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Turbo-engined test cars


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#1 ghinzani

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 01:50

At the dawning of the Turbo era there were a few intruiging test cars allegedly out there. I have read in Autosplurge of the following:

Toyota in the very late 70s/early 80s allegedly had first a Lotus 79 and then a March 802 to test their projected Turbo v6.

Hart ran Toleman TG280 chassis 9 with a Hart 415 prototype in late 80/early 81.

Harald Ertl is alleged to have ran Toleman TG280 chassis 8 as a test car for an F1 engine - but from whom? Zakspeed? Scnitzer? Was there not a 6 cylinder from Heidegger rojected around that time? Or was this a test car for Sachs to try out their products on much like the Ensign they had bought Harald earlier (1978?).

Maurer were also supposed to have a version of the MM81 designed to take a turbo engine when the chassis was current.

Alfa used a Euroracing 185T to test the 4 cylinder in 86, then put it away for a bit until Ligier ran it.

Honda of course used the Spirit 201 F2 car as a basis for their v6 test programme.

Anbody think of any more? Or have anymore insight into the above? I'd especially like to know about the Toyotas and Ertls project.

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#2 yuragagarin1961

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 11:57

I do have pictures of the Matra V6 Turbo mated to what was a special built Ligier chasis, nose up, taken at Matra Museo's at Romorantin, France, if you are interested.

david

#3 ghinzani

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 12:23

Originally posted by yuragagarin1961
I do have pictures of the Matra V6 Turbo mated to what was a special built Ligier chasis, nose up, taken at Matra Museo's at Romorantin, France, if you are interested.

david


Would love to see them up here if you can post them? When did that run then?

#4 yuragagarin1961

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 14:34

I am afraid I am not very good uploading anything here...

But please forward me a line to drodriguezs@terra.es, and I'll forward you later this evening -and you post it here if you please-.

david.

#5 f1steveuk

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 15:02

Of course Renault's first turbo "hack" was a Alpine, tested in a black finish. Jabouille told us that when he tested it at Jarama, the turbo lag "took weeks"

There was a rumour of a Tyrrell that was converted to test a Renault engine, before the contracts were signed...

#6 my_own_shadow

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 15:22

Originally posted by yuragagarin1961
I do have pictures of the Matra V6 Turbo mated to what was a special built Ligier chasis, nose up, taken at Matra Museo's at Romorantin, France, if you are interested.

david


http://sitematrarama....fr/V6turbo.htm

#7 fines

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 15:41

Originally posted by f1steveuk
There was a rumour of a Tyrrell that was converted to test a Renault engine, before the contracts were signed...

Really? I thought Tyrrell had a contract with Renault many years before he actually ran them in his cars! Perhaps you're mixing up things? Or do I? :confused:

#8 f1steveuk

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 16:10

Originally posted by fines

Really? I thought Tyrrell had a contract with Renault many years before he actually ran them in his cars! Perhaps you're mixing up things? Or do I? :confused:


I may well have miss read my own notes! But the basics are then Uncle Ken wanted to test an engine before committing to the contracts, and in my poor hand writing "a test hack was cobbled together". Since these notes are now water damaged, I cannot read the name, date or location involved in the interview!!

I shall go and stand in the corner, and think about what I've done.............

#9 ghinzani

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 12:54

Edit - fixed now!

Heres Davids rather lovely pics (I hope)
Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

I have made them links rather than Images as they are large. Let me know if the links dont work for you please.

Anyone identify what year the monocoque is? Id say 80 or 81.

#10 ghinzani

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 12:57

Ignore that the links dont work - bloody O2 - Il try Imagecave - back in a bit!

edit - hmm they are a bit big...

#11 Frank de Jong

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 18:39

You can't call this a test car (since it raced seriously!), but in 1979 Markus Höttinger's GS BMW 320 had the prototype of the BMW Motorsport F1 engine under his bonnet - with a slightly reduced capacity.

#12 bigears

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 18:50

I remember reading a 1987 Motoring News edition that Porsche purchased a March or a Dallara F3000 chassis and install their forthcoming CART engine (I don't know if it is a turbo as this thread is about turbo engines) as a test hack before debuting at Laguna Seca in 1987.

#13 RStock

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 19:53

Originally posted by f1steveuk


I may well have miss read my own notes! But the basics are then Uncle Ken wanted to test an engine before committing to the contracts, and in my poor hand writing "a test hack was cobbled together". Since these notes are now water damaged, I cannot read the name, date or location involved in the interview!!

I shall go and stand in the corner, and think about what I've done.............


The way I have heard the story is that yes , due to his Elf connections , Ken Tyrrell was first offered the Renault turbo engines , at no cost or almost no cost . But Kevin Duckworth convinced him the engines were no good , and he turned them down . KT later had to fork over big bucks and pretty much beg Renault for one .

That would make sense in him wanting to test one before commiting .

#14 COUGAR508

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 17:28

Originally posted by f1steveuk
Of course Renault's first turbo "hack" was a Alpine, tested in a black finish. Jabouille told us that when he tested it at Jarama, the turbo lag "took weeks"


Yes that's right, and it was quite a pretty car.

I wonder if a Porsche 956 was used at any stage to test the TAG/Porsche F1 engine?

#15 fines

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 18:02

I'm pretty sure it was, and run at Weissach, too! Don't recall the driver, though I want to say Watson - spot the irony!

#16 my_own_shadow

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 02:00

Originally posted by ghinzani
Anyone identify what year the monocoque is? Id say 80 or 81.

What about 1983 and Ligier JS21?

#17 ghinzani

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 09:27

Originally posted by my_own_shadow

What about 1983 and Ligier JS21?


Are the sides not a little low?

#18 rateus

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 17:51

Originally posted by fines
I'm pretty sure it was, and run at Weissach, too! Don't recall the driver, though I want to say Watson - spot the irony!


According to Doug Nye's 'History of the Grand Prix Car' both Watson and Lauda did plenty of running around Weissach with the 962-TAG hybrid - Wattie eventually did about 540km in it, Lauda about 300km.

#19 ghinzani

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 08:21

So it would seem from the Spirit thread Jo Gartner holds the dubious distinction of buying and converting back to F2 spec two different turbo test car chassis. Firstly the Toleman from 1980/81 which he put a BMW in, and then the Spirit from 82/83 which he put another BMW in and won Pau (well one of the Spirit chassis did).

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#20 philippe7

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 08:37

Originally posted by my_own_shadow

What about 1983 and Ligier JS21?


It was dubbed "JS19B" on the famous "cars that never raced " TNF/8W threads . But the car was never completed, further than this monocoque which is in the Matra museum in Romorantin.

#21 Dan333SP

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 02:29

According to Doug Nye's 'History of the Grand Prix Car' both Watson and Lauda did plenty of running around Weissach with the 962-TAG hybrid - Wattie eventually did about 540km in it, Lauda about 300km.


Just doing a little research on 956/962 chassis history... Does anyone know what happened to the car that they used to test the TAG F1 engine, and what sort of difficulties they ran into when mounting the narrow angle V engine vs the flat 6 that the car was designed for? I see you guys mentioned that it was a 962, but a friend with a book about the era tells me that the book refers to it as a 956 test mule and that after the tests were completed the car was given a nice paint job and a fancy interior for a display stand at the Frankfurt Motor Show. Any photos of the car with a 'real' interior? Any info about what became of it/what it looked like would be a great help :up:

#22 Henri Greuter

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 09:36


I recall having read in a Dutch magazine in late 1979 about a test that Lotus organized to select drivers for a "B" team and that Jan Lammers was past of this test.
However: the reporter also wrote that Ferrri was out there testing with Villeneuve with a Ferrari powered by a turbocharged Ferrari engine

No idea what car that can have been but it was way before the official introduction of the 126C (CK and CX) thus if it was a 126C prototype or a converted T4?

Henri

#23 arttidesco

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 09:54

Yes that's right, and it was quite a pretty car.

I wonder if a Porsche 956 was used at any stage to test the TAG/Porsche F1 engine?


I can't find the pic in google but I am sure I saw a recent pic of a 911 with a TAG engine outside the McLaren factory not so long ago, probably here on TNF ?

#24 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 10:18

There's a link to the page with the photo in the first post in this thread:

1983 Porsche 911 V6 TAG Turbo!

#25 arttidesco

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 10:44

There's a link to the page with the photo in the first post in this thread:

1983 Porsche 911 V6 TAG Turbo!


Crikey Tim I searched in Google and TNF but couldn't find it :wave:

#26 Paolo

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 13:05

However: the reporter also wrote that Ferrri was out there testing with Villeneuve with a Ferrari powered by a turbocharged Ferrari engine

No idea what car that can have been but it was way before the official introduction of the 126C (CK and CX) thus if it was a 126C prototype or a converted T4?

Henri


It was a Ferrari 312 T5 with a revamped nose, resembling that of the later 126 C. It was used in practice by Gilles for San Marino GP 1980.


#27 Henri Greuter

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 13:13

It was a Ferrari 312 T5 with a revamped nose, resembling that of the later 126 C. It was used in practice by Gilles for San Marino GP 1980.



Are you sure? As far as I can remember (must look that edition op to put it in the right timeframe) I think that ferrari even had not introduece the T5 officially yet.
Now T4 and T5 were very close.
The article didn't have a picture of the car in question.

You are right in so far that I know that the first of the 126CK's had a threedigit chassis number starting with 0 and by that time high up in the 40's ( I recall 049 or perhaps 048) and it was written about that first turbocar that it had a chassis number in between the last atmo T series cars so you could be right indeed.


The car at Imola '80, wasn't that the first genuine 126CK, designed for the engine? T5 and CK differed massively behind the cockpit too with the fuel tank up much higher and the bodywork too.


For the record, no offences here by me OK? Just bringing up what I know and wanting to verify that with others.

henri

#28 rateus

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 14:29

Are you sure? As far as I can remember (must look that edition op to put it in the right timeframe) I think that ferrari even had not introduece the T5 officially yet.
Now T4 and T5 were very close.
The article didn't have a picture of the car in question.

You are right in so far that I know that the first of the 126CK's had a threedigit chassis number starting with 0 and by that time high up in the 40's ( I recall 049 or perhaps 048) and it was written about that first turbocar that it had a chassis number in between the last atmo T series cars so you could be right indeed.


The car at Imola '80, wasn't that the first genuine 126CK, designed for the engine? T5 and CK differed massively behind the cockpit too with the fuel tank up much higher and the bodywork too.

According to Nye, the car that ran at Imola (which of course was the Italian GP that year) was the first 126C, chassis 049.

#29 Paolo

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 14:31

Are you sure? As far as I can remember (must look that edition op to put it in the right timeframe) I think that ferrari even had not introduece the T5 officially yet.
Now T4 and T5 were very close.
The article didn't have a picture of the car in question.

You are right in so far that I know that the first of the 126CK's had a threedigit chassis number starting with 0 and by that time high up in the 40's ( I recall 049 or perhaps 048) and it was written about that first turbocar that it had a chassis number in between the last atmo T series cars so you could be right indeed.


The car at Imola '80, wasn't that the first genuine 126CK, designed for the engine? T5 and CK differed massively behind the cockpit too with the fuel tank up much higher and the bodywork too.


For the record, no offences here by me OK? Just bringing up what I know and wanting to verify that with others.

henri


No offence taken Henri; I searched a bit and you are right: it was a prototype 126 C

Looking a the pic you'll understand why I took it for a T5, though...

http://www.giorgiogi...w...899&lang=it

Edited by Paolo, 29 September 2010 - 14:34.


#30 Dan333SP

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 14:31

There's a link to the page with the photo in the first post in this thread:

1983 Porsche 911 V6 TAG Turbo!

Interesting, but that can't be anything more than a novelty, can it? I can understand using a 956 to test a TAG turbo as it would at least offer a competent race chassis to the engineers to glean some data off of, but a 911 road car?

#31 rateus

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 14:48

Just doing a little research on 956/962 chassis history... Does anyone know what happened to the car that they used to test the TAG F1 engine, and what sort of difficulties they ran into when mounting the narrow angle V engine vs the flat 6 that the car was designed for? I see you guys mentioned that it was a 962, but a friend with a book about the era tells me that the book refers to it as a 956 test mule and that after the tests were completed the car was given a nice paint job and a fancy interior for a display stand at the Frankfurt Motor Show. Any photos of the car with a 'real' interior? Any info about what became of it/what it looked like would be a great help :up:

Oops, you're quite right about the car being a 956 - chassis 107 to be exact.

#32 arttidesco

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 14:50

Interesting, but that can't be anything more than a novelty, can it? I can understand using a 956 to test a TAG turbo as it would at least offer a competent race chassis to the engineers to glean some data off of, but a 911 road car?


A novelty mule perhaps ?  ;)

A couple of pics of the T5 and 126C from above reveals a fair amount of similarity, somewhere I have even seen the T5 listed as having the 1.5 turbo motor ! :drunk:

#33 Paolo

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 07:10

A novelty mule perhaps ?;)

A couple of pics of the T5 and 126C from above reveals a fair amount of similarity, [url="http://www.ff1.it/ff...err/index.htm"]

Yes, that prototype 126 is practically a T5 with a different tub.
Later model had sidepods top straightened, losing the peculiar upsweep of T4-T5, unfaired front rocker arms, and lateral radiators exhaust... at least.

Edited by Paolo, 30 September 2010 - 07:11.


#34 Peter Morley

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 17:27

Apparently there is a Toleman TG184 (chassis 5) with an Alfa Romeo turbo engine in the Alfa museum.


#35 Formula Once

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 23:02

First Brabham to try the BMW F1 turbo engine was a modified BT49, 1980.

Some ex-Ferrari F1 people tell me that Ferrari was working on a turbo charged F1 engine from 1977 onwards and that such an engine was tried in a car as early as late 1979, when it was still not clear whether it would be a turbo charged or comprex engine.

And didn't Benetton try the Ford turbo for the first time in a 1986 car? Plus McLaren tried Honda engines in a modified 1987 car if I remember correctly.

There were pictures of a turbo engined 179 distributed by Alfa Romeo as early as 1980.

#36 ghinzani

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 02:09

Apparently there is a Toleman TG184 (chassis 5) with an Alfa Romeo turbo engine in the Alfa museum.


Toleman/BenElton were rumoured to be getting the Alfa free, with Cheever for 86 so I can imagine the TG185 with the straight 4 engine but never heard of the 184 with an Alfa, was it the v8 do you know?

#37 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 08:51

First Brabham to try the BMW F1 turbo engine was a modified BT49, 1980.

Some ex-Ferrari F1 people tell me that Ferrari was working on a turbo charged F1 engine from 1977 onwards and that such an engine was tried in a car as early as late 1979, when it was still not clear whether it would be a turbo charged or comprex engine.

And didn't Benetton try the Ford turbo for the first time in a 1986 car? Plus McLaren tried Honda engines in a modified 1987 car if I remember correctly.

There were pictures of a turbo engined 179 distributed by Alfa Romeo as early as 1980.




Hi: I know you have a link to Jan Lammers.....

I recall having read in Autorensport in late 1979 about a test that Jan had for the rumored to be founded Lotus "B" team and in that test Ferrari was there, testing with a turbocharged engine, driven by Gilles. Not mentioned was what kind of car was used. But the writer metnioned that Gilles had told Jan that he hoped Jan would get the ride with Lotus.
Perhaps Jan can remember a few bits and pieces of that test?


As for 1987 McLaren's using Honda's, I have read that too. I believe it was in Ian Bamsey's book "Technical Appraisal" Mclaren Honda MP4/4.
Given the fact that the MP4/4 was delivered so late, McLaren must have done at least something in order to get some info about the Honda and provide Alain and Senna with something on wheels to drive with.


Henri





#38 Formula Once

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:19

Hi: I know you have a link to Jan Lammers.....

I recall having read in Autorensport in late 1979 about a test that Jan had for the rumored to be founded Lotus "B" team and in that test Ferrari was there, testing with a turbocharged engine, driven by Gilles. Not mentioned was what kind of car was used. But the writer metnioned that Gilles had told Jan that he hoped Jan would get the ride with Lotus.
Perhaps Jan can remember a few bits and pieces of that test?

Henri


Hello Henri,

The test Jan had with Lotus was in a 79 and it was about getting the second seat alongside Andretti in 1980 (the Lotus B-team thing involved Bleekemolen a year earlier). Apart from Jan also Elio de Angelis, Nigel Mansell and Stephen South drove during what was a 2 day event, possibly Cheever too, I would have to check. The test was covered quite well by Dutch media (I even have a copy of a TV program about it of around 20 minutes), but I would have to see what was written about a turbo charged Ferrari. I do have that article, but I cannot remember any mention of a turbo Ferrari (apart from that by then it was no secret Ferrari was developing one).

#39 Peter Morley

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:27

Toleman/BenElton were rumoured to be getting the Alfa free, with Cheever for 86 so I can imagine the TG185 with the straight 4 engine but never heard of the 184 with an Alfa, was it the v8 do you know?


Don't really know any more, assume they used a TG184 because it was obsolete and the team still needed the TG185s.


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#40 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 10:12

Hello Henri,

The test Jan had with Lotus was in a 79 and it was about getting the second seat alongside Andretti in 1980 (the Lotus B-team thing involved Bleekemolen a year earlier). Apart from Jan also Elio de Angelis, Nigel Mansell and Stephen South drove during what was a 2 day event, possibly Cheever too, I would have to check. The test was covered quite well by Dutch media (I even have a copy of a TV program about it of around 20 minutes), but I would have to see what was written about a turbo charged Ferrari. I do have that article, but I cannot remember any mention of a turbo Ferrari (apart from that by then it was no secret Ferrari was developing one).



Hey

Yup, you are right about the mess-up I made about Lotus-B team. it was indeed a ride for the first Lotus team, Elio also being involved.

At that time I was perhaps even more a Gilles fan than a Jan fan (and a big time turbotechnology fan too) so that's why I can still recall the mentionings of Gilles in a turbo Ferrari. I recall that the article mentioned Gilles following the test since his turbo-Ferrari had technical problesms, making it unable to driver the car.

My guess is that it is in the Autorenport of either November or December 1979.
I dare to put a drink on that.....


Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 03 December 2010 - 10:14.


#41 ghinzani

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 10:17

Henri - there was a mooted Lotus B team at one point though - Keegan and De Angelis were mentioned.

#42 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:38

Henri - there was a mooted Lotus B team at one point though - Keegan and De Angelis were mentioned.



I recall such. But as Formula Once pointed out, it was for the 1979 season and Dutch driver Michel Bleekemolen was considered for that project. That never happened and in '79 the Dutch had Jan Lammers in F1. And he was then considered for a ride at Lotus. And that test session of Jan in a Lotus was the one in which Ferrari was testing a turbocharged engine. But the report didn't mention what kind of car Ferrari used. Elsewhere in th thread there is talk about a T5 but that car was introduced/raced in 1980. So was it a converted T4 or perhaps an even older, flatbottomed T model. The first bespoke Turbo Ferrari 126C (CK and/or CX) was not introduced til later in 1980. No dpoubt that true Ferraristi can tell when. I remember something like a press presentation in the first half of the 1908 season before appearing in public at the italian GP of 1980 that was held at Imola that year. or was it indeed the protoype 126C ?????

But I messed up my details about the Lotus B team because of Bleekemolen and Lammers being told to be considered for a rice wit Lotus in two successive years.

But, Being a Ferrari, Gilles and Turbo fan, I still would love to know what kind of testcar Gilles drove during that session in late 1979 and how it looked.

Henri

#43 Formula Once

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 10:19

I recall such. But as Formula Once pointed out, it was for the 1979 season and Dutch driver Michel Bleekemolen was considered for that project. That never happened and in '79 the Dutch had Jan Lammers in F1. And he was then considered for a ride at Lotus. And that test session of Jan in a Lotus was the one in which Ferrari was testing a turbocharged engine. But the report didn't mention what kind of car Ferrari used. Elsewhere in th thread there is talk about a T5 but that car was introduced/raced in 1980. So was it a converted T4 or perhaps an even older, flatbottomed T model. The first bespoke Turbo Ferrari 126C (CK and/or CX) was not introduced til later in 1980. No dpoubt that true Ferraristi can tell when. I remember something like a press presentation in the first half of the 1908 season before appearing in public at the italian GP of 1980 that was held at Imola that year. or was it indeed the protoype 126C ?????

But I messed up my details about the Lotus B team because of Bleekemolen and Lammers being told to be considered for a rice wit Lotus in two successive years.

But, Being a Ferrari, Gilles and Turbo fan, I still would love to know what kind of testcar Gilles drove during that session in late 1979 and how it looked.

Henri


I found the article Henri

#44 ghinzani

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 11:28

The lotus link brings me back to my original point. Anyone know if the reported Lotus 78 bought by Toyota as a basis for testing their F1 prototype engine really existed?

#45 Formula Once

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 12:39

The lotus link brings me back to my original point. Anyone know if the reported Lotus 78 bought by Toyota as a basis for testing their F1 prototype engine really existed?


I shall ask he who knows...

#46 Michael Ferner

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 16:50

Henri - there was a mooted Lotus B team at one point though - Keegan and De Angelis were mentioned.


I do recall that, too - it came on the heels of Jumper's phenomenal North American performances as a Peterson sub, at a time when Carlos Reutemann had already been signed for TL. As I recall, it was all about keeping JPJ in a competitive car (= Lotus), and the number two seat was open to anyone with a decent wad of cash. I do not remember Bleekemolen, Keegan or de Angelis being mentioned, but I guess every journalist dreamed about a countryman in the Lotus 'B' "B" car :lol: I think the Germans pulled for Stuck...

Anyway, the Lotus 'B' team did become reality, after all... they covered a Lotus 79 in blue paint, and put the "Tyrrell" name on the sidepods...








;)

#47 Formula Once

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 14:58

The lotus link brings me back to my original point. Anyone know if the reported Lotus 78 bought by Toyota as a basis for testing their F1 prototype engine really existed?


Ghinzani: I have asked and this is the answer: the Toyota engine was to be supercharged but it never got beyond development stage and never ran in a car, leave alone a F1 Lotus. Plus it was worked on later than the Type 78/79, it was developed in the early eighties, 1982-ish.

#48 ghinzani

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 05:38

Ghinzani: I have asked and this is the answer: the Toyota engine was to be supercharged but it never got beyond development stage and never ran in a car, leave alone a F1 Lotus. Plus it was worked on later than the Type 78/79, it was developed in the early eighties, 1982-ish.



Great stuff - so wishful thinking by Autosport getting ahead of themselves. Thanks for the info.

#49 Henri Greuter

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 07:27

I found the article Henri



And? Do I owe you a drink?


henri

#50 Formula Once

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 16:24

And? Do I owe you a drink?


henri


Haha, no. I will scan it for you. And, curious as I have now become, I will check other magazines published in the same period, as I would surprised if a Ferrari turbo would have indeed run in public at the end of 1979 already.