there.

I also have the unique distinction of being tossed from the old ChampCarFanatics site for having the gall to suggest that history does not support the notion that CART could trace its lineage directly back to the first National Championships, 1905 and 1916, and was, therefore, holier than the IRL.

#319 Keir

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 15:18

Interesting stuff here !!

But this silly pining for the good old days of CART ???

Where are those good old CART guys anyway ?? You know, the guys who had this great sport that Tony George is trying to destroy.

Well, let me see ..... oh that's right, they F*cked up their sport and joined up with Tony George to run IndyCar !!

BTW, aportinga, no one doubts you are a fan and like a great deal of fans, you offer great free advice to fix things and make everything better. Except that you have neither the money nor the influence to put any of these great ideas on their way to reality.

The world and motor racing is run by the big dogs and if you can't run with them, you best stay on the porch!

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#320 aportinga

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 15:28

Yup

#321 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 16:23

Originally posted by Keir


The world and motor racing is run by the big dogs and if you can't run with them, you best stay on the porch!


...or at least refrain from posting. :rolleyes:

keir, I think you should scroll through all those Bernie and Max threads and post the same thing to all those who disagree with the direction that F1 is going.
It will be much appreciated I am sure.

#322 Crazy Canuck

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 17:38

Originally posted by Buford
......




Why must you always resort to personal attacks?

BTW - it's a retorical question. I don't really want an answer.


Love always,

CC

#323 Buford

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 18:49

Originally posted by Crazy Canuck




Why must you always resort to personal attacks?

BTW - it's a retorical question. I don't really want an answer.


Love always,

CC


Well when called a "loser" for my views that have come from over 40 years involvement in the sport as a driver, crewman and journalist as well as a popcorn box expert (like everybody else) I will fight back and when told knowledge of where we once were at the peak of the sports popularity and what actually happened to take it down is called wallowing in the past, I have to assume my intellectual opponent is unarmed and chooses to wallow in the gutter. I don't mind wallowing in the gutter too. Thanks for asking.

Back to the thread topic. Indy Car 2009. I predict it will gain all 5 million fans back due to its stunning on track excitement and the Milka Duno victory at Indy. OK?

#324 Risil

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 23:18

Originally posted by Buford


Back to the thread topic. Indy Car 2009. I predict it will gain all 5 million fans back due to its stunning on track excitement and the Milka Duno victory at Indy. OK?


I was trying to write a post dismissing your pessimism, that the team owners could overthrow Tony George's inefficient, dictatorial approach that never provided the IRL with any degree of success or popularity. But Barry Green, Roger Penske, Carl Haas, even AJ, are old. The teams that are winning now, are the same that were winning ten years ago -- newer operations, like Pacwest or Hogan or Forsythe (kinda new), seem to have collapsed. Without being replaced -- hence the almost complete domination of the IRL since the big 'betrayal' of CCWS.

Granted, 5 or so dominant teams (pentarchy?) is a better proposition than the two we get in F1, but are those 5 teams at all likely to produce a Gurney-style White Paper? More likely, surely, that once the sentimental old open-wheel instincts of Roger Penske, Chip Ganassi and so on have retired, that Indy will be dropped altogether? I would like to be proved wrong here. But with no auto manufacturer presence, stagnant teams, and what appears to be an ageing category, what chance of a rebellion? Surely a wholesale move to ALMS and NASCAR is most likely. Maybe Tony George will slacken his grasp on the IRL, and let the teams, and more commercially-savvy brains, take over the running. Even if you attribute TG's mismanagement so far as a consequence of the 'war' with CART/CCWS, his behaviour in, and motives for, seeking the Split suggest that this is very unlikely ever to happen. And so long as all open-wheel infrastructure, and IMS, remain in George's control, demonstrably no direct rival is possible.

Nonetheless, with the continual, baffling changes that seem to have swept F1, Le Mans, MotoGP, and even NASCAR, it's nice to see one major race series that is so evidently in decay. Y'know, for variety's sake. :cat: Maybe not so much for its participants though.

#325 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 06:22

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII


Try visting trackforum.
Any views not supportive of TG's folly are immediately deleted and the poster banned for life.
Unfortunately, for you I guess, this is the Atlas F1 board where opposing views are de riguer.
The facts as I see them is that there are far more members on this board that could give a rat's ass about indy,some posters here are old enough to know just how badly TG screwed the pooch and are not afraid to say so, and finally a smattering of indycar fans whose general responce is to shout down anyone who wants to laugh at the TG folly out loud.
The irl as it is today, and will be in the future, is a contentious issue, deal with it, or go find an indy uber alles only board where group hugs are the order of the day.

Do you still have the same opinion two pages later? The reason people want this discussion moved to another thread is not because they don't want it discussed, the reason is that this discussion is toxic, and attracts toxic posters.

#326 just me again

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 08:40

the problem with Indycar is that in it's current state it needs Tony George's support. Wich, many off thinks, my self included, is Tony's own fault.
BUT this is in the past, now we try to find a way to make indycar profitable before Tony stops pouring money into it. otherwise open wheel racing in USA will simply STOP. Most of us only want Tony George to disappear. Not the Indy 500.

Bjørn

#327 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 12:46

Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller

Do you still have the same opinion two pages later? The reason people want this discussion moved to another thread is not because they don't want it discussed, the reason is that this discussion is toxic, and attracts toxic posters.

And because..

IT GOES NOWHERE... it's dull, none of you are ever going to change your minds and reading the same post over and over and over and over again is just plain boring.

#328 aportinga

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 15:44

Originally posted by wewantourdarbyback
And because..

IT GOES NOWHERE... it's dull, none of you are ever going to change your minds and reading the same post over and over and over and over again is just plain boring.


Maybe boring but surely not as irritating as cryin marys complaining about it. I'd add that your bitching - along with a few others is just as redundant and even MORE OFF TOPIC then those comments which have made you sore.

If you don't like it then head to TF or don't post.

Sheeesh :rolleyes:

#329 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 15:57

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII

BTW, how are those engine negotiations going?
How many manufacturers are still interested?
How's the new chassis design team coming along?
And who has been blessed to be the only supplier?


Why y'all been whinging about, I still didn't get any reply to actual events unfolding in the irl.
I guess whinging is more relevant than actually discussing what is, or isn't happening in the irl ver. 2009

#330 Keir

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 16:31

WhitewaterMk11,

I truly have no interest in the Bernie and Max constant soap opera. F1 is the "big dog" of all the big dogs and it is well run. I don't like the idea of losing the North American market, but that is a problem for the market to fix. Bernie and Max don't run a discount rate series and F1 will be all the better for it at the end of the day.

As for this thread, the singular thing that bothers me is the crape hanging and the constant bashing.
It's silly and I've said so.

If one really wants to fix IndyCar, (for the record, I don't think it needs fixing) One needs to bring money and lots of it to the table instead of feeble attacks on Tony George, Danica, Milka and whoever else is the flavor of the minute.

Forums are supposed to be for discussion and sometimes when we all play nice they actually serve that purpose.

#331 aportinga

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 17:01

Hold on....

There are some differences. Buford is a done deal - his hatred is pure and perhaps that is based in the experiences he has had. I cannot fault him for that and nor should anyone else unless we all have been there and done that. It does not mean that his posts are bad - they are redundant but that's Buford. There are times he offers a shit load of great posts with detail drawn from his many years of experiences. The colorful attacks in the middle are worth the exstensive long posts IMO :up:

This is also a message board and there is an "ignore" feature which is used precisely for posters who feel that others are ranting. Why some of the crybabies do not employ that is not my problem and so long as they leave that bin empty and continue to respond to these comments makes them fair game - just as much as those people THEY are pointing at...

Now I am not sure where you (Keir) are coming from but the way I read it is you are stating that unless I cut a check to the IRL, a team or become a sponsor, I have no right to ridicule or comment in an negative manner the series itself? IS that correct???

If so I disagree enormously. As fans of ANY series - we ultimately pay the bills one way or another - WE ARE THE CONSUMER. A good series - regardless of the sport, should be in tune with their fan base - too some extent. The addition or Road America in 2006 to the CCWS schedule was a great example of this and a means which built a foundation from series management to the fans. The lack in ability of the IRL to do the same with MIS and many other places - Surfers Paradise for example is a clear indication that they do not understand this. I am sure there are dozens of other examples from other sports which can be used in similar fashion. None the less, a series which neglects the fans altogether (CART by 1994, F1 over the last decade and the IRL all along), will lose it's ground altogether - just as all of those entities mentioned in fact have.

Taking a look at Bufords perspective - one which I agree with, the IRL is by far the worst example because the very birth of the series was built on a foundation of lies which it's original fan base now know- many of them now gone. There was never intent to build a mom & pop - predominatly oval based (American) series with an emphasis on American drivers.

From that the mistakes just add up - year after year...

And while there is no reason to rehash this, one thing which is indisputable is the fact that in 2005 the IRL was in the red - spending $250,000,000.00 of revenue from the 500, 400 and family funds in TG's name to support the series - THAT after nearly 10 years in existance!

Fast foward to 2008 and Tony George himself has stated that the series still remains in the hole.

Take the product out of the equation - look at the time frame, costs and revenue alone and there is no way this is a success story from a business perspective. There is also NO indication of change - in terms of leadership, which means the decline will more then likely continue.

And while you may like the product, no revenue and greater costs - along with a shit economy will not sustain the league - nor will the sole existance of the Indy500. THAT (from a business sense) is what has always concerned/s me.

The fact that I am on the fringe of being concidered a consumer - based on 20 years as a fan, that I want to see this succeed, gives me at least the right to post my comments on a message board.

If the series was smart they'd be listening.

#332 Ricardo F1

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 17:07

Are there any odds on Danica doing Playboy this year?

#333 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 17:42

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Are there any odds on Danica doing Playboy this year?


Isn't she more a Penthouse type?

#334 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 00:35

Originally posted by aportinga


Maybe boring but surely not as irritating as cryin marys complaining about it. I'd add that your bitching - along with a few others is just as redundant and even MORE OFF TOPIC then those comments which have made you sore.

If you don't like it then head to TF or don't post.

Sheeesh :rolleyes:

I read this and post because I'm interested in the 2009 Indycar season, I have no problem with your argument, I in fact agree with it, but posting the same reasoning over and over again from both sides is pointless.

#335 aportinga

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 00:39

CONDENSED

Captain Liverspots just pulled the plug on the Detroit GP and Vision Racing (Tony Georges Team) just laid off 12 staff members.

#336 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 00:40

For why? :confused:

#337 aportinga

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 00:40

No money

#338 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 00:41

sounds familiar :rolleyes:

#339 aportinga

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 02:07

Another inherited practice from ChampCar ;)

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#340 Buford

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 04:54

Roger Penske has the money to stage the race but why should he? A dying sport and fan base. Roger has always been the master of racing OPM (other people's money). For God's sake, you don't expect him to spend his own money do you? On the other hand that other guy is the master of spending MM (Mommy's money) and you see where that got him. King of a cesspool of his own creation, a financial rat hole and the man who will go down in history for destroying Indy Car racing in America with his "vision". Textbook case of incompetence and lack of understanding what the market wanted and was willing to pay for. It certainly has never been the IRL.

#341 B Squared

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 09:01

http://www.indystar....386/1004/SPORTS

#342 Crazy Canuck

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 13:42

Another factor about the Detroit race is that there is nobody up there with money to buy tickets! Detroit is a ghost town becuase of all the lay offs and bankrupcies from The Big 3 and their suppliers.

CC

smarter than ever

#343 aportinga

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 14:46

Yeah - Michigan in general is in deep shit! I really feel bad for the people who are getting it the worst.

This season would be a great opportunity for those people in the region who have money to help out those who do not.

#344 Keir

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 16:11

My point about "bringing money to the table" should not in any way limit one's opinion.

However, what is stopping the various bitchers from taking their ideas to the very people they critique ?

I'd love to see the sport of IndyCar get better. I've owned and run a racing team and you would have to pay me a King's ransom to take Tony George's place.

The very idea that TG and company aren't in touch with what is going on in the series or refuse to listen to any advice is just plain silly.

To try to conclude my point, if their are two people at this hypotheical table, both with valid opinions and only one has the money to back up their ideas, who gets to talk ??

It's the guy with the MONEY !!! Always has been, always will be !

#345 aportinga

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 16:49

Originally posted by Keir


The very idea that TG and company aren't in touch with what is going on in the series or refuse to listen to any advice is just plain silly.


With all due respect I find it hard to believe that you can suggest anything which indicates that TG has a clue when it comes to listening to sound advise. The very fact that the IRL is in existence stems from the inability of AJ Foyt to win in CART and his (Foyts) position at Tony George's ear during the mid-late 1980's and into the early 1990's seems to say just the opposite.

I mean how can you argue success as well when the series has been in decline since it's very first year with exception to one Indy500 where the ratings peaks 3 years ago? NASCAR developed into a succesful model. ALMS and GrandAm have had successes - far more so then the IRL. Even ChampCar was head to head in ratings and had better attended (year round) races then the IRL with exception of the 500.

The biggest teams, drivers and sponsors and the biggest race is now - and has been a thing of the past to the general public... There is just no getting around that.

How is that successful and within that context how can one argue that TG is listening - at least to the right people?

I can understand if you like the product - but you are a rare breed - getting smaller by the day - especially when the VERSUS deal kicks in (which has nothing to do with the economy) and will see the ratings decrease significantly over the next 3 years - down to what 0.2???

Who the hell gave TG THAT advise? I mean there comes a time when you need exposure and you need to pay for it - not take a dead product and put it on some obscure network to save costs - wrong time - wrong place.

Take a look at the Dallara - they signed a deal through 2011. Even ChampCar - with far less reserves - if any, knew that a new car could be used to decrease the cost of spare parts and replacement parts over the short and long term. Remember also - there was a parts shortage this season as well from Dallara.

Thank god - Dallara (an Italian make) agreed to at least lower costs by 11% which will probably mean nothing when considered against the value of the dollar and shipping costs associated with bringing tubs and parts over on an annual basis.

Needs more Gene Simmons - or better yet let's bank the entire series on a woman who gets more press for her half naked shots in SI and other formats then she does actual racing coverage. Where's the back up there - cause I have news for you, she's gone after this year. NASCAR will pick her up - give her a GREAT car and subsequently market the shit out of the female demographic in the series which has yet to be tapped... Hell all that series needs next is Willy T Ribbs and the corpse of Carlos Pace to max out!

What about the comments from TG regarding the series not making money and that if it doesn't by 2013 it will be out of business? Of course one week later TG is talking European expansion in the Winter :lol:

#346 Locai

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 17:47

While it's sad to see IndyCar lose a race for next year, Belle Isle will not be missed. It was the worst possible street circuit. Zero room to pass.

#347 aportinga

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 18:22

Kill Sanoma, Glen, MId Ohio & Milwaukee along with it :up:

Add in Road America, MIS, Gateway, Mt Tremblant and Road Atlanta and it's a start.

#348 Keir

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 18:57

aportinga,

I do like the product.

I will not respond to any Danica baiting other than to say, Do you have the winning mega millions numbers for this coming Tuesday ??

The old saying about there being no bad publicity is stiill very true, always has been, always will be.

We can always agree to disagree.

#349 aportinga

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 19:23

Originally posted by Keir


The old saying about there being no bad publicity is stiill very true, always has been, always will be.


This is what I always found interesting with Minardi in F1... They were darlings (pre-Stoddart) and always got a good deal of mentions for running at the back of the pack... So while I hear what you are saying, it still does not make it easy to sell space to sponsors when your at the back of the grid - or in Danica/Marco's case, a has been before you were a success.

Too much hype - too much bad marketing - NOT (just as with the case of Minardi) enough real substance.

#350 pingu666

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 19:55

yeah, it wasnt that great a circuit, wonder if another circuit can step in and fill the gap