46 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

A friend has asked for some assistance researching this pre-World War One British-born American-domiciled racing great. After having settled in the USA, Hughie Hughes was publicised as having competed in "a De Dietrich in the 1904 Gordon Bennett race in France". Hmmm. As a riding mechanic, perhaps? The misinformation appears to have originated from him. After his successes with Mercer and others he died at Uniontown in 1916, run down by a crashing car after having retired his own. But it's his early background which is in question. And what, truly, was 'Hughie's christian name?

DCN

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Hughie Hughes was publicised as having competed in "a De Dietrich in the 1904 Gordon Bennett race in France". Hmmm.

Hmmm, indeed!
a) the 1904 GB was held in the Taunus, Germany (not France)
b) technically no de Dietrich competed, although the one Turcat-Méry was a de Dietrich built in Marseilles, rather than Lunéville (driver Rougier)

[fines]

I wouldn't put ANY weight in it, as it was almost compulsory for US drivers with European names and/or backgrounds to include something like that in their CVs for the benefit of race promotions. Almost certainly bovine excrement. Heck, some even only went on a lengthy vacation in the Old World and returned with stories about some grandiose racing success!

Sadly, I have no first name for "Hughie".

P.S. Are we even sure he was English-born???

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
...After having settled in the USA, Hughie Hughes was publicised as having competed in "a De Dietrich in the 1904 Gordon Bennett race in France"...

I don't think so!

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
A friend has asked for some assistance researching this pre-World War One British-born American-domiciled racing great. After having settled in the USA, Hughie Hughes was publicised as having competed in "a De Dietrich in the 1904 Gordon Bennett race in France". Hmmm. As a riding mechanic, perhaps? The misinformation appears to have originated from him. After his successes with Mercer and others he died at Uniontown in 1916, run down by a crashing car after having retired his own. But it's his early background which is in question. And what, truly, was 'Hughie's christian name?

DCN

Doug - I wish I knew - he's one of my big mysteries.

I cannot really be sure on much - a search of the records around the time of his birth lists many birth records of Hughie & Hugh Hughes - all "apparently" their birth name.

To answer Michael's details - yes, he was born in London, England - the US passenger list confirmations & records confirm he moved to the US in 1906.

http://www.oldracing...ategory=Indy500

For what it is worth:
Hughie Hughes b. 1886 London, England d. 02 Dec 1916 Uniontown, Pennsylvania USA
Killed in a board track crash. English born, but a US citizen. A charismatic, top-line driver, Hughes moved to the US in 1906. Also worked in a garage. Hughes took many wins and speed records until his death.

And that is about as much as I know, although I think the good chaps at Motorsport Memorial found a little bit out as well.

And at the moment......... that's about as much as I can add for now - although i can probably provide supporting info, but little more biographical info.

I would love this mystery to be solved - it's been bugging me for years.

[leestohr]

Hughes was part of colorful race promoter Ernie Moross's traveling show in December 1908. Barney Oldfield and Hughes ran a 'race meet' at Tanforan Park, San Francisco - the show was so bad the local papers called it a "bunco game, pure and simple". An interesting bit of trivia - Hughes was using the old 1907 Christie grand prix car.
He was perhaps the last man to drive it in January 1909.
I don't know much about Hughes early days. He raced Mercers in 1910,11,12. He owned the old Sunbeam 'Toodles IV' in 1916. He may have been at the Ormond Beach races in 1908. He raced an Allen-Kingston in 1909.

[robert dick]

- Name in the entry lists published in Motor Age in 1911 and -12: Hugh Hughes.

- Motor Age, 31 August 1911, report Elgin Races : "Hughes, winner of the Kane County cup and third in the Elgin National, is a veteran like Zengel and has done considerable dirt track racing in his time, a game at which he is particularly good. Last year he drove for the Falcar and did good work. He joined the Mercer forces this spring and since then he has done particularly well with the Mercer."

- In a pre-race report of the 1912 Indy 500, Motor Age described him as "Lord" Hughie Hughes, born in London.

Nothing concerning a start in a Bennett race.

[robert dick]

To avoid confusions: "Lord" Hughie Hughes in the sense that Hughes came from England, not in the sense of a title.

= = = = =

Nice photo taken at Elgin, 1912, from the American Memory collection - Eddie Pullen, Hughie Hughes, Harry Endicott, George Hill and Teddy Tetzlaff:
http://memory.loc.go...578/s057876.jpg

[ensign14]

Originally posted by robert dick
To avoid confusions: "Lord" Hughie Hughes in the sense that Hughes came from England, not in the sense of a title.

Sounds a bit like wrestling, where they make up a nickname based on one aspect of a person's life. Fitting for the barnstormers? A la Leon Duray, "French" ace?

Question is whether Hugh is his genuine first name, or retconned by the journalists. Or indeed if "Hughes" is his real name? Sounds like something someone might make up to invent a toff of the track.

[fines]

Yes, I've seen the "Lord" part, too. And mention of Leon Duray is proper in this context, as I believe he was advertised as a "former French Grand Prix winner" in his early days, when he's extremely unlikely to have set foot on French (or even European) ground before 1929.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by robert dick
Nice photo taken at Elgin, 1912, from the American Memory collection - Eddie Pullen, Hughie Hughes, Harry Endicott, George Hill and Teddy Tetzlaff:
http://memory.loc.go...578/s057876.jpg

Thanks very much for that, Robert
They're mostly just names to me - good to see they were real people
But I'm disappointed that Teddy Tetzlaff doesn't look too Terrible at all...

[fines]

He can do better...



... like, scaring the s**t out of a lassie!

[Henk]

Originally posted by leestohr
Hughes was part of colorful race promoter Ernie Moross's traveling show in December 1908. Barney Oldfield and Hughes ran a 'race meet' at Tanforan Park, San Francisco - the show was so bad the local papers called it a "bunco game, pure and simple". An interesting bit of trivia - Hughes was using the old 1907 Christie grand prix car.

The San Francisco Call, December 4, 1908.

Triumphs on the Brooklands track ??

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by Henk

Triumphs on the Brooklands track ??

Nobody of that name mentioned in the index to WB's Brooklands history.

[ensign14]

It's like reading a Payton Tapp Watkins press release.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by Henk

Triumphs on the Brooklands track ??

Perhaps he backed a winner at the bookie's

[fines]

Q.E.D.

[Henk]

G.H.



The San Francisco Call, December 7, 1908.

[leestohr]

Walter Christie had several accidents throughout his racing career. He crashed and may have broken his wrist in Pittsburg in 1907, but he was never afraid to get back behind the wheel. Christie continued racing his 'Grand Prix' car until Nov. 7, 1908 in St. Louis, Missouri. He appeared to be on an Ernie Moross tour with Barney Oldfield, Ollie Savin and Charles Soules. They began touring in early September. Christie probably quit to go back to New York and complete the design and construction of his last and fastest racer, as well as completing his front wheel drive Taxi cab. Hughie Hughes then replaced Christie and December 5/6 they hit San Francisco - the Christie broke down as 'Henk' reported above. December 26/27 found them at Ascot Park where Hughes got the Christie running again. Barney and Hughes traded 'wins' as was standard procedure. January 3, 1909 Hughes and Oldfield were in Phoenix, and Hughes put the Christie through a fence. Hughes said he was going to take a job with a garage in Phoenix, but that didn't last long. This from the 'Arizona Republican' newspaper and the Oldfield scrapbooks.

[Jim Thurman]

Bringing this one up again as I'm trying to find any additional information on "Hughie" Hughes, particularly date of birth and real first name.

According to the death notice in the Los Angeles Times, he was listed as 38 years of age, placing his birth year at 1878 instead of 1886.

His body was returned to Los Angeles for burial, but none of the cemeteries in operation in 1916 have any Hughes that died in that time frame. His funeral was December 11, 1916 in Los Angeles. Eddie O'Donnell, Omar Toft and Teddy Tetzlaff were among the pallbearers.

[Richard Jenkins]

I recently discovered a Pennsylvania death index which covered his death, but even in that he was listed as Hughie Hughes.

[Jim Thurman]

I recently discovered a Pennsylvania death index which covered his death, but even in that he was listed as Hughie Hughes.

Thanks Richard. I can't say I'm surprised. I recall someone surmised that Hugh might have been his given first name.

One of our members was checking birth records in England. Perhaps, they could check again for a Hughes in 1878?

I'm more perplexed about not locating his interment site. There were only three reasonable possibilities and none of those cemeteries had any Hughes from 1916. This despite the Los Angeles Times having a small account of his funeral. Perhaps they got one key detail wrong and that might explain a lot.

[Geoff E]

One of our members was checking birth records in England. Perhaps, they could check again for a Hughes in 1878?

There were eight Hugh Hughes born in England in 1878 and about 40 in Wales.

[Jim Thurman]

There were eight Hugh Hughes born in England in 1878 and about 40 in Wales.

Geoff, I thought that was you that was checking. Thanks It's a shame the articles I found didn't give his mother or wife's name. One reported his mother was "more than 70 years of age" and living in London at the time of his death.

There are some U.S. drivers I've found impossible to track down owing to the commonality of their surnames. But, I guess that's something I don't need to mention to either you or Richard.

I don't think Hughie and his wife had lived in Los Angeles very long, but it still might be worth a look in the 1916 Los Angeles City Directory on the off chance they were listed.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 18 February 2013 - 21:01.

[Robert Rampton]

Information in my file states Mrs. Hughes was the former Miss Cruze from Boston. They did reside in Los Angeles at the time of Hughes' death. No children. I don't have a funeral notice. To those who do, does it mention the funeral home name. I have found funeral home records have survived in other locations. Where is Hughes buried and is it marked?

[Jim Thurman]

Information in my file states Mrs. Hughes was the former Miss Cruze from Boston. They did reside in Los Angeles at the time of Hughes' death. No children. I don't have a funeral notice. To those who do, does it mention the funeral home name. I have found funeral home records have survived in other locations. Where is Hughes buried and is it marked?

Thanks Robert. The funeral home was Edwards, Gamash & Heath, which is long out of business, though the building still exists just south of downtown Los Angeles. And, unlike some of the other funeral homes, I'm not sure of a lineage being carried on by another.

Neither the funeral notice nor report on it in the Los Angeles Times gave a burial location. I've contacted the possible cemeteries and none had anyone named Hughes listed as being interred in 1916.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 19 February 2013 - 01:42.

[D-Type]

Although the "G H Hughes" in the San Francisco Call article suggests it might have been, I would be wary of assuming that "Hugh" was his given name without confirmation. I think it feels more like a "Johnny Johnson", "Woody Woodruff", "Wilkie Wilkinson" etc type of nickname.

[Geoff E]

I think it feels more like a "Johnny Johnson", "Woody Woodruff", "Wilkie Wilkinson" etc type of nickname.

So do I.

There were 19 George H HUGHESes births registered 1877-79.

[fbarrett]

Today I just happened to be looking for early Pikes Peak Hillclimb results in the book The Pikes Peak Race by Stanley DeGeer and found this for the first year, 1916:

Event 2, for cars 231 to 300 ci, Friday, 8/11/16: Lord Hughie Hughes, car 12, Duesenberg Special, DNF.
Event 3 ("free for all"--evidently the one that counted), Saturday, 8/12/16: Lord Hughie Hughes, car 12, Duesenberg Special (white), DNF

Surprisingly, I also found this photo in my files that may be him in the car, as the car number and color match.



Frank

Edited by fbarrett, 22 February 2013 - 22:50.

[Geoff E]

Lord Hughie Hughes

... or "Lord" Hughie Hughes http://www.firstsupe...s/hughie-hughes

[Richard Jenkins]

I was intrigued to see, some 9 hours after discussing said gentleman with Adam, Allen and Roger at Stoneleigh - that Wikipedia claims to have his date of birth.
It's not right, sadly and for the following reasons;

1) There was no Hugh Ernest Hughes born in 1885 in London.
2) Hughie Ernest Hughes of 13 May 1885 fame is http://search.ancest...&...&pid=503103 - not British and not a racing driver.
3) That draft card is signed in 1918 - impressive feat considering he was already deceased,
4) H E Hughes died in 1941 in Indiana.

This is the double drawback with Wikipedia - one, people can guess, and then it's accepted as fact, but then two, all the less fussy sites copy this information and mis-information is spread all over the internet. I am sure someone will email me soon alerting me to the Wikipedia page - http://en.wikipedia....i/Hughie_Hughes, but I have tweaked it for now.

Sorry, I'm no nearer myself to solving the mystery postively.

[Michael Ferner]

Today I just happened to be looking for early Pikes Peak Hillclimb results in the book The Pikes Peak Race by Stanley DeGeer and found this for the first year, 1916:

Event 2, for cars 231 to 300 ci, Friday, 8/11/16: Lord Hughie Hughes, car 12, Duesenberg Special, DNF.
Event 3 ("free for all"--evidently the one that counted), Saturday, 8/12/16: Lord Hughie Hughes, car 12, Duesenberg Special (white), DNF

Surprisingly, I also found this photo in my files that may be him in the car, as the car number and color match.



Frank

Yes, it's him, although the car was described as a 16-valve Duesenberg, and this is a "drop-frame" - evidently, they put a new engine in one of the older cars.

[Jim Thurman]

I found an obituary for his widow, who had married a Lester A. Roderick after Hughie's passing.  She died in Los Angeles apparently on May 2, 1929 from tuberculosis.  She was listed as being born in Boston "about forty-two years ago" and the obituary gave her name as Marguerite F. (or P.), known as Peggy Hughes. Worked for the Los Angeles unit of the Red Cross during World War I.

 

From the account, I gather she and Hughie were married in Boston.

 

I don't know if that will be of any help to our genealogists and researchers, but, for what it's worth, there it is.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 07 October 2013 - 07:57.

[Richard Jenkins]

Thanks Jim, it probably may end up helping but it's not bringing an immediate answer.

 

The closest - if all the above checks out is a James Hughes, born 1884, in England, who married a Margaret Sheehan on the 13th April 1906 in Boston. Sheehan was 19, so born c. 1886, which fits the 1929 date.

 

That all encouraginly fits to a small degree but the crucial bit is the 1910 census and that's where the trail runs cold as to whether the above is a lead or not.

[BRG]

The Motorsport article on Hughes this month doesn't answer any of the questions about this mysterious driver.  It is an intriguing mystery.  Any new clues?

[Jim Thurman]

The Motorsport article on Hughes this month doesn't answer any of the questions about this mysterious driver.  It is an intriguing mystery.  Any new clues?

 

I've turned up another potential lead. I finally found the death certificate for Hughie's widow, Marguerite, by then Marguerite F. Roderick, having married Lester A. Roderick. She is listed as being born July 11, 1887 in Massachusetts to James H. Fallon and Helen M. Sullivan. Both father and mother are listed as born in Massachusetts. She had been in Los Angeles for 14 years, which matches moving there with Hughie in 1915.

 

In addition to what I mentioned from the obituary above, she worked as a handbag and jewelry buyer for a couple of stores in downtown Los Angeles until her health failed. Of course, none of this truly helps directly with "Hughie", nor does it provide a first name for him.

 

Also, to clear up any confusion and prevent people spending time looking up the wrong alley (so to speak), "Hughie" was cremated, but the wording in the Los Angeles Times report on his funeral service left the impression that his ashes were buried. Apparently not, though searching cemeteries without a first name doesn't help matters. There weren't that many cemeteries in Los Angeles in 1916 and maybe two or three crematoriums.

 

Richard, Geoff, I can send you a .jpg of the death certificate if you'd like.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 08 April 2015 - 03:24.

[robert dick]

Motor Age, 10 September 1914:
"The Maxwell agency has again changed hands in Tacoma, and this time it is in the hands of Hughie Hughes, who has recently become associated with George M. Sunday, who is also Tacoma agent for the Gramm-Bernstein Motor Co. Mr. Sunday will act as sales manager of the new concern, and Hughes will set as manager of the Maxwell agency and mechanical expert."

Motor Age, 1 October 1914:
"Hughie Hughes, now located in Tacoma, has commenced the construction of a racing car which he has named Tacoma and which he expects to finish in time for the big races next year. A feature of the racer will be the cylinders. They will be 3 1/2 by 7 inches, giving a displacement of approximately 297.6 cubic inches or just inside the 300-inch limit. This will give a long-stroke motor, developing plenty of power. The frame of the Tacoma will be built in such a way that there will not be a single bolt-hole in it. All suspension points will be built right on the frame."

As far as I know, the Tacoma was never built, and in the spring of 1915, in the San Francisco races (Grand Prize + Vanderbilt) Hughes drove the Ono (Fiat chassis + Pope-Harford engine).
 

[Richard Jenkins]

Jim, I really appreciate your efforts with tracking this down. Unfortunately, the new information doesn't shed any new light on any records currently available. I think the crucial records we need are locked away or lost thus far. It's such a shame the death certificate offers so little.

[Jim Thurman]

Jim, I really appreciate your efforts with tracking this down. Unfortunately, the new information doesn't shed any new light on any records currently available. I think the crucial records we need are locked away or lost thus far. It's such a shame the death certificate offers so little.

 

You're welcome Richard. This is one that bugs me as well. Sadly, I realize it's not much. I did some cursory checking of some Census data and found it no real help for the grail. At least, and probably solely, it's perhaps a somewhat interesting sidebar. If that.

 

For a driver with such a fascinating CV, it's unfortunate that we've run into such a cold trail.

[Jim Thurman]

Motor Age, 10 September 1914:
"The Maxwell agency has again changed hands in Tacoma, and this time it is in the hands of Hughie Hughes, who has recently become associated with George M. Sunday, who is also Tacoma agent for the Gramm-Bernstein Motor Co. Mr. Sunday will act as sales manager of the new concern, and Hughes will set as manager of the Maxwell agency and mechanical expert."

Motor Age, 1 October 1914:
"Hughie Hughes, now located in Tacoma, has commenced the construction of a racing car which he has named Tacoma and which he expects to finish in time for the big races next year. A feature of the racer will be the cylinders. They will be 3 1/2 by 7 inches, giving a displacement of approximately 297.6 cubic inches or just inside the 300-inch limit. This will give a long-stroke motor, developing plenty of power. The frame of the Tacoma will be built in such a way that there will not be a single bolt-hole in it. All suspension points will be built right on the frame."

As far as I know, the Tacoma was never built, and in the spring of 1915, in the San Francisco races (Grand Prize + Vanderbilt) Hughes drove the Ono (Fiat chassis + Pope-Harford engine).
 

 

Robert, thank you for this information.This brings up something I've run into time and time again. That racers were often quite itinerant. Many seemed to find their way to Los Angeles at some point, but residencies in the Midwest, Northeast, even the Northwest, weren't uncommon either.

 

Do we even have a full list, or even an idea, of where all Hughes lived in the U.S.?

[robert dick]

In the fall of 1916, Hughes drove a Hoskins Special, a car described as renamed Duesenberg.
According to the contemporary press, the Hoskins was backed by
- a C. C. Hoskins, a sportsman from Kansas City;
- a J. C. Hoskins, a millionaire from Kansas City;
- a J. E. Hoskins from Chicago.
A John E. Hoskins appeared in some newspapers, a Chicago sportsman involved in the Moller & VandenBoom Lumber Co. of Quincy, Illinois - but in the contemporary press there was no connection to auto racing.
Who was the Hoskins in question?

[Michael Ferner]

J. C. Hoskins of the Automobile Service Corp. in Chicago, according to my information. The car was later sold to A. C. Stickel (or Stickle) of Connellsville/PA, who mated it to the Hudson Super Six engine of Ralph Mulford, which he then called the Stickel (or Stickle) Special, to be driven by Denny Hickey, also of Connellsville.

[robert dick]

In August 1916, J. C. Hoskins appeared as driver in the Cincinnati entry list (Motor Age, August 1916):

 

Stickel = Super Six engined Hoskins chassis - Indianapolis 1919 (Motor Age, May 1919):

Dave Lewis drove a Hoskins in 1917 and 1918. A second car?

[Michael Ferner]

No, the same.

[robert dick]

Mention of a C.C. Hoskins from Kansas City and a second Hoskins for Chicago's Speedway Grand Prix, 19 August 1916:
(Motor Age + South Bend News, August 1916)

[Michael Ferner]

A "J. C. Hoskins" was also listed as a driver and/or owner of a Chadwick for the 1914 Elgin Road Races. Elgin is a suburb of Chicago, and the car was eventually driven by Andy Burt from Chicago. The Hoskins Special Duesenberg was first entered at Chicago Speedway Park in 1916, with Mel Stringer from Chicago listed as driver. I am well aware that newspapers and even specialist magazines sometimes list different initials and different hometowns, however I think that the evidence stacks up that it was J. C. Hoskins from Chicago. Still, I can't be sure.

The Hoskins was basically a Duesenberg with a different name and a different colour, just like the Meteor, ReVere, Crawford etc. - there was a long tradition of Duesenberg "customer cars" (not unlike the 1926 Locomobile Junior 8 which was really a Miller, or the 1923 HCS Special Miller etc.). Sometimes, the cars differed in small details, mostly the radiator shell, but those differences were easily erased if need be, I'm sure. The Hoskins was first driven by former Duesenberg works driver Eddie O'Donnell at Des Moines (it wasn't ready for Chicago a fortnight earlier), and then by O'Donnell until his serious accident at Kansas City on July 22. I can't be sure, but I believe O'Donnell drove the car because of an acute shortage of new cars from the factory. Duesenberg was in the habit of completing customer cars first, and works entries always at the last minute. In 1916, for example, there were three new Crawfords with 16-valve engines at Indy, while the works drivers d'Alene and O'Donnell had to make do with older drop-frame chassis and 8-valve engines (though there is some dispute about which engines were actually used). O'Donnell's new straight-frame 16-valve car arrived too late to qualify, and at the next race in Chicago he drove a privately owned drop-frame 8-valve car.

O'Donnell was the most successful Duesenberg driver in early 1916, scoring some of the company's biggets wins, but now he was destined to wait for the factory team to get the latest tweaks. He can't have been a happy camper watching his rivals compete for top money at Indy, and I feel sure he was "loaned" to the Hoskins team in order to acquiesce him. Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that perhaps the Hoskins team got a new car to replace the O'Donnell wreck, caused by a works driver on loan. There were never two Hoskins cars in any race, as far as I can determine.

[robert dick]

Do we even have a full list, or even an idea, of where all Hughes lived in the U.S.?

In the fall of 1916, Hughes and his wife lived in an apartment of the Sherwood Hotel, 431 South Grand Avenue, Los Angeles
(Los Angeles Herald, December 1916):


The Sherwood Hotel:
http://web.csulb.edu...thor/SherEx.jpg