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Porsche 917/30 - Porsche Museum


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#1 917historian

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 12:56

Looks like the Martini 917/30.001 is at long last going to get a restoration. The following photos are from Car Magazine Online.

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Copyright: Car Magazine Online

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Copyright: Car Magazine Online

Looks like the chassis has had a rough time over the last 36 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The photos are from the new Porsche Museum in Stuttgart Looks like you will be able to view the rstoration in the workshops. Next to the 917/30 is a new 917/30 frame. :)

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#2 Ted Walker

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 15:38

What a shame to restore it.It looks just like a racing car should .

#3 Alan Cox

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 16:25

Originally posted by Ted Walker
What a shame to restore it.It looks just like a racing car should .


I agree, Ted. For a car that has lain unused for 36 years, it looks pretty good to me. "Fair wear and tear" I think you could classify it as.

Looks like a worthy museum for the marque, though.

#4 SWB

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 16:29

They never looked all that good when new, but I like the patina. But I guess if they are getting it running again that could make up for it losing some character in the short term.

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#5 mfd

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 23:41

Originally posted by SWB
They never looked all that good when new, but I like the patina.Steve

For what it is worth, I agree. Sometimes I wish they would leave well alone.

Probably the reason behind it, is they want to run the thing...I'm not saying it shouldn't appear or be done, but a ground up restoration wouldn't have been necessary if they had bothered to attend to (all of) the cars periodically.

If you think through the period when Porsche were much more active in racing, the oldies became forgotten & unseen for the most part. I think they became embarrassed that all the old cars they sold were out there in action and perhaps in the run upto the 50th, they realised how little they had in usable condition themselves.

Excuse the ramble ;)

#6 Duc-Man

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 13:01

I'm not that good in Porsche typology: do I understand it right that this is the car that was used in '72 to develop the actuall raceversion of the 917/30?

#7 917historian

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 13:21

Originally posted by Duc-Man
I'm not that good in Porsche typology: do I understand it right that this is the car that was used in '72 to develop the actuall raceversion of the 917/30?


Correct. The chasss 917/30.001 was built so that different lengths of wheel base could be tried in order to obtain the ideal setting for the 2 Sunoco/Penske chassis. Porsche had the ability to chage the length of the wheelbase by inserting 3 different centre sections (Frames) into the chassis.

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Copyright : Not Known

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Copyright : Not Known
Photo of the frames that were used that were of different sizes. The standard wheelbase was 2,316mm. The different lengths that could be tried were - 2,400mm, 2,500mm and 2,600mm. In the end they went for 2,500mm.

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Copyright: Peter Morgan/Porsche 917 The Winning Formula

#8 RA Historian

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 18:43

A bit off of the subject of this thread but related. What is the history of the 917-30 that a Lance King drove in some US vintage races some eight to ten years ago? Somebody told me that it was an ex-Kauhsen Interserie car. Is that right?
Tom

#9 917historian

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 19:27

Originally posted by RA Historian
A bit off of the subject of this thread but related. What is the history of the 917-30 that a Lance King drove in some US vintage races some eight to ten years ago? Somebody told me that it was an ex-Kauhsen Interserie car. Is that right?
Tom


The car that Lance King Drove was 917/30.006 that was yellow and carried Bosch Sponsership. The car was and still is owned by Chris Gruys.

The history of this chassis is that the build started on this car in 1973 along with -004 and -005 as the intended race cars for Donohue/Penske for the 1974 season. Following Porsche's decision to withdraw from the CanAm series in 1974 due to rule changes the build was suspended.

Vasek Polak purchased 917/30.006 as a part built frame in 1979. Over the following years the car was built into a complete 917/30 using parts from Vasek Polak's huge spares inventory in Hermosa Beach. The car was demonstrated at various historic events on the West Coast of America normally driven bu Milt Minter. Following Polak's sad death the car was purchased by Chris Gruys.

Photo from Rennsport Reunion III at Daytona 2007

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Copyright: Pelican Parts

On the subject of Willi Kauhsen driving a 917/30, I don't believe that he did unless it was in testing

#10 Mark Bennett

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 23:25

Originally posted by 917historian
Next to the 917/30 is a new 917/30 frame. :)
[/B]


Hope it's not the one they are going to use - It's not the same... Look at the roll hoops...

It seems that many of the cars in the museum are being "restored". A real pity as they all looked well used but "honest" before. Now they will look brand new (or better :rolleyes: ) and all the history will be gone. :cry:

#11 mfd

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 23:37

Originally posted by Mark Bennett
Hope it's not the one they are going to use - It's not the same... Look at the roll hoops...

Big big oops :eek:

#12 MCH

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 23:46

Both chassis are the same around the roll hoop. To integrate the roll hoop with the bodywork they are clad in non structural fibreglass, hence the different appearance.

#13 mfd

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 00:06

Originally posted by Mark Bennett
It seems that many of the cars in the museum are being "restored". A real pity as they all looked well used but "honest" before. Now they will look brand new (or better :rolleyes: ) and all the history will be gone. :cry:

From what I read, the curator has said all the cars will be restored to working order - let's hope with a photo archive of 2.5 million images to refer to, they can get the details right.
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This one has always puzzled me, as the number style has been wrong for years...

#14 mfd

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 00:09

Originally posted by MCH
Both chassis are the same around the roll hoop. To integrate the roll hoop with the bodywork they are clad in non structural fibreglass, hence the different appearance.

Personally I can't see it, the other chassis looks more like a 917-10, (the pre turbo one)

#15 917historian

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 00:48

Originally posted by mfd

Personally I can't see it, the other chassis looks more like a 917-10, (the pre turbo one)


Mike, I believe that the spare chassis is a 917/10. The old musuem used to have one that was hung up on the wall.

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May be they have just placed it there to show the way the car is constructed.

#16 Mark Bennett

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 10:12

Looking at the other thread on 917's, this certainly looks like the chassis in the 917/10 in a photo there.

If it is fibreglass then that would account for the difference - and if it is metal then the hoops do look very substansial!

Just have to go and have a look myself then once it's open... :cool:

#17 RA Historian

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 15:42

Originally posted by 917historian


The car that Lance King Drove was 917/30.006 that was yellow and carried Bosch Sponsership. The car was and still is owned by Chris Gruys.

The history of this chassis is that the build started on this car in 1973 along with -004 and -005 as the intended race cars for Donohue/Penske for the 1974 season. Following Porsche's decision to withdraw from the CanAm series in 1974 due to rule changes the build was suspended.

Vasek Polak purchased 917/30.006 as a part built frame in 1979. Over the following years the car was built into a complete 917/30 using parts from Vasek Polak's huge spares inventory in Hermosa Beach. The car was demonstrated at various historic events on the West Coast of America normally driven bu Milt Minter. Following Polak's sad death the car was purchased by Chris Gruys.

Thanks much, 917, you answered my question completely. One more mystery (to me) solved!
Tom

#18 Duc-Man

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 19:04

Like I stated before: I'm not a Porsche expert! But I got pretty good in finding stuff on the web.
I found a photo that indicates that those hoops where part of the frame of the 917/30 but not of the 917/10:
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Taken at Watkins Glen '74. © Robert Murphy
You can see a vertical tube in the hoop.
Here is a shot of a L&M 917/10K from the back without rear bodywork:
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Year and location unknown to me (uploaded 2006). © cjcam

Something different: does anybody know the actual top-speed of the 917/30?
Different sources speak from around 380km/h to up to 405km/h.
I know the 917LH reached about 380km/h in Le Mans and Porsche put in Talladega a world record up with the 917/30 with 355.something km/h average!

#19 mfd

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 19:33

Originally posted by Duc-Man
Like I stated before: I'm not a Porsche expert! But I got pretty good in finding stuff on the web.

Absolutely - nice hunting :up:

Here's a question...I wonder what the frame number is alongside the Martini 10-30 ?

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#20 917historian

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 08:27

Originally posted by mfd

Absolutely - nice hunting :up:

There's a question...I wonder what the frame number is alongside the Martini 10-30 ?


Mike. Now that is a good question, seeing that new frames keep on appearing. ie 917/10-008. There are not many left, I believe only 4 (-009, -012,-013 & -014). May be if some one goes to the museum they could ask the question assuming that it has one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Im not going until March, so don't know if it will still be there by then.

The photo above is I believe 917/10-003 that was taken at an ALMS race at Laguna Seca.

#21 mfd

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 10:11

Originally posted by 917historian
May be if some one goes to the museum they could ask the question assuming that it has one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For the benefit of anyone going, can you indicate where the chassis number should be, Mike?

#22 Mark Bennett

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 11:16

Good find Duc-Man.

That seems to clear it up.

#23 917historian

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 11:25

Originally posted by mfd

For the benefit of anyone going, can you indicate where the chassis number should be, Mike?


Chassis number is on the rear x - member od the frame on th eright had side. Will post picture tonight

#24 MCH

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 11:49

Originally posted by mfd

Personally I can't see it, the other chassis looks more like a 917-10, (the pre turbo one)


Yes it does. My comment was about the photo with development 917/30 and the chassis next to it. The development 917/30 clearly features a 917/10 roll hoop. On the final 917/30 they're different alright.

#25 mfd

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 12:46

Originally posted by MCH
Yes it does. My comment was about the photo with development 917/30 and the chassis next to it. The development 917/30 clearly features a 917/10 roll hoop. On the final 917/30 they're different alright.


I wasn't trying to be contentious, I'm always happy to find out something I didn't know, which I have :up:

I think of a 917-10 as the the Can-Am/Interserie version, either with or without a Turbo. The Martini liveried car, I know as 917-10/30, this being a development towards the Sunoco 917-30. Is this correct?

#26 917historian

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 18:35

Originally posted by mfd


I wasn't trying to be contentious, I'm always happy to find out something I didn't know, which I have :up:

I think of a 917-10 as the the Can-Am/Interserie version, either with or without a Turbo. The Martini liveried car, I know as 917-10/30, this being a development towards the Sunoco 917-30. Is this correct?


Mike, I think that 917/30-001 was more of a 917/10 than a 917/30, yes it was a development for the 2 Sunoco car (917/30-002 & -003). Other than its been named as a 917/30 I think every thing about the chassis was '917/10'. The main purpose of the chassis was to test parts and wheelbase variations for the forcoming Sunoco chassis, As mentioned in an earlier post the chassis was built to accomodate 3 different sizes of centre sections.

Back to the chassis plates, the /10 and /30 had the plates is slightly different positions :

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/10 one the R/H side near the roll bar attachment. Chassis Number 917/10-001

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/30 near to the centre of the rear cross member. Chassis Number 917/30-005

:) :)

#27 mfd

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 19:11

Originally posted by 917historian
Mike, I think that 917/30-001 was more of a 917/10 than a 917/30, yes it was a development for the 2 Sunoco car (917/30-002 & -003). Other than its been named as a 917/30 I think every thing about the chassis was '917/10'. The main purpose of the chassis was to test parts and wheelbase variations for the forcoming Sunoco chassis, As mentioned in an earlier post the chassis was built to accomodate 3 different sizes of centre sections.


So if the (lets call it) Martini as it sits in the museum currently has all the marks that show it would / could be cut & shut (if you excuse the terminology) to accomodate wheelbase developments, then if it's re-chassied, if that's the plan, then it will probably just become another 917-10 or 917-30...hope you follow what I'm thinking?

#28 917historian

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 19:25

Originally posted by mfd


So if the (lets call it) Martini as it sits in the museum currently has all the marks that show it would / could be cut & shut (if you excuse the terminology) to accomodate wheelbase developments, then if it's re-chassied, if that's the plan, then it will probably just become another 917-10 or 917-30...hope you follow what I'm thinking?


Mike, Hopefully the chassis will remain as is and they will do a proper restoration using all the original parts and the 917/10 frame is just there as an example. It would be great if they did a video of the restoration as Gunnar Racing are currently doing with the ex Rosso Bianco 917.

#29 fbarrett

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 21:47

Originally posted by 917historian
It would be great if they did a video of the restoration as Gunnar Racing are currently doing with the ex Rosso Bianco 917.


Mike:

Is that 917/10-015?

Thanks,

Frank

#30 917historian

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 22:03

Originally posted by fbarrett


Mike:

Is that 917/10-015?

Thanks,

Frank


No Frank, its a 917K. The ex David Piper / Peter Norman Chassis. It does not havde a chassis number but was always known as 917-012 (021). The car was built by Piper on a frame purchased from Porsche, which was believed to be the ex-AAW chassis that was damaged at LeMans in 1970.

The restoration can be viiewed at Kevin Jeanette Blog (Gunnar Racing) : http://kevinshands.blogspot.com/

Great video's and photo's. Kevin has stated that he intends to find the truth about its correct history.

917/10-015 is currently with Porsche Cars North America being restored for its new owner

#31 markpde

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 23:53

Originally posted by 917historian
The restoration can be viewed at Kevin Jeanette's Blog (Gunnar Racing) : http://kevinshands.blogspot.com/

Cheers, Mike :up: - been watching the videos @ http://uk.youtube.com/user/teamgunnar but the blog is even better, still with links to the videos. You gotta love the belt used to secure the fuel tank!

mfd: Send Kevin a hat, Mike (it would be a gross insult to call one of your works of art a 'hat', but I'm sure you could come up with something!). ;)

Remember how the history of this chassis was discussed quite extensively in the '1969 917' thread, although Kevin clearly intends to let the evidence speak for itself:

http://forums.autosp...threadid=105140

#32 mfd

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 15:51

Originally posted by markpde
although Kevin clearly intends to let the evidence speak for itself:

His style is wonderful isn't it. Nice touch with the caps too. (Mark) nice idea, but I never made any merchandise, as I never imagined anyone wanting it.

#33 mfd

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 12:35

Originally posted by 917historian
Looks like the Martini 917/30.001 is at long last going to get a restoration.

I've just read the Frankel piece in Motor Sport about the museum & find it astounding that this self confessed Porsche fanatic, had never known of this particular cars existence...he says, when he first approached it, he thought it was a 908...he also says Porsche just "knocked up" a new spaceframe to rebuild it.
I think he earns money writing articles like this :eek:

#34 917historian

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 12:54

Originally posted by mfd

I've just read the Frankel piece in Motor Sport about the museum & find it astounding that this self confessed Porsche fanatic, had never known of this particular cars existence...he says, when he first approached it, he thought it was a 908...he also says Porsche just "knocked up" a new spaceframe to rebuild it.
I think he earns money writing articles like this :eek:


Mike, I find that amazing. Don't believe that the chassis has just been "knock up".

Knowing how Porsche seem to have frames in storage for years. Would love to go aground there "garages" at Weissach. As I said in an earlier post, there was a spare frame in the old museum. The photo of the frame in the Museum garage(post1) looks exactly like the old in the old museum (post 15)

#35 mfd

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 14:45

Originally posted by 917historian


Mike, I find that amazing. Don't believe that the chassis has just been "knock up".

Knowing how Porsche seem to have frames in storage for years. Would love to go aground there "garages" at Weissach. As I said in an earlier post, there was a spare frame in the old museum. The photo of the frame in the Museum garage(post1) looks exactly like the old in the old museum (post 15)


Agreed Mike! Perhaps the writer could keep himself better informed by reading TNF ;)

#36 917historian

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 15:38

Originally posted by mfd


Agreed Mike! Perhaps the writer could keep himself better informed by reading TNF ;)


Great idea.

Just another thought, If the museum do use a new frame, 917/30-001 will loose its individuality by not having a frame that can have its wheelbase changed. That after all was what it was built for!!!!!!!!!!! :)

#37 mfd

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 15:53

Originally posted by 917historian
917/30-001 will lose its individuality by not having a frame that can have its wheelbase changed. That after all was what it was built for!!!!!!!!!!! :)

Exactly Mike, that's what I was writing about in post 27...

#38 Tony Matthews

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 15:56

Originally posted by 917historian
Back to the chassis plates, the /10 and /30 had the plates is slightly different positions :/10 one the R/H side near the roll bar attachment. Chassis Number 917/10-001

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The chassis plate on the Leo Kinnunen 917/10 was in a slightly different position, RH side of the top rear cross tube. I can't find my photos at the moment, so don't know the number.

#39 917historian

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 18:31

Originally posted by Tony Matthews

Posted Image

The chassis plate on the Leo Kinnunen 917/10 was in a slightly different position, RH side of the top rear cross tube. I can't find my photos at the moment, so don't know the number.


Tony, thanks for the insight. Knowing Porsche I bet they welded them where they felt they were appropriate.

Kinnunen's 917/10 was chassis 004, and was destroyed in Hans-Dieter Blatzheim's fatal accident on the 14 August 1985 at the Nurburgring. The remains are owned by a Mr Heemeyer from Germany who also owns 917/10-006

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#40 mfd

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 00:29

Originally posted by 917historian
Knowing how Porsche seem to have frames in storage for years. Would love to go aground there "garages" at Weissach. As I said in an earlier post, there was a spare frame in the old museum. The photo of the frame in the Museum garage(post1) looks exactly like the old in the old museum (post 15)


I was just reading the recent Pritchard book & it reminded me the chassis was Magnesium. After 25 years I doubt it would have much integrity left, but apparently they already changed the frame to a 917-10 type with a fixed wheelbase some years ago. (according to the chassis notes at the back of the book.)

#41 Speedy27

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 03:52

Another Porsche museum 917-30, the ex-Mark Donohue car, was a highlight attendee at last year's Phillip Island Historic meeting. The car was driven at this event by NZ touring car legend, Jim Richards.

Two things about this car remain in my mind:
i) When you see it at speed on the circuit, it appears unnaturally quiet, given it's very imposing presence and compared to what I expected based on my knowledge of it's very effective history, and
ii) When one looks inside 'the office', the simplicity almost catches you by surprise. It's not notably out of character with other cars of it's era, but certainly compared to more modern machines, it looks - for want of a better description - like a hobbyist's homemade creation!

Here are two pics that I took of it on the day:

Porsche 917-30 @ Phillip Island 2008

and

Porsche 917-30 - The Office!

#42 Duc-Man

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 14:48

I saw one of the Porsche owned Sunoco 917/30s at the OGP at the Nürburgring in the early '90s and I remember that it was impossible to hear the car at all. Specially with something like 15 other Can-Am cars in the field.
I don't know which chassis it was since Porsche owns AFAIK two more or less identical cars.

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#43 Duc-Man

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 15:41

I was on the 9th at the Porsche museum and the 917/10-30 sits still in the shop. So does that frame. Unfortunatly I didn't find somebody to ask anything about it(they dont have a Information stand).

I just found this picture of Herbert Müller at the Nürburgring 300km race 1974.
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#44 Cam2InfoNeeded

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 21:44

Hi guys! I'm a newbie and just signed on. I didn't see an option to post this as a new topic when I was on earlier, but just discovered the "New Topics" button, and set my question up as a new topic.

I'm looking for good intercooler photos of 917/30-003 with the Cam2 intercoolers installed, or the car during the time Otis Chandler owned the car (1976-about 1983). See my new topic for more details.


Thanks!

Edited by Cam2InfoNeeded, 18 September 2009 - 02:51.