112 replies to this topic

[Racing Dutchman]

Warning lights, insulated gloves and colour-coding will help keep F1 marshals safe from the dangers of new KERS technology, Charlie Whiting told the media on Tuesday.

The dangers posed to drivers and team personnel by the high-voltage systems has been often discussed, but also at risk are the trackside marshals, whose mainly voluntary job it is to recover stricken or crashed cars.

"It's several hundred volts and the potential to be tens of amps, pretty lethal," said Renault Technical Director Bob Bell recently. "And it's DC, so if you hold it you cannot let go."

A KERS Safety Working Group has been chaired by BMW, the team whose mechanic was given a shock during early testing of the new energy re-use technology.

FIA delegate Whiting said a document prepared by the Group will shortly be circulated to all race hosts, in order to educate the marshals and other workers who will be exposed to KERS in 2009.



"There will be things like the KERS status warning light that will be on all cars," he said.

"If there's a risk, it should be clear to a marshal who walks up to the car. He should approach the vehicle, look at the KERS status light and, if it is in the wrong state, he shouldn't touch the car," said Whiting.

Another safety measure for marshals will be the colour-coding of potentially high-voltage parts, and the mandatory use of gloves "which are good for a thousand volts," Whiting explained.

http://en.f1-live.co...128103550.shtml

They seem to keep forgetting things with all these new procedures (like SC) and KERS

"Sir, we cannot help you because you are charged, see you later"

In best case (if there is no medical urgency) it means a special crew has to come to discharge it which could mean a SC whenever a car is parked around the track. Say hello to American style SC quantities

[Rob]

Originally posted by Racing Dutchman
[i]"If there's a risk, it should be clear to a marshal who walks up to the car. He should approach the vehicle, look at the KERS status light and, if it is in the wrong state, he shouldn't touch the car," said Whiting.

"I'm sorry sir, I know you're trapped in your burning car and will probably die from the smoke inhalation but I'm not allowed to touch the car because your KERS system means it's a deathtrap."

[Racing Dutchman]

Originally posted by Rob


"I'm sorry sir, I know you're trapped in your burning car and will probably die from the smoke inhalation but I'm not allowed to touch the car because your KERS system means it's a deathtrap."

If it wasn't for the fact it could really happen

[Motormedia]

Gonna be long safety car periods if everyone has to wait for some electrician to turn up and secure the wreckage before it can be removed. And is the KERS status light crash tested, is it fail safe? Wouldn't it be better if the marshalls were equipped with a meter so they can check if the damned thing is live or not?

[Clatter]

It's totally absurd, and predicted by many of us on here.

In an emergency situtation the marshalls simply should not have to second guess whether it's safe to touch the car or not.

[Buttoneer]

We had a few complaints last year about the length of time taken to remove vehicles, and although a lot of the impetus will have gone (the cars can pit for fuel now) this will only make things more difficult.

[Frans]

Alright, let's start a 2009 Electric Body Count for F1 then!

I'd bet the total in the end of the season will stand on 6.

6 electricuted Marshalls for entire 2009. yeah...... Prrrrrt, Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ZAP.

[johnap]

KERS is not just a gimmick, its a lethally dangerous system.

Racing cars full of fuel, made from carbon-fibre (a conductor) with an electrical system on board. Anyone want to take bets on the first F1 car to explode?

[Racing Dutchman]

Originally posted by johnap
KERS is not just a gimmick, its a lethally dangerous system.

Racing cars full of fuel, made from carbon-fibre (a conductor) with an electrical system on board. Anyone want to take bets on the first F1 car to explode?

KERS is for Marshall what this is for flies:

[Rob]

Originally posted by johnap
KERS is not just a gimmick, its a lethally dangerous system.

Racing cars full of fuel, made from carbon-fibre (a conductor) with an electrical system on board. Anyone want to take bets on the first F1 car to explode?

I fear we're back to pre-94 levels of thinking - it's going to take someone to get hurt before the FIA realises KERS is unsafe.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Rob


I fear we're back to pre-94 levels of thinking - it's going to take someone to get hurt before the FIA realises KERS is unsafe.

I'm going to go with 3 people.

1 will be considered unlucky.
2 will get peoples attention.
3 will get some action, if not from the FIA, then the marshalls.

[stevvy1986]

Have to agree with others on here to be fair. It is potentially a lethal system. Its expensive, unneccesary, and could certainly lead to injury for marshals, and potentially (though perhaps unlikely) if theres alot of KERS injuries to marshals, we may find marshals at races saying 'listen, this isn't safe, you've seen it clearly so far this season, either you order the teams to run without KERS, or we refuse to marshal this weekend as it's clearly too dangerous'

[Beej]

There is a lot of concern from the UK marshals about this issue. I do not know if I am allowed to link to a marshals forum where it is being discussed. Also I am not happy about people predicting how many of my colleagues may be killed by KERS. We all know the risks we take, and if the risks are to high we will not take them. The organising bodies know this so at the moment I am confident there will be measures in place to protect us one way or another.

The other concern that is surfacing is that people seem to be concentrating on the risks of electrical systems, what about the risk of a flywheel flying though the air spinning at a high rate of knots.

[dank]

Hmm, maybe it's a good time to invest shares in Wellington boots and marigold rubber gloves!

[hobbes]

I dont think there is a problem with giving us the link but at least tell us where to find the discussion

Can any of the 'experts' of the board confirm that KERS will be such a big problem during crashes or a big risk in general? I would expect the FIA to know what they are doing and not risk anybody's life!

[Beej]

Originally posted by hobbes
I dont think there is a problem with giving us the link but at least tell us where to find the discussion

Can any of the 'experts' of the board confirm that KERS will be such a big problem during crashes or a big risk in general? I would expect the FIA to know what they are doing and not risk anybody's life!

The disscusion is on http://www.ten-tenth...ad.php?t=108502. Mods please delete link if it is not allowed.

[alg7_munif]

Gasoline can be explosive, high speed moving parts can be dangerous but we still have them onboard. KERS is also dangerous but with correct implementation and safety precautions, it won't be anymore dangerous than the fuel in the tank.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by alg7_munif
Gasoline can be explosive, high speed moving parts can be dangerous but we still have them onboard. KERS is also dangerous but with correct implementation and safety precautions, it won't be anymore dangerous than the fuel in the tank.

When was the last time a fuel tank was punctured or exploded?

If fuel does leak at least you can see and/or smell it, you know it's happened. Electricity is invisible, you will only know there is a problem when it's too late.

[Felix]

Gasoline can be explosive, high speed moving parts can be dangerous but we still have them onboard. KERS is also dangerous but with correct implementation and safety precautions, it won't be anymore dangerous than the fuel in the tank.

It took motor racing 70 years and 1000s of deaths to learn how to manage fuel properly - during times when human life was cheap. One death from KERS is one too many, particularly as it is likely to happen in full public view.

[Beej]

Originally posted by Clatter


When was the last time a fuel tank was punctured or exploded?

If fuel does leak at least you can see and/or smell it, you know it's happened. Electricity is invisible, you will only know there is a problem when it's too late.

Unless you are dealing with Methanol burners. They burn with an invisible flame and sometimes the only time you know it is burning is if it is a good summer and the dry grass starts turning black. As I have said before in the thread I am sure they will do as much as possible to reduce the risks to volunteers. In the example of methanol, the cars have to carry a dayglo orange disc which means the car is using non forecourt fuel.

[Jackman]

Originally posted by Beej
There is a lot of concern from the UK marshals about this issue. I do not know if I am allowed to link to a marshals forum where it is being discussed. Also I am not happy about people predicting how many of my colleagues may be killed by KERS. We all know the risks we take, and if the risks are to high we will not take them. The organising bodies know this so at the moment I am confident there will be measures in place to protect us one way or another.

The other concern that is surfacing is that people seem to be concentrating on the risks of electrical systems, what about the risk of a flywheel flying though the air spinning at a high rate of knots.

I'd think the risk of being hit by a flying flywheel is about the same as being hit by a flying piston.

But I do hope that the safety concerns of the marshals are taken into consideration and, if not, that the marshals take their own safety into consideration: "I'm sorry Bernie, but the boys can't help: they said to say they'll marshal for GP2 and the Supercup because the cars aren't live, but after that you're on your own..."

[Beej]

Originally posted by Jackman
I'd think the risk of being hit by a flying flywheel is about the same as being hit by a flying piston.

But I do hope that the safety concerns of the marshals are taken into consideration and, if not, that the marshals take their own safety into consideration: "I'm sorry Bernie, but the boys can't help: they said to say they'll marshal for GP2 and the Supercup because the cars aren't live, but after that you're on your own..."

The flywheel we are talking about is from a mechanical KERS system such as what Williams are rumored to be running, no the flywheel between the engine and gearbox. And yes that is what it will come down to, and if there is no marshals there is no race.

[Jackman]

I knew what flywheel you were referring to, but it's a pretty unlikely event given it's a sealed unit. Unlike the risk of electrocution, which is too high to consider at present.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Beej


Unless you are dealing with Methanol burners. They burn with an invisible flame and sometimes the only time you know it is burning is if it is a good summer and the dry grass starts turning black. As I have said before in the thread I am sure they will do as much as possible to reduce the risks to volunteers. In the example of methanol, the cars have to carry a dayglo orange disc which means the car is using non forecourt fuel.

This is true, but this is a discussion around F1 which doesnt use Methanol.

I'm sure they will do every they can think of to protect the marshalls, but what about the stuff they havent thought of? And what of the added delay in helping a driver who might be injured, seconds can count.

[alg7_munif]

Originally posted by Clatter


When was the last time a fuel tank was punctured or exploded?

If fuel does leak at least you can see and/or smell it, you know it's happened. Electricity is invisible, you will only know there is a problem when it's too late.

That is the point, I'm sure that they will take precautions with KERS too.

[Beej]

Originally posted by Clatter


This is true, but this is a discussion around F1 which doesnt use Methanol.

I'm sure they will do every they can think of to protect the marshalls, but what about the stuff they havent thought of? And what of the added delay in helping a driver who might be injured, seconds can count.

Yes these are questions we are all asking. I have my annual training day on Sunday and hopefully this will be brought up. I feel sorry for the marshals at the early races in the season where it will be new, by the time Silverstone comes around any issues should have been dealt with.

[inca_roads]

Deep down, I believe they (FIA) know by now this is an enormous error, and it should never have been introduced. But large sums of money already spent and Max Mosley's ego are on the line now, and history shows us that's something which isn't easily overturned.

[Racing Dutchman]

Originally posted by hobbes
I would expect the FIA to know what they are doing

[stevvy1986]

have to say, at a time when they're trying to cut costs,this is an unncessary expense,especially as apparently next year everyone will have a standard KERS system, so theyre spending a load of money on something for 1 year, which is daft in this climate (given the cost cutting measures too)

[gwk]

Have there been any reported incidents of electrical shock, etc., in accidents involving hybrid road cars? There must have been hundreds of such accidents by now, and the voltages and power capacities involved are similar.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by stevvy1986
have to say, at a time when they're trying to cut costs,this is an unncessary expense,especially as apparently next year everyone will have a standard KERS system, so theyre spending a load of money on something for 1 year, which is daft in this climate (given the cost cutting measures too)

Yep, and finally BE is also saying what many of have said.

http://www.crash.net...ainst_kers.html
“I have always been against KERS,” the sport's ringmaster and commercial rights-holder told British newspaper the Daily Telegraph. “Whatever they use in F1 they won't use in a road car, but if that is to be the idea then why not develop it in touring cars? It costs a lot of money when we are trying to save it.”

[postajegenye]

- Introducing KERS in the middle of the financial crisis which has a huge effect on most F1 teams is bad
- The FIA may say it's safe, but they don't do the actual work with it - if the engineers (e.g. Bell) and mechanics who actually build the system say that they're unsure about potential dangers, it's bad
- It's a good idea to give a light signal to the marshall whether the car is safe to touch, but what if it's not and the driver is injured seriously?
- Where will this signal be, and how do they make sure that marshalls can see it, in case of a car buried into the tyre wall or being upside down etc.?
- If a situation can occur in which touching the car is dangerous for the marshalls, wouldn't it be dangerous for the driver sitting in the car?

[Clatter]

Originally posted by postajegenye
[B- If a situation can occur in which touching the car is dangerous for the marshalls, wouldn't it be dangerous for the driver sitting in the car? [/B]

Driver should be OK while sat in the car due to the faraday cage effect. It's when he tries to get out there could be a problem, he will have to jump away from the car, ensuring that he doesnt touch car and ground at same time.

[Owen]

Originally posted by Clatter


Driver should be OK while sat in the car due to the faraday cage effect. It's when he tries to get out there could be a problem, he will have to jump away from the car, ensuring that he doesnt touch car and ground at same time.

Some form of ejector seat is called for then.

[Ruud de la Rosa]

- If a situation can occur in which touching the car is dangerous for the marshalls, wouldn't it be dangerous for the driver sitting in the car?

No, while seated nothing will happen, when he tries to leave the car it could be dangerous.
In most crashes the car will be/have grounded somehow.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Ruud de la Rosa
In most crashes the car will be/have grounded somehow.

Would you be willing to rush in and be first to test it?

[Ruud de la Rosa]

if it lost it's wheels; yes

[Slartibartfast]

Time to paint the Armco green and yellow and rename it 'earth-strip', which presumably makes tyre wall-surrounded tracks 'double-insulated'.

[Racing Dutchman]

I want to ask Mosley which of the 5 hookers came up with this KERS idea to begin with.

Maybe Max was thinking rest of F1 likes pain just as much as he does

[postajegenye]

Originally posted by Clatter


Driver should be OK while sat in the car due to the faraday cage effect. It's when he tries to get out there could be a problem, he will have to jump away from the car, ensuring that he doesnt touch car and ground at same time.

That's a fair point, but getting out of the car can be dangerous too - even if the drivers are told to b careful, they may not remember that after a crash. Imagine a slightly concussed driver who is able to get out but his mind is not clear.

I'm sure this system will be quite safe, otherwise they would not introduce it - but if and accident does happen, it'll make big news and a lot of people will say "I told you".

[Craven Morehead]

I have hated the prospect of KERs since day one for all the reasons noted above. It's an unecessary dumb risk, and super expensive too. Just a bad idea all round, but the Fuhrer's ego is at stake now so there seems to be no turning back.

[Knot]

The best solution is to have a global law that mandates MaXXX to wear wet socks and take a whizz on each crashed car prior to action by marshalls.

[Racing Dutchman]

http://f1.gpupdate.n...rgen-over-kers/
They clearly state a list of good concerns, too many to summarize, so check the english version of the article as soon as it is posted (as it was founded as a Dutch site, it always comes in Dutch first)

I somewhat expect the anonymus marshall they talk about is Beej (http://forums.autosp...195#post3461195)

A extra concern I have = those new glooves, as soon as a marshall gets a little hole in them (which will happen very fast with all the little bits they have to pick up and remove and sharp edges around the track etc.) they will have no protection anymore with these glooves.


@ Beej, you and your collegues might want to consider sending a big *** you to Mosley and all the gentlemen in their comfortable villa's linked to the FIA or KERS project who aren't in risk.

[alfista]

And what about fire extinguishers? I think usual ones are only useable up to 1000 volts. Is there any possibility that marshal can get electric shock even without touching the car when trying to put down the fire?

[noikeee]

I liked KERS when it was proposed in the beginning, but the more people talk about it here the more I realise that it was a bit of a **** idea. :

[wingwalker]

I'm concerned about what would happen in REALLY heavy crash, and there will be one, if not in 2009 then in 2010.

Imagine marshalls approach the car that looks like that:



driver is unconscious or to too shaken up to think about anything and majority of KERS system, including the warning light and batteries lies all over the track. Who is to decide what to do? And when medics arrive (as marshals can be ordered to stay away keeping their fire extinguishers ready), they must be sure car is not charged, but how they can be sure?


Batteries laying on the track would be a major issue, too. Anyone willing to pick'em up? Didn't think so.

[Rob]

Originally posted by wingwalker
Batteries laying on the track would be a major issue, too. Anyone willing to pick'em up? Didn't think so.

You tell a newbie marshal to go and fetch it

[Owen]

Originally posted by Rob


You tell a newbie marshal to go and fetch it

While you retreat and watch from a safe distance.

[Apex]

Originally posted by wingwalker
I'm concerned about what would happen in REALLY heavy crash, and there will be one, if not in 2009 then in 2010.

Imagine marshalls approach the car that looks like that:



driver is unconscious or to too shaken up to think about anything and majority of KERS system, including the warning light and batteries lies all over the track. Who is to decide what to do? And when medics arrive (as marshals can be ordered to stay away keeping their fire extinguishers ready), they must be sure car is not charged, but how they can be sure?


Batteries laying on the track would be a major issue, too. Anyone willing to pick'em up? Didn't think so.

I can't see how touching that car would be particularly dangerous. It's already in full contact with both the ground and the armco. With the battery removed it would be even less dangerous.

[HoldenRT]

Originally posted by wingwalker
I'm concerned about what would happen in REALLY heavy crash, and there will be one, if not in 2009 then in 2010.

Imagine marshalls approach the car that looks like that:



driver is unconscious or to too shaken up to think about anything and majority of KERS system, including the warning light and batteries lies all over the track. Who is to decide what to do? And when medics arrive (as marshals can be ordered to stay away keeping their fire extinguishers ready), they must be sure car is not charged, but how they can be sure?


Batteries laying on the track would be a major issue, too. Anyone willing to pick'em up? Didn't think so.

That's what I've been thinking about as well. There might not even be any danger, but there will be a long delay because everyone will be unsure what to do and scared to touch anything.