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The McLaren M23 and M26


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#1 PeterElleray

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 11:50

Originally posted by macoran on 'The cutaway drawing and its artists' thread

A stand alone tech thread on these models,.....or will it be merged with
1974 McLaren M23
1977 McLaren M23
McLaren M26
Trimmer M23
de Villota M23
??


Ref the M26 and the 'bollock cooler' in the floor - yes i spotted that too and would like to know a little more, but i think what Marc is refering to is the plain unducted nose - oil coolers at the rear - in the cutaways. i am sure that he is right, and the the m26 made its debut in holland in 1976 in this format, and that it also appeared in this guise at the kyalami tests in early 1977. it was after James had his accident there in the prototype m26-1 that it was rebuilt in front oil rad format and reappeared at the british gp. chassis 2, which james ran in the spanish gp, was in the original format there, but appeared at the belgian gp - having not been taken to monaco in between - with the first front oil rad - the cars definative trim.

incidentally, can anyone think of a contempoary car to the m26 that took a full calender year to 'come good'? i was once told, by someone who was there but may not have had the full story, that there breakthrough came when the ride height was dropped by a massive amount allround and the car stiffened - looking at the razor edged side pontoons and the flexible skirts that grew from them about this time, i can only think that the car suddenly gained significant downforce along the 'blat' principle we have discussed here before...?

over to the rest of you , i will post some of my recent shots from tgp , up close and personal, as soon as time permits.

peter

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#2 Bonde

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 23:25

Well, I caught the bait!

This picture from Keith Noakes' 'Build to win' shows how the sandwich panels around the fuel bags halted the deformation of the front of the M26 chassis when hunt tripped over Mass in Canada in 77. It's remarkable that Hunt was able to walk away (and, less remarkably, in red mist floor a marshall in the process). Hunt eloquently described the car after the accident: "It turned left at the dashboard".

Posted Image

One of the challenges with crashing sheet aluminium tubs is that although the deformation does absorb a lot of energy, survival space for the occupant is often severely compromised, and frequently actually aggavated by fabricated steel bulkheads remaining relatively intact, trapping the driver's legs. In this case the sandwich panels graphically demonstate their far superior performance in compression compared with thin sheet of similar mass per square metre.

Irrelevant really, but I always thought the M23 looked its elegant best in its original 1973 guise, and IMO the M26 looks big and rather 'messy' in comparison, especially with the oilcooler in the nose. It looks to me as if the driver sat a lot more upright in M26, which is perhaps what makes it appear bulky compared with M23 - a concession to Hunt's relatively lofty frame, perhaps?

I'm still trying to get my head around how the two tubs went together and which bits were sheet alloy and which were sandwich and/or GRP - I feel a sketch may eventually be coming along...

#3 Der Pate

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 09:56

I just noticed, that the McLaren M23 drove from 1973 to 1978...unbelieveable...a car, which raced over 5 years in F1...was that car so superior, that it could hold pace over these years...???

The next car the M26 only drove the 1978-season...

#4 Tim Murray

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 10:11

Not quite correct. Hunt raced nothing but the M26 from Spain 1977 onward, and won 3 GPs in 1977 with it. From Germany 1977 onward only the privateers continued to race the M23.

#5 David McKinney

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 10:36

Originally posted by Der Pate
Iunbelieveable...a car, which raced over 5 years in F1

Unbelievable in the 21st century, but not then
The Maserati 250F career stretched over seven seasons, and I'm sure a bit of digging would establish that four-cylinder Gordinis lasted even longer

#6 Tim Murray

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 10:44

The career of the Lotus 72 also spanned six seasons 1970-75, and it was still the works front-line contender at the end of 1975.

#7 fines

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 13:49

... and we don't want to go into detail of Indy and Champ Cars here, do we?;)

#8 David McKinney

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 13:51

No, 'cos the man said F1

Broaden the scope any further and we'll have Ray Bell dragging in his Regal again :lol:

#9 alansart

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 14:05

Originally posted by Tim Murray
Not quite correct. Hunt raced nothing but the M26 from Spain 1977 onward, and won 3 GPs in 1977 with it. From Germany 1977 onward only the privateers continued to race the M23.


A works M23 was used with great effect by a young French Canadian at the British GP at Silverstone in 1977 - and boy didn't he throw it around :clap:

Possibly the M23's swansong.

#10 fines

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 14:38

Aren't you forgetting a three time World Champion?;)

#11 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 15:07

Originally posted by Bonde

Posted Image

I always thought the M23 looked its elegant best in its original 1973 guise, and IMO the M26 looks big and rather 'messy' in comparison, especially with the oilcooler in the nose.


Holy moly, I hadn't realised the tub was in such a state. James was indeed very lucky to step out of this one, albeit minus one of his boots ! I don't for one moment condone flooring innocent marshalls, but I guess the shock of this impact was enough to make anyone less than rational for a moment...

Your other point about the striking visual difference between M23 and M26 ; when we look back now the variation in F1 design around this time was astonishing, probably greater than at any point in history - and a great many around the same makes of engine and gearbox. If only we had such individuality in modern F1 instead of 20+ identikits year after year!

#12 alansart

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 15:13

Originally posted by fines
Aren't you forgetting a three time World Champion?;)


Piquet - forgot about him - whoops :)

#13 Phil Rainford

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 15:14



Hunt minus his boot (Canada 1977)

PAR

#14 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 15:27

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks


Holy moly, I hadn't realised the tub was in such a state. James was indeed very lucky to step out of this one, albeit minus one of his boots ! I don't for one moment condone flooring innocent marshalls, but I guess the shock of this impact was enough to make anyone less than rational for a moment...


I tell you, Mosport is a blimmin' scary place, even today - no wonder it did so much damage. I first went there in 2006 with Penske Porsche, and I called up my old man to tell him that even though he hadn't been there for 40 years, it must not have changed at all in the meantime.

Nigel

#15 PeterElleray

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 19:26

Originally posted by Tim Murray
Not quite correct. Hunt raced nothing but the M26 from Spain 1977 onward, and won 3 GPs in 1977 with it. From Germany 1977 onward only the privateers continued to race the M23.



... except at Monaco, the next race after Spain, where both James and Jochen drove M23's... James' M26 being refettled to front oil cooler spec for the following Belgian GP (this was on the other thread we/I hijacked so i'll repeat it here!).

As i commented there, the M26's career got off to a most disjointed start - only to become (arguably) the fastest and most consistent car in the second half of 1977 - Lotus 78 included...

Have we got an answer on James' bollock cooling duct yet btw?

Peter

#16 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 19:29

Originally posted by PeterElleray


Have we got an answer on James' bollock cooling duct yet btw?

Peter


Can't help, I'm afraid.

Nigel

#17 PeterElleray

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 19:32

Nigel - ref the m26 and the honeycomb panels. it looks like there were two distinct types - the former 'bodywork' around the cockpit, which i am assuming is nomex cored with glasscloth (?) skins, and the fuel cell compartments, which look to be ally skins over ally h/c - is that right? the bodywork i assume was tooled in the traditional way, wood and plaster/filler etc. but were the chassis panels taken from regular 8x4 prebonded flat sheets, or did your father and his team make and bond them in house from ally sheet and core? it looks on some of Tony's shots like that may be the case? if so, inserts?, method of bonding, pressure/vacuum etc? do you know the story?

rgds

Peter

#18 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 19:40

Originally posted by PeterElleray
Nigel - ref the m26 and the honeycomb panels. it looks like there were two distinct types - the former 'bodywork' around the cockpit, which i am assuming is nomex cored with glasscloth (?) skins, and the fuel cell compartments, which look to be ally skins over ally h/c - is that right? the bodywork i assume was tooled in the traditional way, wood and plaster/filler etc. but were the chassis panels taken from regular 8x4 prebonded flat sheets, or did your father and his team make and bond them in house from ally sheet and core? it looks on some of Tony's shots like that may be the case? if so, inserts?, method of bonding, pressure/vacuum etc? do you know the story?

rgds

Peter


You are right, as far as I recall. The cockpit sides (i.e the parts with "Marlboro" on them) were nomex cored glass, whilst as you say they laminated the structural elements of the chassis themselves. They had a big oven for curing. I know he messed about a lot with different adhesives etc and worked closely with people like Ciba-Geigy but I couldn't tell you what they were. I can't remember what the scuttle was made of for sure. Everything was consolidated with a vacuum pump - no autoclave at that time.

Thanks

Nigel

#19 Tim Murray

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 19:51

Originally posted by PeterElleray
... except at Monaco, the next race after Spain, where both James and Jochen drove M23's...

You're quite right. :blush: Just goes to show that even Mr Nye makes the odd mistake (I took my info, without checking it, from the appendix in his McLaren book).

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#20 PeterElleray

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 19:54

Originally posted by Phil Rainford


Hunt minus his boot (Canada 1977)

PAR


Glad this has come up. You know, the contemporary press crucified James for this, and i dont seek to justify his action, but because he is such a fascinating personality, to understand what made him tick... when you watch the video you can see what its about - invasion of personal space at the worst possible moment.... there is another similar clip from monaco, in , i think 1975, where James' Hesketh is stuffed into the barriers by - unbelievably - team mate to be Jochen Mass in his M23, a sort of dress rehearsal for the Canadian coming together but at a much lower speed... in this prequel, James again extracts himself from a steaming crumpled wreck only to be confronted by a zealous (French?) marshal, who grabs him and tries to shove him out of what he obviously sees as a dangerous position - and it so nearly happens again! this time James just stops himself.

Ive seen similar close shaves with other drivers during the course of well intentioned, but perhaps rather heavy handed assistance, both from this era and more recently, but Mosport is the only time i can recall such a high profile figure actually not quite manage to restrain himself.. James is so contrite afterwards - the marshall, who now seem somewhat wary of James approaching him(!) finally seems to accept James profuse apologies and the incident ends with James' arm around him! So, considering that within the space of 60 seconds James has a) Been taken out by his own team mate b) The most serious accident of his GP career at high speed (130mph?) c) lost a certain victory in the GP and perhaps we can get some idea of his state of mind when finally d) he decks the bloke for trying to do his job.

I think it then cost James a few thousand dollars later that afternoon...

Peter

Edit: Just watched the monaco incident again - i have to admit that whilst i took the description above from Peter Lyon's Autosport report, and that whilst Jochen is definately 'there' it actually looks to my eye , from the brief glimpse we get, like the actual 'assistance' finally came from Jame's 'good friend' Patrick Depaillier - which would make it a dress rehearsal for Long Beach in 1976, rather than Mosport 1977.. Ho hum...

#21 PeterElleray

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 19:56

Originally posted by Nigel Beresford


You are right, as far as I recall. The cockpit sides (i.e the parts with "Marlboro" on them) were nomex cored glass, whilst as you say they laminated the structural elements of the chassis themselves. They had a big oven for curing. I know he messed about a lot with different adhesives etc and worked closely with people like Ciba-Geigy but I couldn't tell you what they were. I can't remember what the scuttle was made of for sure. Everything was consolidated with a vacuum pump - no autoclave at that time.

Thanks

Nigel


Pretty high tech for F1 in 1976/77 then - and it worked, but I guess it then all went horribly wrong with the m28...

#22 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 20:25

Originally posted by PeterElleray


Glad this has come up. You know, the contemporary press crucified James for this, and i dont seek to justify his action, but because he is such a fascinating personality, to understand what made him tick... when you watch the video you can see what its about - invasion of personal space at the worst possible moment.... there is another similar clip from monaco, in , i think 1975, where James' Hesketh is stuffed into the barriers by - unbelievably - team mate to be Jochen Mass in his M23, a sort of dress rehearsal for the Canadian coming together but at a much lower speed... in this prequel, James again extracts himself from a steaming crumpled wreck only to be confronted by a zealous (French?) marshal, who grabs him and tries to shove him out of what he obviously sees as a dangerous position - and it so nearly happens again! this time James just stops himself.

Ive seen similar close shaves with other drivers during the course of well intentioned, but perhaps rather heavy handed assistance, both from this era and more recently, but Mosport is the only time i can recall such a high profile figure actually not quite manage to restrain himself.. James is so contrite afterwards - the marshall, who now seem somewhat wary of James approaching him(!) finally seems to accept James profuse apologies and the incident ends with James' arm around him! So, considering that within the space of 60 seconds James has a) Been taken out by his own team mate b) The most serious accident of his GP career at high speed (130mph?) c) lost a certain victory in the GP and perhaps we can get some idea of his state of mind when finally d) he decks the bloke for trying to do his job.

I think it then cost James a few thousand dollars later that afternoon...

Peter

Edit: Just watched the monaco incident again - i have to admit that whilst i took the description above from Peter Lyon's Autosport report, and that whilst Jochen is definately 'there' it actually looks to my eye , from the brief glimpse we get, like the actual 'assistance' finally came from Jame's 'good friend' Patrick Depaillier - which would make it a dress rehearsal for Long Beach in 1976, rather than Mosport 1977.. Ho hum...


Don't forget the infamous Dave Morgan thump too (at Crystal Palace?)

Nigel

#23 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 20:27

Originally posted by PeterElleray


Pretty high tech for F1 in 1976/77 then - and it worked, but I guess it then all went horribly wrong with the m28...


Indeed, I don't know what they were thinking!

#24 PeterElleray

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 21:34

Originally posted by Nigel Beresford


Don't forget the infamous Dave Morgan thump too (at Crystal Palace?)

Nigel


Indeed! But actually that one is the exception that proves the rule i think. seem to remember James marching purposefully up to David and clocking him one (from behind?) , no problems with invasion of space there! The various assaults on local race officials which seem to have become a bit of a theme all seem to follow a different pattern. What was the expression someone used (was it Doug?) -'wound up like a watch spring?' - full of nervous energy... But at his best - one hell of a Grand Prix driver.

#25 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 22:14

Originally posted by PeterElleray
'wound up like a watch spring?' - full of nervous energy... But at his best - one hell of a Grand Prix driver.

Most definitely, and I reckon he has always been under-rated because of the playboy image and the abrupt retirement.

#26 Charles E Taylor

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 22:33

Mclaren M26


If I remember correctly (I don’t usually) and you look closely, I think you may find that the M26 was the first F1 car to use Kevlar extensively.

Check out the cockpit bodywork in detail.

For the bollock cooler this was not the only example of the use of the underside NACA type cooler in F1 in the 70's.

It is also interesting to speculate on the advantage McLaren gained by using the Nicholson developed DFV.

For the latter part of 76 and 77 these engines used a compression ratio that was higher than the standard Cosworth units among other mods. It was this and the use of special Texaco fuel that caused the fiasco at Monza where Mr James was sent to the back of the grid for using “illegal” fuel.

Halfway through the year Lotus obtained 3 of these units for Andretti’s use, one was run on Cosworth’s dyno.- It was this that caused the start of the Cosworth DFV development programme for 1978.





Charlie

#27 PeterElleray

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 22:45

Charlie - m26 cockpit side panels - source build to win (Noakes).

Posted Image

is it true that the original plan was for these to be fully structural - till James objected?

peter

#28 Twin Window

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 23:00

Originally posted by PeterElleray

Glad this has come up.

So am I, as I've never seen that footage before.

To my mind it totally dispels the rationale behind the furore which erupted at the time with regard to James' actions; he clearly realised what he'd done was wrong and made his apologies to the corner-worker in question pretty much straight away.

And, I might add, he did so in a far more evident manner than others may have done since under similar circumstances...

#29 Bonde

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 23:02

I know it's slightly off topic, but judging from this clip it seems to me that Depailler had already won the corner and James decided to sit it out with him on the outside (something he later critisized Andretti for doing at Zaandvoort in 77). I don't see Patrick doing anything other than sticking to his line, and Hunt then endangering himself and others by staying out on the track on foot.

Back on topic: It's interesting to see in M26 how the traditional use of fabricated steel bulkheads was combined with honeycomb sandwich panels - it wouldn't be long before integrally machined aluminium alloy bulkheads became commonplace, thus closer reflecting contemporary aerospace practise. Who was actually the first to use integrally machined main bulkheads - Murray on the BT48?

On the M26, it appears in some pictures that the scuttle fairing is riveted to the top of the tub in a structural capacity, whereas in others it appears to be bolted on with widely spaced bolts; on Hunt's Mosport wreck the scuttle fairing is removed. When and why the change of heart? To improve access to pedals and steering?

The more I look at M26, the more it appeals to me both visually and technically - especially in its earliest rear mounted oil cooler form.

ETA: I just came across this - another, much more recent M26 unintentional crash test. What chassis was this and how badly was it damaged?

#30 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 10:12

Originally posted by Charles E Taylor
Mclaren M26


If I remember correctly (I don’t usually) and you look closely, I think you may find that the M26 was the first F1 car to use Kevlar extensively.

Check out the cockpit bodywork in detail.

For the bollock cooler this was not the only example of the use of the underside NACA type cooler in F1 in the 70's.

It is also interesting to speculate on the advantage McLaren gained by using the Nicholson developed DFV.

For the latter part of 76 and 77 these engines used a compression ratio that was higher than the standard Cosworth units among other mods. It was this and the use of special Texaco fuel that caused the fiasco at Monza where Mr James was sent to the back of the grid for using “illegal” fuel.

Halfway through the year Lotus obtained 3 of these units for Andretti’s use, one was run on Cosworth’s dyno.- It was this that caused the start of the Cosworth DFV development programme for 1978.

Charlie


They first got in to kevlar susbtantially when the bodywork of the M23 was remade in it as part of the rework of the car for the 1976 season. I realise now that I remembered wrongly on the M26 too - the cockpit sides were indeed kevlar with nomex core, not glass.

Nigel

#31 gablet

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 10:43

Hi all!
First of all I have to apologize if this post is out of topic but since this is a technical thread about the M23 I thought I could find somebody that can answer to my question.
Does anybody know if the M23 had an automatic fire extinguishing system and, most important for me, Is this the thermocouple used to switch on extinguishers?
http://img527.images...image=scan3.jpg
The same device was used even on the Tyrrell P34s ('76 & '77) and Shadow DN5B so I think it was a standard device.
Could please anyone confirm?
Many thanks to you all and sorry again for being off topic!
Gabriele

#32 PeterElleray

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 11:27

Originally posted by Twin Window

So am I, as I've never seen that footage before.

To my mind it totally dispels the rationale behind the furore which erupted at the time with regard to James' actions; he clearly realised what he'd done was wrong and made his apologies to the corner-worker in question pretty much straight away.

And, I might add, he did so in a far more evident manner than others may have done since under similar circumstances...


Spot On!

#33 PeterElleray

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 11:42

Originally posted by Bonde

I know it's slightly off topic, but judging from this clip it seems to me that Depailler had already won the corner and James decided to sit it out with him on the outside (something he later critisized Andretti for doing at Zaandvoort in 77). I don't see Patrick doing anything other than sticking to his line, and Hunt then endangering himself and others by staying out on the track on foot.


Anders - same clip i viewed after my original post and the reason i edited the end of it - same conclusion that you draw - but i wonder what might have happened between Jochen and James just before the camera picks it up. james had run behind joches ince their tyre stops - lap 19. looking at my autocar report - 'Mass got very out of shape going into casiono square on lap 64. hunt slowed down in sympathy...', motoring news makes no refernce to mass and reports depailler coming up alongside james on lap 64 at tip top. what we need is a copy of motor for may 17th 1975, with James own column in it, telling his own version...

peter

#34 PeterElleray

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 11:51

Originally posted by Bonde


Back on topic: It's interesting to see in M26 how the traditional use of fabricated steel bulkheads was combined with honeycomb sandwich panels - it wouldn't be long before integrally machined aluminium alloy bulkheads became commonplace, thus closer reflecting contemporary aerospace practise. Who was actually the first to use integrally machined main bulkheads - Murray on the BT48?

On the M26, it appears in some pictures that the scuttle fairing is riveted to the top of the tub in a structural capacity, whereas in others it appears to be bolted on with widely spaced bolts; on Hunt's Mosport wreck the scuttle fairing is removed. When and why the change of heart? To improve access to pedals and steering?

The more I look at M26, the more it appeals to me both visually and technically - especially in its earliest rear mounted oil cooler form.



Agreed - when the car was announced just after the 76 british gp i thought it looked really superb - crisp, agressive.. as it developed it did get a little bitty - but also very fast! i think also it was up against the m23 for a long overlapping period - and the m23 always looked good to my eye. as you said in an earlier post, never more so than in its earliest Yardley colours and format.

dont really understand the philospophy with the skuttle or the cockpit sides - they dont appear to be structurally fixed to the tub and so are they just 'thick bodywork' ? - as i said earlier, i do recall reading of driver resistance to the non removable cockpit sections. perhaps someone can tell us more. - wonder what james' reaction was when he saw the 1979 wolf for the first time...?

peter

#35 Tim Murray

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 17:25

Originally posted by PeterElleray
Anders - same clip i viewed after my original post and the reason i edited the end of it - same conclusion that you draw - but i wonder what might have happened between Jochen and James just before the camera picks it up. james had run behind joches ince their tyre stops - lap 19. looking at my autocar report - 'Mass got very out of shape going into casiono square on lap 64. hunt slowed down in sympathy...', motoring news makes no refernce to mass and reports depailler coming up alongside james on lap 64 at tip top. what we need is a copy of motor for may 17th 1975, with James own column in it, telling his own version...

The report of the incident by Pete Lyons in Autosport:

Ahead [of Depailler] was a stern tussle involving Peterson, Mass and Hunt, all looking equal, all staying nose to tail. Gradually the Tyrrell crept closer to them, and not long before the end was with them. The pressure grew; into the Mirabeau Hunt was right with Mass and trying to get by, but the McLaren was on the inside and the Hesketh went off "crunch" into the barrier. Jochen, who had initiated the move by getting sideways at the Casino, came over and apologised to James later - he could see that he ought to apologise from the way he was seeing a shaking fist at Mirabeau every lap through.

Presumably Mass thought Hunt was shaking his fist at him, when he was really shaking it at Depailler. Or was there more to it ...

#36 PeterElleray

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 17:51

Originally posted by Tim Murray
The report of the incident by Pete Lyons in Autosport:

Presumably Mass thought Hunt was shaking his fist at him, when he was really shaking it at Depailler. Or was there more to it ...


tim - yes that was the first report i refered to, then i watched the you tube video clip - i will have to watch the full race video from french tv when i have time and see if anything comes to light.

peter

#37 MonzaDriver

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 17:58

Originally posted by PeterElleray


Anders - same clip i viewed after my original post and the reason i edited the end of it - same conclusion that you draw - but i wonder what might have happened between Jochen and James just before the camera picks it up. james had run behind joches ince their tyre stops - lap 19. looking at my autocar report - 'Mass got very out of shape going into casiono square on lap 64. hunt slowed down in sympathy...', motoring news makes no refernce to mass and reports depailler coming up alongside james on lap 64 at tip top. what we need is a copy of motor for may 17th 1975, with James own column in it, telling his own version...

peter



Dear Peter and Bonde, I am sorry but I completly disagree with both of you.
It was Depailler that in a very sly manner " invite" Hunt to kiss the armco.

Look how far from the curb is, and how deep is into the corner Depailler, before he decide to steer the car toward the bend. The entry point of this bend is way before, more or less where Hunt try to steer his F1, but at this moment Depailler go straigth ahead, instead of research the inside line.

I think every one would go mad,in throwing away a Monaco Gp in this manner.
Ciao to all.

MonzaDriver.

#38 PeterElleray

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 18:15

Originally posted by MonzaDriver



Dear Peter and Bonde, I am sorry but I completly disagree with both of you.
It was Depailler that in a very sly manner " invite" Hunt to kiss the armco.

Look how far from the curb is, and how deep is into the corner Depailler, before he decide to steer the car toward the bend. The entry point of this bend is way before, more or less where Hunt try to steer his F1, but at this moment Depailler go straigth ahead, instead of research the inside line.

I think every one would go mad,in throwing away a Monaco Gp in this manner.
Ciao to all.

MonzaDriver.


hmmm.. well the only bloke left who had a granstand seat is Jochen - and the first he probably saw or knew of it was James waving his fist at him astride a steaming, smoking crumpled hesketh a lap later..

much as i like the idea of james being invited to kiss the armco, and taking onboard your comments about Patrick taking quite a wide entry to the corner i think the sequence of events is as follows (and this is from assembling the various reports quoted). on the previous lap the order is Mass, Hunt, Depaillier. Just before the camera picks the incident up, Jochen gets out of shape at casino, slowing James. Depaillier then sees an opportunity, and goes down the inside - but he is quite wide on the entry. James isnt having any of that and it looks like he ends up outbraking himself off line. I dont think that was a sly maneouvre by patrick, but probably an opportunistic and rather late one. not for the last time James 'racer' instinct got the better of him when pitted against another racer.. and i am a big fan of Hunt btw..

in all probablility James was shaking his fist at the pair of them for the next few laps!

peter

#39 fines

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 19:07

My impression is that Depailler was on the racing line, there was no contact, Hunt outbraked himself, and the fist was clearly for Patrick! Jochen, being a decent guy, probably just thought "Oops, I got crossed up and James went into the armco, I better go and apologise!" There was nothing anybody other than James could have done to prevent the accident, he should've been upset with himself - and probably was!;)

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#40 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 21:02

Originally posted by PeterElleray



Agreed - when the car was announced just after the 76 british gp i thought it looked really superb - crisp, agressive.. as it developed it did get a little bitty - but also very fast! i think also it was up against the m23 for a long overlapping period - and the m23 always looked good to my eye. as you said in an earlier post, never more so than in its earliest Yardley colours and format.

dont really understand the philospophy with the skuttle or the cockpit sides - they dont appear to be structurally fixed to the tub and so are they just 'thick bodywork' ? - as i said earlier, i do recall reading of driver resistance to the non removable cockpit sections. perhaps someone can tell us more. - wonder what james' reaction was when he saw the 1979 wolf for the first time...?

peter


I don't recall the M26 scuttle being removable (I'm happy to be disabused of the notion). The picture of the Mosport crash tub on the forum shows a tub that has been stripped of roll hoop, dash and so forth, so presumably the crushed scuttle was also pulled off. All of the pictures of the M26 I can find show a clear line of rivets along the base of the scuttle, and as I say I can't remember it being removable from my recollections of hanging around the factory. The cockpit sides were very light mouldings - I certainly remember that.

Thanks

Nigel

#41 Bonde

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 21:48

Nigel,

I think it's me spouting nonsense - having looked again, I can only find photos with the scuttle fairing being riveted on. My apologies. Maybe my memory confused me, expecting to see a scuttle fairing on Hunt's Mosport tub.

#42 stevewf1

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 22:10

Originally posted by Tim Murray
The career of the Lotus 72 also spanned six seasons 1970-75, and it was still the works front-line contender at the end of 1975.


Something I've always been curious about is that (at least from most sources I've seen), the Lotus 72 raced under several Chassis Type "modifications". By that, I mean there was a Lotus 72 then over the years, there was a 72B, 72C, 72D and so on. That never seemed to happen with the M23. It was always just "M23". Did McLaren choose not to indicate any updates with the Chassis Type designation the way Lotus did?

#43 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 22:16

Originally posted by stevewf1


Something I've always been curious about is that (at least from most sources I've seen), the Lotus 72 raced under several Chassis Type "modifications". By that, I mean there was a Lotus 72 then over the years, there was a 72B, 72C, 72D and so on. That never seemed to happen with the M23. It was always just "M23". Did McLaren choose not to indicate any updates with the Chassis Type designation the way Lotus did?


They had done previously, with say, the M8A through F and M16A through E, but by the time the M20 came along they seemed to have dropped it. The last car they seemed to bother with was the M19A and M19C (I don't know what an M19B was...). Considering the huge development undertaken on the M23 this was strange.

Nigel

#44 PeterElleray

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 23:19

Originally posted by Nigel Beresford


I don't recall the M26 scuttle being removable (I'm happy to be disabused of the notion). The picture of the Mosport crash tub on the forum shows a tub that has been stripped of roll hoop, dash and so forth, so presumably the crushed scuttle was also pulled off. All of the pictures of the M26 I can find show a clear line of rivets along the base of the scuttle, and as I say I can't remember it being removable from my recollections of hanging around the factory. The cockpit sides were very light mouldings - I certainly remember that.

Thanks

Nigel


Nigel - are we talking about the same part here? the m26 looks to have an inner 'skuttle', which is part of the aluminium structure and can be clearly seen in the posted shots and also cutaways and is definately riveted to the main tub, and then there is the comosite 'lid', painted in marlboro red and carrying the front part of the screen, which is confusing me and , i think, Anders - is this part bolted/riveted and structural, or is it more readily removable and non structural?

on another point, id love to do a torsion test on the m26 tub and see how linear it is where the ally 'footbox' and forward side pontoons transition into the honeycomb boxes... makes you wonder looking at the crashed one...

peter

#45 PeterElleray

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 23:28

not one of mine, from the web, so i hope i dont offend anyone by posting it, but this is the best shot i have of the outer skuttle, clearly riveted on here (in tgp).

peter

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#46 Bonde

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 23:58

That's the strange thing - although it's clearly riveted on along the sides and at the front, the back end of the 'box' at the dashboard is open and apparently doesn't tie in much with the roll hoop and bulkhead there, basically negating any contribution to overall stiffness of the chassis it might have delivered. Maybe it's a legacy of an intention on Coppuck's part to make the entire cockpit coaming structural? As it is, I find it a slightly odd mix of a bit of this and not much of the other.

Peter,

There are a lot of old chassis I'd like to torsion test - I think some may be stiffer than first appearances suggest (others vice versa...)

#47 fines

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 08:00

Originally posted by stevewf1


Something I've always been curious about is that (at least from most sources I've seen), the Lotus 72 raced under several Chassis Type "modifications". By that, I mean there was a Lotus 72 then over the years, there was a 72B, 72C, 72D and so on. That never seemed to happen with the M23. It was always just "M23". Did McLaren choose not to indicate any updates with the Chassis Type designation the way Lotus did?

I believe they did, but it wasn't used much, certainly not by the press. I have seen designations from M23A to M23F in literature, and they tied pretty much in with the year of build.

#48 PeterElleray

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 10:40

Originally posted by Bonde
That's the strange thing - although it's clearly riveted on along the sides and at the front, the back end of the 'box' at the dashboard is open and apparently doesn't tie in much with the roll hoop and bulkhead there, basically negating any contribution to overall stiffness of the chassis it might have delivered. Maybe it's a legacy of an intention on Coppuck's part to make the entire cockpit coaming structural? As it is, I find it a slightly odd mix of a bit of this and not much of the other.

Peter,

There are a lot of old chassis I'd like to torsion test - I think some may be stiffer than first appearances suggest (others vice versa...)


Anders - i have the same thoughts and at the moment draw the same conclusion - i wonder if, by the standards of the day, it might also have made life difficult for the mechanics ? i have seen a contemporary picture of the chassis without the outer part, and not after a shunt, but i cant locate it, suggesting that on that particular tub , at that time, it may not have been riveted in place - i will keep looking.

Peter

#49 MonzaDriver

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 10:44

Originally posted by fines
My impression is that Depailler was on the racing line, there was no contact, Hunt outbraked himself, and the fist was clearly for Patrick! Jochen, being a decent guy, probably just thought "Oops, I got crossed up and James went into the armco, I better go and apologise!" There was nothing anybody other than James could have done to prevent the accident, he should've been upset with himself - and probably was!;)



Sorry Fines,
but you have to watch the footage with more attention,
Depailler was far from the curb, when he turn in, and clearly out of the inside line,
about James outbraked himself, is not in that way, they were both on the limit, and in this condition the balance of the car is very delicate. For this reason I judge the attitude of Depailler very sly, he choose a delicate moment for this " manouvra"
About the attitude after the shunt, obviously the way James react to the marshall is totally wrong,
about the fist to Depailler, he deserve it.
Ciao.

MonzaDriver.

#50 PeterElleray

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 15:23

Originally posted by MonzaDriver



Sorry Fines,
but you have to watch the footage with more attention,
Depailler was far from the curb, when he turn in, and clearly out of the inside line,
about James outbraked himself, is not in that way, they were both on the limit, and in this condition the balance of the car is very delicate. For this reason I judge the attitude of Depailler very sly, he choose a delicate moment for this " manouvra"
About the attitude after the shunt, obviously the way James react to the marshall is totally wrong,
about the fist to Depailler, he deserve it.
Ciao.

MonzaDriver.


Ref the earlier post, Patrick appears to have taken advantage of James having to slow when Mass had a moment at Casino - as he ought to be doing, thats what he's paid for by Ken Tyrrell (!) - and is on the inside line, albeit some way from the kerb.. James appears to 'sit it out' with him, offline, on the dirt, and as far as i can see, he does outbrake himself as a result... James would have known far better than any of us how delicate a position he was placing himself in. Patrick doesnt drive James off the road, how, apart from braking to let James back through was he supposed to give the Hesketh an alternative? The options lay with James, and it didnt come off...

Peter