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Maserati 250F Cameron Millar Cars


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#1 etceterini.com

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 04:45

My Father bought/commisioned the first CM 250F #1 Maserati car. They were
made from original spare frames and engines by Cameron Millar. I have not listed
the car on our Maserati page. I've been told there are three of them, each
with FIA papers. What do you guys think of these cars? Here is a photo
of the car we used to own:

Posted Image

cliff reuter

You can see more pics here:

http://www.cliffreuter.com/others.htm

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#2 David McKinney

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 07:41

There are actually twelve CM 250Fs.
Millar started when, having acquired all the Centro-Sud parts in 1967, he had new frames built for what he presumed were the Italian team’s two cars, 2511 and 2522, and numbered them accordingly. It was only years later that the fates of those Centro-Sud cars was established, meaning the CM cars were really replicas, albeit with pretty much 100% genuine mechanicals.
After those cars were completed he was approached by others wanting replicas and, yes, your father was the first (with Fred Leydorf?). CM1 and CM2 were completed 1970-76.
As demand for 250Fs increased in line with the growth of historic racing in Europe, and the CM replicas were regarded sufficiently close to the originals to be accepted by some organisers, another sx cars - CM3 to CM8 - were built between 1979 and 1983.
The last two, CM9 and CM10, were completed in the 1990s.
Five of the CM cars were to early (1954/56) spec, four were 1957 lightweight models and three 1958 Piccolo replicas. The percentage of original parts that went into the cars decreased over the years.
In discussions on the merits or otherwise of replicas, the CM 250Fs are invariably cited as examples of near-perfect copies of the originals

#3 Red Socks

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 07:43

Eight or nine-they have been accepted for years by the FIA for Historic racing to the extent that the late Gunnar Elmgren when president of the FIA Historic Motor Sport Commission raced one. I havbe a feeling that there is one kit of parts in Scotland which has never been put together.

#4 Allan Lupton

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 08:59

I don't recall Cameron supplying kits.
I do recall him complaining at the time the last CM 250F was being constructed that his engine builder had put the price up by £10,000. Might have been inflation, but could well reflect on the increasing proportion of manufacturing to assembling.
Somewhere I have a photo I took when we gathered at Brooklands for a surprise celebration of Cameron's 80th birthday: there was a collection of CM 250Fs that was probably the most ever to be seen together.

#5 Stephen W

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 09:26

Originally posted by David McKinney
There are actually twelve CM 250Fs.
Millar started when, having acquired all the Centro-Sud parts in 1967, he had new frames built for what he presumed were the Italian team’s two cars, 2511 and 2522, and numbered them accordingly. It was only years later that the fates of those Centro-Sud cars was established, meaning the CM cars were really replicas, albeit with pretty much 100% genuine mechanicals.
After those cars were completed he was approached by others wanting replicas and, yes, your father was the first (with Fred Leydorf?). CM1 and CM2 were completed 1970-76.
As demand for 250Fs increased in line with the growth of historic racing in Europe, and the CM replicas were regarded sufficiently close to the originals to be accepted by some organisers, another sx cars - CM3 to CM8 - were built between 1979 and 1983.
The last two, CM9 and CM10, were completed in the 1990s.
Five of the CM cars were to early (1954/56) spec, four were 1957 lightweight models and three 1958 Piccolo replicas. The percentage of original parts that went into the cars decreased over the years.
In discussions on the merits or otherwise of replicas, the CM 250Fs are invariably cited as examples of near-perfect copies of the originals


I don't have a problem with these cars just so long as someone doesn't try to pass one off as an original 250F. By using the CM prefix then a quick check of the chassis plate tells the full story but for those people who have never seen a real 250F they are the next best thing!

:wave:

#6 David McKinney

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 10:49

Stephen -
I'm afraid one or two recent owners have been adamant their cars weren't CM replicas :rolleyes:

Socks
The Scottish car has been completed, but has never raced

Allan
Yes, a lot of the cars were supplied to owners in kit form

#7 etceterini.com

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 15:22

Was the engine the only original thing on the car, or was the frame also period original?

#8 David McKinney

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 15:30

The frames of all CM cars were new
As I said, the earliest examples would have had almost entirely Maserati internals, with a decreasing percentage as time went by (and CM numbers increased)

#9 Doug Nye

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 18:18

Dave - weren't the frames (or at least the early CM ones) built for Cameron by specialist Arthur Archer?

DCN

#10 David McKinney

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 18:35

I was hoping no-one would ask that
I think you're right, but the name Frank Coltman's also floating around my brain

#11 RA Historian

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 20:34

My animosity towards replicas has been expressed many times on this forum. But, I do wish to point out that these cars apparently carry chassis plates which clearly state what they are. As such, I can coexist with them. There was one at Road America a couple years ago and a quick peek at the plate showed what it was. I was then able to enjoy watching it for what it is, not what some twit purports it to be.
Tom

#12 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 21:07

As one who has never, to my recollection, seen or heard a 250F driven in anger, I have no problems whatever with 'twits' who own these cars... if it is identical to a factory car, or a car as-modified in the period, I will love it and those who've laboured or spent money to make it happen...

My mind changes on that when they falsely represent it for sale purposes, of course.

#13 elansprint72

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 21:14

I recall DSJ warning us what would happen re these "replicars", as he called them. :

#14 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 21:34

In his famous story of the rebuild of the Bugatti?

The bloke in the pub who took care of the discarded bits etc?

To my way of thinking, the only problem is with misrepresentation.

#15 elansprint72

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 21:50

Ray,
He went on about what would happen in the future (i.e.now) when folks removed the "Replicar" chassis plates and tried to sell them (the cars) on as kosher originals. I seem to think he returned to the theme quite a few times.

I'm in two minds about what is now known as "continuation" cars; having seen the Pur Sang Bugattis, the new T70s and Chevrons, they are absolute copies (as a time-served Toolmaker I shun the expression "tool-room copies ;) ), and they are fabulous things in their own right but should they really be allowed to compete on a level playing field with the old bangers? If I owned a 2 million quid original and had to race against some yahoo in an 80-grand copy, I'd most likely give way if he pressed the point in t corner.

Anyway, short of a major lottery win, this is not a problem which will be taxing me in the near future. :rotfl:

#16 Nordic

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 08:54

I have often wondered what was going on with the roof mounted shell on the Landrover.

Could it be a CM250F being collected?

Roof mounted 250F

#17 h4887

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 10:47

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Dave - weren't the frames (or at least the early CM ones) built for Cameron by specialist Arthur Archer?

DCN


I remember seeing one leaning against the wall in Arthur's workshop

#18 David McKinney

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 13:59

Originally posted by Nordic
I have often wondered what was going on with the roof mounted shell on the Landrover

I think it was a one-off someone was trying to sell on its own. Whether or not it subsequently ended up on one of the last CM cars I don't know

#19 Tmeranda

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 18:20

Originally posted by RA Historian
My animosity towards replicas has been expressed many times on this forum. But, I do wish to point out that these cars apparently carry chassis plates which clearly state what they are. As such, I can coexist with them. There was one at Road America a couple years ago and a quick peek at the plate showed what it was. I was then able to enjoy watching it for what it is, not what some twit purports it to be.
Tom


I saw it at RA and even though it wasn't the real thing, it was thrilling to see it on the track. The owner was extremely nice in putting up with my questions and very forward about the fact that it was a CM. If this is going to be my only chance to see a 250F on the track or a GT Mk V or even a 2E then I am in favor.

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#20 Dutchy

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 13:29

Originally posted by David McKinney

I think it was a one-off someone was trying to sell on its own. Whether or not it subsequently ended up on one of the last CM cars I don't know


I recall seeing that roof mounted body at pretty well every vintage and historic meeting I attended over a long period - must have been a couple of years at least. I have a vague feeling that it had something to do with a firm called Vintage and Classic Autos and that it had a connection with Aubrey Finburgh.

#21 etceterini.com

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 02:49

Here is one last picture I just found, a very fun car to have owned!

Posted Image

#22 Ted Walker

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 07:56

The "roof mounted" body was I think built byAubrey Findburghs company in Kings Langley (Jaguar specialist)

#23 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 13:09

David McKinney is right, according to Cameron Millar, Frank Coltman did the frames.
To complete the story we can add that Grand Prix Metalcraft did all the the bodies.

Cyril Embury built the engines.
CM1 to CM7 has original engines.
CM8 engine has a new block.
CM9 and CM10 new engines.


#24 D-Type

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 19:04

The next question is "How many of 2501 to 2534 currently have a 'new block' or a 'new engine'?"
And after that we move on to replacement frames, new gearboxes etc.

Edited by D-Type, 14 May 2009 - 10:38.


#25 Wilyman

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 02:17

Here is one last picture I just found, a very fun car to have owned!

Posted Image



etceterini,
A "fun car" indeed..
I photographed a 250 F at Cadwell Park in 1983. Don't know or care if it was an original.

With all those rivets on the tail it had to be the most erotic, [that's right, erotic] racing car I've ever seen !

#26 etceterini.com

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 03:29

Here are 4 more pics I just scanned from negatives:

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Posted Image

-cliff

#27 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 08:23

CM 9 last weekend at the Eifelrennen / Nürburgring. It obviously lives in Germany now.

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Highlight of the weekend was following the car for three (reasonably quick - we had to drive behind a safety car) laps around the Ring in my Bentley. What a sight and sound. Never mind, that is was "only" CM9...

Ralf