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Fred J. Wagner, race starter


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#1 Mark Dill

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 19:54

I'd like to gather more information on Fred J. Wagner.

To be clear, I have some good information of Fred Wagner, especially his early career. I even have a copy of his memoir available for download (free, no charge) on my Web site, www.firstsuperspeedway.com. He was the dean of all starters in the early days, easily the AAA's premier starter from 1903 into the 1920's. He started all the William K. Vanderbilt Jr. Cup races except 1904, he started all the American Grand Prize races and the first two Indy 500s. He also started the early Ormond-Daytona Beach races and time trials. What I'd like to know more about is the latter part of his life. When did he retire and why? When did he pass away and how? What were significant events of his career beyond the three races I mentioned?

Thanks for any help someone with more knowledge can provide.

Edited by Mark Dill, 26 March 2013 - 10:47.


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#2 ReWind

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 20:13

He was injured when Bryan Saulpaugh crashed to his death at Oakland on April 22, 1933 and died of complications from that accident on November 13, 1933.

In 1991 he was inducted in the National Sprint Car Hall of Fame. Click on his name here to learn more.

#3 Doug Nye

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 20:46

Hmm - was it Saulpaugh's non-fatal 1932 crash into the judges' stand at Oakland which injured Wagner? Just a thought.

DCN

#4 fines

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 20:56

Doug is right, Wagner was injured on January 1 in 1932, when Bryan Saulpaugh crashed into the starter's stand at Oakland during the running of the final 1931 event, postponed from December 13. As Saulpaugh died driving the same car (De Paolo/Miller) on the same track, the confusion is understandable.

Wagner had been in bad health for some time, and his duties had been taken over by others during much of 1931 already. I don't recall the particulars, though, maybe I'll find something, but not today :yawn:, too late! I'm not sure his death had much to do with the Saulpaugh incident, as it happened almost two years later. And I have the date as November 5, and I'm pretty confident of it since I must have had it from a newspaper report!;) Will check on that tomorrow, too.

(edited grammar... :rolleyes: )

#5 ReWind

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 21:03

I stand corrected. I relied on SprintCarHoF because I thought they would know their stuff. :|

#6 fines

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 21:25

Yes, it's a shame. Some of those NSCHoF articles (especially the early ones) are pretty much useless, bunk really. Other stuff is excellent, written by real experts (like Donald Davidson). :

#7 fines

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 10:48

Los Angeles Times, January 13, 1931:

FRED WAGNER RALLIES IN FIGHT FOR HEALTH
Fred Wagner, veteran race starter, who was stricken at his home in Covina a week ago, was slightly improved yesterday, it was announced. The Danger of pneumonia has not passed, however, according to the speedway official's physician.
Wagner, for forty-five years a starter for automobile, bicycle and horse races, is considered the dean of all starters. Last Sunday was the first time that he had missed being at the starting line at Ascot in more than two years. Ralph Hepburn, who handled the flags in his absence, probably will officiate January 25, and at all events in the Southwest until the Covina rancher recovers.

Ironically, Hepburn was also seriously injured on the following January 2, in a seperate crash. Apart from Saulpaugh and Wagner, four other officials on the 14 feet high starter's stand were reported as injured: George Theobald (assistant starter), Hal F. Weller (AAA Contest Board zone superintendent), Bert Dingley (former racing driver, referee and vice-president of the Stutz Motor Car Co.) and Lester Manning (Oakland traffic policeman and track official). All five officials (including Wagner!) were reported as "badly shaken up but escaped serious injury".

#8 fines

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 11:41

Wagner ("veteran starter") delivered the eulogy at Bob Carey's funeral in April of 1933 and, four months later, he was bashing his successors for their method of starting races in a very lively article in which he was described as "recently retired". Doesn't really sound like he was gravely injured, yet:

Los Angeles Times, November 6, 1933:

VETERAN OF SPEEDWAYS SUCCUMBS
Fred J. Wagner Dies From Injuries Received in Race at Oakland in 1932

Fred J. Wagner, veteran automobile race starter and prominently known on the motor speedways of the country, died yesterday at 3:15 p.m. at the Covina Hospital, where he had been rushed in the morning when his condition became serious.
His death was the result of injuries received on New Year's Day of 1932 during an auto race at Oakland. His health had been falling since the time of the accident. Four days prior to his death his condition grew rapidly acute. At the time of the accident doubts were expressed by surgeons as to his recovery and for several weeks he was in a critical condition.
Sunshine and not to strenuous work on his orange ranch at his Covina home aided him in overcoming this serious stage. But the injuries had taken their toll and he was unable to throw off the final attack. He was born in Covington, Ky., sixty-seven years ago.
He leaves his widow, Mrs. Nancy Wagner, and some relatives in the East. Funeral services will be held at the Hollywood Cemetery Creamatory chapel tomorrow at 2 p.m. The body is in the care of Ivy H. Overholtzer, funeral director, 1719 South Flower street.



#9 fines

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 14:12

Originally posted by ReWind
I stand corrected. I relied on SprintCarHoF because I thought they would know their stuff. :|

Accidentally, I have found where the author of the NSCHoF article got his info from: the dreaded "Legion Ascot Speedway" by John Lucero, again! :( Actually, Lucero has it even more messed up, as he places the fatal accident of "Saulspaugh" (sic!) in April of 1932. :rolleyes: ):

I really do wonder how much bad info is about only due to this one ghoulish book... :evil:

#10 littledutch

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 21:34

The Oakland Tribune of Jan. 2, 1932 has a picture of Wagner, along with Hal Weller of the AAA contest board, standing in front of the demolished starters stand after the accident. It doesn't seem as though he was very severely injured at the time. Possibly he had complications that showed up later? The article says they 'escaped with a slight shaking up'.


#11 Jim Thurman

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 18:18

I've run across the same articles as fines and concur that Fred Wagner did not die of injuries that were racing related. Pure hyperbole. And thanks littledutch for adding more clarifying information on this.

Unfortunately, Wagner is still listed as a "racing fatality" at Motorsport Memorial when this clearly is not the case. Apparently, the article where the Los Angeles Times and New York Times claim it was racing related overcomes all other information.

ADDENDUM: Interestingly though, the Los Angeles Times of February 16, 1932 has an item on Wagner being reported at the Covina Hospital "to have improved considerably following a period thought critical last week."

The question still begs, was this truly relating to the accident, or was it simply age related?

Edited by Jim Thurman, 29 November 2010 - 00:32.


#12 Sharman

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 10:37

Whenever starters are mentioned I can never help recalling Toto Roche's antics and equating them with "...the Governor's dropped the flag or at least the Governor's dropped and the flag's gone down with him"

#13 Graham Clayton

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 03:02

According to the New York Times of June 28, 1919, Wagner was going to be the starter for all races at the Sheepshead Bay Speedway on the 4th of July. "The veteran official was the unanimous choice of the noted speed merchants who will compete in the 100-mile Derby".

Back in early 1911 Wagner was presented with a silver cup at a theatre presentation in New York, "as a token of their esteem" by several of the pre-eminent drivers of the era, including Harry F Grant, David Bruce-Brown, Louis Disbrow, Al Poole, Lewis Strang, Ralph Mulford, Joe Dawson, Herbert Lytle, George Robertson and several others.
New York Times, January 11, 1911

#14 john glenn printz

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 18:21

It should be mentioned that Wagner authored a book published in 1938 called THE SAGA OF THE ROARING ROAD, which was reprinted by Floyd Clymer in 1949. It was based on some articles that Wagner had had printed in the official AAA magazine in the late 1920s. The book however is badly written and contains little real information. Fred originally started out as flag man for bicycle racing, which was very popular in the 1890s and at the turn of the century. He was first enlisted in 1899 to start an automobile race because of his past bicycle experience and it became a career.

Fred flagged and started the first two Indianapolis 500s (1911 and 1912), but because of a dispute he had with Carl Fisher he was never the flag man or starter at Indy ever again.

Just before the running of the November 29, 1925 Culver City 250 a surprized Wagner was given a new Buick sedan. It was a gift from drivers Cooper, Comer, DePalma, DePaolo, Duray, Elliott, Fengler, Hartz, Hearne, Hepburn, Hill, Kreis, McDonogh, Milton, and Wonderlich to show their appreciation of his services.

Fred, in addition, penned some race reports for the NEW YORK TIMES before World War I (1914-1918). DePaolo's book WALL SMACKER (1935) and Wagner's "SAGA" (1938) are the first two books published in the U.S. about automobile racing proper. DePaolo's book is the better of the two but is also poorly put together. Obviously neither DePaolo or Wagner were college men.

Russ Catlin's LIFE OF TED HORN (1949) is the third volume published in the U.S on "big-time" automobile racing unless one includes Ray F. Kuns' (b. 1887) earlier AUTOMOBILE RACING volumes which first appeared in 1932. The last edition of the Kuns' book was in 1947. They all contained reports on the Indianapolis 500 and were a sort of "how to" book for amateurs, on how to construct a race car.

Printz

Edited by john glenn printz, 16 February 2012 - 18:22.


#15 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:08

The Oakland Tribune of Jan. 2, 1932 has a picture of Wagner, along with Hal Weller of the AAA contest board, standing in front of the demolished starters stand after the accident. It doesn't seem as though he was very severely injured at the time. Possibly he had complications that showed up later? The article says they 'escaped with a slight shaking up'.


On January 3, only two days after the Oakland incident, Wagner was flagging the AAA races at Bakersfield.

#16 carl s

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 03:17

Not sure if it's been covered but Wagner was the starter in the terrible pre-race accident (starter-driver mix up) on Thanksgiving 1923 at Beverly Hills Speedway.
http://s1011.photobu...nt=00059439.jpg

#17 Michael Ferner

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 18:40

... and was lauded by the press afterwards for his conduct!

LA Times, Nove 30, 1923:

WELL HANDLED
Too much credit cannot be given Starter Fred Wagner, on whom most of the responsibility for keeping the track clear fell. Several times the crowd threatened to overflow onto the track, but Wagner and his aides managed to keep order. Following the tragic accident at the very start everything was confusion, but in a very few minutes the cars were lined up at the start again and the race was on. Fred Wagner was everywhere at once, doing whatever was humanly possible for the unfortunate victims and then impressing on the drivers that the race was the thing.


Perhaps the results of a guilty consciousness?

#18 carl s

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 19:41

Detective Eugene Biscailuz went on to a storied and well publicised career looking out for the vested Hollywood interests as well as those of the public's. The Los Angeles Police Authorities had a repuation of being amongst the most corrupt in the Country.
His investigation of the incident probably a bit influenced by his growing attachment to the Hollywood and big money crowd that had invested in the Beverly Hills venture.

http://www.badgehist...iscailuz_1.html

... and was lauded by the press afterwards for his conduct!

LA Times, Nove 30, 1923:



Perhaps the results of a guilty consciousness?


Edited by carl s, 14 May 2012 - 19:42.


#19 Tony Kaye

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 17:58

Returning to Wagner’s cause of death, this is a partial timeline of his last years:

January 12, 1931 – Admitted to hospital with serious, but unspecified, illness.
Most of 1931 – Recuperation at home and is forced to relinquish most/some of his flagging duties.
January 1, 1932 – Falls from judges stand at Oakland track when it is demolished by an errant race car.
February 16, 1932 – Re-admitted to hospital, in a critical condition.
November 1, 1933 - Severely ill. Presumed in hospital.
November 5, 1933 – Deceased
November 6, 1933 – Announcement that his death was due to injuries sustained in the Oakland accident.

Overall, there can be no doubt that Fred Wagner had been seriuosly ill prior to the accident, which may have exacerbated his condition. Also, there may have been other hospital stays, which went unrecorded.

His book ‘The Saga of the Roaring Road’ adds some further insights. In it he stated in reference to the Oakland accident that “My hurts laid me low for six months!”, implying that he believed that he had recovered from them by the summer of 1932. Further, this indicates that the injuries from the Oakland accident were definitely not trivial, neither were they short term. Furthermore, although he believed that they had healed, it is quite possible that they played a part in his eventual, fatal condition.

In the following paragraph he added that his wife would have to finish the manuscript “because I know my number has been ‘posted’ on Eternity’s ‘callboard’.” In plain words, when he prepared his book he was aware that he was dying.

It is said that the book consists of extracts from articles which he had written for the AAA magazine. There is no reason to doubt this assertion, however the book itself definitely reads more like a conventional autobiography, with much it written in the first person. Responsibility for any transformation probably lies with John M Mitchell, whose name appears under Wagner’s on the first page - “By Fred J Wagner as told to John M Mitchell”. The words ‘as told to’ hardly suggest a mere reproduction of existing articles and neither does some of the content. In part, at least, one seems to hear the voice of Fred Wagner talking to his biographer.

But it was not all by Fred Wagner. It is easy to prove that Mitchell added his own elements to the text. For instance, on page 14 Wagner supposedly makes reference to Malcolm Campbell’s land speed record at Daytona in 1934. Wagner happened to be dead at that time!

There is another question about the book. If it was written/dictated not long before Wagner’s death, probably in the latter half of 1933, why was it not published until 1938? A lot of changes and additions could have been made to his text in the subsequent five years.

All of which merely adds to the confusion surrounding his death.

However, until someone can provide the official cause of death or the Covina Hospital records, we are left with only one contemporary statement, the Los Angeles Times of November 6, 1933, which said that “his death was the result of injuries received on New Year’s Day of 1932”.

However well reasoned, anything else is mere conjecture.




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#20 Michael Ferner

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 20:04

Tony, good to see you posting again. However, I must disagree with your conclusion. I would never put that much trust in a newspaper report, they are not reliable for this sort of analysis. Common sense is much better: if a person suffers an accident, then returns to his daily routine for two and a half years before he dies, death cannot be attributed to that accident. The accident may have played a crucial role, however it cannot be "the cause" or "the result". Biology does not work like that. Computers may expire after a predetermined time span, humans do not.

Another thing: about the cause of his 1931 illness, maybe my unfamiliarity with the English language shows, but I read the newspaper flash in post 7 as him having suffered a stroke. However, looking up the word "stricken", I find that is not so. What about the pneumonia mentioned in that snippet? That would make sense.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 30 June 2012 - 20:05.


#21 Tony Kaye

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 15:01

Michael, your conjecture that Fred Wagner did not die from the injuries that he suffered in the Oakland crash is well reasoned. Despite the passage of 78 years and no official cause of death to back up your argument, it is possible that you are correct.

Equally, without such official information we cannot blithely write off the statement that appeared one day after his death.

The problem is that without his Death Certificate or the Covina Hospital records we will never know what caused his death. Until those documents are located, any hypothesis, such as yours, will be mere conjecture.


#22 Jim Thurman

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 17:03

Michael, your conjecture that Fred Wagner did not die from the injuries that he suffered in the Oakland crash is well reasoned. Despite the passage of 78 years and no official cause of death to back up your argument, it is possible that you are correct.

Equally, without such official information we cannot blithely write off the statement that appeared one day after his death.

The problem is that without his Death Certificate or the Covina Hospital records we will never know what caused his death. Until those documents are located, any hypothesis, such as yours, will be mere conjecture.

I agree with Michael and will gladly check Mr. Wagner's death certificate the next time I visit the Los Angeles County Records office in Norwalk. Though, at this time, I cannot say with certainty when I will get to do that.

As I wrote, I chalk it up to newspaper hyperbole. Newspapers have always seemed to want to add to racing's toll, often incorrectly so.

#23 Tony Kaye

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 16:08

I was hoping that someone in the LA area might be reading this thread.

With luck we may be able to reach a conclusion on this.

I look forward to your next post, Jim.

#24 Jim Thurman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 08:31

I was within 15 minutes of the Los Angeles County Records office (or I should say, 12 miles, traffic was bumper-to-bumper on the freeway). After 30 minutes on surface streets through four suburban cities, I got to the Records building less than a half hour before they closed.

I can state unequivocally that Fred J. Wagner died from natural causes. So, once and for all we can put an end to "died from his racing hurts" nonsense. Utter bunk.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 13 July 2012 - 23:54.


#25 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 19:03

Well done, Jim! :up:

Although I didn't really need this, it being so obvious.