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Team bosses suggest dramatic new qualifying format


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#1 vakie

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 03:12


On December 4th FOTA will gather to discuss a new qualifying format. If they all agree on it, it will be suggested to FIA on December 12th.

The team managers have come up with a way to turn qualifying into an even more dramatic shoot-out.

In the first session of qualifying all cars would be on the circuit at the same time driving with equal fuel. After each lap the slowest driver will be eliminated and will start the race from that grid position.

This would go on for 14 laps, untill the 6 fastest drivers are left and they go on to the final session.

They will start again with equal fuel, but are free to change tyres as they see fit.

It is also suggested that pole position will give 1 championship point and a cash prize to be determined.


http://www.turunsano...59,1:0:0:0:0:0:

Sounds good to me, especially the equal fuel part.

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#2 ViMaMo

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 03:20

Its pathetic.

Monaco, 20 cars on track for qualifying?

#3 mark f1

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 03:23

Imagine the blocking that would go on. You wouldn't be able to drop back to get a clear space, because that lap would be slow and you might be out. How do they deal with the cars being spread over a lap....what happens if two cars go off, both get lapped, but one is quicker than the other, but is now a lap behind the others who would be on their 3rd lap whilst he is yet to complete his 2nd lap.....Does that mean that all drivers are halfway through their next hot lap, when one is told they were the slowest and have to drop out, or is there one slow lap between each fast lap to allow the slowest to drop to the back, and the rest to try and get a clear space...probably the way they would do it. 14 laps with one slow lap is 28 laps....that's a lot of laps...and on long tracks could be about 40-45 mins. Would then leave a 5-10 min dash for top 6?

Lots of detail questions with this format to sort out.

#4 Ocelot

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 03:25

It is also suggested that pole position will give 1 championship point


Does that count towards a medal?! To be frank, if I was FOTA, I'd concentrate more on what to do when the FIA releases a statement over the next few months demanding that all teams run with a Cosworth engine from 2010. Fiddling whilst Rome burns.

#5 alfa1

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 03:32

Originally posted by vakie
...more dramatic ...with equal fuel ...with equal fuel ...cash prize


I hate it already.
I have a better suggestion - teams and drivers simply try to go as fast as they can.

#6 Slowinfastout

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 03:38

Every couple of months completely change the nature of the competition... wtf is wrong with those people?

Equal fuel now? More reponsibilities for the referee? Just what F1 needs right... ):

If you have a crap car you do 1 or 2 laps each weekend (on cold tires?) and you're booted from qualy? 3 or 4 laps for the next crappiest team, and so on?

:eek: :mad:

It's a competition on who's more insane between the team bosses and Bernie/Max..

#7 stevewf1

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 03:44

Originally posted by mark f1
Imagine the blocking that would go on. You wouldn't be able to drop back to get a clear space, because that lap would be slow and you might be out. How do they deal with the cars being spread over a lap....what happens if two cars go off, both get lapped, but one is quicker than the other, but is now a lap behind the others who would be on their 3rd lap whilst he is yet to complete his 2nd lap.....Does that mean that all drivers are halfway through their next hot lap, when one is told they were the slowest and have to drop out, or is there one slow lap between each fast lap to allow the slowest to drop to the back, and the rest to try and get a clear space...probably the way they would do it. 14 laps with one slow lap is 28 laps....that's a lot of laps...and on long tracks could be about 40-45 mins. Would then leave a 5-10 min dash for top 6?

Lots of detail questions with this format to sort out.


Let's see... An "exciting" one-hour qualifying session followed by an equally "exciting" one-hour steward's judgments show... :

#8 pingu666

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 04:17

i quite like the current format, and the suggested format sounds like a nightmare. IRL have something similer but split the field in half and then do a session for each half and then a final round for the top 6 or something.

and prize money for pole should goto a charity of the drivers choosing, but with something in the rules so back of the grid teams could fight for that pole too, by gambling maybe on something... maybe have qualy tyres, but you gotta start the race on them. double or more the prize money for a home pole too.

imagine this year for example, alonso going all out on supersoft tyres for the spanish GP, motivated by kids from the local childrens hospital or something like that...

oh, and a lil trophy aswell


and a point for pole is a way more interesting dynamic if you have race fuel... teams on the cusp (STR RBR renault toyota) might chose to grab pole and the point. what may well happen is the top 2-3 teams will do 3 stop instead of 2 to cover the lower teams :/. another danger would be the teams trying todo as much special qualy stuff to grab pole then swap back to race stuff...



i want qauly tobe about cars going absolutely flat out...

#9 Slowinfastout

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 04:25

...but if you have cars going absolutely flatout in qual with a point to be gained at the end of it, you might have some teams totally compromising their race, because there's no chance for points on sunday for them.

I'm against the idea of awarding points in qualy, even a single point is too much compared to what happens the next day... qualy points are good for spec series, or a series that is giving alot more points on sunday.

#10 Smudger

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 04:33

Originally posted by Slowinfastout
...but if you have cars going absolutely flatout in qual with a point to be gained at the end of it, you might have some teams totally compromising their race, because there's no chance for points on sunday for them.

I'm against the idea of awarding points in qualy, even a single point is too much compared to what happens the next day... qualy points are good for spec series, or a series that is giving alot more points on sunday.


I'd like to see two sessions, one of Friday, one on Saturday, so as to reduce the chance of weather affecting the outcome. The track would be open for 90 minutes on each day, and the teams could send out their drivers for as many laps as they wanted, with whatever fuel load and tyres they saw fit. The best time achieved over the two sessions would take pole, and so on. Refuelling and some limited mechanical work (say an engine change) would be allowed before the race.

I can't remember where I saw that...

#11 Slowinfastout

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 04:35

Originally posted by Smudger


I'd like to see two sessions, one of Friday, one on Saturday, so as to reduce the chance of weather affecting the outcome. The track would be open for 90 minutes on each day, and the teams could send out their drivers for as many laps as they wanted, with whatever fuel load and tyres they saw fit. The best time achieved over the two sessions would take pole, and so on. Refuelling and some limited mechanical work (say an engine change) would be allowed before the race.

I can't remember where I saw that...



:clap: :up:

#12 ashnathan

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 04:47

They should do the fuel thing with the current system but just have it in two segments of 30 minutes and the drivers can only be in the pits for a max of 5 minutes before they go on track again or something so cars are mostly on track instead of just waiting for the 5 or so minutes. I dont know, just fuel should be equal in qualifying if not equal race fuel then just empty tanks for everyone.

IndyCar have the two group things, or is it 3? i liked it but it got too complicated, if it was just two groups with half an hour each it would make it better.

One car from each team is in each session, downside to this would be in some cases it could be a lottery if it rains between sessions or conditions change. Or simply theres just more rubber laid down for session 2.

Either way, i want all cars to be equal so the fastest driver is actually on pole.

#13 Racer Joe

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 04:54

The current format is fine, once they do away with the whole race fuel thing, if qualifying is the objective of the weekend.

I don't want to hear drivers whinge about being held up by someone else or losing time in someone else's slipstream. Therefore I don't like the proposed format because it will be a whingefest.

#14 skinnylizard

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 05:04

wow, sounds like a giant flaming ball of shitty ideas.. why not just go back to the old 12 lap format? everyone does as many laps as possible, that gives people plenty of air time and keeps things interesting.

i dont mind the current format so much either..

#15 Rob G

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 05:05

Originally posted by Smudger
I'd like to see two sessions, one of Friday, one on Saturday, so as to reduce the chance of weather affecting the outcome. The track would be open for 90 minutes on each day, and the teams could send out their drivers for as many laps as they wanted, with whatever fuel load and tyres they saw fit. The best time achieved over the two sessions would take pole, and so on. Refuelling and some limited mechanical work (say an engine change) would be allowed before the race.

I can't remember where I saw that...

Oh come on, that's way too logical and straightforward. Next you'll probably say that teams would be allowed to have a spare car ready just in case something happened. That'd never work either.

#16 VoidNT

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 05:19

It seems that FOTA are really going to make their intentions of competing against Max come true. They are even trying to excel him in the field of crazy idiotic ideas now!

#17 Rob

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 08:51

I suggested this a while ago...

...as a joke! Starting to wish I hadn't said anything :

#18 naiboz

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 08:55

it's just a lottery

might aswell pull names from a hat

they should keep qualy as it is now, it keeps me entertained for an hour

#19 Tony Mandara

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 09:04

I don't really know what to say to this. The only thing that springs to mind is:


Oh, Christ on a Crutch* Here we go AGAIN!!!!! :drunk:


If it ain't broke.................................Try to break it!! :confused:

Tony.

*No offence intended to anyone of any religious persuasion.

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#20 Motormedia

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 09:12

I don't care even if it happens to be a better system – for the love of God, stop messing with the rules and settle for something. Continuity is worth something in itself. I don't get this anxiety, this constant urge to change stuff as it would make the product any better. It just turns people off, they stop caring.

#21 Tony Mandara

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 09:18

Originally posted by Motormedia
Continuity is worth something in itself.



:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:


Tony. :wave:

#22 airwise

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 09:24

The only thing wrong with the current setup from what I can see is that the difficulty of overtaking makes alternative strategies pretty worthless come Sunday and negates the race fuel relevance. Maybe next year overtaking will be possible and strategies will diversify. Whatever - there's little wrong with the current format. Just give some points for the order in Q2.

#23 noikeee

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 09:27

Originally posted by Racer Joe
The current format is fine, once they do away with the whole race fuel thing, if qualifying is the objective of the weekend.

I don't want to hear drivers whinge about being held up by someone else or losing time in someone else's slipstream. Therefore I don't like the proposed format because it will be a whingefest.


+1 f-ing billion.

Why do they keep on having shit ideas that we all know are going to fail, put it into the rules, then 6 months later suddenly realise "oh shit oh shit it failed oh wait we have a better idea"?

I really don't understand how did Briatore become such a rich bastard if he's this f-ing stupid.

And it's time to stop revolutionising the f-ing rules every f-ing year in F1.

#24 engel

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 09:27

Bleh ...
there's a simpler way to have cars run with equal fuel ... remove the Q3 fuel limit
Besides, putting 20 cars on track at the same to qualify time is kinda dumb ... some DC type is bound to cause havoc sooner or later :)

#25 jokuvaan

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 09:30

After each lap the slowest driver



Who could be ANYBODY, it would be cheaper to have an lottery than see who gets into free air and who doesnt...

I'm so speechless of this idea that I cannot say more.

#26 kar

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 09:36

I dunno, I like it.

The organised chaos of the beginning could be interesting and I think that in the first few laps it's going to be the same for everyone but if you think about it, the odds are even at Monaco, unless you're directly stuck 1m behind the absolutely slowest car out there you're not going to get eliminated.

#27 Vitesse2

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 09:36

Next item on FOTA agenda:

Rearrange deck chairs on Titanic.



There are so many things wrong with this idea I can't even begin to enumerate them. :mad:

#28 F1Fanatic.co.uk

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:05

Once again it seems FOTA is wasting its energy trying to fix something that isn't broken. Qualifying has had more than enough changes in the last five years. The only further change that is needed is to get rid of the race fuel element in Q3. Otherwise, leave it alone.

#29 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:10

Another stupid way of messing with qualifying and this idea sounds worse than the current system in my opinion.

If they don't want the lightest car on pole, which I agree with, why not just do it as simple as possible. Keep current format but let Q3 be the same as Q1 and Q2 - i:e qualifying with as little fuel as possible and then fuel up the cars for the race after Q3.

Then qualifying would be qualifying again - determination of the fastest lap clear and simple.

#30 pRy

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:13

I like my idea better. Low fuel. 60 minutes. Each driver has to do three seperate runs during the 60 minutes.

#31 Dragonfly

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:24

After the long and painful experiments they finally struck a good format. Which will be be even better if Q3 is also a low fuel duel. Then everyone can put whatever amount of fuel he likes for the start of the race. That's the natural way IMO.
I fail to understand those people. Why on earth they fell obliged to change something that's working and why they always come with bizzare and crazy ideas?

#32 Clatter

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:26

I can't understand why they feel the need to constantly tinker with qualifying. I think the current system works well, gives us plenty of track action and excitement. If any changes are required then just get rid of the race fuel element and it's perfect.

#33 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:28

Just give each driver 1 flying lap with what ever fuel load he wants, and which ever tire he wants.

Fast guy start in front.

Slow guy at the rear.

No points for Pole.

:cool:

#34 Rob

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:29

60 minutes free-for-all. No race fuel. Simple.

#35 LoudHoward

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:30

Bring on the midget toss!

But seriously, the current format is okay, but they just need to do it on low fuel (get them to all nominate fuel beforehand if you want doesn't bother me).

#36 Clatter

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:33

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
Just give each driver 1 flying lap with what ever fuel load he wants, and which ever tire he wants.

Fast guy start in front.

Slow guy at the rear.

No points for Pole.

:cool:


Worse possible format you can have. As a spectator the one lap qualifying was totally boring. At the moment we get 80-90 flying laps during the session, why would you want to reduce that to just 20?

#37 y2cragie

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:37

The one problem is, by the end, if the cars remain as close as they are now, by the end the lightest will still be on pole. As some cars tend to drink the fuel much quicker than others. 14 laps is enough to make even a tenth or two of a differance.

#38 Julli

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:51

Originally posted by Smudger


I'd like to see two sessions, one of Friday, one on Saturday, so as to reduce the chance of weather affecting the outcome. The track would be open for 90 minutes on each day, and the teams could send out their drivers for as many laps as they wanted, with whatever fuel load and tyres they saw fit. The best time achieved over the two sessions would take pole, and so on. Refuelling and some limited mechanical work (say an engine change) would be allowed before the race.

I can't remember where I saw that...


That was unbelieveble boring before, why it would be any better now?

#39 wingwalker

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:55

As as I said in the other thread, this system would result in everyone complaining about everyone else even more than now. Last thing F1 needs.

Just make the teams declare race fuel load after Q2 and let them run on fumes in Q3. Other than that, current format is perfectly fine.

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#40 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 11:14

Uhg.

Just eliminate parc ferme, the present system is finally a good one...

/Figures

#41 kNt

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 11:14

Don't know how the format in itself will turn out, but they certainly lack a little apreceation for tradition.

But this format will change the goal they optimise a car for. It will not be optimised for Qualy and a fast lap in free air, it will be optimised for traffic and if I understand it correctly also on preserving tyres.

#42 Julli

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 11:29

Originally posted by vakie


http://www.turunsano...59,1:0:0:0:0:0:

Sounds good to me, especially the equal fuel part.


In principal this sounds really exciting qualifying where we could even see overtaking manouvres. However two main thing there is what would neet to be sorted.
1. In what order they would start the first lap. Should it be that the fastest which would be leading the pack (i.e. based on friday practise) or reversed or random? I'm leaning over the assumably fastest guy would go first. If it would be reversed based on the current WDC standings, we would have a action packed qualifying and interesting race.

2. If cars comes over the finish line right on each others tails and it later proves out that the first car was the slowest and it still hold the car behind for until he is informed that he is eliminated, the driver behind is compromised. Maybe this would not be as possible if the fastest guy would start first. And if you mess up the friday practise you can't blame anybody else but yourself)

For sure the best would be the best in this format also over the season and what really tics me in this, is that it would generate a grid which could produce interesting RACE even without rain. The thing what I like the most is the equal fuel loads.

And I would not give a point for qualifying. It's enough reward to have the pole position for the race where the points will be given.

And last for those who are complaining about blocking I suggest some objective examination of the qualifying formats what we've had. In only one there were no blocking and we know that it was not good for you guys. Even in the current format there are always some blocking going on. On the 12 lap format the same, in fri & sat qual there were blocking.

#43 rocketeer

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 11:39

These bigwigs couldnt be more clueless if they tried. This system will be an absolute circus and just imagine the bitching from drivers getting held up. More and more they try to strangle the sport with stupid regulations. Just when you think they cant get dumbed they do. What is the point of prize money for pole? Do they think the drivers are lacking motivation and a bit of extra cash for multi millionares will be more incentive? It just shows how out of touch and clueless they are all. I expect it go through, so they can all pat them selves on the back for giving us all another 'improvement'. It wont last the season though.

#44 jesee

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 11:42

I think this is going to be a mess. The fact of having all cars on track and the resultant complaints of blocking has already been discussed.

The other point is on a green track, the pace keeps on improving all the time while rubbering is taking place. So the driver who leaves the pit last will have an advantage over that left at the beggining. How are they going to determine who goes out first and last? Nightmare. This idea is crap :down:

#45 Motormedia

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 11:48

I dont know... It's like the cricket associations decided to change the rules into something that is more like baseball. Why trying to make a sport into what it is not? It is just telling the whole world that something is wrong with the sport as it stands, it is telling the world that this is a sport that lacks self confidence in the same way like some people make plastic surgery. This isn't about making the rules any better, it is about "we need something new". They change the rules now, and we are gonna see another rule change in two seasons. It's gotta stop. They are ruining the identity of the sport. It's like living with a spouse that has a multiple personality problem...

#46 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 11:50

Originally posted by Clatter


Worse possible format you can have. As a spectator the one lap qualifying was totally boring. At the moment we get 80-90 flying laps during the session, why would you want to reduce that to just 20?


I do not agree that it is the worst, possible that it is to those who do not appreciate good driving on the edge in the most supreme cars in the world, however there is nothing wrong in seeing the best 24 drivers in the world try to beat the clock.

Qualifying and racing should not be about spectacle, qualifying should be about finding the fastest through the slowest drivers, and set the starting order for the race according to that.

This was what worked when I raced go-karts, and I think that it worked very well when F1 were doing it.

It makes qualifying a no excuse exercise, go as fast as possible.

:cool:

#47 Clatter

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 12:10

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


I do not agree that it is the worst, possible that it is to those who do not appreciate good driving on the edge in the most supreme cars in the world, however there is nothing wrong in seeing the best 24 drivers in the world try to beat the clock.

Qualifying and racing should not be about spectacle, qualifying should be about finding the fastest through the slowest drivers, and set the starting order for the race according to that.

This was what worked when I raced go-karts, and I think that it worked very well when F1 were doing it.

It makes qualifying a no excuse exercise, go as fast as possible.

:cool:


Having sat in the stands watching the various formats that have come and gone in the last few years it is IMHO the most boring format possible. The whole event (within reason) needs to a spectacle, if not people will not watch, if no one watches then F1 will not survive.

#48 Smudger

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 12:14

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


I do not agree that it is the worst, possible that it is to those who do not appreciate good driving on the edge in the most supreme cars in the world, however there is nothing wrong in seeing the best 24 drivers in the world try to beat the clock.

Qualifying and racing should not be about spectacle, qualifying should be about finding the fastest through the slowest drivers, and set the starting order for the race according to that.

This was what worked when I raced go-karts, and I think that it worked very well when F1 were doing it.

It makes qualifying a no excuse exercise, go as fast as possible.

:cool:


It was so successful it was dropped due to spectator apathy...

#49 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 12:28

Originally posted by Clatter


Having sat in the stands watching the various formats that have come and gone in the last few years it is IMHO the most boring format possible. The whole event (within reason) needs to a spectacle, if not people will not watch, if no one watches then F1 will not survive.


I have sat through that and other variations, I actually liked the 1980ies 1 (or was it 2?) sessions of Qualifying, set as many or as few laps as you want, blocking was a matter of fact not something frowned upon, use what ever fuel, tires and even engines as you wanted. End result not that much different from what any of the other variations since then have produced.

Simple fact is that the fast drivers qualify at the front, and the slow at the rear.

And I still liked the 1 car on track at a time.

:cool:

#50 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 12:29

Originally posted by Smudger


It was so successful it was dropped due to spectator apathy...


But that is hardly an argument.

:cool: