Around 30/35 yrs ago I thought I had read about a proposal for a cheap open-wheeler category based around the 3-litre Zephyr/Zodiac/Capri V6. Not the Cologne Capri V6 obviously.
Did I dream this? If pressed I would say I read it in an article on Syd Fox.
While I am on this subject, what sort of horsepower would a V6 Ford, as used in the British Touring Car Championship circa 1977-82 have produced?
FF3000 - did I dream it?
Started by
Vicuna
, Jan 10 2009 23:50
19 replies to this topic
#3
MCS
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Posted 11 January 2009 - 20:24
I've thought about this and really don't recall anything. In fairness, at one time, new formulae were being created at fairly regular intervals as we all know, so it's hardly beyond the realms of possibility.
And let's face it, compared to a certain other dream currently being discussed......
And let's face it, compared to a certain other dream currently being discussed......
#4
D-Type
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Posted 11 January 2009 - 20:28
Didn't some cars in British F5000 use a Dagenham or Cologne Ford V6?
#5
MCS
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Posted 11 January 2009 - 20:44
Yes. In F5000 we had Walkinshaw/Modus, Jones/ RAM March, Walkinshaw/March and then we had Group 8...
#6
AJB
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Posted 11 January 2009 - 20:44
Yes, in later years the rules were amended and the Cologne V6 based Cosworth GA DOHC V6 was used by some teams.
#7
MCS
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Posted 11 January 2009 - 21:48
Originally posted by MCS
Yes. In F5000 we had Walkinshaw/Modus, Jones/ RAM March, Walkinshaw/March and then we had Group 8...
Uh-oh. How did I forget Purley/Chevron?
Have to say that I loved the snarl of the Ford engines - a fantastic counterpoint to the truly wonderful bellow of the Chevrolet V8s in the back of the traditional F5000 cars.
I especially remember Jones - in particular - accelerating away from the hairpin at Mallory Park. I also seem to recall that the three cars of Jones, Walkinshaw and Purley all sounded slightly different, the Walkinshaw March sounding very raspy. (I've a horrible feeling I've said this before - in which case apologies).
#8
Simon Arron
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Posted 11 January 2009 - 22:05
If memory serves, wasn't the 1980 Spanish Grand Prix sometimes described as the first FF3000 race?
#9
ghinzani
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Posted 11 January 2009 - 22:09
Originally posted by MCS
I especially remember Jones - in particular - accelerating away from the hairpin at Mallory Park. I also seem to recall that the three cars of Jones, Walkinshaw and Purley all sounded slightly different, the Walkinshaw March sounding very raspy. (I've a horrible feeling I've said this before - in which case apologies).
I believe Walkinshaws was out of a Cologne Capri from Germany if memory serves me right..
#10
RS2000
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Posted 11 January 2009 - 22:23
On the question in the first post, the ordinary Essex V6 was never that powerful (GA a very different thing). I think the "Group One and a half" saloon regs eventually allowed the triple carb manifold but even then I'm not sure it was completely out of sight beyond 200bhp.
#11
Frank de Jong
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Posted 12 January 2009 - 08:11
Around 1978 the V6 had about 220 HP.
#12
Allan Lupton
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Posted 12 January 2009 - 09:53
Surely FF3000 was DSJ's put-down of the DFV-powered kit-car era of F1 
#13
RS2000
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Posted 12 January 2009 - 11:52
But not with the single carb that was originally required in the BSCC/BTCC.Originally posted by Frank de Jong
Around 1978 the V6 had about 220 HP.
#14
SydFox1
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Posted 16 February 2011 - 16:48
I,ve just read your article about a single seater formula useing the V6 Ford engine.You are correct,I thought that engine would beAround 30/35 yrs ago I thought I had read about a proposal for a cheap open-wheeler category based around the 3-litre Zephyr/Zodiac/Capri V6. Not the Cologne Capri V6 obviously.
Did I dream this? If pressed I would say I read it in an article on Syd Fox.
While I am on this subject, what sort of horsepower would a V6 Ford, as used in the British Touring Car Championship circa 1977-82 have produced?
far better than the Ford Pinto which was taller and heavier (which gave it a bad CofG).It was my opinion that the V6 could allow minimal
tuning with better power and called FF3000.I dont remember making this public.
Syd Fox.
#15
Vicuna
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Posted 17 February 2011 - 07:16
I,ve just read your article about a single seater formula useing the V6 Ford engine.You are correct,I thought that engine would be
far better than the Ford Pinto which was taller and heavier (which gave it a bad CofG).It was my opinion that the V6 could allow minimal
tuning with better power and called FF3000.I dont remember making this public.
Syd Fox.
Wow! Welcome Mr Fox.
Well if I did read it, it was either in Motoring News or Autosport - probably the former. Can anyone find an article on Syd from about that time that makes reference to something I thought I'd read, but which he doesn't recall making public!?
Syd, did you imagine a 'wings and slicks' option like FF2000 or an overgrown FF1600 with grooved tyres but no wings? Or some other option?
#16
Glengavel
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Posted 17 February 2011 - 07:53
Surely FF3000 was DSJ's put-down of the DFV-powered kit-car era of F1
I thought DSJ was quite scrupulous about incorrect use of the F-word?;)
#17
SydFox1
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Posted 17 February 2011 - 12:06
Hi Vicuna,Wow! Welcome Mr Fox.
Well if I did read it, it was either in Motoring News or Autosport - probably the former. Can anyone find an article on Syd from about that time that makes reference to something I thought I'd read, but which he doesn't recall making public!?
Syd, did you imagine a 'wings and slicks' option like FF2000 or an overgrown FF1600 with grooved tyres but no wings? Or some other option?
I was at the meeting when the uprated F.Ford design was discussed,John Web wanted a monocoque body design,(interested to read a comment below your writings about monocoques)
I argued heavily against this because of the huge increase in cost,also by retaining the spaceframe one could convert from F.Ford.That was accepted,at the same time I wanted to use
the V6 engine,and of course slicks.The reason for this was that it would make the new formula fairly close to F3 at a fraction of the cost. The Pinto engine was chosen ,I think Ford were
wrong.I tested the slicks and rain tyres and we came up with a compound which allthough slightly harder would give stablle lap times down to near canvas and for a reasonable cost.
This was unlike the tyres which were used laterwhich were expensive and dropped a second a lap when there was still meat on the tyre.
Apologies for carrying on,I hope it may clear one or two points.
Syd Fox.
#18
thomaskomm
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Posted 17 February 2011 - 16:30
HI all! In the Cosworth book the Essex v6 Capri engine had 430 hp with 3 ltrs. But not the cologne v6
Thomas
Thomas
#19
Vicuna
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Posted 17 February 2011 - 17:44
Apologies for carrying on,I hope it may clear one or two points.
Syd Fox.
When legends join TNF, there is no need to ever apologise!
I guess if you were proposing slicks then a wing was also in mind.
About 180-200bhp?
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#20
SydFox1
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Posted 18 February 2011 - 12:25
Yes,wings were certainly a must and Ron Dennis allowed me to design a slimmed down verson of his F2 wing (Icalled it Concord because it was slimmer than others),When legends join TNF, there is no need to ever apologise!
I guess if you were proposing slicks then a wing was also in mind.
About 180-200bhp?
This we used on TON a 4yr old Palliser,and it gave us good frontline speed as well as good downforce.By the way ,I liked to initially set a car up without wings and
do the final setup with wings.With the V6 I thought with fairly light tuning to regulations should give around 175bhp.
Syd.
