69 replies to this topic

[Felix Muelas]

Some time ago in another thread I wrote

Originally posted by Felix Muelas


20th and 21st May 1950. Monaco GP.
You might have heard this story several times, so I´ll expand just the necessary.
Moss and Schell win their respective Heats in the supporting F3 race, and Moss finally wins the final.
Schell then installs a 1.100cc JAP engine in place of his usual 500cc in the Cooper T12, and takes the start of the Grand Prix at the back.
There is the famous pile-up on lap one and the Cooper F1 debut ends there.

Now, if you want an "explanation" of how Schell got an entry for the Grand Prix race at the wheel of that "upgraded" F3 car, I don´t have one!
Nye refers to the fact as a "wangle", and I think I might have read sometime ago that an authomatic entry for the winner of the F3 race would be a possibility, but that leaves unexplained in my memory why wasn´t Moss then the participant...

I have not really made any progress on this over the last few years (eight to be precise). So I come back to this House of Knowledge with again the same basic questions, plus...

a) What is the accepted story behind Cooper´s entry into the Monaco 1950 Grand Prix?

b) Any truth with the winner of the F3 race "earning" a place at the end of the GP grid?

c) The fact that the Cooper entry comes with number 8 suggests that an alphabetical order for nationality of entries had been followed (as usual). Argentina qualifying for numbers 2 and 4 (Gonzalez and Pian), 6 for Belgique and 8 for Etats Unis... So again, this doesn´t look like an "improvised" last-minute entry, if you see my point.

d) The Cooper T12 with its twin engine was used later in the season. I have always understood this machine to be the one in which poor Raymond Sommer was killed in Cadours later in the summer. Am I right in understanding that, with that engine, the Cooper was actually accountable as a Formula 2 racer? Did it actually took the start of some F2 races that year? (Sorry, I do not have the Sheldon at hand)

e) When did this invention/occurrence of substituting the 500cc JAP engine on the back of the Cooper for a 1,000cc (or was it a 1,100cc?) took place for the first time? Surely not in the context of the Monaco Grand Prix...I am somehow convinced that the "experiment" had already been tested.

f) Does the fact that Herry Schell took the start of the Grand Prix (without a practice time to his credit) means that he, or his team, would have qualified for starting money?

Thanks, gentleman...

Un abrazo,

[David McKinney]

Good to see you haven't forgotten us, Felix

Partial answer only:-

The first man to fit a 'big' engine to a Cooper was Spike Rhiando, in 1948, and several more followed. In fact, I am open to correction, but think that as early as 1949 the factory were offering cars with a slightly longer chassis the better to accommodate twin-cylinder engines - if not 1949 then certainly 1950.

As they had unsupercharged engines of less than 2000cc capacity they qualified under Formula 2, and many took part in F2 races in the early '50s, not only in the UK but on the Continent as well. Remember Stirling Moss's famous third place behind two Ferraris in the 1949 Garda F2 race?

I would have thought that Schell's Monaco GP car was a different one from his F3 car, but that's only supposition. ISTR he contested both the 500cc and 1100cc class of French hillclimbs that year, and surely would not have changed engines between runs.

[fines]

Hola Félix, y féliz navidad!

I can't add much to David's, but like him I always understood it to be a different car, i.e. one of the enlarged F2 Coopers, or Cooper 1000s as they were mostly called back then, I believe. I don't for a minute believe the story that you could earn a starting spot in the F3 race! As for starting money, i may be wrong but I believe you needed to complete one full lap for that, although I'd guess you could always argue a force majeure case!?

[GIGLEUX]

Felix, so nice to see you again with us!

I have quite a lot of stuff about this race but nothing about the F3 winner being qualified for the GP itself. It seems to be a tale.

[RStock]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
Some time ago in another thread I wrote





b) Any truth with the winner of the F3 race "earning" a place at the end of the GP grid?

Thanks, gentleman...

Un abrazo,

I'm pretty sure Stirling Moss won that race anyway .

[Felix Muelas]

Thanks a lot for the warm welcome (back) !

David, your comment is very interesting, as it actually takes back quite some time the "origin" of the beast, so to speak. I think I need more than ever to recover my copy of Doug´s Cooper Cars and stop working from memory alone!

Michael, my comment on the starting money was just to try to make some (underlying) sense to the story, but now that you mention...would they have received their share?

Jean Maurice, I think I took the alphabetic-per-country thing from a commnet of yours some time ago so, do you think it can be agreed that the Cooper entry was planned with quite some time?

As for REDARMYSOJA, a pleasure meeting you. Yes, I am also sure Moss won the F3 race hence the nonsense...

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas

e) When did this invention/occurrence of substituting the 500cc JAP engine on the back of the Cooper for a 1,000cc (or was it a 1,100cc?) took place for the first time? Surely not in the context of the Monaco Grand Prix...I am somehow convinced that the "experiment" had already been tested.

Hola Félix!

Having DCN's book to hand, the T12 had a slightly longer (one inch!) frame than the "normal" T11, developed specifically for the 1100cc JAP engine. Apart from 'Arree, purchasers included Bertie Bradnack, George Hartwell, Lionel Leonard and others.

No definite dates for this, but Doug implies early 1950. However, his text re Monaco is a bit vague, with the most obvious reading of it being that Schell used the same car in both races.

[RStock]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas


As for REDARMYSOJA, a pleasure meeting you. Yes, I am also sure Moss won the F3 race hence the nonsense...

Thank you for the kind words Felix . And it is a pleasure to meet you also .

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas

Jean Maurice, I think I took the alphabetic-per-country thing from a commnet of yours some time ago so, do you think it can be agreed that the Cooper entry was planned with quite some time?

Yes, we explored this at length with reference to both the Monaco and Swiss GPs. Schell was obviously an early enough entry to be assigned his correct Etats-Unis place in the list. This is just a guess, but perhaps he originally intended to race something more appropriate to the event - borrowing or hiring a Maserati, Ferrari or Talbot - and the deal fell through? Given his family history, he'd have been well-connected in Monaco, so even if that was the case he would have been able to hang on to the entry, even if all he could offer was the Cooper.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

This is just a guess, but perhaps he originally intended to race something more appropriate to the event - borrowing or hiring a Maserati, Ferrari or Talbot - and the deal fell through?

Richard,

Se non e vero, e ben trovato!

Over the years I have learnt to respect some of your lateral approaches, if only because a high percentage of them ended up been perfectly accurate. I like the aspect of the story plus it makes some sense into a story that otherwise has none!

[GIGLEUX]

Well Felix, at first Schell with his Cooper is in the official programme and a programme is not printed the day of the race!
Secondly I also found Schell-Cooper in what was published by the local newspapers, Nice-Matin and L'Espoir de Nice, in their 13th of may edition; the race was the 21st of may. The Motor 24th of may relating the race said Schell had a 1100 Cooper.
More interesting is in The Autocar, 26th of may and giving the order of the starting grid: "...and lastly Schell, his Cooper now equipped with a 1100cc J.A.P. engine, with which he had not, of course, practised.".

[Felix Muelas]

OK, Jean-Maurice

In my defence I did not say that Richard is 100% succesful on his guesses... (I know, jumping to early conclusions is a sin. Never learn ...

OK, Jean-Maurice, I will accept gladly those news about "some" reasonable anticipation of the Cooper presence. It makes some sense now to remember Cadours. Let me explain why.

Remi Paolozzi @ 8W on his article on Sommer places Schell with the T12 in France (Aix-les-Bains) around the time of the Monaco GP (maybe the weekend after?) and I quote :

Originally written by Remi Paolozzi in 8W

There were only three non-French cars: François Antonelli´s "classic" Maserati 6CM plus two Cooper-JAP T12s, one for Sommer, the always spectacular French ace, and the other for Schell, the son of the founders of former Ecurie Bleue: Lucy and Laury.
It was the second time that the 1100cc-engined British car appeared in a race. The first time was in late-May at the Circuit du Lac in Aix-les-Bains where Harry Schell gave up during the final because of gearbox failure after winning his qualification heat. Those small 250kg cars could reach 170kph on the Cadours straight thanks to a 92hp engine.

Interesting comments, I have to say. Together with Jean-Maurice´s we are starting to get out a reasonable picture...

But then, did Bradnack, Hartwell, Leonard and the others (how many T12s were around in 1950?) raced in F2 during the year?

And following the logic path of Remi Paolozzi, was there any other Continental appearances apart from Schell and Sommer?

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
"...and lastly Schell, his Cooper now equipped with a 1100cc J.A.P. engine, with which he had not, of course, practised.".

We need -at least I do- some guidance in the interpretation of the English language, from one of our distinguished gentlemen / posters.

What is the "of course" supposed to mean in that sentence? To my Spanish way of seeing it, "of course" would be the equivalent of "obviosuly", so implying that there would be an evident / obvious reason, that everybody knows or understands, that prevents in this case the car from practising.

Is it that twist? Or should it be read in conjunction with the "now equipped" that would be the obvious reason we would be looking for?

You see, sometimes even reading and attempting to translate an apparently innocent sentence on the Autocar could lead to a headache...almost 60 years later!

[Geoff E]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
e) When did this invention/occurrence of substituting the 500cc JAP engine on the back of the Cooper for a 1,000cc (or was it a 1,100cc?) took place for the first time? Surely not in the context of the Monaco Grand Prix...I am somehow convinced that the "experiment" had already been tested.

John Cooper drove "the first" 1000cc Cooper at Shelsley Walsh on 12 June 1948

then 11 June 1949 "John Cooper himself and Stirling Moss both drove 1000cc Coopers" again at Shelsley Walsh.

In 1950, John Cooper drove a 500cc while Michael Christie drove an 1100cc Kieft.

(Source: "Ton Up" - Centenary Book of Midland Automobile Club)

[Vitesse2]

Just a question, Jean-Maurice: do you have any details for the retirement reasons for the Talbots of Behra and Sommer in the GP de Paris? Neither car seems to have been in Monaco ....

Geoff: those were earlier Marks/Types of Cooper. The "T" numbering system was applied retrospectively in an attempt to sort out the mess that was Cooper history - both the T11 and T12 were just Mark IVs as far as Cooper were concerned! The T12 was designed specifically for a new engine developed by JAP.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas


We need -at least I do- some guidance in the interpretation of the English language, from one of our distinguished gentlemen / posters.

What is the "of course" supposed to mean in that sentence? To my Spanish way of seeing it, "of course" would be the equivalent of "obviosuly", so implying that there would be an evident / obvious reason, that everybody knows or understands, that prevents in this case the car from practising.

Is it that twist? Or should it be read in conjunction with the "now equipped" that would be the obvious reason we would be looking for?

You see, sometimes even reading and attempting to translate an apparently innocent sentence on the Autocar could lead to a headache...almost 60 years later!

I think we'd need to see the whole report, Felix. It's probably the work of Sammy Davis and that "obviously" might refer to something elsewhere ... perhaps even elsewhere in the magazine!

[RStock]

Felix . There are several stories on the 1950 Monaco race at the Juan Manuel Fangio site , one written by Gabby Crombac . Perhaps it will help shed some light . It is in Spanish , so you can understand it better than I , I'm sure . Translating it make it even harder to understand . But there is something there about Schell's entry .

http://www.jmfangio....95002monaco.htm

[Allen Brown]

How nice to see such a thread again. I noticed a sudden whiff of leather-backed armchair.

Welcome back Felix.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Geoff E

John Cooper drove "the first" 1000cc Cooper at Shelsley Walsh on 12 June 1948
then 11 June 1949 "John Cooper himself and Stirling Moss both drove 1000cc Coopers" again at Shelsley Walsh.
In 1950, John Cooper drove a 500cc while Michael Christie drove an 1100cc Kieft.
(Source: "Ton Up" - Centenary Book of Midland Automobile Club)

Red herring, Geoff
Those dates apply only to Shelsley
Rhiando's big car had been at the Empire Trophy meeting in May

[GIGLEUX]

Geoff: as far as I know, first apparition of a 1000cc Cooper was at the Manx Cup, IOM, the 25/05/1948: the Alvin "Spike" Rhiando Cooper T9 with a JAP engine.
Felix: 1100 Coopers on continent in F2 races during 1950.
-07/05 Erlen: Louis Noverraz T12 JAP
-28/05 Circuit du lac Aix-les-Bains Harry Schell T12 JAP and Louis Noverraz T12 JAP
-04/05 Prix de Berne Louis Noverraz and Harry Schell
-30/07 Prix de Genève Harry Schell
-20/08 GP v.Deutschland Harry Schell
-10/09 Mettet Harry Schell
-10/09 Cadours Philippe Schell and Raymond Sommer
-17/09 Périgueux Philippe and Harry Schell and "Pagnibon"
15/10 Garda Harry Schell and Stan Coldham
Richard: GP de Paris 30/04. Sommer retired with engine troubles. Why Behra? the only time he drove a Talbot was at the 1949 Coupe du Salon. Sommer drove a Ferrari at Monaco because he was an official driver of the Scuderia.

[GIGLEUX]

Felix, explaination of "of course": practice sessions for GP race: 19 and 20/05. F3 race was on 20/05. So, Schell,"of course", had not enough time to change his engine and practice for the GP race; seems obvious.

[GIGLEUX]

Some interrogations about the cars used by Philippe Schell and Pagnibon: 1100 or F3-500.

[Barry Boor]

Sorry I have nothing whatsoever to add to the thread other than to say WELCOME BACK and HOLA, Felix.

[Adam F]

Having looked closely at the published photos of Harry Schell's car both in the Monaco 500cc race (race No. 6) and in the Monaco Grand Prix (race no. 8), there is not any discernible difference between the cars. Indeed the car in the 500cc race has the twin fillers visible behind the headrest which were apparently needed for additional fuel & oil in the larger-engined configuration.
The best photos are in DCN's "Cooper Cars" p42 & 45, and in Naquin and Moity's two comprehensive books on the Monaco GP.
Indeed it rather looks as if the race number was not repainted, but simply converted from a "6" to an "8" before Schell started his short-lived run in the Monaco Grand Prix.

[HiRich]

Coming at it from a 500 view...

As already explained, the "Twin" idea dates back to the very first production Coopers in 1948. It does appear that Spike was the instigator, but several of the first dozen cars were built with the fractionally longer chassis (pretty much indistinguishable to all but the poor mechanic trying to shoehorn the engine in). There was a works chassis and George Abecassis' car was this (in Doug's book, pp26 there is a group shot, George's car is third from the left, Charles Cooper aboard, and an odd box on the engine cover). The cars qualified as Formula 2, but perhaps more importantly for the 1100cc hillclimb class that seemed rather popular.

In 1949, Moss attempted to enter the Dutch Grand Prix with his Cooper Mk III fitted with a Twin (he won the 500 race). Perhaps history would be very different if he had not been refused.

By 1950, long-chassis cars were commonplace, as it was quite easy to swap engines and run in two races on the same day. Without looking at the detailed schedule for Monaco, it is quite surprising that Harry Schell was unable to make the swap. It appears that Harry and Phillippe both owned Mk IVs (if so, almost certainly in the same colours) - this might explain David's comment about Harry running both 500 and 1100 classes at hillclimbs. But it does appear that Harry used one chassis for both races, as the Autocar report implies - whilst the fillers Adam mentions actually tell us little (both seem to also have been fitted on the 500-only chassis as well), I can't spot any differences between the 500 and 1100 photo I have from Monaco. In the Formula III race, Moss set fastest lap at 2' 05.8" in good conditions, so it doesn't appear that Harry lost grid positions by not qualifying.

At Aix-le Bains a week later, Sommer also drove in the Formula III race. Some sources indicate a works chassis, others indicate the second Schell car (Harry winning the race).

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Adam F
Having looked closely at the published photos of Harry Schell's car both in the Monaco 500cc race (race No. 6) and in the Monaco Grand Prix (race no. 8), there is not any discernible difference between the cars. Indeed the car in the 500cc race has the twin fillers visible behind the headrest which were apparently needed for additional fuel & oil in the larger-engined configuration.

I have been doing a similar exercise, Adam. Because of not having the original documentation at hand, I just relied on these two shots that effectively, in my eyes, show no obvious difference between the two.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by HiRich
The cars qualified as Formula 2, but perhaps more importantly for the 1100cc hillclimb class that seemed rather popular.

That is a very interesting remark, HiRich. And again one of those that makes things acquire sense reatroactively...

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I noticed a sudden whiff of leather-backed armchair.

Thanks, Allen.

I suddenly feel back at home, so to speak

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by HiRich
The cars qualified as Formula 2, but perhaps more importantly for the 1100cc hillclimb class that seemed rather popular.

I don't know if I'd agree with "more importantly"
In 1950, as an example, the likes of Bill Aston, Eric Brandon, Eric Winterbottom and John Green used their cars on the circuits more than the hills

[PAOLOZZI]

Ola Felix and others,
As for the extract from the Cadours 8W article. I do not remember where I took the information. I know that I did it but I do not find the document
However if you read some extracts of Doug Nye's book Cooper Cars, He confirms the use of the 1100 engine but does explain how Harry Scheel change the engine or the car. Moreover, according to Doug it seems that H.Schell took part in the Aix F3 Race with a 500 engine and to the F2 ace with a 1100 engine.
Could it be possible that Harry Schell had two cars? It seems to be the right option as on september 10th 1950 Harry was in the Mettet grid for the Sambre-et-Meuse Trophy with his Cooper. On the same sad day (Sommer died this day) Philippe was in Cadours with another Cooper. It seems to confirm that Harry did not change the engine of his Cooper in Monaco as he had two cars.
Moreover on p46 of his book Doug explains that Harry Schell was among the drivers who ordered a 1100-Cooper.
Hope it will help a bit

[GIGLEUX]

Rémi, it is evident the Schell brothers had two Coopers. About Mettet and Cadours it is what I wrote in post 11!
At Grenoble, 18/6/1950, a F3 race: n°9 Harry, n°10 Philippe.
In History of the GP car 1946-1965 Doug wrote about Schell putting a 1100 engine in his F3-500 car after the F3 race.

[Barry Boor]

Completely O.T. but, a race circuit at Grenoble? Do we know anything about this one?

[Gil Bouffard]

Don Capps and I share two things we are both career military veterans and we are/were fans of Harry Schell. He was America's first Professional International Grands Prix driverI I know that there are people who disagree because Harry and his brother Philip were born in Paris. Their mother and father were Americans and had their children registered at the American Embassy!

Over time and with an analysts eye, I have come to regard his capricious manner of arranging all sorts of things for starting money to a front row grid position at the U.S. Grand Prix at Sebring in 1959 with amusment, I find it interesting that the results for the GP of Monaco indicate Harry Schell (GB) and the car as an 1100cc Cooper T12. This from the Fangio page referenced earlier in this thread. The car was entered by the Horschell Racing Corporation (Horace-Harry's baptized name- O'Reilly Schell Racing Corporation). Harry was fond of entering "his cars," under dubious team names. He also used Ecurie Bleu and Shell Racing (like the oil company). Of course, Harry had learned at the knee of his mother Lucy O'Reilly Schell who had entered a pair of Maseratis for the 1940 Indy 500 under the L O'R Schell banner, The car at Monaco had a large U.S. Flag painted on the bonnet. I've always considered Harry as the entrant of the first rear engined car in a post war modern Grands Prix. The car was not entered by Coopers.

I own all the contemporary books about the Maestro and the later authorized biography and have read about his arriving at Tabac and finding the corner blocked by the accident. I have seen both still photos and video of the mess at Tabac and I noticed Harry's crunched Cooper amongst the carnage. I have also seen a copyrighted photo of Harry's car in the pits at Monaco.

I also have the Automobile Quarterly (Second Quarter 1975) in which Stan Grayson writes about Harry Schell- "The Man Who Raced For Fun." It is the closest thing to a biography. In the article he states that Harry had both a 500cc and 1100cc Cooper. While there a couple of bumps and skips. FYI Harry was a driver's coach on the Kirk Douglas 1954 movie "The Racers." You can see his handiJeework in the driving style adopted by Douglas in the close ups. It is the hunched up over the wheel style that the young Harry employed at that time. BTW a young Don Capps was in the hotel at Reims in 1958 when Harry's Vespa car was carried up the stairs in the hotel as a prank by a bunch of the drivers. As Don tells it, he was offered a ride down the stairs as Schell's passenger. But, his mother wouldn't let him do it!

Can you picture any of the current crop having fun like that?

Gil Bouffard
www.fastlinesinternational.com

[ReWind]

Originally posted by Gil Bouffard
Horschell Racing Corporation (Horace-Harry's baptized name- O'Reilly Schell Racing Corporation)

"Horace" is new to me. I thought his real given names were Henry Lawrence.
Horschell would be derivated from Harry O'Reilly Schell.

[Rob G]

Originally posted by Gil Bouffard
He was America's first Professional International Grands Prix driverI I know that there are people who disagree because Harry and his brother Philip were born in Paris.

I disagree with this statement, but not because of his nationality. I'd say the first American professional international Grand Prix driver was probably George Heath.

[fines]

Reinhard and Rob have already mentioned your biggest plunders, Gil - what have you been drinking???

[Doug Nye]

Plunders?

It was not a big job to swop 500cc for 1000 or 1100cc engine in these early Coopers, but I am troubled by what I am told I wrote in the 'Cooper' book. Not least because the photos of the car running F3 and 'F1' numbers at Monte Carlo both appear to show only a single exhaust, not a twin - ho hum. A big bloke like Schell with only a half-litre one-lung pushing him up the climb from Ste Devote to the Casino Square must have a considerable irritant to drivers of the true Formula 1 cars? Even a 1-litre twin would have been sloooooowww. Lap times?

DCN

[RStock]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Plunders?

A big bloke like Schell with only a half-litre one-lung pushing him up the climb from Ste Devote to the Casino Square must have a considerable irritant to drivers of the true Formula 1 cars? Even a 1-litre twin would have been sloooooowww. Lap times?

DCN

But that wouldn't have been a problem anyway would it ? As Harry went out on the first lap . He posted no time during practice , so I assume he wasn't on the track with them then either .

[RStock]

Originally posted by Gil Bouffard
Don Capps and I share two things we are both career military veterans and we are/were fans of Harry Schell. He was America's first Professional International Grands Prix driverI I know that there are people who disagree because Harry and his brother Philip were born in Paris. Their mother and father were Americans and had their children registered at the American Embassy!

Add me the Harry Schell fan club . Quite an interesting charachter . I've heard those who disagree that Schell was American . I don't think he ever lived in the US , and spoke very little if any English .

Yet , as noted , his cars often sported reminders he was American , such as the flag . And Horschell was listed as an American team , at least that day at Monaco , if I recall correctly . So , it seems to me Harry considered himself an American , and that's good enough for me . But perhaps someone knows more about Harry's opinion on the subject .

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
...I am troubled by what I am told I wrote in the 'Cooper' book. Not least because the photos of the car running F3 and 'F1' numbers at Monte Carlo both appear to show only a single exhaust, not a twin - ho hum.

This is somehow funny and based upon it I owe an apology to my friend Angel Desdentado. We were commenting this affair yesterday over the phone and he made exactly the same remark : "why are you so damn sure that the Cooper with number 8 has a different engine than the Cooper with number 6"?

In a very unscientific manner I told him not to push the things too far, but obviously Doug´s remarks make me think twice.

Is it really feasible that no change of engine would have taken place?

BTW, Gil, thanks for the notes on Schell. What a shame we do not have a biography of him. I will of couse mention the mistake in the nationality of the entry in the Fangio´s site to Vicente Sillitti, that I am sure will correct it on the spot.

[Gil Bouffard]

Sorry folks, but I just woke up.

Harry was the first American racing driver to support himself from auto racing. Indeed Harry came to America with Luigi Chinetti, Rene Dreyfus and Rene LeBegue for the 1940 Indy 500. According to the Stan Grayson article Harry worked at Grumman Aircraft on Long Island. He also served in the U.S. Army during WWII. Makes him an American in my book.

Back in the last century I was acquainted with a guy who was a Sergeant in the Army who was born to a French mother and an American father. He spoke French, Spanish and German and could give Gordon Ramsey a run for his money when it came to speaking English. He also couldn't put a sentence down on a piece of paper. He learned his English after he joined the Army. I was stationed in Heidelberg and retired over there. I came home because my father had Lou Gehrig's Disease. I knew many multi-national-multi-lingual Americans. Similarly, I read and speak German, My writing is slow because I have difficulty with German syntax.

If you visit my website (Below) and click on the More Stuff button-scroll down to the Schurzenjager link and click on the Uber Mich button you'll learn more than you ever wanted to know about Herr Bouffard. BTW I write for a bilingual magazine called German World. Most stories are side by side English and German. They provide an ubersetzer to cover my mistakes.

And all this time you thought I was just another GOOFY face!

Gil Bouffard
www.fastlinesinternational.com

[Adam F]

Originally posted by Doug Nye

It was not a big job to swop 500cc for 1000 or 1100cc engine in these early Coopers, but I am troubled by what I am told I wrote in the 'Cooper' book. Not least because the photos of the car running F3 and 'F1' numbers at Monte Carlo both appear to show only a single exhaust, not a twin - ho hum.
DCN

In this photo of Schell's car taken from the rear after the first lap accident I think I can see a second exhaust emerging from the upper "hole" at the rear of the bodywork - or am I just imagining things?


.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by REDARMYSOJA


But that wouldn't have been a problem anyway would it ? As Harry went out on the first lap . He posted no time during practice , so I assume he wasn't on the track with them then either .

According to the 4 volume Monaco GP history, he was too busy trying to qualify for the 500cc race to bother for the Grand Prix. I suppose the formulae's practice sessions were pretty close in time?

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Adam F

In this photo of Schell's car taken from the rear after the first lap accident I think I can see a second exhaust emerging from the upper "hole" at the rear of the bodywork - or am I just imagining things?

Never seen this one before, thanks a lot Adam for the evidence.

And if you are "imagining" things, you are not alone, my friend Seriously, that looks like the second exhaust that couldn´t be seen from any other angle!

[D-Type]

A few lap times:

Fangio, Alfa Romeo (pole), 1:50.2

last 3 on the grid ahead of Schell
Gerard, ERA, 2:03.4
Rol, Maserati, 2:04.5
Claes, Lago-Talbot, 2:12.0

Moss, F3 Cooper-JAP, practice 2:06.4 and race 2:05.8
So Schell in a 500 would have put up similar times and in the 1000 with twice the power ... ?


Edit: I should have said the times come from David Hodges' book

Edited by D-Type, 07 April 2016 - 21:02.

[Doug Nye]

AFAIK Stirl's 'two-way Cooper' could indeed have its engine swopped from 500 to 1000 very quickly indeed - to enable entry in alternative races on the same day. "Think of the earning opportunities Boy". There was useful extra length in the LWB 'two-way' frames for the twin-cylinder engine to make such changes a) possible, b) quicker and c) easier. In this capability his car was not unique.

DCN

[HiRich]

Adam F's latest photo seems to confirm that Harry started the race with a Twin, albeit one with the second pipe running inside the engine cover. Studying all the Monaco photos I have, I cannot spot any differences between the 500 and 1100 cars - only the AAA logo on the nose which may not be on the 500 but is more likely flared out by a reflection.

I'm also intrigued by Felix's earlier photo (post 26) of Car 8 at speed - we are to believe Harry only completed a lap and a half, yet someone got a clear, solo racing shot whilst ignoring all the more interesting cars ahead?

Putting all that together, my intuition is:
- Harry brought just the one (stretched) chassis.
- He did swap the engines for the race
- I'm wondering whether he may have run in general practice for the Grand Prix, but failed to make qualifying.
The big clue will be the event timetable, if anyone has it. Austen May says the the Grand Prix cars appeared between the Formula III heats and Final (although he's not specific whether this was the race or practice). I would suggest a pro mechanic would want an hour to swap (and check) engines & sprockets, might just do it in 30 minutes, and I note there's a photo of a relaxed Harry in pitlane with the 1100 version complete (presumably waiting for race start). That suggests to me the transplant was completed comfortably.

On performance, D-Type has the figures (post 45), which I believe were in comparable conditions. The qualifying times I have are a bit odd, with slower cars further up the grid. I reckon the extra grunt would be worth about 5 seconds, taking him to about two minutes dead and 11th fastest of nineteen, which would have been rather interesting. May also notes that the 500 Coopers were able to take the harbour chicane flat.

[Vitesse2]

Re qualifying times: the first two rows were determined by practice times in the first session only, while the lower places were from times established in both sessions. This was apparently to encourage teams to arrive early.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by HiRich
I'm also intrigued by Felix's earlier photo (post 26) of Car 8 at speed - we are to believe Harry only completed a lap and a half, yet someone got a clear, solo racing shot whilst ignoring all the more interesting cars ahead?

What could be more interesting than a rear-engined Grand Prix car?

But is that number 8 for certain? The flash might have blurred the gap in a number 6...

[AngelDesdentado]

Hello. Sorry, but I do not speak English

Originally writing by Allen Brown

R Harry Schell (F?) 1.1-litre Cooper 500 Mk IV 'T12' - JAP twin
#8 Horschell Racing Corporation 0 accident

Originally writing by François Jolly

Construite en une douzaine d'exemplaires dès 1948, la petite monoplace Cooper 500cc remporte dés la première année un assez grand nombre de victories obtenues par John Cooper, par Eric Brandon et par un jeune pilote de 19 ans à peine, un certain... Stirling Moss. Par la suite, les monoplaces Cooper 500cc vont connaître une renommée croissante: elles seront construites en nombre important et exportées un peu partout, dominant nettement les épreuves sur circuit organisées sur le territoire britanique. Notons, en outre, qu'elles seront prévues pour recevoir le moteur JAP bicylindre de 1100cc, ce qui leur permettra alors de courir en Formule 2.

L'épopée française des "Racers 500"

Por otra parte, parece evidente que Schell sólo disponía de un monoplaza, al que sustituyó el motor tras la final de la Fórmula 3. El jueves se dedicó a clasificarse para la prueba de F3, y el sábado, los entrenamientos de la Fórmula 1 se disputaron entre las dos series y la final de la Fórmula 3. Esto le impidió marcar un tiempo en los entrenamientos para el Gran Premio de Fórmula 1:
Translated by Google:
On the other hand, it seems clear that Schell had only a single seater, which replaced the engine following the end of Formula 3. On Thursday, was devoted to classified evidence for the F3, and Saturday, the training of Formula 1 is disputed between the two series and the end of Formula 3. This prevented him from dialing a time in training for the Grand Prix Formula 1:

Originally writing by Christian Moity

Manquent à l'appel:... et la Cooper JAP de Harry, très occupé á obtenir sa qualification dans l'épreuve F3.

Grand Prix Automobile de Monaco - Tome 1 1929-1955

Unas fotos:


Grand Prix Automobile de Monaco - Tome 1 1929-1955 - Christian Moity
Los Cooper nº 6 (Schell) y nº 20 (Brandon) parece que tienen el capot motor más alto que el nº 22 (Moss). ¿Es posible que los dos primeros sean T12 (chasis largo) preparados para acoger el JAP 1.100 y el tercero un T11 (chasis corto)?
Translated by Google:
The Cooper 6 (Schell) and No. 20 (Brandon) seems to have the engine hood higher than No. 22 (Moss). Is it possible that the first two are T12 (chassis length) prepared to host the 1100 JAP and the third a T11 (chassis short)?



Foto a los ganadores de la Fórmula 3. ¿Qué hacen en el Cooper de Schell?
Translated by Google:
Picture the winners of Formula 3. What to do in the Cooper Schell?



Grand Prix Automobile de Monaco - Tome 1 1929-1955 - Christian Moity
Moss y su Cooper.


Un saludo.