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#401 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 04:38

Ive got a picture in my head of Cogan in a Marlboro car during the 80s?

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#402 Rob G

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 05:21

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Ive got a picture in my head of Cogan in a Marlboro car during the 80s?

When Marlboro joined Patrick, 7-Eleven moved from Emmo's car to Cogan's. Then Marlboro expanded their sponsorship to include Cogan's car the following season when 7-Eleven left.

#403 Jim Thurman

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 20:06

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I was slightly skeptical of your JG stories. I didn't doubt their accuracy but put them squarely in the "well, no one makes it alone" category, but since the advent of the current generation of NASCAR and super teams everywhere, not just at the 24, he suddenly looks like, well, just another competent racing driver.

I am aware of that Ross, you sure only slightly?;) The stories you really should question are the cover up stories and PR spin thrown out there on Gordon and Stewart. Truly, you either had to be there or watch it unfold.

Maybe you have a different perspective considering your own efforts, but there's help and then there is "Help". There are plenty of things, even outside the box, that Bickford could have done for his stepson that I would not have objected to and considered along the same lines, but his approach and tactics...and the willingness of a production company to go along and then appoint itself "kingmakers" is beyond the pale to me. When employees of the production company and network have a financial stake in the people they are covering, well, that's a big time conflict of interest. It's utterly unethical, if not illegal*. If it happened with football or basketball, there would be congressional hearings and jail time.

The fact that Bickford has continuously changed his story, seemingly from month to month, casts serious doubts on everything. The real "smoking gun" was his involvement with another young quarter midget racer and his mother before Jeff and his mother, something that he contradicts constantly. Add in the fact that this other driver had a "name" and Bickford's plans and motivation become abundantly clear.

The whole approach with Jeff Gordon previewed what they would do next with Stewart. Contrived achievements and accomplishments being the tip of the iceberg. I still recall the first time Stewart appeared on ESPN and the announcer gushed like a schoolgirl "He's the next Jeff Gordon!" while he slogged around at the back of the field in a dated Midget. Because of what had just happened, I knew what it really meant, and they proved me right. And that is just plain wrong.

And now Jeff looks like just another competent driver? Sacrilege!...heretic! :) Don't you know he's the greatest of all time, the best looking, sexiest, yada yada yada...all of it...he is everything :)

I'd like to point out that Jeff is just an old geezer, and Tony too, that should step aside and make way for fresh talent. I'm waiting for the same a------- to say that about JG and TS the way they did to those they perceived were either in their way or not supportive. Which is another part of the story, the attacks and undermining of anyone who didn't go along with the program.

*rules and regulations were different then

#404 Jim Thurman

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 20:15

Originally posted by Buford
I recall when ESPN was pushing Jeff Gordon his main competition was Eric Gordon. Every bit as good as Jeff and gave him all he could handle and more. Of course Jeff had talent and was deserving of what happened to him but so was Eric who went absolutely nowhere. From my own racing experiences I could relate far more to Eric than Jeff. Talent often isn't close to being enough. Promotion and who you know is far more important.

I agree Bufe, and Eric Gordon got some "help" of theirs too. But, somewhere along the line he didn't go along with something they wanted and rebelled. Which makes me admire him all the more, but you can see where that got him.

I recall an announcer saying that E. Gordon had a lot of talent "and appeared to be headed to bigger things, but he decided he didn't want any help" on air!

That's the amazing arrogance of that crew, they didn't make any effort to hide it, so much of it came out on air. There was a period there where seemingly everyone on the crew had their own driver. Many got pushed, but, of course, none to the level of J. Gordon or Stewart. I figured they'd fold the tent after they got Bobby East somewhere. Pity the guy that had Jimmy Kite :)

They used to knock Dan Drinan on air all the time...the reason?, when Tony would get mad and approach Drinan in a fit, Drinan decked him...and it happened more than once. Robin Miller has joked that they need Drinan to keep Tony in line because "so far, he's undefeated" :)

#405 Buford

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 07:01

Jimmy Kite was everything that stunk about the con job scab IRL of the 1990s. A talentless mope who hit everything in sight and was endlessly hyped by the TV commentators as the very symbol of what the IRL stood for. A fresh-faced American who represented those deserving Americans who had been kept out of Indy Car racing by greasy foreigner ride buyers. And now he was getting his chance thanks to Tony George and his vision that was going to bring the sport back to the glory, that it had ummm... well before he took over and lost it. Problem was, Kite was one of the worst Indy Car drivers of all time and the IRL ran off millions of fans who were not as stupid as Tony George thought they were.

#406 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 08:00

I think people were alienated by the division and the arguments themselves, not any particular side.

#407 Jedi_F1

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 17:52

Robert Doornbos is reported that he has signed to drive for the Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing Team in the second seat.

Source in dutch: http://www.autosport...php?item=271652

If so, the (ex) F1 driver for Red Bull Racing and last years Red Bull's testdriver will make his Indycar debut this year.
He preformed good for the A1GP Team Netherlands (1 podium and 1 fastest lap) and also last year, he had 2 wins, 5 podiums and 1 pole in the new Superleague Formula series, with team AC Milan.

More info:http://www.forix.com...c=0&x=0&s=0&b=0

#408 Jim Thurman

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 20:04

And, of course, the fact that Jimmy Kite was from the same hometown as - and relocated to the new home area of - one of the on air announcers, the one hyping him the most, is a complete co-incidence ;)

Bufe, can you, or anyone else, see and make that connection from the announcers to the creation of the IRL itself yet?

That's kind of what I'm trying to point out here...there is a correlation.

#409 Buford

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 08:16

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I think people were alienated by the division and the arguments themselves, not any particular side.


Eventually over a number of years no doubt. But initially when the Indy 500 lost half its TV ratings in 1996 and never regained it, and successful events at Phoenix and New Hampshire who went with the IRL were immediate ghost towns and soon canceled, and the citizens of Cleveland rebelled and in massive letter writing campaigns when it was announced their race was going IRL, and it was rescinded, it is clear who lost most of the fans to the sport. After another 6 years or so, with two watered down crap series, I agree, both sides were stinking up the joint. And they handed the sport to Nascar. I don't feel sorry for any of them.

Bufe, can you, or anyone else, see and make that connection from the announcers to the creation of the IRL itself yet?



No I think it was all about a joke told at the Houston meetings by Pat Patrick that ended up in "a druggie and a drunken slut" that put the burnout over the top and after that there was no reasoning with him. He was determined to "show them" they were not dealing with a lightweight and he was willing to spend any amount of mommy's money and actually bring the sport to its knees to defend what he thought was the family honor. Lol if there ever was a family anywhere who had no honor since the death of the grandfather, it has to be the Hulman-George family.

Robin Miller is predicting 21 or 22 cars. I will be surprised if they get that many.

#410 anbeck

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 08:52

With such a crap series and the worst possible way of re-uniting Indy, I'd really be surprised if Audi or Porsche were seriously considering going there...
By the time the new engine regs kick in, Indy might already be history.

#411 aportinga

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 14:06

I worte a message to Robin Miller for his monthly Q&A betting him a 45 or MacCallan that Audi never shows. Porcshe was bullshit speculation and Alfa is no differnent.

Open wheel racing is no better then it was when we had 2 series - at least now that it is controlled by TG. He still making the classic bone head moves that he's been making for years - such as excluding engine manufactures from joining those so - called manufacture meetings.

Sure it would be great to have manufacture money like Honda. But realistically who is going to sign up - not Audi - please :rolleyes: The IRL should be looking at lowering costs. With it being in such shit shape - even before the world economy took a dump, it should have ONLY been talking with engine builders such as Cosworth and Judd. At least THAT could have lowered the cost to teams and hopefully drove home retention and even added a few "full-season" cars to the grid. Everything else such as manufactures whould dollow suit as fields grew and racing became more interesting.

Naw - TG wants to sign on manufactures for the same reason he's locked out any other chassis builder from the IRL (short of Dallara) becuase he gets a kick back.

Yeah - good on him. That helps the series out.

#412 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 14:10

Any OEM does more for the series than Judd or Cosworth.

#413 aportinga

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 14:35

I agree but my argument is that - other then Honda, there will be no other OEM. So why not offer a less expensive alternative to Honda which is reputed to be $1 mill per season... perhaps down to $750,000 per season this or next year.

A program at $350,000 could help retain teams or teams who had 2 cars which are now reduced to 1 car.

#414 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 14:55

I think the Hondas are only that price because they're writing down some of the cost as an advertising spend, otherwise they could be even more expensive if done by someone who wasn't getting any badge benefit from them.

#415 aportinga

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 15:01

I am sure you are right.

My entire point - since the IRL was created is that there never seems to be a back out/up plan. The series tends to move based on reaction to negative situations.

Management is trying to bite off more then it's worth at this point. This is NOT helping to decrease costs short term.

#416 B Squared

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 17:44

http://auto-racing.s...ek-says-miller/

This seems to indicate a increase in car count vs. the figures cited earlier by Buford from Miller's earlier writings.

"By the time the new engine regs kick in, Indy might already be history" anbeck

With the 100 year anniversary celebrations just beginning with the 2009 calendar year by the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, I'd take odds that there will be an Indy 500 in 2011. With open wheel Indy Cars.

Brian

#417 anbeck

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 19:05

Originally posted by B Squared
"By the time the new engine regs kick in, Indy might already be history" anbeck

With the 100 year anniversary celebrations just beginning with the 2009 calendar year by the Indianapolis Moter Speedway, I'd take odds that there will be an Indy 500 in 2011. With open wheel Indy Cars.

Brian


You are certainly right and I wasn't 100% serious. But I'd be surprised if the state of IndyCar racing imroved from here until 2011.
Certainly nothing that will attract new manufacturers (at least not Audi or Porsche).

#418 B Squared

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 19:48

http://www.indystar....039/1004/SPORTS

Another driver named, another car to count.

Brian

#419 Jedi_F1

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 21:53

Mario Moraes :)

Not a big surprise,
because he already race in 16 Indycar races last year,
with a 7th place as a best finish and was 2 times a race leader.

He's not bad, he was 3 years vice champion in the South American Formula 3 championship,
but then again .. that was 3 years ago...

The grid is shaping up, I expect an official press release on wednesday about Doornbos .. unless the deal hasn't been done.

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#420 ColdHeart

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 06:37

Penske will announce a replacement for Helio who has serious legal issues with the IRS and will be looking for a job. Expect RHR to drive for Roger.

#421 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 06:50

Wtf has Helio done that's sending him to jail? Doesn't just paying the back taxes and a big fine get you off? Or is he doing a Wesley Snipes and refusing to pay?

#422 Lukin

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 07:22

I heard Will Power, not RHR.

#423 anbeck

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 09:07

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Wtf has Helio done that's sending him to jail? Doesn't just paying the back taxes and a big fine get you off?


If it were that easy, everyone would give it a try.

#424 krapmeister

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 09:14

Originally posted by Lukin
I heard Will Power, not RHR.


On Autosport now: Power confirmed at Penske

Good to see - he deserves a drive. :up:

#425 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 09:46

Originally posted by anbeck


If it were that easy, everyone would give it a try.


Tax avoidance is a lot easier than most people think, and legal.

#426 TwoCents

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 10:19

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Wtf has Helio done that's sending him to jail? Doesn't just paying the back taxes and a big fine get you off?


:up: Yeah ffs. It's not like he murdered someone.

#427 B Squared

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 10:27

The local Indy report of the Penske hiring: http://www.indystar....S0107/901130352

Brian

#428 anbeck

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 11:05

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


Tax avoidance is a lot easier than most people think, and legal.


I don't know the details of the CN case, but there's a difference between legal tax avoidance and illegal tax evasion.

#429 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 11:06

Indeed, he seems to have slipped into the no-go area. And apparently lied about it under oath (which is a big big mistake).

#430 McGuire

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 12:03

Originally posted by aportinga


Sure it would be great to have manufacture money like Honda. But realistically who is going to sign up - not Audi - please :rolleyes: The IRL should be looking at lowering costs. With it being in such shit shape - even before the world economy took a dump, it should have ONLY been talking with engine builders such as Cosworth and Judd. At least THAT could have lowered the cost to teams and hopefully drove home retention and even added a few "full-season" cars to the grid. Everything else such as manufactures whould dollow suit as fields grew and racing became more interesting.


That would raise the price of the engine supply, not lower it.

#431 aportinga

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 13:26

Not for the teams - maybe for TG.... Unless you're telling me that CC teams were paying $1 mill for their Cosworth engines. But we both know they were not.

#432 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 14:06

Cosworth were kinda sorta owned by the series.

#433 aportinga

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 15:07

Understood but even with changes to or a rebuild, you're still telling me it would come out to $1 mill?

Also remember - all the BS about Audi is coming from Robin Miller who has been saying for months that this is a done deal - also saying that Alfa was coming as well. 2 weeks ago he stated that Alfa was just thrown on the table by him and that Audi - just last week has signed or agreed to nothing.

Moreless we are 2 years from the 100 anniversary of Indy - a new car and supposed engine. With how the IRL operates I would expect plenty more business related mistakes until then - not too mention this economy.

No way Audi comes - period! That leaves Honda. So the question is - will Honda stay on board. If you assume no then you have a problem. If you assume yes then you still need to develop a back up plan - something as mentioned earlier, management is not capable of doing... Their answer is to lure a brand who does not compete against Honda (Audi) and has very little to do with the entire IRL demographic. Also lets not forget to mention the product scores less then Sponge Bob in ratings and is now off (starting this year) to an obscure network on cable which will see ratings tumble even further for then next 3 years.

The series should face the music - it's going to have to buy engines - no different then what CC had done. They have Kalkoven who owns Cosworth and Pi, Haas who can bring in Lola. THAT should be the contingency plan moving forward.

#434 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 15:20

What makes you so sure Audi wouldn't come? It fits their MO.

#435 rghojai

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 17:08

Memory of specific Helio details are a bit hazy at the moment, but me thinks Ross is right, that the accusation of lying is the big one... and one we've seen in countless things that end up in court.

When the Helio stuff came out, zounds, what an entangled collection of business dealings somewhere in Central America (Panama?), something in Europe, different companies set up, etc., etc., etc.

Seems like when the questions first came up--a previous go-round with the tax guys in which he's now accused of lying--he could have done something of a mea culpa, said something like, "Hey, I'm a race-car driver and I perhaps didn't pay attention to and understand this as much as would have been best," and paid a fine/back taxes.

If they can prove the lie(s), feels like it would be far from surprising if he's incarcerated.

#436 Crazy Canuck

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 17:30

Originally posted by rghojai
Memory of specific Helio details are a bit hazy at the moment, but me thinks Ross is right, that the accusation of lying is the big one... and one we've seen in countless things that end up in court.

When the Helio stuff came out, zounds, what an entangled collection of business dealings somewhere in Central America (Panama?), something in Europe, different companies set up, etc., etc., etc.

Seems like when the questions first came up--a previous go-round with the tax guys in which he's now accused of lying--he could have done something of a mea culpa, said something like, "Hey, I'm a race-car driver and I perhaps didn't pay attention to and understand this as much would have been best," and paid a fine/back taxes.

If they can prove the lie(s), feels like it would be far from surprising if he's incarcerated.


It sends a message too....I'm sure he's not the only drive with sketchy transactions behind all the cash.

CC

#437 Keir

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 19:11

I'm shocked !! :rolleyes:

#438 B Squared

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 10:35

http://www.indystar....357/1004/SPORTS

The smart "move" of the off season may be listed at the bottom of the article with Foyt IV getting married to the daughter of the owner of the Indianapolis NFL franchise.

Brian

#439 red stick

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 13:51

:lol:

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#440 Jedi_F1

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 22:56

Well Tony George has told the Indianapolis Journal,
he's thinking of a European & Asian Indycar Series from 2011??

Source in french:
http://www.speedacti...11_-1840-1.aspx

Don't know about that, wel already have so/to many singleseater series...
even if the financial crisis could be just a bad memory in 2011 ... still sometimes I hear : we need less singleseater series instead of more.
He should try to build a firm popular series over there, or do some Indycar races in Europe before expanding or selling the concepts elsewhere no?

#441 B Squared

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 11:51

"He should try to build a firm popular series over there, or do some Indycar races in Europe before expanding or selling the concepts elsewhere no?" Jedi_F1

The entire series has plenty to do to rebuild in this country & continent. I'd think that should be of highest priority. : I don't allow myself to be too surprised by this group anymore.

Brian

#442 aportinga

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 14:51

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
What makes you so sure Audi wouldn't come? It fits their MO.


It would fit their MO if the engine regs were more liberal. As it stands now the formula will remain NA V-8 with perhaps minor modifications. That's what Honda has stipulated otherwise they are gone. (1) Audi is not going to want to showcase V-8 power and (2) I would feel significantly less comfortable with Audi as a sole supplier of power then Honda - which is what will happen if we go to turbos.

Even if Honda steps away from their earlier statment, they will have to retool everything which will take the costs even higher - teams cannot afford the package now!

#443 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 21:10

Originally posted by B Squared
"
The entire series has plenty to do to rebuild in this country & continent. I'd think that should be of highest priority.


It is their highest priority.
They canceled the most popular overseas race, Surfers Paradise.
Not sure about the teams however, all the new hires are from other countries.
;)

#444 aportinga

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 22:09

Yeah - the IRL does not have the management or leadership to accomplish what they are projecting - not even an once of it.

If they did then I would suggest opening up the chassis regs for Reynard, Panoz and Lola and allowing for a multitude of engine configurations - which will in effect force the series to beef up it's technical staff but so be it if it helps stir interest.

Next on the block would be a schedule... I would reduce the races in the US and increase those in Europe - specifically legacy regions left behind by F1 and so on.

Long Beach
Road America
Indy
MIS
Texas
Gateway
Cleveland
Portland
Kansas

Canada...
Edmonton
Toronto

Europe...
Nurburg
Austria
Holland
Oval in Britain

Others...
Suzuka
Surfers Paradise
Mexico

Merge up with Superleague and get Williams and maybe a few other teams who will be leaving F1 in the next 3 years. Score a title sponsor and eventually more F1 sponsors which are regionally specific to the Europe exclusively will follow suit - no different then what happened to a good deal of CART sponsors who ran to the IRL because they either did not have the budget to go international, product or the customer base.

Next up - PAY to be on SPEED and secure an equal broadcast partner in Europe (which I understand has been a huge problem for Superleague so that helps them out as well).

Sadly - and as mentioned, Tony George couldn't even find Europe on a globe much less handle the above.

#445 qwazy

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 01:04

Originally posted by aportinga
Yeah - the IRL does not have the management or leadership to accomplish what they are projecting - not even an once of it.

If they did then I would suggest opening up the chassis regs for Reynard, Panoz and Lola and allowing for a multitude of engine configurations - which will in effect force the series to beef up it's technical staff but so be it if it helps stir interest.

Next on the block would be a schedule... I would reduce the races in the US and increase those in Europe - specifically legacy regions left behind by F1 and so on.

Long Beach
Road America
Indy
MIS
Texas
Gateway
Cleveland
Portland
Kansas

Canada...
Edmonton
Toronto

Europe...
Nurburg
Austria
Holland
Oval in Britain

Others...
Suzuka
Surfers Paradise
Mexico

Merge up with Superleague and get Williams and maybe a few other teams who will be leaving F1 in the next 3 years. Score a title sponsor and eventually more F1 sponsors which are regionally specific to the Europe exclusively will follow suit - no different then what happened to a good deal of CART sponsors who ran to the IRL because they either did not have the budget to go international, product or the customer base.

Next up - PAY to be on SPEED and secure an equal broadcast partner in Europe (which I understand has been a huge problem for Superleague so that helps them out as well).

Sadly - and as mentioned, Tony George couldn't even find Europe on a globe much less handle the above.


Lol, no offense (I've never had much of a bone to pick with you in the past) but that's just ridiculous. Your proposal or idea seems to think money is no object.

#446 B Squared

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 10:22

A few observations from this morning's Indy Star:http://www.indystar....9/1052/SPORTS01

http://www.indystar....9/1052/SPORTS01

Curt Cavin & Kevin Lee are doing their IndyCar radio show next Saturday morning at the Indiana State Museum from 11AM - 1PM. It's called "The Gathering Before the Green". It's said that last year's event was quite good & fun. If we come out of the deep freeze around here (-14 F this morning) I think I'll make the 100 mile trip to be there. It would be good to meet any fellow TNF members in the area who make it also.

Brian

#447 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 10:27

Originally posted by aportinga


It would fit their MO if the engine regs were more liberal. As it stands now the formula will remain NA V-8 with perhaps minor modifications. That's what Honda has stipulated otherwise they are gone. (1) Audi is not going to want to showcase V-8 power and (2) I would feel significantly less comfortable with Audi as a sole supplier of power then Honda - which is what will happen if we go to turbos.

Even if Honda steps away from their earlier statment, they will have to retool everything which will take the costs even higher - teams cannot afford the package now!


You know they're thinking about changing the engine rules?

#448 aportinga

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 13:16

Originally posted by qwazy


Lol, no offense (I've never had much of a bone to pick with you in the past) but that's just ridiculous. Your proposal or idea seems to think money is no object.


I think I offended myself too.

#449 aportinga

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 13:20

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


You know they're thinking about changing the engine rules?


Ross - have you read my posts or what? I know this and in fact have mentioned over and over that Honda has formaly stated that the only changes they will accept are modifications to the current NA V-8. So either that precludes changes in order to retain Honda, or changes happen none the less and Honda steps out.

Of course they could change their mind but if they do the engine costs will even escalate further based on a re-tool of the entire platform itself.

As far as I am concerned it's a losing scenario in this market and and for the IRL since it is still running out of cash resources and teams.

#450 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
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Posted 16 January 2009 - 13:44

Originally posted by aportinga


Ross - have you read my posts or what? I know this and in fact have mentioned over and over that Honda has formaly stated that the only changes they will accept are modifications to the current NA V-8. So either that precludes changes in order to retain Honda, or changes happen none the less and Honda steps out.

Of course they could change their mind but if they do the engine costs will even escalate further based on a re-tool of the entire platform itself.

As far as I am concerned it's a losing scenario in this market and and for the IRL since it is still running out of cash resources and teams.


Can they not run the Cossie Turbos, those were suitable for oval racing were they not? Packing a little more hp to entertain the fans.