92 replies to this topic

[Wilyman]

That is a good shot Rod ,but i cant place the corner.where was it?

Ken,
As Rod is not out of bed yet allow me to venture a reply.
KLG corner at the beginning of the main straight. I should know having entered/left this corner 150+ times.

[ken devine]

I thought that to John but the angle doesn't look right to me,as the fence doesn,t show. My photos of course are all from the inside
of KLG corner.

[Repco22]

Ken,
As Rod is not out of bed yet allow me to venture a reply.
KLG corner at the beginning of the main straight. I should know having entered/left this corner 150+ times.

John, I think you racked up those laps in a couple of '6-Hours' when it was often wet and overcast and hard to see where you were!
KLG Corner had a neat post and rail fence on the outside with signs on it and crowds behind it. The pic was taken on practice day so there were less people about but it's Coca Cola Corner--the one leading off the straight.

[Dick Willis]

"Unbuilt" would seem to me to be a more logical word for the creation of the Kaye Special...

The photos I've seen of it picture a stripped chassis with mechanical components, steering column and wheel and a driver's seat.

Didn't Jim Gullan say he didn't know how Doug drove it?

The Kaye special was advertised for sale earlier this year, in Victoria somewhere. I can find a phone number if anyone is seriously interested.

[275 GTB-4]

A good project for someone....(Just Cars - November 2014)

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 04 December 2014 - 22:09.

[Lola5000]

What was the address of Doug's garage in St.Kilda?

[cooper997]

When he was selling Black Bess it was 54 Acland St. St. Kilda.

Later it was 200 Burwood Rd Hawthorn, could be sometime late 56 for that address.

Stephen

[Tim Murray]

According to an ad on this page:

https://news.google....1,2034609&hl=en

in April 1960 there was a Whiteford Motors at 665 St Kilda Road.

Google also throws up this 1957 photo:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.pic-vn3083033

[cooper997]

Tim, to save this thread getting taken off subject, you should post that link to The Age in the Lotus 12 thread. Because you've just unearthed Ern Tadgell playing with the 'Sabakat' Lotus 12 - hopefully Mike Bennet notices.

The photo with the Lago is a ripper.

Another check sees Doug Whitteford Motors announcing a new Porsche showroom at 5-9 Carlisle St St Kilda in or around May 58. The Hawthorn address must have still continued into 1960 at least.

Stephen

[Lola5000]

When he was selling Black Bess it was 54 Acland St. St. Kilda.

Later it was 200 Burwood Rd Hawthorn, could be sometime late 56 for that address.

Stephen

do we think the lago is at Burwood road? would make sense as my father also had a business in that road and at the time owned the 1st Lago. 110007

[Tim Murray]

Tim, to save this thread getting taken off subject, you should post that link to The Age in the Lotus 12 thread. Because you've just unearthed Ern Tadgell playing with the 'Sabakat' Lotus 12 - hopefully Mike Bennet notices.

OK Stephen - good idea. Just one worry - the article talks about Tadgell fitting the Lycoming engine into a Cooper, not the Sabakat. Is this just a misunderstanding on the part of the article writer, or did Tadgell originally plan to put the engine into a Cooper? It certainly looks like a front-engined car with Lotus wobbly-web wheel in the photo.

[cooper997]

Tim, I think the writer didn't know a Cooper from a Lotus. Or vice versa. This Age piece was published exactly 2 months from the Lowood AGP meeting where Sabakat was reduced to the burnt out mess.

Rob, I tried to establish if that was Hawthorn for the Lago at the BP bowser photo. But failed. One thing I will say is that BP was definitely tied up with the Hawthorn setup. The area must have Bunnings close by now.

Not only was your dad in that area, but Harry Firth nearby too.

Stephen

Edited by cooper997, 02 April 2015 - 11:44.

[Tim Murray]

Thanks Stephen - I've now posted it in Mike Bennett's Lotus 12 thread.

[Lola5000]

Tim, I think the writer didn't know a Cooper from a Lotus. Or vice versa. This Age piece was published exactly 2 months from the Lowood AGP meeting where Sabakat was reduced to the burnt out mess.

Rob, I tried to establish if that was Hawthorn for the Lago at the BP bowser photo. But failed. One thing I will say is that BP was definitely tied up with the Hawthorn setup. The area must have Bunnings close by now.

Not only was your dad in that area, but Harry Firth nearby too.

Stephen

My father had a business that ran down to Harry's shop in Queens pde 

[275 GTB-4]

So this would have been Ferrari 275GTB #07307, the rebodied Spyder that appeared in Peter Wherrett's Marque back in the 70's, see youtube clip here: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=lZ2aCRVNlA4

According to legend, this Ferrari was lent by the father (Whiteford?) of the honeymoon couple and was fitted with inferior Australian tyres to save costs. The Ferrari suffered a tyre blowout on the Hume Highway near Gunning and hit a tree some way up. Les Miller built a new body for the Ferrari and the original body was hung off the wall of his Willoughby workshop for a number of years. I think Bill Prowse owned the car after Les Miller.

According to David McKay in his book Scuderia Veloce:

He was also a first class mechanic and a good sportsman. But Doug had been through a very low period for a few years commencing with his wife's death after a long illness and then the loss of his only child, Kay, who was just starting to make a name for herself in racing and who was to drive a Fiat for me at Bathurst in the 500, was killed in a road accident on the way home from her honeymoon. Kay and her husband had been with us all at Surfers Paradise for the first 12-hour race where her father was driving and had been travelling in convoy back to Melbourne. In those days the road between Sydney and Melbourne was a two-way strip of often broken bitumen and there were several notoriously dangerous sections which regularly claimed lives. One of these was south past the town of Gunning and it was here in the rain the Kay's husband made a move to overtake a semi-trailer and collided with another coming in the opposite direction. Both were killed and Doug, unaware of the tragedy, arrived home to find the phone ringing and the police telling him the grim news.

[Comment: I well remember cars travelling in convoy in the period. It made sense as there was people around to help one another with car issues. I can also remember an Uncle driving a lady's car on to a difficult punt entry etc]

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 11 April 2015 - 00:40.

[Lola5000]

According to David McKay in his book Scuderia Veloce:

He was also a first class mechanic and a good sportsman. But Doug had been through a very low period for a few years commencing with his wife's death after a long illness and then the loss of his only child, Kay, who was just starting to make a name for herself in racing and who was to drive a Fiat for me at Bathurst in the 500, was killed in a road accident on the way home from her honeymoon. Kay and her husband had been with us all at Surfers Paradise for the first 12-hour race where her father was driving and had been travelling in convoy back to Melbourne. In those days the road between Sydney and Melbourne was a two-way strip of often broken bitumen and there were several notoriously dangerous sections which regularly claimed lives. One of these was south past the town of Gunning and it was here in the rain the Kay's husband made a move to overtake a semi-trailer and collided with another coming in the opposite direction. Both were killed and Doug, unaware of the tragedy, arrived home to find the phone ringing and the police telling him the grim news.

[Comment: I well remember cars travelling in convoy in the period. It made sense as there was people around to help one another with car issues. I can also remember an Uncle driving a lady's car on to a difficult punt entry etc]

 

According to David McKay in his book Scuderia Veloce:

He was also a first class mechanic and a good sportsman. But Doug had been through a very low period for a few years commencing with his wife's death after a long illness and then the loss of his only child, Kay, who was just starting to make a name for herself in racing and who was to drive a Fiat for me at Bathurst in the 500, was killed in a road accident on the way home from her honeymoon. Kay and her husband had been with us all at Surfers Paradise for the first 12-hour race where her father was driving and had been travelling in convoy back to Melbourne. In those days the road between Sydney and Melbourne was a two-way strip of often broken bitumen and there were several notoriously dangerous sections which regularly claimed lives. One of these was south past the town of Gunning and it was here in the rain the Kay's husband made a move to overtake a semi-trailer and collided with another coming in the opposite direction. Both were killed and Doug, unaware of the tragedy, arrived home to find the phone ringing and the police telling him the grim news.

[Comment: I well remember cars travelling in convoy in the period. It made sense as there was people around to help one another with car issues. I can also remember an Uncle driving a lady's car on to a difficult punt entry etc]

That Ferrari has nothing to do with that tragic accident.

[275 GTB-4]

That Ferrari has nothing to do with that tragic accident.

G'day Rob,

I wasn't implying that it did...just quoting another account of those horrible deaths from a well respected source.

Cheers, Mick

[Ray Bell]

So if it wasn't the Ferrari and it wasn't the MGB...

What car was in the fatal crash? And was it a head-on or did they crash into a tree?

I will add that travelling in convoy is pretty silly, and it was in those days too. Arrange where to meet and then travel at your own speed.

[Lola5000]

That Ferrari has nothing to do with that tragic accident.

I got it wrong the Ferrari GTB275 with the now Les Miller late 50s body WAS the car that Kay was killed in, sorry for any confusion.

[275 GTB-4]

I got it wrong the Ferrari GTB275 with the now Les Miller late 50s body WAS the car that Kay was killed in, sorry for any confusion.

Thanks for clearing that up Rob...so very sad, tin rubber and glass can be brought back to life, but not people.

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 22 April 2015 - 23:12.

[Ray Bell]

For the record...

The crash that claimed the young couple occurred on September 5, 1967.

It should be noted, too, that Kaye's name was spelled with the 'e' on the end. Just like the Special that was named after her in the late forties.

[cooper997]

I've been trying to reconcile a birth date for Doug. I realise elsewhere in this thread it mentions 1917 for the year, but after a bit of fluffing around now believe 1914 is more likely. It would be good to find out for certain this great Aussie champion's birthday.

Stephen

[Ray Bell]

Would it help to know he went to school with Ron Egerton?

[cooper997]

In a minor way Ray. But wasn't that Edgerton with a 'd'? Who competed with Lycoming, Alfa Monza, etc.,Father of Greville, who ran the BWA, Cooper Jaguar and Elfin Mallala.

 

Stephen.

[Ray Bell]

You could well be right there, Stephen...

That's a 'correct spelling' my brain has lost track of over the years.

Anyway, I remember him telling me he was in the same class as Doug.

[Lola5000]

1917..day and month unknown .

[ReWind]

Ronald Miller Edgerton, father of Greville, was born on 23 November 1914.
Link
 
Someone with access to myheritage.com should be able to locate the birthdate of Douglas Seymour Whiteford.
Link

[Lola5000]

Ronald Miller Edgerton, father of Greville, was born on 23 November 1914.
Link
 
Someone with access to myheritage.com should be able to locate the birthdate of Douglas Seymour Whiteford.
Link

Or Military records if Doug served .

[cooper997]

Thank you for the suggestions gents.

 

Apologies for the delay in responding but I wanted to check something before responding further.

 

It turned out Ray's mention of Ron Edgerton became more of a help than I first thought. I had been messing around on various sites trying to get somewhere with Doug's birthdate and I had a bit of a think after Ray mentioned Ron and ended up googling both Ron & Greville Edgerton. During these searches I did stumble upon Ron's grave at Cheltenham cemetery as linked by Rewind. The upshot was it made me do a cemetery search to try to find where Doug might be.

 

What I unearthed was Doug and for that matter, his mother Gerte, wife Sylvia, daughter, Kaye and son-in-law Peter (all predeceased him) were cremated at what is now known as Springvale Botanic Cemetery – literally across Dandenong Road from Sandown racing circuit. So yesterday I had some spare time to drop over and see what was going on at Sandown Historics. After checking out what was happening there I went and found this...

 

 

Unfortunately as you can see the plaque only lists the date he died, which is well known. So I then went off to find the admin office. I explained to the lady what I was trying to discover and very helpfully she went off and returned with some documents that related to Doug. She glanced through them, but then mentioned that they don’t reveal a birth date either.

 

The irony of doing all this was that racing cars were roaring around Sandown and one of them had been Vern Schuppan in Doug’s second Lago Talbot.

 

So I tried, but we are still in limbo. And for the record after all the googling everything I found lists Doug as 64 at time of his death. So that puts him in the 1914/very early 1915 (at latest) birth period. there is also some conjecture thrown up regarding his middle name Seymour or Symons??

 

Stephen

. 

[Lee Nicolle]

On things Vern Shuppan, I went to the Auto Expo [Hot Rod show] last night in conjunction with the Zippel Cruise and probably the most expensive car there was Verns Ferrari 250.

And yes Vern was fastest qualifier for Regularity in the Lago. At the other end of the grid was Daniel Jefferies, grandson [great grandson?] of Fred Jefferies who had the BBM for some period late 70s. In what I believe is the ex Ian Brock Elfin Streamliner

[cooper997]

There's been a few of us with emails going left, right and centre in the last 2 or 3 weeks.

 

Today Doug Whiteford became part of the 'conversation' and Australian Bugatti enthusiast, Bob King popped this in the mix. So I asked if I could share it on TNF.

 

It's a photo Bob took at Doug Whiteford's Carlisle St, St. Kilda showroom around 1961/62 - Type 57, Aurelia GT and Doug's Rice Trailer in the back corner. I'm sure if you look hard enough there's probably Bob's fingerprints all over the glass as he wanted the Bugatti. Enough so, that a couple of month's after the photo was taken he owned the car.

 

Photo courtesy Bob King

 

Stephen

[Lola5000]

Stephen ,do we know where the two enclosed Rice trailers are now that carried the 300S's ?

 

I last saw Dougs one restored in a storage factory in Port Melbourne (8 years ago )

 

The Bob Jane one ? 

 

John Best had one till his passing a few years ago,but i think that the Stan Jones 250F one.

[cooper997]

Rob, it will be even longer since I've seen a Rice trailer. Last time was still in the Jon Davison era of Sandown when one lived in the fenced off Sandown fuel compound for a while in the 00s.. Then IIIRC Classic Throttle Shop offered one say 7 or 8 years ago.

 

Other than that perhaps read back through the Rice thread...

https://forums.autos...lers-australia/

 

Stephen

Edited by cooper997, 10 June 2020 - 00:41.

[Lola5000]

Rob, it will be even longer since I've seen a Rice trailer. Last time was still in the Jon Davison era of Sandown when one lived in the fenced off Sandown fuel compound for a while in the 00s.. Then IIIRC Classic Throttle Shop offered one say 7 or 8 years ago.

 

Other than that perhaps read back through the Rice thread...

https://forums.autos...lers-australia/

 

Stephen

Hi Stephen ,that is when G.Coad had it ,thats Dougs trailer ,I think when owned by Kerry Maniolas.

[cooper997]

Ferreting around last night on matters Lago Talbot or Talbot Lago depending on preference, I found reference to R&T doing a Lago feature in 1979.

 

After some checking today, it turns out the issue was found.

 

Original photo: John Lamm from November 1979 Road & Track

 

The feature car in question, is of course the then Peter Giddings owned 110007. So despite very little reference to it's Aussie history, the ex Ecurie France Chiron/Hawkes/ Whiteford/ Rex Taylor/ Ken Richardson/ Owen Bailey/ Barry Collerson, etc, etc French and Australian GP winner.

 

The driver in the Lamm photo is of course, Phil Hill at Sears Point. With 3 related Lago features being authored by Phil, John Dugdale (The Autocar) and John Lamm in this R&T.

 

 

Stephen

 

[Lola5000]

Ferreting around last night on matters Lago Talbot or Talbot Lago depending on preference, I found reference to R&T doing a Lago feature in 1979.

 

After some checking today, it turns out the issue was found.

 

Original photo: John Lamm from November 1979 Road & Track

 

The feature car in question, is of course the then Peter Giddings owned 110007. So despite very little reference to it's Aussie history, the ex Ecurie France Chiron/Hawkes/ Whiteford/ Rex Taylor/ Ken Richardson/ Owen Bailey/ Barry Collerson, etc, etc French and Australian GP winner.

 

The driver in the Lamm photo is of course, Phil Hill at Sears Point. With 3 related Lago features being authored by Phil, John Dugdale (The Autocar) and John Lamm in this R&T.

 

 

Stephen

Yep: Remember as a teen reading that R&T,  great magazine in those days , Hill, Ireland and Walker doing great articles .

[cooper997]

This advert from November 1990 (Thoroughbred &) Classic Cars makes for an interesting choice to sell your ex Whiteford AGP winning car. 

 

As far as I'm aware, during the Giddings era of ownership and the garage obviously sold Frenchies. Does anyone know anything else about the garage??

 

 

 

Stephen

[Ray Bell]

The 'Gawler Leyburn Grand Prix' would have been an interesting race...

 

I do have a photo of the car at Leyburn, by the way:

 

[Roryswood]

Old Woking Service Station , were connected to the Datsun RAC Rally efforts in the 1970s , Chris Sclater ( on Facebook) might be worth contacting for info

[Rebeccacollerson]

Couldn’t see this topic without posting pic of Dad (Barry Collerson) in the Talbot Lago 110,007

[Rebeccacollerson]

I’m amazed (& lucky) my tiny Dad (Barry Collerson) never fell clean out the side of this huge car, especially as he leans in to his corners

[Ian G]

I’m amazed (& lucky) my tiny Dad (Barry Collerson) never fell clean out the side of this huge car, especially as he leans in to his corners

 

Interesting,thanks for making an effort to Post Pics...

[MarkBisset]

 

Thanks for resuscitating this thread Rebecca, and indeed it is amazing your dad stayed in the car! 

This shot is of the car which made ‘Dicer Doug’ famous of course, Black Bess. Here at Balcombe, Mount Martha on the Mornington Peninsula on the Kings Birthday weekend in June 1950.

 

Funny, I drove to within 500 metres of this spot only two hours ago. See this piece about Balcombe, it’s a bit whacky-dacky as I’ve added to it as photos became available over the years; https://primotipo.co...on-little-alfa/

 

Photo credit Vintage Sports Car Club - Victoria Collection

Edited by MarkBisset, 26 November 2021 - 10:04.