33 replies to this topic

[xbgs351]

What lap times do you reckon a Formula 3 or Formula Holden or even a Formula 5000 could manage at Bathurst?

[Lee Nicolle]

While it will never happen a good current set up 5000 will be the fastest, closely followed by the F Holden. The 5000 would have huge legs on the fast bits and up, and the Holden would be faster on the twisty bits.
A time would be around 2 min or just under.
I reckon a big 70s sporty would be right on the time too.

[xbgs351]

For comparison:
Niel Allen McLaren M10B F5000 2m07.7s (30/03/70)

[Ray Bell]

All of them would be under two minutes, even with the Chase in there...

The surface is all so much better than when Niel did the 2:09.7, and he wasn't being pushed, either. Not at all... check previous posts on his drive that day. There are also spots where the track is wider and easier.

[xbgs351]

When the Chase was first installed the touring cars where only one to two second slower than the previous year.

[Ray Bell]

Yes, largely because of improvements to the track in other places...

I would think a comparison with Phillip Island lap times would give an indication.

[Bondy]

I will try a F3 car tonight @ Bathurst on Rfactor and then the F5000 ;) should i try the Mclaren m18 or Chevron B24?



Looks like some people have had similar ideas ;)

[xbgs351]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Yes, largely because of improvements to the track in other places...

I would think a comparison with Phillip Island lap times would give an indication.

At PI the Formula Holden lap record is 90% of a V8Supertaxi, so one may be looking at around 1:55 at Bathurst.

[Lee Nicolle]

Originally posted by xbgs351


At PI the Formula Holden lap record is 90% of a V8Supertaxi, so one may be looking at around 1:55 at Bathurst.

90% of 2.09 is 1.57 which would be about right. The trick qualifying times from the tourers? means nothing,they would need trres every 10 laps with those setups. race times are 2.09.
Though throw as much money and driver expertise into any of the openwheelers that they spend on V8s and they will be 5 sec faster

[Lee Nicolle]

What time does a good 5000 and F3s do at PI?

[Bondy]

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
What time does a good 5000 and F3s do at PI?

According to the Lap Records, Leanne Tander 1m26.9031 F3
Chris Hyde 1m30.1205 F5000
John Bowe 1m28.9800 VesKanda
Bert Skidmore 1m30.1400 Lola T286
Craig Lowndes 1m33.4389 V8

[Lee Nicolle]

I find that very surprising that the F3 is so fast on a horsepower track, from memory they were about 2 sec slower at mallala than the F holdens which were about 1.5 sec faster tha Bob Minogues 5000. I Think??
The Veskanda time I guess is from historic meetings, where one would suggest that John was probably driving with a little reserve.
I dont think it ever raced there in its prime, in fact I dont think the track was even open then.

[Bondy]

Lee,

The Formula Brabham/Holden Lap record is in the 1m24s iirc.... There are some very fast corners at the Island where i guess a F3 would be much faster than a F5000..... John's time in VesKanda was at a Histroric meet as was Hyde's and Skidmore's times.... Interestingly i think John Briggs in the VesKanda last year was doing 1m33s....

[xbgs351]

90% of 2:08 is 1:55.


FORMULA 4000 SIMON WILLS REYNARD 94D 13/02/2000 1.24.2215
FORMULA 3 LEANNE TANDER DALLARA F307 MB 15/06/2008 1.26.9031
V8 SUPERCARS CRAIG LOWNDES COMMODORE VT 16/05/1999 1.33.4389
P(F 5000) CHRIS HYDE LEDA GM1 9/03/2008 1.30.1205

[Lee Nicolle]

I can remember in the mid 90s that a F holden was so different than the 5000. From memory it was Bob Minogue against Chris Hocking. The 5000 was so quick on the straights and about even on the fast corners but the slow stuff the F holden was streets ahead. He was pulling about 10 car lengths into Honda only to lose it up the hill, caught him almost at MG and then the 5000 just marched off again around the top and down to turn 2. At a guess the times would have been similar, but the laps were oh so different. [Bob Won]
I think JB would be faster in the Kanda than Briggsy, he has driven it a lot more!
Leanne always seems to go very well at PI too. She won very well in FF there too one year.

[Bondy]

Going on the percentage theory on longer tracks, my Rotax kart should be good for 2m48s @ the Mount then ;)

[Catalina Park]

If you are using the percentage comparison of a V8 at Bathurst don't forget that the V8s are speed limited down Con-Rod. So in theory they could go faster with a different diff ratio. (But they may also be slower!)

[xbgs351]

How are they speed limited? I thought it was because they had a lot of drag with those big wings.

[Catalina Park]

The engines are rev limited and they have to run a set diff ratio. The combination of both gives a fixed top speed provided the car is fast enough to reach the rev limiter, which they do.

[xbgs351]

When did the set diff ratio come in? The V8Supertaxis where slower than the Group A cars from the very beginning.

[Ray Bell]

I think the diff ratio is predetermined for each circuit...

It's a crazy class all right.

[eldougo]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I think the diff ratio is predetermined for each circuit...

It's a crazy class all right.

__________________________________



Now that is an understatement if ever i heard one. RAY

[racer69]

It would have been around 1998 (at or after SEL came to the party) that the set diff ratios were decreed. In 1996 for instance when it was all free Glen Seton claimed to have cracked 300 on Conrod

Originally posted by xbgs351
When the Chase was first installed the touring cars where only one to two second slower than the previous year.

Better than that, Klaus Ludwig's pole in 1987 with the chase was faster than Gary Scott's pole the year before without it

[Lee Nicolle]

Supercars have a controlled set diff ratio for every track and gearbox ratios are also controlled.
I would suspect that if they were a little shorter in diff ratio they may be faster per lap, by being quicker up the hill and across the top. But may be a little marginal on engines driving a good way down conrod on the limiter.

[KandA]

Originally posted by Bondy
Lee,

The Formula Brabham/Holden Lap record is in the 1m24s iirc.... There are some very fast corners at the Island where i guess a F3 would be much faster than a F5000..... John's time in VesKanda was at a Histroric meet as was Hyde's and Skidmore's times.... Interestingly i think John Briggs in the VesKanda last year was doing 1m33s....

JB's driven it a hell of a lot more. Being full ground effects it's one of those monsters that gives more grip the harder you go, and that takes a hell of a lot of confidence to trust. That said, you must remember that it is historic and has its' original 25/30 year old Magnesium uprights. Even if you X-Rayed them every meeting you'd never know when one might let go! JB did the 28 at PI tippy toeing around. And, it's not fair to get into the but in its' day stuff.
I can remember in the 90's Arthur Abrahams ran a full F3000 before it was F/Holden converted and was timed at 1 min 21.
Interestingly....talking about outright speed, in the early 90's a factory IMSA team (either Nissan or Toyota) were supposed to have hired out Eastern Creek for testing and lapped at 1 min 9. Full boost and 1000 hp full ground effects I guess!!

[Lee Nicolle]

Originally posted by KandA


JB's driven it a hell of a lot more. Being full ground effects it's one of those monsters that gives more grip the harder you go, and that takes a hell of a lot of confidence to trust. That said, you must remember that it is historic and has its' original 25/30 year old Magnesium uprights. Even if you X-Rayed them every meeting you'd never know when one might let go! JB did the 28 at PI tippy toeing around. And, it's not fair to get into the but in its' day stuff.
I can remember in the 90's Arthur Abrahams ran a full F3000 before it was F/Holden converted and was timed at 1 min 21.
Interestingly....talking about outright speed, in the early 90's a factory IMSA team (either Nissan or Toyota) were supposed to have hired out Eastern Creek for testing and lapped at 1 min 9. Full boost and 1000 hp full ground effects I guess!!

I think the Kanda still holds the outright records at a couple of tracks still ?
The problem with remotely modern historic cars is metal fatigue. These items have lives of months [or miles] and all these very quick older cars are now getting too old for the componentry.
I seem to remember the Kanda broke an upright or wheel at AIR when it was first built . The donor 5000 stuff was not up to the chassis.

[Lola5000]

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
I can remember in the mid 90s that a F holden was so different than the 5000. From memory it was Bob Minogue against Chris Hocking. The 5000 was so quick on the straights and about even on the fast corners but the slow stuff the F holden was streets ahead. He was pulling about 10 car lengths into Honda only to lose it up the hill, caught him almost at MG and then the 5000 just marched off again around the top and down to turn 2. At a guess the times would have been similar, but the laps were oh so different. [Bob Won]
I think JB would be faster in the Kanda than Briggsy, he has driven it a lot more!
Leanne always seems to go very well at PI too. She won very well in FF there too one year.

Bob was the better driver he and that Lola at the island just song along.it was early 90s and Chris was in a old car.Will ask Bob as few have drivern both in open racing .Bob in the Lola T430,Lola87/50 Holden and his Reynard .he held the outright record at Mallala in the Lola till the F/Holdens came along.

[KandA]

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle

I think the Kanda still holds the outright records at a couple of tracks still ?
The problem with remotely modern historic cars is metal fatigue. These items have lives of months [or miles] and all these very quick older cars are now getting too old for the componentry.
I seem to remember the Kanda broke an upright or wheel at AIR when it was first built . The donor 5000 stuff was not up to the chassis.

Indeed, in 1984, a rear wheel collapsed at full speed as JB turned into turn 1 at AIR in testing. Initially, K1 had Lola T332 full magseium rear wheels on it, but they obviously couldn't handle the additional loading from ground effects. It ended up in the catch fencing a couple of hundred metres straight ahead from turn 1 with reasonable tub and body damage. Dad (Dale) recalls turn 1 as flat in top gear, about 180 mph. Sort of indicative of the enormity of the failure. Anyhow, this delayed its' race debut until 1985 after substantial repairs and new Simmons wheels.
Lee, your comment about fatigue is one that evokes emotion in me. Some of the potent historics out there carry componentry constructed in materials such as Mg, Al and light guage Cr-Mo that were "delicate" even in their own day, let alone 35 years later. Not to mention the cracked Mag uprights out there with dodgey welding repairs. Anyone remember the Melmag wheels? I assure you the design life of the bonding agent wasn't even half of 35 years! Yet, there are cars out there running originals!
Sometimes I wonder if it is only a matter of time until something catastrophic happens.

[eldougo]

From Drive SMH. Today.
McLaren racer nearly 20 seconds quicker than a V8 Supercar around famous track.

A Formula One car has set a new record at Bathurst – lapping Australia’s world-famous motor racing circuit nearly 20 seconds faster than a V8 Supercar.

The unofficial time of 1 minute 48 seconds was set by 2009 F1 world champion Jenson Button, who was driving the first modern Formula One car to take to the hallowed track.

Button’s time, set in a 2008 McLaren, surpasses the previous fastest time clocked by a V8 Supercar, a 2min 6sec achieved by Craig Lowndes last year in a Holden Commodore.

Advertisement: Story continues below
Five-times Bathurst winner Lowndes was only a second slower than the Briton when given his first taste of a Formula One car as part of a special driver-swap event run by Vodafone, the title sponsor for both Button’s McLaren team and Lowndes’ V8 Supercar outfit.

When they swapped to the Commodore V8 Supercar, Lowndes was six seconds faster than Button: 2min 11sec versus 2min 17sec.

Lowndes says the F1 car is impressive compared with a V8 Supercar, and admits it could have gone quicker.

“When I first went out it was the acceleration [that amazed me] but when you go through turn two you really realise how much acceleration you have,” he says. “In comparison the V8 [Supercar] seems to labour up the mountain. "Potentially it could go a lot quicker but realistically I've been told to bring it back in one piece."

Lowndes says he relished the chance to drive the car, admitting he’s not expecting a call from a Formula One team.

“No, it’s about 14 years too late [to get a chance in F1] but it’s extremely satisfying to drive a car that’s purpose built for speed and precision. It was a rush of a feeling.”

Jenson Button suggested the idea of running an F1 car around Bathurst, but says the circuit’s undulating nature wasn’t without its challenges.

“I could hardly turn the wheel coming into the turn [for Conrod Straight] and it was a bit scary down the straight with it being so bumpy,” says Button. “The bit I really enjoyed was from about turn five onwards as you start going up the hill. That section was a real buzz.

“This is an iconic race track and it’s great to celebrate the unofficial fastest lap in an F1 car.”

Edited by eldougo, 22 March 2011 - 07:31.

[flightlessbird]

From personal observation today the McLaren seemed very Quick

[brucemoxon]

F3 person who's in the know told me that an F3 car should lap in about 1m58s in qualifying trim and 2m02s in a race.

This was arrived at by computer simulation.

And Button and Lowndes were both smooth and fast in the McLaren. The car was severely compromised in setup - high drag, high suspension settings, only a few laps to get a feel.

Bloody brilliant to be there.





BM

[eldougo]

You could see the ride height was way up to stop dragging the bottom on the road.It looked so strange to see a real car on a real track.

[chrissy]

90% of 2:08 is 1:55.


FORMULA 4000 SIMON WILLS REYNARD 94D 13/02/2000 1.24.2215
FORMULA 3 LEANNE TANDER DALLARA F307 MB 15/06/2008 1.26.9031
V8 SUPERCARS CRAIG LOWNDES COMMODORE VT 16/05/1999 1.33.4389
P(F 5000) CHRIS HYDE LEDA GM1 9/03/2008 1.30.1205

Hyde was 5.6 second faster than the top V8 touring cars around Albert Park last year... and at PI recorded 204mph at the end of the straight.... imagin what he could do at Bathurst!!?

[Chris Frizell]

I have to say that the Kanda amazed me, as it does every year at PI, with its complete domination of the weekend. Now when you put the previous comments into perspective about Bowe being quicker than Briggs, and that Briggs takes it "easy" at historic meetings, then that is even more amazing. To see that thing eating alive some very potent world class racing machinery and knowing that the driver is just "taking it easy" is staggering. What a car....and one that never really received the fame that it deserved on a World wide scale...