114 replies to this topic

[taran]

Formula One likes to present a squeaky clean image but there are many scandals just underneath the surface. Most of them are not widely known as most F1 journalists are content to produce only fluff pieces and don't write much about scandals, be it human or technical.

Perhaps it would be interesting for members to list the ‘scandals’ they personally know. It might amaze those ‘not in the know’.

Here are a few I know:


Honda cheated in 1987 and 1988. It developed a way over defeating the pop-off valve introduced by the FIA to neuter the turbo engines.

Brabham-BMW cheated in 1983 to win the first turbo title. They used illegal fuel to boost power. Renault was aware of this (as was most of the paddock) but was unwilling to challenge this and win the title after a protest. They might also have been wary of picking a fight with Ecclestone.

Sandro Nannini would take his mistress du jour to the races. His wife would occasionally attend which would cause problems for the Benetton team who would have to keep the two apart so Mrs. Nannini wouldn't catch on.

Alain Prost had an affair with his best friend’s wife. The friend was Jacques Laffite. Laffite was competing in the Paris-Dakar rally in 1989/1990 and was expected to be away from home for a few weeks. Unfortunately, his car broke down in the preliminary stages in France and he returned home early, only to find Prost and his wife in a compromising situation. (You can't make up this kind of incident )

[as65p]

Originally posted by taran
Formula One likes to present a squeaky clean image but there are many scandals just underneath the surface. Most of them are not widely known as most F1 journalists are content to produce only fluff pieces and don't write much about scandals, be it human or technical.

Perhaps it would be interesting for members to list the ‘scandals’ they personally know. It might amaze those ‘not in the know’.

Here are a few I know:


Honda cheated in 1987 and 1988. It developed a way over defeating the pop-off valve introduced by the FIA to neuter the turbo engines.

Brabham-BMW cheated in 1983 to win the first turbo title. They used illegal fuel to boost power. Renault was aware of this (as was most of the paddock) but was unwilling to challenge this and win the title after a protest. They might also have been wary of picking a fight with Ecclestone.

Sandro Nannini would take his mistress du jour to the races. His wife would occasionally attend which would cause problems for the Benetton team who would have to keep the two apart so Mrs. Nannini wouldn't catch on.

Alain Prost had an affair with his best friend’s wife. The friend was Jacques Laffite. Laffite was competing in the Paris-Dakar rally in 1989/1990 and was expected to be away from home for a few weeks. Unfortunately, his car broke down in the preliminary stages in France and he returned home early, only to find Prost and his wife in a compromising situation. (You can't make up this kind of incident )

Strange selection... I think there were a lot more prominent transgressions over time. Plus the "cheating your wife stuff" hasn't really got anything to do with F1, or does it?

On Honda, IIRC they simply were clever enough to limit their boost slightly below the point were the pop-off would kick in, thereby avoiding the sudden momentary loss of power that caused. I don't think they ran with more boost than allowed at any point, so this is actually called clever engineering, not cheating. Unless you have different information?

[stevewf1]

I heard Rene Arnoux "did something" which caused him to be fired from Ferrari in 1985. I've never heard what it was other than it was "scandalous"...

[FA and RK fan]

wow, i didn't know about any of those, thnx taran.

Unfortunately, i don't know any such stories/incidents/scandals. :

[rolf123]

Great stuff, I didn't know Prost was such a dirty bastard! He presents a very squeaky clean image. I respect him even more now ;)

[RacingMonk]

I thought one of the reasons Prost was 'let go' by Renault in 83 was that he had an affair with a senior Renault manager's wife.

[taran]

Originally posted by as65p


Strange selection... I think there were a lot more prominent transgressions over time. Plus the "cheating your wife stuff" hasn't really got anything to do with F1, or does it?

On Honda, IIRC they simply were clever enough to limit their boost slightly below the point were the pop-off would kick in, thereby avoiding the sudden momentary loss of power that caused. I don't think they ran with more boost than allowed at any point, so this is actually called clever engineering, not cheating. Unless you have different information?

Feel free to add your own selection. These were just a few I remembered.

As far as I know, Honda managed to find a way they could overpower the pop-off valve without losing boost pressure, allowing them to produce much more power than the other turbo engines.


The Rene Arnoux affair has always remained a secret AFAIK but it has been suggested that Arnoux was sniffing around Piero Lardi's (very) young daughter at the time. Lardi is of course Enzo's illegitimate son and a director at Ferrari.

In a case of history repeating itself; in 1979 Frank Williams screwed Clay Regazzoni by stringing him along although he had already signed Carlos Reutemann for 1980. Regazzoni was unable to find a competitive drive when finally told he would not be resigned. In 1996, Frank Williams strung Damon Hill along although he had already signed Frentzen for 1980. Hill was unable to find a competitive drive when finally told he would not be resigned.

Another scandal of sorts is the withdrawal of Alfa Romeo in 1987. Alfa had returned to F1 in 1979 but had not been successful. It withdrew its semi-factory team in 1985 and signed to provide new 4-cylinder turbo engines to Ligier for 1987 and beyond. Ligier duly signed the Italian Piercarlo Ghinzani to partner Rene Arnoux. But between 1985 and 1987, the FIA banned turbo engines for 1989 and Alfa Romeo was acquired by FIAT. A F1 (turbo) program was no longer desirable but Ligier had a rock solid contract. But after Arnoux mildly criticized the engine after its first test run, Alfa Romeo used the criticism to declare the contract invalid. Ligier was left without an engine, just weeks before the start of the season.

[wingwalker]

Well, the whole 1994 Benetton saga.

[HistoricMustang]

Well, the affair thing more than likely went both ways.

And, thank goodness NASCAR is not mentioned as we could be here for days on end.

Henry

[Seebar]

Originally posted by taran

Brabham-BMW cheated in 1983 to win the first turbo title. They used illegal fuel to boost power. Renault was aware of this (as was most of the paddock) but was unwilling to challenge this and win the title after a protest. They might also have been wary of picking a fight with Ecclestone.

Interesting post and quite a few things I didn't know. The Brabham's fuel was fishy, expensive, toxic,... but AFAIK not against the rules. Probably against the spirit of the rules, but so was everybody's (including Renault's) fuel . I don't know what the specific rules were in 1983, but I think about the only thing that was really written down was the octane level (102?). The fuel would have enabled WWII Messerschmidts to fly during a lead shortage, but didn't exceed 102.

[Paolo]

Originally posted by Seebär



Interesting post and quite a few things I didn't know. The Brabham's fuel was fishy, expensive, toxic,... but AFAIK not against the rules. Probably against the spirit of the rules, but so was everybody's (including Renault's) fuel . I don't know what the specific rules were in 1983, but I think about the only thing that was really written down was the octane level (102?). The fuel would have enabled WWII Messerschmidts to fly during a lead shortage, but didn't exceed 102.

If I remember correctly, the Brabham fuel was indeed found illegal; an Italian magazine (Autosprint or Rombo) commented that it had such an high specific weight that it could not be considered "gasoline" as required by the rules.

Octane number was OK, but had Renault wanted to protest they would have had a case.

[as65p]

Originally posted by taran


Feel free to add your own selection. These were just a few I remembered.

I'd rather not. Some of the things I (and I'm sure a few others) remember would quickly turn the thread into something unpleasant. Today I don't feel like taking responsibility for that...;)

As far as I know, Honda managed to find a way they could overpower the pop-off valve without losing boost pressure, allowing them to produce much more power than the other turbo engines.

Adding a bit of information on the pop-off valve issue, from Ian Bamseys "McLaren Honda Turbo, A Technical Appraisal":

As we have noted, an even more significant factor at first was the adverse effect of the '88 specification pop off valve. This was of a completely different design to that run in '87 and was introduced late: Honda had only a month's warning of it's unfriendly characteristics, too little time in which to effect fundamental engine modification prior to Rio. The new pop off opened in a different manner and once opened pressure tumbled to 2.0 bar and still the valve didn't close properly. Clearly, one could not afford to blow the pop off open. However, in the case of the XE1, on overrun the effect of a shut throttle and a still spinning compressor (the turbine not instantly stopping, of course) could cause pressure in the plenum to overshoot 2.5 bar. In blowing the pop off open, that adversely affected the next acceleration. The answer to the problem was in the form of the so called XE2, which was first run by Piquet at the Monza test prior to Imola and was run by all four Honda cars in the San Marino Grand Prix. The XE2 changed the throttle position, remov-ing the separate butterfly for each inlet tract and instead putting a butterfly in each bank's charge plumbing just ahead of the plenum inlet and thus ahead of the pop off. As a consequence, pressure build up behind the throttle on the overrun was not feit by the new FISA valve. While the six butterfly Option had been identi-fied as ideal, a further benefit of the new two butterfly System was of less turbulence in the inlet tract at part throttle. The higher turbulence had adversely affected carburation and reducing it assisted the quest to reduce combustion.

So that's the (semi-)official line, just for reference. If you have different info, don't hold back!

;)

[Paolo]

About wife affairs, it would be probably better to avoid posting these, or at least, avoiding to name people.

Imagine if your wife betrayed you and you found the info posted all over the Net for years to come.
No need to inflict such a pain to people who already suffered, IMHO.

[Stephen W]

The Tyrrell water ballast affair.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Paolo
About wife affairs, it would be probably better to avoid posting these, or at least, avoiding to name people.

Imagine if your wife betrayed you and you found the info posted all over the Net for years to come.
No need to inflict such a pain to people who already suffered, IMHO.

Very well put

[Tony Mandara]

Originally posted by Paolo
About wife affairs, it would be probably better to avoid posting these, or at least, avoiding to name people.

Imagine if your wife betrayed you and you found the info posted all over the Net for years to come.
No need to inflict such a pain to people who already suffered, IMHO.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Couldn't agree more.

as65p

Paolo

Tony.

Edit: Sorry, bit slow with that post! Goes for you too D-Type

[f1steveuk]

While I see the interest of the thread, having worked for who I worked for, and how ever eye-popping the stories, there is no way I'm repeating them!!! Likewise with the "affairs" part. I started to research a book about a couple of drivers, and spoke to another driver/mutual friend, and the bed hopping antics of all of them was staggering, and some of those involved are still alive, and I was asked not to repeat it all, so there are many levels on which I wouldn't feel comfortable, and without the names/teams/personalities involved, the stories cease to be interesting. Sorry!

[Rob]

One of the most shameful I think has to be the kangaroo court which targeted Riccardo Patrese.

[Paolo]

Well, it is possible to report the sin, even without naming the sinners....

a favourite of mine is the wife of a team manager coming home and finding her husband in bed with his driver...

[Paolo]

Originally posted by Rob
One of the most shameful I think has to be the kangaroo court which targeted Riccardo Patrese.

I think you refer to the Peterson incident aftermath?

That was a scandal indeed, especially since it was later proven that the accident was actually originated by James Hunt, one of the most vocals against Riccardo.

It must be remembered, anyway, that Hunt corageously went into the flames to rescue Peterson from the burning Lotus.

[taran]

I (obviously) have to disagree with the “let’s not discuss their womanizing, it may hurt their feelings” brigade. Naturally, my intent would not be to hurt anyone’s feelings but I do not believe for a moment Mrs. Nannini (to name but one) is trolling websites looking for dirt on her husband.

My intent is simply to show that F1 has a darker side. Cheating, unsportsmanlike behaviour, unethical behaviour, backstabbing, etc. It is all there but not widely known. Sometimes, one particular journalist might report something but not the others. I think it might be interesting and perhaps even enlightening if we share those stories.

By all means, ‘anonymize’ if you must but I’d rather hear that Ken Tyrrell did this or that than “a team principal of a predominantly blue team with wood chips on his shoulder”.

[Rob]

Originally posted by Paolo
I think you refer to the Peterson incident aftermath?

That was a scandal indeed, especially since it was later proven that the accident was actually originated by James Hunt, one of the most vocals against Riccardo.

It must be remembered, anyway, that Hunt corageously went into the flames to rescue Peterson from the burning Lotus.

Regardless of who was at fault, it was an accident. To start a witch hunt over a fatal accident, in which it was questionable as to who was responsible anyway, was downright disgusting. Even long after the event, and after it was established that Hunt may have started the accident, Hunt still had it in for Patrese. I got the impression that the drivers were determined to find their scapegoat. It's shameful when F1 drivers become a bloodthirsty pack of wolves.

[Paolo]

Originally posted by taran
I (obviously) have to disagree with the “let’s not discuss their womanizing, it may hurt their feelings” brigade. Naturally, my intent would not be to hurt anyone’s feelings but I do not believe for a moment Mrs. Nannini (to name but one) is trolling websites looking for dirt on her husband.

My intent is simply to show that F1 has a darker side. Cheating, unsportsmanlike behaviour, unethical behaviour, backstabbing, etc. It is all there but not widely known. Sometimes, one particular journalist might report something but not the others. I think it might be interesting and perhaps even enlightening if we share those stories.

By all means, ‘anonymize’ if you must but I’d rather hear that Ken Tyrrell did this or that than “a team principal of a predominantly blue team with wood chips on his shoulder”.

I'll put it another way then.

You could get sued.

[taran]

Originally posted by Paolo




I'll put it another way then.

You could get sued.

Sued

Methinks you take this BB way too serious. People don't get sued for swapping stories on internet. Specially when they are true ;)

[Risil]

Originally posted by taran


Sued

Methinks you take this BB way too serious. People don't get sued for swapping stories on internet. Specially when they are true ;)

You are aware that in a legal sense, Atlas is 'publishing' everything that's written here?

[F3Wrench]

Blimey. Talk about opening a can of worms....

TBH, one of the reasons I am hesitating to write a book is because a lot of my memories involve some pretty scandalous events, some funny and some not so funny. But apart from the legal and moral implications I reckon it's a sort of tabloid sensationalism to bang out a rumour about some driver having an affair with another driver's wife, although I can see there's an appetite for this sort of thing. Not for me really.

The other area that worries me a bit is that (especially in club racing) there were/are a lot of really dodgy characters, with "connections" IYKWIM. Going racing was and is hugely expensive and was often funded by some racket, and a lot of villains are real petrolheads. To illustrate what I mean in a small way, there were a number of saloon cars that arrived on the grid with the body/chassis of some poor bloke's daily transport that had been nicked a couple of weeks before. I hasten to point out that I was not involved in any of these dastardly deeds, just that I was aware of it.

Not to mention the guys who just never paid their bills and had debtors all over the country ready to present them with some concrete slippers and take them swimming in the Thames if they didn't get paid. It wasn't funny being a mechanic and trying to fend off the creditors...

If I was a moderator, I think I'd be very nervous about this thread.

[taran]

Originally posted by Risil


You are aware that in a legal sense, Atlas is 'publishing' everything that's written here?

I am aware that this is a BB/forum so under Dutch law, it is covered under freedom of speech. For it to be a legal matter in this context, the stories must be proven to be false. And since most of these stories have been reported by F1 journalists/magazines over the years, they would be liable in the first instance because a reader may expect any article to have been researched (sufficiently to pass legal muster).

Still, I find this reluctance to discuss the more shady aspects of F1 rather puzzling.
First the "embarrassment" card is played.
Then the "legal/you could be sued" card.
What's next? "Be careful, you could be banned?"

You people work for the FIA or what? For Bernie?

If you don't want to read about this topic or feel its inappropriate, don't read this thread. Nobody's forcing you!

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by taran

don't read this thread. Nobody's forcing you!

I did, just in case it was interesting, but I won't need do that again.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Paolo
Well, it is possible to report the sin, even without naming the sinners....

a favourite of mine is the wife of a team manager coming home and finding her husband in bed with his driver...

I enjoyed the story about a very British team owner being found in one of the mechanics in the back of the team's transporter!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by taran


Sued

Methinks you take this BB way too serious. People don't get sued for swapping stories on internet. Specially when they are true ;)

This BB has been sued before.

[taran]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


This BB has been sued before.

Now that is a story I'd like to know more about.

[Paolo]

I don't know about Dutch Law, but under Italian law reporting a fact that harms the image of a person, if this fact has no juridical relevance, constitutes libel (diffamazione), even if the fact is true.

That's why in Italy there are no gay football players, to say one.

[stevewf1]

Trying to get this on track before the moderators throw this off the board completely (It's already been bumped off the Racing Comments)...

Has anyone read Perry McCarthy's book "Flat Out, Flat Broke"? There is an account of McCarthy's "big moment" at Eau Rouge when the steering rack seized. McCarthy relates that the team manager knew it was faulty and ordered it put on Perry's car anyway...

[Tony Mandara]

From the "BB house Rules" as written by Bira:
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Drivers and teams are public domain. They are there to be adored and scorned, admired and admonished, revered and questioned constantly. But, there is a fine line between scorning/admonishing/questioning and defaming/wrongly accusing/slandering. It's not always easy to know where that fine line lies.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Controversial issues such as Team/Driver infringments are one thing as this is all done, essentially, in public view. Marital/Extra marital affairs are not (usually) conducted in public.


Edit to get back to subject:

Wasn't it Colin Chapman who ordered the wings to be removed from Jochen Rindt's car which may felt was a great contributory factor in his fatal accident?


Tony.

[RobertE]

I'll lob in the treatment of Peter Collins by his employers...

[taran]

Indeed, back to the stories.

Jacques Laffite claimed Frank Williams deliberately sabotaged his chances by giving him an inferior car in 1984. As Laffite tells it, he did reasonably well in 1983 and occasionally matched Rosberg. He was also better at dealing with the temperamental Honda turbo. But Williams wanted a British driver for 1985 because of his sponsors and needed to drive Laffite away.

Sounds somewhat far fetched but F1 has seen many seemingly strange decisions which made sense when you look at the money trail. Mansell duly signed for 1985 while Laffite (already written off by many) surprised all and sundry with his speed in 1985/1986, doing much better than he did with a Williams. Coincidence?

Not quite a scandal but perhaps interesting is the Pironi story. Didier Pironi was of course on of the most ambitious French drivers and probably one of the fastest. He couldn't beat Villeneuve however so resorted to mind games. After his horrible crash in 1982, he managed a comeback and tested for Ligier in 1985/1986. Fast enough to warrant another chance, he retired because he would have had to return his insurance payout if he returned to F1. Instead, he went racing on water and (probably predictably) died when his power boat crashed.

The Ferrari/Minardi/Pioneer story
In 1990, Minardi was doing pretty well and managed to get a supply of Ferrari engines for 1991 (and beyond). It also managed to get a big sponsor; Pioneer. The electronics company would provide around $10-$15m which was serious money in those days. Ferrari was asking $7m for its engines and wanted to know how Minardi would be paying for them. Minardi duly told them Pioneer would become their main sponsor. Ferrari secretly approached Pioneer and convinced them to sign with them instead. Minardi was left without a sponsor that year and were in fact unable to pay for the Ferrari engines. At the end of the year, Ferrari went with BMS Dallara and Minardi opted for Lamborghini engines but Minardi never paid for the engines and Ferrari never dared force the issue.

[Tony Mandara]

In 2007 Fernando Alonso claimed that McLaren and Ron Dennis.......



OH HELL NO!!!!!


Tony

[stevewf1]

I remember that a cigarette brand called "Black Death" had just been signed on as a sponsor with the Simtek team and their sponsorship debut was to take place at the San Marino GP 1994...

[Tony Mandara]

Ooohhhh. That would have been as untimely as the ads I keep seeing on the TV at the moment encouraging me to visit Thailand and India!!!!


Tony.

[f1steveuk]

"You people work for the FIA or what? For Bernie?!

Not now, but did.........................

[i]Wasn't it Colin Chapman who ordered the wings to be removed from Jochen Rindt's car which may felt was a great contributory factor in his fatal accident?


Tony. [/B]

Absolutely not. I interviewed Peter Warr last summer. We talked about the 72, and Rindt's accident, and the decision to remove the wings, on the gearing, and on tyres were solely the drivers.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


This BB has been sued before.

As nearly was another forum I use on a different sport, it ended up closing before legal procedings could occur due posts being posted with no evidence about supposed activities of individuals, so in this country what's posted on the Internet is a possible legal area

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by stevewf1
I remember that a cigarette brand called "Black Death" had just been signed on as a sponsor with the Simtek team and their sponsorship debut was to take place at the San Marino GP 1994...

From Monaco, the next round if I recall correctly. I remember being given a promo pack when I handed in an obit about Senna for the student rag, they tasted rank.

[Tony Mandara]

Originally posted by f1steveuk



Absolutely not. I interviewed Peter Warr last summer. We talked about the 72, and Rindt's accident, and the decision to remove the wings, on the gearing, and on tyres were solely the drivers.

Thank you. I stand well and truly corrected. Apologies for my unnerving ignorance.;)


Tony.

[Formula Once]

Quote: Jacques Laffite claimed Frank Williams deliberately sabotaged his chances by giving him an inferior car in 1984.

When Jaques finished in the top three at Long Beach in 1983 he was suprised to see that all the team had left when he got back to the pits. "Yeah, they tried to f*** me around all the time", he once told me. "Don't get me wrong, I like Frank and Patrick, no hard feelings, but it was a strange team."

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by Formula Once
Quote: Jacques Laffite claimed Frank Williams deliberately sabotaged his chances by giving him an inferior car in 1984.

When Jaques finished in the top three at Long Beach in 1983 he was suprised to see that all the team had left when he got back to the pits. "Yeah, they tried to f*** me around all the time", he once told me. "Don't get me wrong, I like Frank and Patrick, no hard feelings, but it was a strange team."

In line with this,

wasn't that also the year in which Jacques had such a bad car on one weekend that he was in danger of failing to qualify (Detroit?) and then stated the legendary quote:

"Don't worry guys, I'll qualify the motorhome, that will get me in."


Henri

[wingwalker]

Could someone post more about this board being sued? Or provide a link? Or maybe PM me..? I'm just curious what was that was all about.



as for the stories, is not that much of one, but it is said that Jordan used TC in 1999.

[Rob]

Originally posted by wingwalker
as for the stories, is not that much of one, but it is said that Jordan used TC in 1999.

If Jordan were using TC in 1999 then they were not using it properly because they were being beaten

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by Tony Mandara



Thank you. I stand well and truly corrected. Apologies for my unnerving ignorance.;)


Tony.

Sorry, didn't mean that to sound (read!?) quite like that, I was unaware of the facts untill Peter well and truely put me straight! I believe the interview appears in the next Yesterdays Racers DVD

[Paolo]

Ghinzani claimed in a recent interview that when he was at Ligier with Arnoux he was given "wooden" tyres to avoid him outshine his teammate.

Once, yet, Ghinzani was able to grab some of Arnoux tyres... and beat him on Friday quali. Very irate Ligier personnel stormed on his car, found out what had happened and avoided it happen again in the remaining races...

[Risil]

Originally posted by Paolo

That's why in Italy there are no gay football players, to say one.

Other than Justin Fashanu, I can't think of any 'gay' footballers anywhere, and he was only outed as a result of his rather public lifestyle. One might suspect that any legal constraints are dwarfed by the constraints put on the players, by football's Brian Cloughs and Robbie Fowlers.