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All time low?


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#1 Formula Once

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 17:49

So now we are down to 8 different F1 team owners. Is that an all time low? I mean, 18-car entry lists were last seen in (I believe) 1970, but those 18 cars were at least owned by 10 or 11 different people.

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#2 FLB

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 17:52

The 1968 Spanish Grand Prix only had 13 starters.

#3 scheivlak

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 18:15

Originally posted by FLB
The 1968 Spanish Grand Prix only had 13 starters.

The 1969 French GP too.

#4 Formula Once

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 18:27

Yeah, I know. I am not talking 'bout grid sizes here, I am talking about the number of different team owners.

#5 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 18:54

Team owners?

Doesn't Bernie own all the teams?

#6 scheivlak

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 19:16

Originally posted by Formula Once
Yeah, I know. I am not talking 'bout grid sizes here, I am talking about the number of different team owners.


There were only 4 teams at the 1956 and 1957 Argentine GP!

The 1958 Argentine GP had the smallest grid ever: only 10 cars, but from 7 different teams.

#7 FLB

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 19:19

Originally posted by Formula Once
Yeah, I know. I am not talking 'bout grid sizes here, I am talking about the number of different team owners.

Well, let's see, then (Spain 1968) :

Chris Amon - Ferrari (Enzo Ferrari)
Jacky Ickx - Ferrari (Enzo Ferrari)

Ludovico Scarfiotti Cooper-BRM (Chipstead Motor Group)
Brian Redman Cooper-BRM (Chipstead Motor Group)

Denny Hulme McLaren (McLaren Cars)
Bruce McLaren McLaren-Ford (McLaren Cars)

Pedro Rodríguez BRM (Rubery Owen)
Jean-Pierre Beltoise Matra-Ford (Ken Tyrrell)
Graham Hill Lotus-Ford (ACB Chapman)
John Surtees Honda (Presumably Soichiro Honda)
Jochen Rindt Brabham-Repco (Motor Racing Developments, i.e. Jack Brabham and Ron Tauranac)
Jo Siffert Lotus-Ford (Rob Walker)
Piers Courage BRM (Tim Parnell, works-supported)

10 owners

#8 Formula Once

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 19:54

OK, thanks everyone. So it looks like we may now have the smallest number of F1 team owners in some 50 years and the smallest entry list since 1970. Unless, of course, Honda is indeed going to be sold...

#9 HistoricMustang

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 23:35

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Team owners?

Doesn't Bernie own all the teams?


Yes Ray, just as the France family does of NASCAR and Tony does with that other group here in the USofA.

And all have managed just about as good as the Big Three being discussed in that other thread.

There are a bunch of looser's at the current time!

Rich, but loosers! :mad:

Henry

#10 Rob G

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 00:00

There were eight team owners in the 1965 Mexican GP: the Brabham, Lotus, Honda, BRM, and Cooper works; Rob Walker; Reg Parnell; and Enzo Ferrari, ignoring the fact that Rodriguez's car was entered under the NART banner.

#11 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 08:01

Hang on...

What about some of the oddball races... like Italy in 1960?

#12 simon drabble

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 08:23

It is difficult to see how F1 can survive and indeed whether it has any relevance for sponsors in the current environment. I expect to see Williams and Force India to pull shortly and possibly McLaren in light of Ron Dennis' comments about his sponsorship benig down £100 million.

#13 SWB

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 08:50

Its easy, do what they used to do, and merge F1 and 'F2' grids (like the '67 German GP).

One of the great spectacles of this year in racing was the ALMS and the close and exciting racing, made more so by the need to overtake slower cars that in turn are racing in their own class. It would also give a number of the current F1 drivers some much needed incentive to race a bit harder, to stop the ultimate embarrassment of being beaten by an F2 car.

Steve

#14 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 08:53

Dont forget Toro Rosso , up for sale the last 2 years , and now back to Red Bull owner.! He never wanted 2 teams. And what about Toyota , will they continue to pour millions for nothing? Alonso wants his 3rd championship , but will Renault spend all that money needed ? Could we be on the verge of a 1952 situation when all went F2(Williams for 2010) ? And Cosworth soon providing a common unit ? In the end it could all be for the better , as the sport are way too high in expenses or prize money/salarys (as many others) IMO. Perhaps we are in for some kind of "Modern" garage teams ?

#15 HistoricMustang

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 10:16

Originally posted by SWB
Its easy, do what they used to do, and merge F1 and 'F2' grids (like the '67 German GP).

One of the great spectacles of this year in racing was the ALMS and the close and exciting racing, made more so by the need to overtake slower cars that in turn are racing in their own class. It would also give a number of the current F1 drivers some much needed incentive to race a bit harder, to stop the ultimate embarrassment of being beaten by an F2 car.

Steve


Good point Steve and I have often wondered why NASCAR has not developed some road circuit events at places like Daytona and Lowes where their fans can see the ENTIRE track.

Henry

#16 ensign14

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 10:28

We've a way to go before we get to 1926 levels...

#17 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 12:15

Originally posted by ensign14
We've a way to go before we get to 1926 levels...


....but, they're working on it.

#18 Stephen W

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 12:53

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps


....but, they're working on it.


They seem hell bent on breaking the record! :lol:

#19 Rob29

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 16:05

Originally posted by scheivlak




The 1958 Argentine GP had the smallest grid ever: only 10 cars, but from 7 different teams.

Not sure how you define a team.There was only ONE works team-Ferrari.Rob Walkers private Cooper and 6 private Maseratis-I think most if not all of these were looked after by the ex works mechanics?
1969 was the last season when the F1 entry was worse than it is now.

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#20 john t

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 16:25

Slightly off thread but the winter of 73/74 saw oil shortages, three day weeks and a barrage of people arguing that Grands Prix should be suspended. And yet by early January a full grid lined up for the new season. Maybe this was the all time low of uncertainty.

#21 flat-16

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 16:50

Fear not, I hear Bernie's in discussion with various new sponsors. Honda is going to be renamed 'Ocean Finance'. Williams will continue under the new name of 'Cash Converters'.

I'll get me coat...


Justin

#22 Macca

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 16:57

.............and STR will be known as Poundland!

I've already got mine..........


Paul M

#23 ensign14

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 17:06

Originally posted by Macca
.............and STR will be known as Poundland!

You will soon be able to buy Honda from there...

#24 Formula Once

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 17:10

Williams CEO Parr today says he expects at least one more team to close down before the new season (and its not Williams).

#25 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 17:14

Not that Williams are that strong...

#26 stevewf1

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 17:22

1952-1953. Run GP2 cars for awhile...

#27 kayemod

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 17:39

Originally posted by Rob29
1969 was the last season when the F1 entry was worse than it is now.


I suspect you meant 'smaller', though for a variety of reasons, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with your original choice of words.

#28 scheivlak

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 20:50

Originally posted by Rob29
Not sure how you define a team.There was only ONE works team-Ferrari.Rob Walkers private Cooper and 6 private Maseratis-I think most if not all of these were looked after by the ex works mechanics?
1969 was the last season when the F1 entry was worse than it is now.


I count 3 works Ferraris, the Rob Walker Cooper and 6 private Maseratis from 5 different teams - see http://www.forix.com...&r=19580001&c=1

#29 Doug Nye

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 21:39

Might you consider that Rob meant "there was only one works team (and that was Ferrari...") - which would, strictly speaking, be correct.

DCN

#30 scheivlak

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 21:43

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Might you consider that Rob meant "there was only one works team (and that was Ferrari...") - which would, strictly speaking, be correct.

DCN

Ah, I see!

But I was just try to follow the intentions of the thread starter ("how many team owners").

#31 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 21:54

But I was just try to follow the intentions of the thread starter ("how many team owners").


However, I think that it is clear that he is using the term "team owners" in its present context, its current operational definition, not as it was used historically.

#32 LB

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 21:55

Imola 1982

14 starters 7 teams

OK It's an anomaly but...

#33 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 22:13

And nobody's dared to mention the US GP of 2005 yet...

#34 scheivlak

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 22:26

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps


However, I think that it is clear that he is using the term "team owners" in its present context, its current operational definition, not as it was used historically.

Well, just because he was referring to 1970 - a rather bad example because it was a year with surprisingly fuller grids than '69 BTW!- it looked to me like he included the Rob Walkers and Colin Crabbes of the day as team owners.

#35 Formula Once

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 09:10

To clarify things: I was merely refering to 1970 as the last example of regular 18-car entry lists, although there have been incidental exceptions since of course, such as Spain 1968 and San Marino 1982.

As for the definition of 'team owner', things have changed of course.

#36 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 09:40

Originally posted by LB
Imola 1982

14 starters 7 teams

OK It's an anomaly but...


Given that practice and qualifying results are generally 'unofficial' what about Indy 2005? :p

#37 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 09:45

Is it only a matter of time for the FIA to abandon the strictly-two-cars-per-team rule? It would be nice to see Jenson in the fourth McLaren next year as well as Vettel in the fifth Ferrari!!

#38 Stephen W

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 11:18

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
Is it only a matter of time for the FIA to abandon the strictly-two-cars-per-team rule? It would be nice to see Jenson in the fourth McLaren next year as well as Vettel in the fifth Ferrari!!


How about Nigel Mansell in the seventeenth Williams?

:lol: