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1939/40 Auto Union 1.5 litre


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#101 Doug Nye

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 14:22

This is all fascinating material indeed. As far as I can make out the Russian photo is of what became 'The Riga car with V16-cylinder engine, although the pic - my eyes? - can't resolve the number of exhaust stacks. All else is consistent with the Riga hill-climb car. As for whether or not any 1 1/2-litre Auto Union was completed to run before the outrbeak of war in 1939 I very, very, very much doubt the British magazine reports. 'Spy George' had his heart in the right place but he was surely passing on hearsay, not first hand sighting. I'd be pretty certain that one Sports Editor picked up another's 'scoop' and recycled it later, perhaps when the English-speaking source was back home and well met in the pub or bar or at a race meeting or function somewhere. The level of cheerful tittle tattle in motoring magazines was always high - and often utterly unsubstantiated or founded in fact.

For me I would only rely upon what I was told personally by Eberan von Eberhorst. "We never completed a 1 1/2litre car...only a few parts were made..."

DCN

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#102 Holger Merten

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 14:30

Right.

I beginn with the translation of the site from vitesse 2 on babelfish. There is the whole story, what happened to the cars after 1945. I could understand that it was the son of Stalin, who takes the AUs to russia. Very interesting, If I will have finished the translation of all the 5 pages, I will post it on TNF. May that needs some time.

#103 Racer.Demon

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 14:40

Originally posted by Brun
say thank you thank you thank you, please


Thank you thank you thank you :p

So why not give a recap on what we have established and what needs to be solved?

Facts:

- In 1946 the Russians took over the Auto Union R&D department at Chemnitz. This became part of the AutoVello consortium, in which EMW was also incorporated.
- Shortly after, 18 AUs were taken to the USSR.
- The ex-AU engineers, however, continued work on a D-Type based FB/F2 car. In real fact, they were working on orders from Russia to re-create two pre-war AUs to show the Russians how they had done the trick during the thirties.
- In March 1952 the prototype was first tested, slowly getting up to speed in April on a closed-off stretch of Autobahn.
- In May Stalin Jr, Russian Air Force chief, ordered the cars (apparently a second chassis had been built by then) to Moscow.
- On June 30, 1952, the cars, renamed Sokol 650, were entered in the Moscow championship, raced by Pavel Baranow and Vassily Kuznetzov. Both retired with ignition trouble.
- At the end of 1952 the two cars were returned to Germany. This was at the time the IFA Rennkollektiv (founded in 1951) was moved from Berlin-Johannisthal to Eisenach.
- There's picture evidence (from a 1954 issue of the DDR magazine Illustrierter Motorsport) of one of the cars in the (formerly Johannisthal, now EMW) Rennkollektiv garage at Eisenach sometime in 1953. This seems logical, as the Chemnitz site was by now closed down and all DDR racing activities were concentrated in Eisenach.
- The cars were also seen in the Dresden Auto Museum.
- In 1959 they appeared in a DDR propaganda film.
- In 1976 one car was discovered in Leipzig just before it was consigned to the scrapyard. This car was offered to Martin Schröder by Helmut Niedermayr and eventually ends up in the Donington Museum.
- We can safely say that the 'Sokol', 'DAMW' and the Donington 'E-Type' are all of the same design, of which two (perhaps three) cars were made.

Doubts, questions & conflicting views:

- Is there any truth in the Fellowes "spy George" rumours that one or more 1.5-litre AUs had already been built and tested (at the 'Ring?) in 1939? This would fit with the 1939 MB voiturette one-off, but AU was always thought to not have had the resources to perform a similar feat. In fact, common knowledge (as confirmed by Karl) has it that work on the E-Type only begun in earnest in 1940 and was laid to rest in 1941, the project still not having left the drawing board. However, Eberan is quoted as saying that many engine parts were completed in full. Could the 1939 tests in fact have been engine (part) tests on the dyno? But what about Bruhn's claim that the alleged cars had been stored way in Chemnitz for the entire length of the war?
- Where have the E-Type design plans gone? On the train to Moscow's NAMI institute along with those 18 AUs? The fact that the '650' is mostly based on D-Type design (as Holger states) makes it likely that the former AU engineers didn't have access to the E-Type plans.
- What's the deal with the difference in V angles mentioned (60 and 65 degrees)? Have there been several engine types or has the 60-degree Type-E engine never left the drawing board? What's with the 'complicated ethyl-methanol mixture' Flicker mentioned almost two years ago?
- What's the precise link-up with (and between) the DAMW and EMW? Why were the cars transported back to Germany where they apparently ended up at the Eisenach factory? Was the AutoVello concern handed to the DAMW in 1949 when the DDR was formed? Was the DAMW in fact the supervising institute over the Chemnitz (ex AU R&D), Berlin-Johannisthal (IFA Rennkollektiv) and Eisenach (EMW) sites? Can someone give some insight into their respective relation? Hans states that the DAMW was the (executing) part of the IFA Rennkollektiv, but somehow I believe that should be the other way around, given the meaning of their abbreviations.
- What did the people in Chemnitz do between 1946 and, say, 1951? Did it really take that long to develop such a car?
- Mike Lawrence (through Don) claims that there were three cars, whereas elsewhere I only find two cars.
- What happened to the cars after 1959 and how did one of them end up in Leipzig, several hundreds kms away from Eisenach?

#104 Brun

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 15:06

That's about the recap I've written :-)

- What's the deal with the difference in V angles mentioned (60 and 65 degrees)? Have there been several engine types or has the 60-degree Type-E engine never left the drawing board? What's with the 'complicated ethyl-methanol mixture' Flicker mentioned almost two years ago?
- What's the precise link-up with (and between) the DAMW and EMW? Why were the cars transported back to Germany where they apparently ended up at the Eisenach factory? Was the AutoVello concern handed to the DAMW in 1949 when the DDR was formed? Was the DAMW in fact the supervising institute over the Chemnitz (ex AU R&D), Berlin-Johannisthal (IFA Rennkollektiv) and Eisenach (EMW) sites? Can someone give some insight into their respective relation? Hans states that the DAMW was the (executing) part of the IFA Rennkollektiv, but somehow I believe that should be the other way around, given the meaning of their abbreviations.



I'll check engine specs this weekend. Autovello owned EMW, Auto Union and Simson from 1946 to 1952, as well as several other East-German industries. After that, it withdrew from the GDR and left the firms on their own. DAMW was a national research institute that started a motor racing project called the Rennkollektiv Johannistal. Later, this project got transferred to Eisenach (EMW) and was called (I believe) AWE Rennkollektiv, EMW Rennkollektiv or IFA Rennkollektiv. They occupied themselves with 1,5-litre and 2-litre cars until 1956.

#105 Holger Merten

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 15:24

Racer:Demon

Where did you get the fast full translation?

But thanks for the summary of facts and of the summary of questions.

I can give you one answer to the question, what did the people do in Chemnitz between 1946 and 1951?

They developed nice cars. The Russians supported them with everything they needed. American cars, Italian tyres and so on. So there where interesting prototypes realized. Like copies on Nash, nice designs like the Italians were famous for and so on.

In Chemnitz they worked under the same R&D structures and rules like AU did, before the war. Sometimes, in the early 50s the had no longer the money and so they lost interest in Chemnitz. And what followed everbody knows: two strokes stroke strong in Chemnitz. Although they developed also Wankel engines and modern direct injected diesel engines..

#106 Racer.Demon

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 15:54

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Where did you get the fast full translation?


Holger: there's no translation (yet). What I wrote is just my own reconstruction based on all the information in the thread, my own modest knowledge and some snippets from the translation. But I'm sure Brun will post a readable translation (by our co-worker, who happens to have a degree in Russian!) sometime during the weekend.

Another engine question: why did they ever decide to enlarge the engine to 2 litres (if it actually was enlarged from 1.5 litres) and comply to FB/F2 regs, where they could have simply bolted on some superchargers and make the car eligible for FA/F1!

And thanks for the information on what the people at Chemnitz were up to - very interesting. I guess this proves that there is no reason at all to doubt the level of craftsmanship and ingenuity of the immediate post-war DDR (ex-AU) engineers.

#107 Holger Merten

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 19:00

Racer.Demon

waiting for the tranlations, I did it on babelfish of altavista. As I wrote earliker about that link, it's the story about the Silverarrows after 1945. And with those pictures the story seemed to be very interesting. Okay we know that those online translations are not so good, but I read, that the Sokol named Sokol 650, like the "AU Chemnitz project Type 650" raced in 1952. The car was a 2L V12 Engine uncharged, with a 135 L fuel tank. Mostly what we knew from the post ww2 Chemnitz-project .

Much more interesting are the other fotos, if I understood that miserable translation right, they used some of the "nice" silverarows, to pull their own (or was ist germans) bodywork over it. To make Russians car industry modern.

This is incredible.

Back to your question about 1.5L/2.0 L. It's a question about formula racing. While it was planned to have a new formula with 1.5 L engines (charged) before the ww2, after ww2 the new formula with 2 L engines started.

May thats the reason. But what do we know about the two engines. Does anybody has some data?

Just another fact about the post war Silverarrow - Type 650: There is one differnce to all the AU Silverarrows. The Type 650 arrangement is: mid-sized-engine, gearbox and axle (is that right in english), while the A/B/C/D-Types had this arrangement: mid-sized-engine, axle and gearbox.

#108 Brun

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 20:09

But what do we know about the two engines. Does anybody has some data?



Well, the typ E and the mysterious “Donington-Sokol” both appear very identical. And they both sport a V12. But their specifications differ hugely. Where the typ E would have been a really quick beast, the Sokol must have been quite slow, being outperformed my most larger family cars today. Mr. Nye’s description, and I quote “gutless”, seems just about right to me.

The typ E-design shows these specifications:

A 60-degree V12-engine, 1481,8 cc, 2 valves per cylinder. Each cylinder is 53 x 56 mm, 10:1 compression ratio, giving 327 hp at 8500 rpm. Which is 220,7 hp per litre. 30 kg/m at 5000 rpm. There were to be two horizontal double Solex carburettors or 1 SU double vertical. It also would have been equipedd with a concentric pressure chamber compressor with maximum boost pressure of 1,9 bar. Gearbox was to be a 6-speed.

These are numbers that would have made any 1980 turbo engine builder proud.

According to Flicker, the Sokol 650 shows a 65-degree V12, 1992 cc, 2 valves per cylinder. Each cylinder is 62 x 55 mm, compression ratio is 15,5 (can’t quite place that number?), four vertical single Solex carburettors. No hp-figure stated, but 16,4 kg/m. Mike Lawrence states identical specs for the DAMW cars. Holger Merten quotes 150 hp at 8000 rpm, which seems right, fittting the low specs above.

#109 Racer.Demon

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 21:31

Well, that does it. It doesn't look one bit like the 2-litre unit was an enlargement of the E-Type engine, so did they make it from scratch? It would fit with the idea that the E-Type chassis and engine designs were part of Russia's war spoils, with the Chemnitz people having no access to them.

Holger: I understand the choice of engine size is a formula question but that's exactly my point. The voiturette class (1.5l s/c) for which the E-Type was designed was going to be (part of) FA/F1 anyway, while the unsupercharged 2-litre FB/F2 class was all-new and only came into play in 1948. As they were about to create an E-Type voiturette lookalike, based on a (larger) D-Type design, why not at once turn it into a Formula 1 contender with the all supercharging knowledge that they had? Looking at the "gutless" 2-litre atmo engine specs, they had a hard enough job creating a powerful unit that would be eligible for the forthcoming F2 rules.

So perhaps the deciding moment to start and build the car comes into play here. When did they really start? Before or after 1948? Or even much later? The first test we know of took place well into 1952 - and thus after the demise of the first Formula 1. Maybe they only started with this car in 1951 and rightly smelled the fear of F1 extinction, then quickly adapting to a Formula 2 strategy, which unsurprisingly failed, given the time they had. Another scenario is that they started much earlier and made a U-turn once the F1 formula was about to become F Libre territory. Is there any evidence of the Chemnitz team going the 1,5l s/c route at first in 1946? Conversely, why start work on a 2-litre atmo before October 1947 when the new voiturette/FB/F2 class was first announced?

I'm only making extremely wild and irresponsible guesses here, but perhaps the questions of a fool will lead the rest of you to wisdom...;)

#110 Holger Merten

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 00:06

Originally posted by Racer.Demon

I understand the choice of engine size is a formula question but that's exactly my point. The voiturette class (1.5l s/c) for which the E-Type was designed was going to be (part of) FA/F1 anyway, while the unsupercharged 2-litre FB/F2 class was all-new and only came into play in 1948. As they were about to create an E-Type voiturette lookalike, based on a (larger) D-Type design, why not at once turn it into a Formula 1 contender with the all supercharging knowledge that they had? Looking at the "gutless" 2-litre atmo engine specs, they had a hard enough job creating a powerful unit that would be eligible for the forthcoming F2 rules.




A good question.

1.st idea. The supercharging technology was not so easy to handle. They had to be able to work on necessarily precise technology and best materials independently. So, if they could by, which Russian support, cars or tyres, here was the point, they had to make up precise technology by themselves. If this could be possible after the Russians took away most of the machines?

Imagine, eastern Germany was cut from the west at that time. They had no factory producing motor oil, the had no factory producing sparks, they had no factory producing precise metal products. So everything belongs to the guys from Chemnitz, or to the connection 8and the money of the Russians) And here the story goes on, as I posted on anther thread. It was that AU know-how from sophisticated mechanics, engineers and process technology - for example building sophisticated Horch-cars knowledge - which made it possible to create those "Silberpfeile".
(Look at Dusio and his "car" -developed by Porsche with a flat 12 cyl. engine, and what happened to him- the same know how, than in Chemnitz - but a better initial position in the west . The story ends, before it starts about Dusio.) may it was really expensive create a supercharged GP-car.

2.nd idea. May it seemed in those day, that F2 could be more popular tha that "expensive" F1. I don't know the history very good in F1 racing. But I think at the beginning - end of the 40s, not so many factory started in F1, but many started in F2. As you know, sometimes F1/F2 Races started on the same track at the same time as one GP in two classes.

So I think, the Type 650 was built in the early years after the war. Maybe 1947/48-49. Than the Russians were interested. They had other problems later. That does not mean the car never started in the Russia as we know. But what the Russians wanted from the Germans in -lets say- 1946-1950- was know how, and delivery (name it examples). And it fits to the time. It was a privilege working in Eastern Germany for the Russians and not in Russia, as some did later.

#111 David McKinney

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 06:28

Racing in DDR at the time of the Sokol project was restricted to the F2 class. Unless the intention was for the car to race internationally, and there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that, it would have been logical for it to be built to comply with the local reglations

#112 Racer.Demon

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 08:21

Good point, David. As we know from Üchtel's work the West and East German 2-litre regs were in place from 1946 on, as a combined monoposto and sportscar class, joined by a 'small-car' 1.5-litre class, also mostly comprising of sportscars. The 2-litre BMW 328 engine was the only powerful engine around, so the rules were born out of practicality. The first circuit race was in 1947 at Hockenheim and the first Veritas and AFM single-seaters were only introduced after the F2 regs were announced in October 1947. So I suspect the Sokol project only gained momentum in 1948 or 1949.

And then of course I completely overlooked the fact that German makes were banned from international competition anyway...

#113 Brun

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 10:01

There are a couple of things that've been bugging me about the engine specs. First, there's this piece of information, that I cut&paste from a post earlier in this thread:

With regards to the comment about converting the engine to a naturally aspirated 2 litre unit, consider this extract from the previously mentioned Nye article from 'Classic and Sportscar' magazine.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from Rob Hall, one of the mechanics that assisted in the restoration of the Wheatcroft car
But the inlet manifolds are strange. You've got the four solexes down the vee, and each one stands off centre on a manifold feeding three cylinders, each carburettor and manifold in line alternating one to the right bank, one to the left. And because the carburettor choke is right above the feed to one cylinder the other two can't be fed as efficiently. It's as if the manifolds were designed originally for a supercharged engine....where the boost pressure would equalise it all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


There's the bore x stroke-figure, which reads 62 x 56 mm. Flicker quotes 62 x 55 mm. Yet it seems odd to me: bore bigger than stroke. Shouldn't it be the other way around, 56/55 x 62 mm, giving lower compression, necessary for the machine to run with a compressor? (53 x 56 mm on the typ E, 65 x 75 mm on the D). And what about the 65 degrees (60 on the typ D and E)?

Since the engine is obviously inspired by AU design, that leaves few possibilities.

One - the quoted Sokol specs in this thread are incorrect. Remember: they do not even quote a hp figure. So, in Chemnitz, they had all design plans of the D- and E-type. Which fits the bill, since the Russians ordered them to build this machine. Surely the military wouldn't have kept drawings a secret if making these plans a reality was their goal. But good compressor technology wasn't at hand anymore, so the team build the engine according to these specs, including block, pistons and crankshafts, yet use a different head and valvetrain, plus a slightly bigger stroke to make it a 2-litre. This would suggest that the slight differences of 53 versus 55 (or 56?) mm and 65 versus 60 degrees come from inaccurate measuring.

Two - the numbers quoted by Flicker and other sources are very accurate. This means that the design team did not have access to any pre-war technical documents. They started from scratch, more or less extrapolating on what experience they had. That's why they came up with a slightly different engine, with four instead of three camshaft. Still, it was meant to have a compressor, which for some reason they never fitted to it.

I think, giving what we know, that's about all we can say to it?

#114 Brun

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 10:46

Sorry, sorry. Should've thought about this before, should've had more coffee and should've checked what little math I know from school... The Sokol engine is 1992 cc for 12 cylinders, which is 166 cc per cylinder. So only the bore x stroke of 62 x 56/55 is correct. Please forgive me! :blush:

r= 62/2 = 31.
pi x 31 x 31 x 55 = 166 cc.

So, stroke is identical to the typ E design. Bore is bigger. This engine appears to be at least inspired by the design they had, but it's a different beast.

#115 uechtel

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Posted 30 June 2002 - 23:13

Hello!

back online again just in time to post a few corrections and additions:

I'll check engine specs this weekend. Autovello owned EMW, Auto Union and Simson from 1946 to 1952, as well as several other East-German industries. After that, it withdrew from the GDR and left the firms on their own. DAMW was a national research institute that started a motor racing project called the Rennkollektiv Johannistal. Later, this project got transferred to Eisenach (EMW) and was called (I believe) AWE Rennkollektiv, EMW Rennkollektiv or IFA Rennkollektiv. They occupied themselves with 1,5-litre and 2-litre cars until 1956.



Well, nearly, if I can believe my sources (mainly "Kraftfahrzeuge der DDR" by Werner Oswald). In accordance to that only the Eisenach plant was ever under direct Soviet control, as this area had initially been occupied by the Americans, therefore luckily escaping the first wave of pluindering by the Soviets. Then it was transformed inta a SAG (Sovjet Share Holder Company - is that the right translation?), which developed and produced cars under the BMW brand and logo until the factory at Munich began its production in the West again and forbade the use of this abbreviation legally in 1952. After that the factory was called EMW (Eisenacher Motoren Werke) and later in 1955 AWE (Automobil Werk Eisenach).

The rest of the East German car industry was of lesser luck and had been nearly totally dismantled by the Soviets inb 1945. The remains were amalgamated into the IFA (Industrieverwaltung Fahrzeugbau - Industrial administration of vehicle production), which was under East German control right from the beginning.

In 1952 the Soviets finally handed control of the EMW plant over to the East Germans, so it became part of the IFA in that year, with the consequence, that the EMW production line was stopped in order to produce DKW-derivates finally leading to the development of the Wartburg.

In 1951 the Rennkollektiv was formed as the official East German race team under control of the DAMW (Bureau for examination of goods and materials) at Berlin-Johannisthal. The reason was perhaps, to keep some independence from the Soviet-influenced EMW factory. But from the beginning the Rennkollektiv relied on parts from EIsenach, especially on the BMW engines. In 1952 the team was called IFA Rennkollektiv Johannisthal before it moved to Eisenach in 1953 becoming the EMW Rennkollektiv. It remained such until 1954 before another name-change into AWE-Rennkollektiv.

And another small one (just to be understood properly):

As we know from Üchtel's work the West and East German 2-litre regs were in place from 1946 on, as a combined monoposto and sportscar class, joined by a 'small-car' 1.5-litre class, also mostly comprising of sportscars.



Race car classes in Germany in 1948:

Sports cars up to 1.1 litres, up to 1.5 litres, up to 2.0 litres

It seems that around 1952 motorcycle-like wings were forbidden in these categories and the 2.0 class dried out and disappeared completely, de-facto amalgamating with the Foprmula 2 class

Race car classes:

Kleinstrennwagen up to 750 cc (no matter whether supercharged or not)

Formula 2 (2 litre). "Race cars" (separately from the sports cars) but seemingly of very free specification, so that 2 litre sports cars appeared very regularly in these races, especially after their own class was abandoned in 1953.

Free Formula: Everything else.


good night!

#116 Brun

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 07:22

The rest of the East German car industry was of lesser luck and had been nearly totally dismantled by the Soviets inb 1945. The remains were amalgamated into the IFA (Industrieverwaltung Fahrzeugbau - Industrial administration of vehicle production), which was under East German control right from the beginning.



Uechtel, then this is where the mystery lies, since other sources claim that the former Auto Union research & development branch was under direct control by the Soviets. Apparatenly, the military ordered them to build the two 2-litre racecars. You wouldn't happen to know more about this?

#117 uechtel

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 08:25

To be correct the IFA was founded at the end of 1947, but already in 1946 all the former production plants had been transferred into state´s ownership. As the GDR was founded only in 1949 this meant, that until then the Soviet occupation had control over all what had remained from the East German industry. Only after 1949 the factories fell back to German control again, which of course did not necessarily mean, that this inlcuded all of the supporting institutions. The situation seems to have been far from being clear, complicated by a lot of intrigues between the various institutions behind the curtains.

Here is what Werner Oswald (Kraftfahrzeuge der DDR) writes about the fate of the former Auto Union research and development branch:

From April, 1st, 1951 onward the development of all kind of vehicles was directed by the FEW (Forschungs- und Entwicklungswerk / Factory for Research and Development) at Karl-Marx-Stadt (Chemnitz). Its origin reaches back to the ZKB (Zentrales ENtwicklungs- und Konstruktionsbüro / Central bureau of development and construction) and the ZVA (Zentrale Versuchsanstalt / central laboratory for testing) of the former Auto Union. AFter the war these institutions had been revived by the Sovjets as the ATB (Automobiltechnisches Büro / bureau for automobile technology) and as the WTB (Wissenschaftliches Büro für Automobilbau /scientific bureau for car production) of the SAG Avtovelo. The works itself, which had begun a cooperation with the technical universities at Zwickau and Dresden felt, that they were hold in tutelage and opponed against this form of centralism... Finally in 1963 the factories succeeded in regaining full responsibility again for all new developments



#118 Holger Merten

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 09:38

Uechtel, here is Oswald not correct, the start of the concentrated R&D in Chemnitz started directly after the war. I will show the new structure, when I'm back home. Eisenach had top concentrate their R&D also in Chemnitz, I posted it already once on this thread.

What we have to look is, which role had Berlin in this new structure. May the the EMW was a German interested construction (made in Chemnitz, by the interests of Berlin), while the Type 650 was a Russian interested construction, by the interests of Moscow.

If you imagine the money spending for both projects: The Type 650 had more money in the background (new engine development, bodywork, and so on), than the handcrafted EMW, with the pre war based components, like engine and so on.

So I think, we have two concepts, one for germany, one for russia.

#119 uechtel

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 13:34

Holger,

I may have not expressed myself as precisely as intended. There is no contradiction to what you have said. Perhaps this becomes a little bit clearer if I write it a little bit more chronological:

up to 1945: Auto Union R&D

1946 - 1951: ATB / WTB (under Soviet control)

1951 - 1955: FEW (under command of the GDR)

So the former Auto Union research center was indeed under direct Soviet influence until 1951, the occupation authorities retaining what they had regarded as useful and only handed back to the East Germans, what seemed to have been less valuable, like the dismantled Auto Union factories.

I wrote all this only to solve some of the confusion about how IFA, SAG Avtovelo, DAMW, EMW, AWE have to be separated from each other.

Again a little bit more chronological:

Auto Union plants:

1945 dismantled by the Soviets
1946 transferred into people´s ownership (VEB´s)
regionally congregated into IVs (Industrieverwaltungen, "Industrial Administrations")
1947 all production plants in Saxony concentrated into the IFA (seeded at Chemnitz)
lorry production beginning again at Zwickau (at the former Horch factory)
1948 IFA extended to the whole of the Soviet Zone
1949 car production taken up again (former DKW models) at Zwickau (former Audi factory)
1955 new models from Zwickau now sold under the AWZ brand (Automobilwerk Zwickau)
1958 VEB Sachsenring Automobilwerke Zwickau combining the former Audi and Horch factories
production start of the predecessors of the Trabant at Zwickau

Eisenach factory:

1945 initially occupied by the US
then handed over to the Soviets and transformed into the SAG Avotvelo
1946/47 production of BMW cars resurrected, supply advantage against the IFA
1949 first race car prototypes built by the BSG Eisenach (Betriebssportgemeinschaft, in theory
this is sort of a sports club open for workers of the factory)
1952 factory transferred into East German ownership again
adopted EMW brand after legal strife with the West German BMW company
1953 Rennkollektiv Johannisthal incorporated, now EMW Rennkollektiv
production of the former IFA models transferred to Eisenach
1955 VEB Automobilwerk Eisenach (AWE), hence now AWE Rennkollektiv
begin of the production of the Wartburg cars, former BMW models stopped

Rennkollektiv

1951 founded as Rennkollektiv Johannisthal (at Berlin), begin of official racing activities
cars designated as DAMWs, built at Johannisthal with support from the Eisenach factory
1952 incorporated into the IFA, but still at Berlin: IFA-Rennkollektiv Johannisthal
1953 transferred to Eisenach as EMW Rennkollektiv

For me this sounds as whether the DAMW developments and the efforts at Chemnitz ran mainly independent from each other at least until 1952. The DAMW was a complete East german effort, while the simultaneous development of a rear engined car at Chemnitz could have indeed been initiated by the Soviets. Perhaps when the Sokol turned out not to be the expected winning machine they lost interest and handed it back to the East Germans in 1952/53. At the same time the official racing activities of the GDR were concentrated at Eisenach, so this could have been the explanation why the car appeared later in the premises of the Rennkollektiv. If this theory is right the cars could not be regarded as DAMWs, as this designation was only kept for the cars of the Rennkollektiv built at Johannisthal.

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#120 Brun

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 14:07

Ah, excellent work, Uechtel!

Reading your timeline comfirms the picture that gradually appeares in the mountain of information that this thread's gathered. Let's just recap to see if I'm right.

That is, that the so-called 12-cylinder typ E in the Donington museum is a car that was built under Soviet administration, somewhere between 1946 and early 1952. The Russians got together a group of former AU-employees in the R&D facilities in Chemnitz to build a racecar that was to be as close a copy of the pre-war Auto Union beasts. They did it to get as much expertise out of the German car industry as possible. It also seems that this team had access to Auto Union-leftovers, like drawings and materials. But it is not precisely known how much they had at their disposal.

The project resulted in at least two cars, that were sent to Moscow in the spring of 1952 (or ordered there by the son of Stalin). At least one of them became known as the Sokol 650. The cars were a let-down, suffering from lubrication problems and lack of power. Their engines, designed to run with a compressor and clearly inspired by the pre-war V12's, had to make do with 4 Solex carburettors, which left them far from producing any spectacular results.

So one car, or both of them, were sent back to the GDR. The Soviets had no further interest, since they already had all the pre-war stuff back in their Moscow research facilities. The two cars were left at the hands of the East-Germans. At least one of these machines made it to Eisenach in 1953 or 1954, where the Rennkollektiv was begging for drivable machines. A picture shows it next to the EMW Monoposto in 1954. Some sources say they were test-driven on the isolated stretch of A4 autobahn in the no-man's land at the border. Also, there are stories about the V12 being replaced by a BMW/EMW inline-6. Anyway, the EMW's were a lot faster, so the 'Sokol-AU's' never saw a race. One of the cars survived intact, was sent to the scrapyard in the early 1970s, to be discovered by the guy in Leipzig. Our famous Mr. Niedermayr forced him to hand it over, selling it to Donington the very next day.

It is not a DAMW, yet it is at least partially an Auto Union, since some AU-parts & some AU-knowledge went into it. To classify it as a true Auto Union silberpfeil would be over the top, in my opinion. The name 'Sokol' is a designation that these cars received only after they'd be brought to Moscow.

Feel free to comment. :-)

#121 Holger Merten

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 18:16

Thank you uechtel, for the chronological order.

Just to have everything in the details correct, otherwise we have some problems for all the others on TNF with the history.

Here some more facts about the “Rennkollektiv”:

The Rennkollektiv was founded at the “Deutschen Amt für Material- und Warenprüfung” (DAMW) in 1950: It was the Racing driver Dr. Ring, who came at the end of the 40s beack from West-Germany to East-Germany and got the permission from Wilhem Pieck. Starting in January 1951 in an old car garage of the SMAD on the plant of the Airport Berlin Johannisthal.

They built up cars on base of the BMW 328 in the class of 1.5 l and 2.0 l. Succesfull two years of racing started.

But it was clear, that the old construction was not longer good enough for racing against Borgward and Porsche. So they began planning an 2.5 L 6-cyl. Engine for Formula 1. But the Rennkollektiv had to move to Eisenach. The new Director (Walter Gerstenberg) of the Rennkollektiv in Eisenach hoped, that the team went also from Berlin to Eisenach, but that never happened. They stayed in privileged Berlin. And that was the nearly end of some successful years.

(Source: Kurt Straubel, former driver in the Rennkollektiv)

#122 uechtel

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 21:20

Brun:

Sounds good indeed! It seems to make some sense this way with not too much contradicition in this theory.

But to me the question is still remaining, where (and when exactly) the cars were actually built.
And also: Why were the Auto Unions plans and cars brought to Russia when nearly simultaneously the Soviets ordered the development of new cars at the former Auto Union design bureau?

And then I would like to see a good reason why the cars should have been brought back to the GDR for 1953. If it was meant to support the East German racing activities why were they not brought there accompanied by some of the "captured" true Auto Unions (which in contrast to the Sokol actually HAD worked well)?

Holger:

We had this mysterious "Rennkollektiv origin / Dr. Ring"-story already here:

DAMW origins

please read especially the great comments of Michael Müller in this thread!

I have to admit, that I have not been aware of the Rennkollektiv remaining at Berlin. My sources tell, that the team was transferred completely from Berlin to Eisenach and that one of the results of this was the problem, that some of the valuable technicians did not want to follow this move.

By the way: We seem to rely on very much the same sources! You do not by chance have access to some issues of "Illustrierter Motorsport"? I am missing especially those of 1951/52... :wave:

#123 Brun

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 21:43

Uechtel, where and when are my questions too. One day, I hope to find enough free time to dive into the Auto Union archives in Chemnitz and find out.

As to why the Russians did not leave any good cars in the hands of the Rennkollektiv: the Russian articles that I've mentioned earlier in this thread, seem to shed some light on it, and it confirms what I suspect myself. I will make an educated guess: after the war, the Russians simply didn't want German cars to be GOOD. They didn't want to emphasize the fact that their conquered Nazi enemy had built such fast and successful cars. Neither should any German race team be faster than their Soviet comrades.

The 2-litre-project, I think, was just to see what expertise they could get out of AU engineers. Just like the Americans asking Werner von Braun to develop more rockets. Had the results been spectacular, then Russia would've presented it as a Russian-built Sokol to the world. But it wasn't and they tossed it back to the Verkehrsmuseum Dresden and then the Rennkollektiv to play with it.

Only question remains to this theory is your third: WHY did they bother to bring them back to Germany. They could've kept them in Moscow and put the metal to good use there.

Maybe some German had the right connections. Maybe the museum in Dresden had requested it, since that's where the went first (I've written them an e-mail, asking if they know more, but to date there's no answer). Or maybe one car never left Chemnitz at all, perhaps the Soviets only took the other one, or even an unknown third car, to the Soviet Union. Anyway: enough questions to keep digging, I assume? :)

#124 Racer.Demon

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 23:08

Uechtel, Holger, Brun: you've done great work over the weekend. The puzzle starts falling into place...

Yes, the design timeline between 1946 and 1952 seems the biggest question mark - but here's another twist to ponder over: if by following Brun's hypothesis the Soviets didn't want the German cars to be good, why not turn the hypothesis around? Why would the Germans develop a new car and engine that would enhance the reputation of their 'conquerors'? If the former AU people knew that their invention would be used for the USSR's glory, with them not receiving any recognition for it and, what's worse, even making their own pre-war cars look bad, why would they even bother to hurry and deliver any quality?

If I were in their shoes I'd be hurt in my pride. I'd be complaining about the lack of good-quality materials and tools, and I'd be working on all those nice cars that Holger wrote about instead of investing in a USSR racing car-to-be. So what about the Chemnitz team stalling and taking six years to eventually deliver something that they purely created on routine, with the latest completed design (the D-Type car and engine) in the back of their minds?

About the two or three cars: two cars were raced (simultaneously?) in Moscow, but how many cars were in the Dresden museum and how many appeared in the 1959 film? If the two Moscow cars were never returned, how about another car remaining in Germany, going to Dresden, appearing in the Rennkollektiv workshop at Eisenach, becoming a movie star and being discovered in 1976? Could someone check with Mike Lawrence on his source for there being three cars?

#125 Racer.Demon

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 08:05

Originally posted by Brun
It is not a DAMW, yet it is at least partially an Auto Union, since some AU-parts & some AU-knowledge went into it. To classify it as a true Auto Union silberpfeil would be over the top, in my opinion. The name 'Sokol' is a designation that these cars received only after they'd be brought to Moscow.


With regards to the name: since the car had its single racing appearance as the Sokol 650, probably only bore a project number beforehand, was commissioned by the Russians and did not have a competitive outing during its DAMW days, it seems to me that there is no escaping from the fact that the car should be called Sokol 650, however dissatisfying that might be to some.

#126 Brun

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Posted 05 July 2002 - 14:20

Just to top up this wonderful thread: a link to an obscure site I found.http://digilander.li...sse-formula.htm briefliy mentions the Sokol 650 and also shows a lot of other interesting stuff from the east...

#127 David McKinney

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Posted 05 July 2002 - 15:00

Well spotted Brun :up:
I knew all that information had to exist somewhere. Just didn't realise it was on the web

#128 Racer.Demon

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Posted 22 August 2002 - 15:59

News from Brun, live from the Auto Union archives in Chemnitz. And it's not going to be good for the people trusting Eberan von Eberhorst on his word...

Brun has found factory reports that prove that by 1941 work on a chassis (!), the fuel pump, the rear axle and the supercharger had been completed - much more than Eberan ever admitted to. Another report states that Auto Union was fully committed to taking part in the 1940 1.5-litre races but had to withdraw because of the cars being unfinished. The testing and development reports run through to 1941 while the cost estimation reports go into 1942. So it's not inconceivable that the factory finished at least one car before the end of the war. In which case Richard Bruhn's immediate post-war claims gain a lot of validity.

Brun also found an angry letter from Hühnlein to AU about the shambles they made of their materials supply. The Korpsführer is quoted as ordering AU to stop being childish and take an example to Daimler-Benz, who had already completed their car and just so happened to have invited him to be present during its first test drive the following week... Do I spot some (significant?) favouritism towards M-B here?

#129 Doug Nye

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Posted 22 August 2002 - 16:10

:love: BRUN/RACERDEMON - THIS IS ALL TRULY FASCINATING STUFF - AND THE GREATEST THING ABOUT IT ALL IS THAT IT'S TAKING ABSOLUTELY NO EFFORT!!!!! VERY, VERY, VERY WELL DONE INDEED....AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING IT :wave:

DCN

#130 Vitesse2

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Posted 22 August 2002 - 16:41

I seem to recall saying on at least two occasions over the Goodwood weekend:

"I cannot believe that Auto Union would have just sat back and let Mercedes take the lead, even with a war on."

:D :D

There was so much slack in the German economy in the early years of the war that it wasn't really put onto a full war footing until early 1941 IIRC. I can't remember how much of this I've posted before, but in late 1939 and early 1940 the British magazines were consistently reporting Italian sources who were insistent that the German teams would appear in Italian races in 1940 - only for voiturettes remember! The Italian and German authorities even met in neutral Switzerland to discuss what form racing should take!

Even after the fall of France Hitler still hoped for a negotiated peace with Britain - surely the NSKK/ONS would have been keeping the German teams informed as to the political situation, in order that they could celebrate the peace with victory in the first race of the new 1941 Formula ....

#131 dretceterini

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Posted 22 August 2002 - 18:13

Even though the stuff exists on the internet, one still has to find it. Thanks for all the work...

Stu

#132 Vitesse2

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Posted 22 August 2002 - 18:29

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
Brun also found an angry letter from Hühnlein to AU about the shambles they made of their materials supply. The Korpsführer is quoted as ordering AU to stop being childish and take an example to Daimler-Benz, who had already completed their car and just so happened to have invited him to be present during its first test drive the following week... Do I spot some (significant?) favouritism towards M-B here?


A new car? A W165 Mark 2? Or .... ?????

What's the date on this letter???? The first tests of the W165 were in January 1939 ....

#133 VAR1016

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Posted 22 August 2002 - 18:54

Originally posted by Vitesse2


A new car? A W165 Mark 2? Or .... ?????

What's the date on this letter???? The first tests of the W165 were in January 1939 ....


I wonder if Huhnlein misunderstood?

I read somewhere that Mercedes/Benz continued the development of the W165 (it may even have had a new type number) until 1941 - possibly 1942. I understand that considerable power increases were achieved.

PdeRL :smoking:

#134 Racer.Demon

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Posted 22 August 2002 - 18:54

That's what I would like to know as well!

It's one of the things I asked Brun (I'm only translating what he wrote to me), but he'll be back next week anyway and bring photocopies of everything.

#135 VAR1016

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Posted 22 August 2002 - 19:04

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
That's what I would like to know as well!

It's one of the things I asked Brun (I'm only translating what he wrote to me), but he'll be back next week anyway and bring photocopies of everything.


I have to own up and say that I had never heard of the AU 1.5 litre project until I came across this thread, but I would be grateful if someone could remind me where I read about the W165 developments. And of course, more technical stuff on the AU too.

I suspect that I am far from alone in being fascinated by this late 'thirties high-tech stuff.

PdeRL :smoking:

#136 Brun

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Posted 23 August 2002 - 10:52

Right, time to write a first-hand report from Chemnitz.

There was so much slack in the German economy in the early years of the war that it wasn't really put onto a full war footing until early 1941 IIRC. I can't remember how much of this I've posted before, but in late 1939 and early 1940 the British magazines were consistently reporting Italian sources who were insistent that the German teams would appear in Italian races in 1940 - only for voiturettes remember! The Italian and German authorities even met in neutral Switzerland to discuss what form racing should take!



I have a complete copy of the ONS-meeting of November 20th 1939, with the directors of AU, MB and Continental. First, there is a lot of discussion about whether to take part in the Italian races or not. It also states all the races the Italians have planned, and they also talk about the Nuvolari-problem. AU says he's the only capable driver they have, the ONS says they might consider letting him race for Germany in the Italian races.

As for Hühnleins letter: it dates April 16th. 1940. The Daimler-Benz testdrives to which he was invited, are quoted to take place 'very soon'. Hühnlein calls it 'ihrer neuen Rennwagen', or 'their new racecar'.

Of course, I'll scan it and put it up as soon as possible, too.

Some other interesting stuff:

On March 20th 1940, AU writes down that 60 percent of the materials needed for the 1,5 litre can be taken from the 3-litre-stuff still lying around. The engine models are ready and are currently being moulded/casted. The front axle and the chassis are being made as we (they) speak, construction of the 'gearbox and rear axle, brakes, steering etc.' is almost done. However, acquiring the leichtmetall parts (aluminium?) proves to be difficult. Up till now, they have solved it using up personal favours.

There is a second report, dating december 30th 1940. It says they had gained good results from the 1-cylinder test engine. Also, they experimented with four valves per cylinder on real-size models. Development on the valve train was complete, with tests showing that valve float would not occur before revs of 11400 rpm!

Interesting quote: "the first complete 1,5 litre engine can be built als soon as the crankshaft is available, since block and head are almost ready."

There is so much interesting material in the archives, that it overwhelmed me. I've sifted trought dozens and dozens of tests on the new excentric compressor, which in the end showes beautiful results. I have seen a letter somewhere stating that BMW is running test drives with a 2-litre-mode, I believe it was somewhere in 1939 or 1940. Forgot to copy it - if it is interesting, I could do that the next time I'm there. Because there is going to be a next visit. All this is too good to leave it lying around.

However, it seems that there is almost nothing beyond 1941, leaving a huge and strange gap until the 1945-1949 documents describing AU being closed down. It more or less confirms the persistant rumour that the Soviets took lots of archive material with them.

That's it for today, I am coming home this weekend in my own very-post-war Auto Union. Which rewarded me with the spectacular mileage (kilometrage, to be exact) of 333.333 last week :)

#137 VAR1016

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Posted 23 August 2002 - 11:44

Thanks Brun,

more fantastic information - especially about the four-valve developments.

These I will link over to the "two valves in the 1950s thread I started.

PdeRL :smoking:

#138 Brun

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Posted 25 August 2002 - 21:16

Strange things can happen. Today, I visited an obscure oldtimer fair. Browsed through some maps in one of the stands. Only to stumble across Doug Nye's article on the Sokol in Classic and Sportscar, december 1985... the very thing that started this thread and it's fascinating hunt for the typ E truth. Needless to say I bought it on the spot.

I found some other nice stuff to: a poster of the typ D Thoroughbred & Classic Cars of november 1979, a great German article on the Donington car and some other AU stuff from Martin Schröder, Motor Klassik 4/1987, and a page out of Thoroughbred & Classic Cars, may 1984, on the Riga typ C. It's on my list of things-to-read-and-scan...

But that's not why I'm posting. Can anyone tell me who 'Vater Bigalke' is? I found an AU-file, archive nr. 3903, in which there is a letter from this Bigalke to Von Eberan. There is no date. In it, Bigalke states that building and testing an 1,5-litre car (the German text reads like 'finishing the project') will cost a total of 295.000 Reichsmark, 'if we do no more than what is absolutely necessary and if we take into account the fact that we have only six men available'.

#139 jarama

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Posted 25 August 2002 - 21:37

Brun,

I know of Ulli Bigalke... can be Vater a nickname?

Carles.

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#140 Brun

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Posted 25 August 2002 - 21:46

Could be... who is this Ulli Bigalke?

#141 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 25 August 2002 - 22:06

Bigalke, Ulrich “Ulli” (D)
* 1 Juli 1910 in Essen, Germany
† 12. August 1940 in air battle above England


Ulli Bigalke attracted attention as a newcomer when he started out in 1934 with a 1,000 cc Fiat Ballilla sports car in a 2,000 km tournament run through Germany and finished first overall. He studied at the technical high school in Berlin-Charlottenburg for engineering’s degree. In the summer 1935, Ulli came to Auto Union as Willi Walb’s assistent. While in Zwickau, he also drove a 2-liter Audi in German tournaments. Bigalke’s many tasks included that of a reporter and he penned all of Auto Union’s racing reports, which served as information for the firm’s management. Other functions included truck driver, timekeeper, pit helper, travel and transportation manager. His hobby was photography and filming. Ulli traveled with the team and in 1936, he made two films about Auto Union followed by two more in 1937. He worked as assistant engineer in chassis and brake research. In this role, he had to break in the cars 1937 in America and at this time, his ability as a race driver was noticed. His lap times were not far off Delius’ and Rosemeyer’s. Bigalke, who was used to drive in new tires, participated at the 1938 driver tests at Monza and Nûrburgring, where he was fastest. As a result, team manager Dr. Karl Feuereisen suggested offering Bigalke a contract as reserve driver. Bigalke, who was very keen to drive, did not get a chance in 1938 because of the shortage of cars and the preference of Georg Meier as driver. Bigalke’s first and only race was the Eifelrennen in 1939 where Stuck was out with a sprained ankle and Meier’s car had developed serious problems. Therefore, Bigalke was allowed to drive and came sixth while his Auto Union ran on only 11 cylinders after lap one. At the Belgrade City Race, he made a few practice laps only. In 1940, he died in an air battle above England.

Alex Büttner wrote in No. 46, pg. 6 of MOTOR und SPORT on November 17, 1940: “The news of a death reaches the German motor sport friends: Ulrich Bigalke, the well-known upcoming racing car driver of Auto Union has sacrificed his young life in a sortie against England for Führer und Vaterland (Hitler and Fatherland) on August 12, 1940. In his flight uniform, which had been his full pride ….., the waves carried him from the hostile coast away homewards ashore on this side of the Channel beach, where comrades of German coast guard laid him in a tenderly prepared grave amongst the sand dunes on September 1.”

“Thus, it has now become sad certainty what his comrades and friends had feared already, after Uli Bigalke had not returned to his operational airfield after the great battle at Porthmouth and finally was announced as missing.”

In the Auto Union obituary in No. 46, pg. 27 of MOTOR und SPORT on November 17, 1940, it reads: “After weeks of uncertainty, the news reached us that our colleague of long standing, Ulrich Bigalke, has sacrificed his young life in fight for Führer und Vaterland at a combat mission on August 12 this year.………..”

Sources: Cancellieri/DeAgostini/Schroeder, AUTO UNION, Die großen Rennen 1934-39, Hannover 1979
Frankenberg, Richard von, Die grossen Fahrer von einst, Stuttgart 1967
Herzog, Bodo, Unter dem Mercedes-Stern, pg.167, Preetz/Holstein 1966
Hornickel, Ernst, Das sind unsere Rennfahrer, Stuttgart 1940
Kirchberg, Peter, Grand-Prix-Report AUTO UNION 1934 bis 1939, Stuttgart 1982
Knittel, Stefan, AUTO UNION Grand Prix Wagen, Mûnchen 1980
MOTOR und SPORT, No. 46, pp. 6, 27, Poessneck 1939
MOTOR und SPORT, No. 53, page 15, Poessneck 1939 ?

Incomplete racing record excluding mountain races (on Auto Union GP cars)
1938 French, GP DNS, reserve driver
1938 German GP DNS, reserve driver
1938 Donington GP, DNS, reserve driver
1939 Eifelrennen 6th
1939 Belgrade City Race DNS, reserve driver, practiced only

#142 Vitesse2

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Posted 25 August 2002 - 22:09

Ulrich Bigalke thread:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=44636

Killed in the Battle of Britain August 12th 1940. Auto Union reserve driver 1938 - no starts. Raced just once in 1939 - 6th at the Eifelrennen.

But despite that document not being dated, I don't think it's him. No clues in Nixon either.

#143 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 25 August 2002 - 22:36

Originally posted by Brun
.....Can anyone tell me who 'Vater Bigalke' is? I found an AU-file, archive nr. 3903, in which there is a letter from this Bigalke to Von Eberan. There is no date. In it, Bigalke states that building and testing an 1,5-litre car (the German text reads like 'finishing the project') will cost a total of 295.000 Reichsmark, 'if we do no more than what is absolutely necessary and if we take into account the fact that we have only six men available'.

Vater is German for father.
There are now different scenarios for us.
1 - Vater was applied as a nick name to Ulli Bigalke. Remember, he was only 29, but rather knowledgeable and very well liked, so they could have jokingly called him Vater (father) for his knowledge alone.
2- Ulli Bigalke could have married and become a proud father -Vater- and the name Vater was here just a joking insinuation.
3 - It is possible that the father of Ulli Bigalge was also employed at Auto Union and the reference Vater applies to him in person -no jokes this time-.

#144 David McKinney

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Posted 26 August 2002 - 05:55

I hope Hans won't mind a small explanatory note.
The term "tournament" is not usual in a motorsport context. The events mentioned were usually called "trials" in English, or "cross-country trials". As far as I can make out, they were closer to rallies than races, though driving skill was clearly a factor.

#145 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 26 August 2002 - 07:51

Thank you David,
I will amend my dictionary, just bought my third one from Cassel's. Very Good.

#146 Brun

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Posted 29 August 2002 - 06:07

Just a few updates. 8W has offered me to webspace for two articles on this subject - I'll accept his offer, of course - and Holger Merten has promised me more details on the 2-litre Donington car. Can't wait to hear more.

The AU racing department sent the board members cost calculations on the 1,5-litre project. They did this about every three months and the archives contains LOTS of them. I took some notes. Near the end of the file, it shows that most of the money went into engine development. The last cost report is from the spring of 1942. I hit myself for not copying this one, will have to do it when I visit the archives again.

However, one can safely say that the Auto Union typ E project was running until at least early 1942. That's two and a half, perhaps nearly three years after the outbreak of war in 1939...

After that, the archives come to an abrupt end. Were there more documents? There is also another file, which I have yet to read. According to the index, t is supposed to state how (and which?) documents went into by the Soviet-Union in 1945.

#147 Brun

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Posted 29 August 2002 - 07:42

BTW, there is a fascinating series of articles running on www.autonet.ru. Try http://www.autonet.r...D=175&topicID=3

I used babelfish to translate it into something more readable... but you'll have to try and make sense of it.

#148 Holger Merten

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Posted 06 September 2002 - 09:22

So first of all, thank you Brun, for all that work you did in Chemnitz in the last weeks, interesting information. And a new situation about that project. But the most things we knew before depend on Eberan von Eberhorst, who left AU in 1940 going to Dresden. So an interesting question would be. What did he really know? Or Why didn’t he talk about the Auto Union E Type. May Brun can help us.

Now I have scanned some interesting pictures of the post war AU Racing-projects for the russians, but I'm not an IT Cowboy. Have to find out, how to put pictures from my desktop (mac) as jpg on this thread. Somebody interested to help?

#149 Brun

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Posted 06 September 2002 - 09:33

Holger, if you mail them to me, I'll put them on my website. Then you can link to it in your postings.

#150 Brun

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Posted 06 September 2002 - 09:42

BTW - I'm planning a second visit to the archives somewhere this fall. Although I've got all the stuff I needed to do the 8W articles (in progress as we speak...), there was so much stuff in there that I just _have_ go get back.

Also, I have discovered something very interesting in the German State Library in Leipzig. It is a reference in the pre-1970 index, 'Auto Union Feldpost 1939-1944'. Sounds like a company magazine, I'm planning to see into that too.

Anyway, just thought it would be a good idea to plan ahead and ask here what you want me to look for... ideas?