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#1 Barry Boor

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 23:01

John Brown lasted 1 lap at the 1959 Oulton Park Gold Cup driving a car called an AFM-BRM, having qualified last, a mere 30 SECONDS behind the next slowest car...

I assume this was not one of the East German cars fitted with a 4 cylinder BRM engine, or was it?

Is there anything known about this?

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#2 Roger Clark

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 23:10

Originally posted by Barry Boor
John Brown lasted 1 lap at the 1959 Oulton Park Gold Cup driving a car called an AFM-BRM, having qualified last, a mere 30 SECONDS behind the next slowest car...

I assume this was not one of the East German cars fitted with a 4 cylinder BRM engine, or was it?

Is there anything known about this?

BMW rather than BRM? Are you sure he lasted a lap? I thought he didn't start.

#3 r.atlos

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 23:15

AFM were the cars built by Alex von Falkenhausen of Munich, not to be confused with East-German "Rennkollektiv" cars which at some point in their career raced under the AWE or EMW banner.

And yes, I too think it is a typo and should read "BMW". John Brown does ring a bell with me; uechtel or Hugo should know more.

#4 David McKinney

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 07:20

John Brown raced an AFM in British events from 1957 to 1960
AFAIK it never had anything but a BMW engine

#5 Graham Gauld

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 09:29

Knowing how TNF readers like pictures that are different or unique this is the pre-war Mercedes Benz driver Manfred von Brauchitsch with an AFM BMW .Copyright photo.

Posted Image

#6 Stephen W

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 09:34

Originally posted by Barry Boor
John Brown lasted 1 lap at the 1959 Oulton Park Gold Cup driving a car called an AFM-BRM, having qualified last, a mere 30 SECONDS behind the next slowest car...

I assume this was not one of the East German cars fitted with a 4 cylinder BRM engine, or was it?

Is there anything known about this?


In the programme it was entered as a BMW with no mention of AFM. It was not listed as a none starter as the programme was amended in period with the changes etc given over the Tannoy. We were spectating at Lodge Corner and the car didn't pass us on Lap 2 as it doesn't show up on my Dad's lap chart.

:wave:

#7 Roger Clark

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 10:08

utosport said that the car was a non-starter and it doesn't appear on their starting grid. However, Motor Sport contains a picture of Moss passing the stricken BMW. It's in a ditch and facing the wrong way!

#8 Barry Boor

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 10:54

Thank you all; another mystery explained.

But who was John Brown, where did he go and what else did he do?

No clever comments about 'mouldering', please!

#9 David McKinney

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 10:55

There was a John Brown who raced an HWM before that, but he was of northerly antecedents and possibly not the same chep
GG might know

#10 Graham Gauld

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 11:25

Thanks David

You can forget about the Scottish John Brown he owned Eastern Motor Company and raced a Riley single seater before buying the HWM which was one of the original team of three cars with cycle wings that could run as formula cars with the wings off. He bought it through his pal Reg Parnell and only had it for a season.

GG

#11 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 11:34

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Thank you all; another mystery explained.

But who was John Brown, where did he go and what else did he do?

No clever comments about 'mouldering', please!


There was a John Brown who did 500cc Formula 3 in the fifties. A motor dealer from Bromley in Kent. He did quite well at Brands Hatch driving an Arnott. I believe that he also drove a Ray Martin Special in 1953.

#12 Adam F

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 12:35

Perhaps our esteemed Moderator could now correct the thread title...................

#13 Stephen W

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 13:50

Originally posted by Stephen W


In the programme it was entered as a BMW with no mention of AFM. It was not listed as a none starter as the programme was amended in period with the changes etc given over the Tannoy. We were spectating at Lodge Corner and the car didn't pass us on Lap 2 as it doesn't show up on my Dad's lap chart.

:wave:


No details in the programme of where John Brown hailed from, neither in the write-up nor the entry list.

:wave:

#14 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 14:11

The car was formerly raced by Willi Heeks. It was sold about 1955/56 to Brown. I think he first raced it at the Vaals Hilclimb in 1956. In 61 the car was sold to HWM Begley and 67 to Hutchins. In the 1980s the car came back to Germany.

#15 David McKinney

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 15:24

N H W Begley, I think. He and his brother raced the car
It was in a Coys auction about 15 years ago - don't know if it sold though, or if it remained (remains) in Germany

#16 RStock

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 16:54

Racing database has info on him . It doesn't allow a direct link to his stats , but you can navigate to them .

Under "Formulae Old" at the top of the main page , click on "Non-championship Races" .

Under "Non-championship race results" click on 1959 .

Then click on "VI International Gold Cup" .

You'll see John Brown's name , click on it .

Then click "starts" .

It gives his starts in Formula Junior (quite a few) , a couple in F-2 , and several WSP starts , including Le Mans .

It shows a win for him at the 1960 John Davy Trophy , Rd. 7 at Brands Hatch in Formula Jr. competition driving a Private Entry Lotus 18 Ford .

Can't vouch for the accuracy of the site , but perhaps it will jog someones memory if nothing else .

http://www.racing-da...e.com/index.htm

#17 David McKinney

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 17:38

I suspect they might be combining more than one John Brown :)

#18 Doug Nye

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 17:54

I believe he is still around, oop north...? I am confident that the AFM-BMW notion is correct, AFM-BRM not so.

DCN

#19 RStock

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 19:20

Originally posted by David McKinney
I suspect they might be combining more than one John Brown :)


I'm guessing at least that 1923 start at Brooklands .

Seems odd with that many FJ starts and even a win , no one remembers him . :confused:

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#20 Barry Boor

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 21:06

The thread title was taken from Darren Galpin's race details. I was looking for something else (as usual) and spotted that entry at that race.

I confess it never occurred to me that it should read BMW not BRM; brain fade again, I guess. :(

#21 elansprint72

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 21:56

So if he is still Up North and not mouldering, presumably it was a different John Brown who they "scraped off the tarmac like a lump of strawberry jam"?


I'll get me coat............. ;)

#22 uechtel

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 21:07

As I am a little late into this thread at the moment I can only add the link to our previous discussion in this thread

#23 uechtel

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 21:11

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
Knowing how TNF readers like pictures that are different or unique this is the pre-war Mercedes Benz driver Manfred von Brauchitsch with an AFM BMW .Copyright photo.

Posted Image


Oh, and of course this was taken at the Nürburgring in 1950 (German GP). Nice picture and thanks for showing!

#24 birdgirlscanfly

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 13:20

Sorry about coming to this topic a bit late but I'm a newbie :wave:
Unfortunately Barry, I haven't a clue who John Brown was but I did know the car in the early/mid 60s. The car appeared to have been further developed by von Falkenhausen after his return to BMW.
When I knew the car it was owned by the Begley brothers, Harvey and Phillip, who lived in Marple. This picture shows Harvey Begley racing the car at Oulton Park in the early 60s:-

Posted Image

As the picture shows, the car had been BMWised and was badged and entered as a BMW. As I remember the car was a bluey/green colour and was well turned out if not particularly quick. At one stage in the mid 60s, I remember seeing the car in Jack Broadhead's workshop in Bollington where it was having a substantial rebuild after a major accident in the hands of a guest driver.

In the late 60s, the Begleys sold the car to help finance the rebuilding of the Ivo Peters Frazer Nash that they had acquired. It was bought by Tony Hutchins who decided to revert the car to something nearer its original specification. I was with Harvey Begley when we saw the car having its first outing in its revised form at a VSCC Oulton Park meeting.
Tony Hutchins had fitted a replacement Bristol engine that he had lying about and had painted the car silver. I was a little disappointed to see that the paint finish was quite dreadful and I can only assume that he had used an old emulsioning brush!
I was further alarmed when Tony pointed out that the new engine/gearbox setup meant that the gear lever was now positioned in between the drivers legs. I can think of a number of drawbacks to this arrangement.

Sadly, I never saw the car again but I hope that it survives and is receiving the care it deserves.
:)



#25 Alexander M

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 14:43

Amazing picture and very interesting story, thank you for sharing them!

#26 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 16:25

Thanks 'birdgirlscanfly'. I wonder where that car is today.

#27 ERault

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 16:46

Thanks 'birdgirlscanfly'. I wonder where that car is today.


One AFM was racing at Angouleme this year.

#28 Sharman

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 20:03

The John Brown subject of this thread was an RAF F/Lt living in married quarters in Wilmslow at the time of the Oulton entry. He was flyimg Sabres into Airwork at Rinway where they carried out refurbishment. He never did get the car running properly, his explanation to me was that the engine was available as a !.5 or a 2 litre and he had confused the cylinderr heads.

#29 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 21:06

The John Brown subject of this thread was an RAF F/Lt living in married quarters in Wilmslow at the time of the Oulton entry. He was flyimg Sabres into Airwork at Rinway where they carried out refurbishment. He never did get the car running properly, his explanation to me was that the engine was available as a !.5 or a 2 litre and he had confused the cylinderr heads.

Fascinating! Was he running it as a 1.5 or a 2.0 at the Gold Cup?

And was this John Brown the same guy who raced an AFM in VSCC? If so, obviously not the motor trader from Bromley.

#30 Sharman

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 07:26

Allen
It was as a 1.5 at Oulton, I can't add more info as I moved away from Wilmslow. I do recall his description of his first flight in a Sabre "I pointed it down the runway opened the taps and after I eased back the stick I found myself at 20000 feet going half a crown and sixpence"
John

#31 uechtel

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 11:51

This picture shows Harvey Begley racing the car at Oulton Park in the early 60s:


Thank you very much for that wonderful picture, you made my day!


#32 uechtel

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 14:03

Sadly, I never saw the car again but I hope that it survives and is receiving the care it deserves.
:)

There was a report in German magazine 'Motor Klassik' 9/1986 about a restored AFM, which I think is this car. It says it is the car originally owned by Willi Heeks, who put it aside for a Veritas Meteor in 1954 (in fact it was 1953). The car was sold in 1955 to 'a British soldier, who took it with him and used it in club events'. Then it was a first time restored in britain in the seventies, before it came back to Germany in 1980. 'Today' (that is 1986) it was owned by vintage car dealer Jürgen Sinkel at Düsseldorf.

Also from the other thread we know it was owned and race by Tony Hutchings in the late sixties.

Besides that I know of the existance of three further AFM cars, the ex-Rieß that survived in monoposto-shape until today, the open-wheel spors car of 1949 and the car that was converted into a 'Barchetta' for Bechem (the latter today seemingly existing even two times... ). Any idea which of them did start at Angouleme?






#33 ERault

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 16:25

Besides that I know of the existance of three further AFM cars, the ex-Rieß that survived in monoposto-shape until today, the open-wheel spors car of 1949 and the car that was converted into a 'Barchetta' for Bechem (the latter today seemingly existing even two times... ). Any idea which of them did start at Angouleme?


Now sober, I realize my AFM was in fact... a Veritas. Very sorry about that. If still interested, the car can be seen here :

http://www.lespotes....72-1285-29.html



#34 Sharman

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 17:38

The car was sold in 1955 to 'a British soldier, who took it with him and used it in club events'.

Bearing in mind my earlier post, could this have been a British AIRMAN?

#35 uechtel

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 18:25

Bearing in mind my earlier post, could this have been a British AIRMAN?


To my understanding the word "soldier" includes all kind of "military persons", no matter whether on ground, water or in air or wherever else...?

And a nice Veritas picture anyway.


#36 David McKinney

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 18:38

No, a soldier is in the army, ie on land

#37 uechtel

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 18:39

No, a soldier is in the army, ie on land

Ok, so then a different use as of the German word "Soldat".


#38 David McKinney

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 18:44

It appears so

Americans talk about someone being "in the military" and that seems to be spreading here too, to cover land, air and sea personnel

#39 Allen Brown

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 22:44

So Markus, can we safely conclude that the John Brown car is the one you identified in your histories as "AFM 50-8"?

Edited by Allen Brown, 20 October 2010 - 22:45.


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#40 uechtel

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 07:21

Yes, I am very convinced it is that car, but can you ever be safe in this business?



#41 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 08:46

The John Brown subject of this thread was an RAF F/Lt living in married quarters in Wilmslow at the time of the Oulton entry. He was flyimg Sabres into Airwork at Rinway where they carried out refurbishment. He never did get the car running properly, his explanation to me was that the engine was available as a !.5 or a 2 litre and he had confused the cylinderr heads.


Then "HWM/Scottish John Brown" is most definitely a different person. He looks middle aged in the photos I have from the early 50s and raced his HWM wearing glasses - which would, I assume, have ruled him out of piloting a jet fighter even if he wasn't as old as he looks!





#42 Allen Brown

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 09:08

Might the VSCC have any records of him? If he raced the AFM in their events, wouldn't he have been a member?

#43 David McKinney

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 11:58

Assuming he's the John Brown who later raced a single-seater Ferrari, in November 1967 he was an Austin dealer in Burnley, with showroom at 179a Colne Road and garage in Talbot Street

#44 Sharman

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 13:49

Assuming he's the John Brown who later raced a single-seater Ferrari, in November 1967 he was an Austin dealer in Burnley, with showroom at 179a Colne Road and garage in Talbot Street


Bowler hatted? Gratuity?

#45 Bauble

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 18:35

Ancient memory banks working up steam, but I 'think' a John Brown used to race an ERA in VSCC events in the 60's. Possibly R8C

#46 David McKinney

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 21:06

That'll be Bertie Brown, Baub :)