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[Poll] New WDC system - Yes or No


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Poll: [Poll] New WDC system - Yes or No (638 member(s) have cast votes)

  1. Agree (82 votes [12.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.89%

  2. Not Agree (530 votes [83.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 83.33%

  3. No comment (24 votes [3.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.77%

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#101 Rob

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 21:56

Originally posted by JPW

I really don't get this useless sign an internet petition thing, it won't change anything and nobody in power will notice anyway.


If everyone thought like that, there wouldn't be any signatures. If everyone signed because it was a cause they believed in, then we could achieve something. If those in power choose to ignore it then it just shows how out of touch they really are.

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#102 Budvar

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 21:56

I am glad none of (most) you lot are judges! "Guilty as charged and bugger the fact we have yet to see any evidence" ! That's rather Mosleyesque is it not?

The system will favour teams with clear 'number one/two drivers'. Well yes, but that's like saying the night will now be dark.

Drivers will pull over to save parts for the next race if they cannot win. Yes, if they want the sack. There is a lot of prize money based on the Constructors Championship, which of course remains based on the existing system.

The 'number two's' will be told to drive their team mates opposition off the road. I think we (and the stewards) might notice this and as far as I am aware, there are penalties for dangerous driving, like getting banned.

No, I will hold my fire until the system has time to show its faults and merits, just like any system has.

#103 orges

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 21:58

Not agree.. Now if you are fighting for title and you are 3rd or 2nd you may just give up catching first place :(

#104 Dolph

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 21:59

Originally posted by Apex
Of the possible systems they could have come up with, this has got to be the least intelligent of them all. Even the medals system would have been better because then everyone would use the same system. Now there are two separate point scoring systems being used at the same time, one for the title fight and another for the rest of the drivers. What the hell were the thinking? :confused: :confused: :confused:

I now hope the winner of this years title finishes as low as possible in the regular points table. I can only imagine the looks on the faces of Bernie & Max if, when the season is over, they have to tell the world that this year the guy who finished fourth is our new world champion.

Failing that, I'd like the standing in the WDC table before the last race to be something like this:

1. Lewis Hamilton, 6 wins, 110 points
2. Felipe Massa, 5 wins, 103 points

That way Hamilton can again secure the title with a 5th place.

Morons. :mad: :mad: :mad:


You do of course realize that you are describing events that have never happened and are extremely unlikely to happen. You guys are getting all worked up about nothing really - imagining the absolute worst case scenario. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#105 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 22:00

Originally posted by undersquare


Yup, count me in. How hard can it be?

If you call Silverstone, Imola, Indy etc. I'll call Toby Moody and a film company. Someone to call the teams, someone to call the TV companies and we're good to go.

Oh and someone for Bernie's role - a sh*t-stirrer to keep us in the news :p .

I'll do that, be fun

#106 BullHead

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 22:00

Originally posted by Apex


1. Lewis Hamilton, 6 wins, 110 points
2. Felipe Massa, 5 wins, 103 points

That way Hamilton can again secure the title with a 5th place.

Morons. :mad: :mad: :mad:


Of course, now I'm thinking thankyou. A driver with more wins in hand doesn't need to race if there is no threat. This system could shorten the title fight....

#107 metz

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 22:01

Also the timing disturbs me.
Would BMW or Toyota have concentrated on reliability, as they seem to have, or would they rather build a faster less reliable car?
The teams should get a little more notice of the rules.

#108 BullHead

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 22:03

Okay, now I've decided. It doesn't help the title fight, and will look stupid when put against actual point scores. YES, winning a race needed more emphasis and reward - but not like this. The 12pt win was a better idea. I will vote no. :)

#109 JPW

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 22:05

Originally posted by Rob

If everyone thought like that, there wouldn't be any signatures. If everyone signed because it was a cause they believed in, then we could achieve something. If those in power choose to ignore it then it just shows how out of touch they really are.

OK fine, but imo the ones out of touch with reality are those signing such a lame petition.
Several thousand signatures aren't going to change anyting the WMSC has voted on.

#110 TickTickBooom

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 22:08

I'm wondering if Autosport will report on the uproar amongst the fans.

I don't care what JPW says, we have a right to be heard. Without us there would be no F1.

#111 Budvar

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 22:11

Originally posted by orges
Not agree.. Now if you are fighting for title and you are 3rd or 2nd you may just give up catching first place :(


Ok, so you do that and score no points. Then come the end of the season you are tied on wins with another driver, who has 1 more point scored, and hence wins the title. Who is going to look like a right bell end? Yes, the clever dick who thought that retiring was the best idea.

Do not underestimate the chance that two, or indeed more, drivers will score the same number of race wins. The actual points scored remains very important for that reason, not to mention the very significant matter of WCC points and prize money awarded.

#112 BullHead

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 22:20

Originally posted by Budvar


Do not underestimate the chance that two, or indeed more, drivers will score the same number of race wins. The actual points scored remains very important for that reason, not to mention the very significant matter of WCC points and prize money awarded.


Excellent point.

#113 GerardF1

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 23:44

Originally posted by ensign14

1964, 1988...


2 years in over 50 in seasons where it was best X finishes,

This system almost guarantees it happening yearly. If you are ahead in wins why bother to race at all?

It will not make the racing closer for the win it will entice repeats of Suzuka 1990, Adelaide 1994, Jerez 1997 at every race. If it is win or nothing - why not take him out.

#114 GerardF1

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 23:56

Originally posted by Budvar


Ok, so you do that and score no points. Then come the end of the season you are tied on wins with another driver, who has 1 more point scored, and hence wins the title. Who is going to look like a right bell end? Yes, the clever dick who thought that retiring was the best idea.

Do not underestimate the chance that two, or indeed more, drivers will score the same number of race wins. The actual points scored remains very important for that reason, not to mention the very significant matter of WCC points and prize money awarded.



Or just take your opponent out if you can't win - just as logical.

And more likely given the governing bodies lack of action on such events in the past.

What is even more likely is a punishment to a driver for a true racing accident.

Or the title being decided by an incompentent stewards decison.

One of the reasons for all results counting is that it give a fair shot at bad calls falling for everyone. Especially importantly given the poor enforcement of the rules ( or just making them up as you go along ) that we have seen over past years.

#115 Slartibartfast

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 23:58

Originally posted by Dolph
I like the new rules. This is because a guy finishing second every race has a too big of a chance of flukeing in to the drivers title. Just look at 2008 WRC championship as an example. If Loeb would have had a few technical mishaps at the end of the season he could have lost the title. Did Hirvonen deserve the title? Never. Also in 2003 if MS wouldn't have won the title with his 6 wins against Räikkönens 1 it would have been ridiculous.


The only luck that would see a driver finish every F1 race in second place is bad luck.

#116 Apex

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 00:40

Originally posted by Dolph


You do of course realize that you are describing events that have never happened and are extremely unlikely to happen. You guys are getting all worked up about nothing really - imagining the absolute worst case scenario. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Look, I know I exaggerated a little bit. However, the thought that the season could end with one driver winning the points table while another takes the title is not an unrealistic one. If that happens, and sooner or later it will, Max will, again, look incredibly stupid. And you know that.

The second scenario I added just because it would be fun, after all the whining by Bernie about how the title shouldn't be secured by a fifth place, it all happened again despite this new system. I know this is something that can happen with almost any system and I don't even consider it a problem.

#117 Lazy Prodigy

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 00:49

this new system is quite stupid.

#118 GerardF1

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 01:07

Just thought of another issue with this new system - contractual obligations to be the "2nd" driver.

Gets around the team orders issue when you walk into the first press conference of the year saying that in order to get a drive in f1 I signed a contract saying that if my teammate is behind me I will volunteer to move over for him starting in the first race.

It wasn't a team order he offered it to us as part of the contract negotiations... Think Sato wouldn't offer a deal like that? Or any one of dozens of drivers?

If you were winning the race and moved over given the current team orders rule - when the only way you can be world champion is to win races - Max would have you keelhauled - drawn and quartered - and spanked

#119 Stibbles

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 01:11

Originally posted by Crazy Ninja
I agree. I absolutely hate drivers that drive sensibly and pick up points and think about the championship. I know its the smart thing to do but i would rather watch a grand prix knowing 2nd place is actually trying to catch and pass 1st place driver, rather than having races like Valencia last year.


And on this basis we would never have seen one of the most entertaining drivers I'v seen - Keke Rosberg

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#120 Stibbles

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 01:13

Originally posted by Orin
So much for listening to the fans. Mosley pulled this one out of his arse.


That to me has been his whole reference point for decision making

#121 Stibbles

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 01:17

Originally posted by Crazy Ninja


I enjoyed 07 but not so much 08 :lol:

If this system was in place for last year, Lewis + Massa would have to fight each other for the win. I would of preferred to see Lewis vs Felipe in a head on battle for the WDC. Granted, last years finish was incredible, but it would have been even more exciting if they were pushing each other side by side, instead of Lewis cruising around in 5th.

97 would already been wrapped up by Jerez, but 99 would of had Irvine + Hakkinen going against each other for the win for the title. I think its definitely better than the old points system, so im happy to give it a cahnce and see how it pans out for this season.


Think this through properly - if Massa was trying to get to an equalled wins outcome and they were then tied on results tied down to 5 the same out results. And if one driver has tied it up at round 12 we get to sleep through he rest of the season.

#122 Stibbles

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 01:21

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
I like it.

:cool:


Having read your emails over the past few years I'm not surprised. You always want to be different.

#123 Rob76

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 01:40

I don't agree with it. I would prefer a system that more evenly rewards wins and season consistency.

Any analysis of past seasons (including the FIA's 'research') is somewhat limited in what it tells us. The drivers were not driving under a system where most wins wins the championship, and if they had been, both the drivers and their teams would have acted differently.

Now drivers are being encouraged to risk more for a win, are we going to see more questionable stewards decisions?

If this decision was based on public opinion, I really wonder where they did their market research. One would assume that most F1 fans (in the true sense, rather than casual viewers) would find their way to F1 forums or polls somewhere on the internet. Of the ones I read, Bernie's medal proposal and this decision seems unfavorable to the majority of those who vote and/or post. This isn't the days of rec.autos.sport.f1 in the 90's where the FIA could dismiss the views posted as those of a tiny die hard minority...the internet now has a wider audience than just students posting on F1 bulletin boards and downloading porn (yes, that was me....)

#124 molive

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 02:54

Thats the biggest SHITTIEST IDEA that FIA has ever produced.


:down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

#125 Stibbles

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 03:39

Originally posted by Gamma Goblin
I wonder if this was some sort of power play by Mosely, because FOTA were being seen to get things done after years of FIA inspired half-baked ideas brought us to the sorry state we are in now (up to '09 that is)

Just when i was starting to hope that common sense was prevailing (i.e. the FOTA points preposal)

Stupid, stupid, stupid. :evil:


Hey if Ferrari hadn't been a lot more aligned with the teams then this could be seen as an opportunity to get their stakes raised as their car has been talked about as potentially unreliable. 7 new engines through the season may result in 7 wins, followed by team-mate picking up the other wins of the season. Lock-out all the other teams!!

But a better approach is for FOTA to run a points championship alongside the FIA. They could call it the Manufacturers Drivers Skills Championship (or something like that), to rate drivers for a separate championship, possibly run by a mag or something relative but slightly external. If you get my drift.

We just have to get rid od Mosely and Ecclestone ASAP.

#126 MarkWRX

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 03:57

The FIA, under the "leadership" of Max Mosley, is destroying F1. The sooner Max steps in front of a bus, gets voted out or otherwise leaves the FIA, the better.

#127 RiDE

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 05:22

I never did like drivers that 'cruise and collect' but this is too drastic.

#128 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 06:52

Originally posted by Stibbles


Having read your emails over the past few years I'm not surprised. You always want to be different.


I am certain that I have never send you any e-mails.

And it may be different to you, it is however close to what I have been promoting for several seasons, only 'my' system would count wins and nothing else, no points. In case there was a tie on wins, then and only then I would look at second places finishes, if there was a tie on second place finishes, then and only then I would look at third place finishes.

I obviously see the reasoning behind a number of the arguments against this new system, but I do not see it as proof that the apocalypse is upon us. And rather than go all ballistic on the idea, as some posters do (not you) (and the posters who agree with it), then accept that there different views and opinions on this matter. Neither Mosley, or any of the other members of the WMSC (if they were the ones deciding this) are morons, they are not out to ruin F1, they do not have motives of powergrabbing (apart from what all political animals have), they have visions and ideas about F1, it's future and it's future well being.

If the new rules are recanted this season, or next or in 10 years it is not a failure, it was a system which worked well, poorly or adequately and was then replaced with something else.

The past 30 years there have been many ways to award the WDC, and the WDC remain and none of the actual winners of the WDC are seriously questioned as undeserving.

My view on the NASCAR chase is that it changed a much better system, to a worse. But Jimmy Johnson can't complain, Gordon arguably can as he would have 2 championships more under the old rules. But does he? NO he does not, since the drivers race under and according to the rules at hand.

The reliability of F1 cars have become quite good, why am I supposed to think that a rule change in points scoring will suddenly have drivers fall of track left, right and center? On average there must be something like 15 finishers in each race the past couple of seasons, so positions do count, now we get a system where winning actually will mean exactly that.

Win and you win.

I like that idea, if it turns out not to work, then I have no problem in it being changed once more. But for now, I do like this idea.



:cool: :cool:

#129 peroa

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 06:56

The stuff you smoke is good man!

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

#130 hallo

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 07:04

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

Neither Mosley, or any of the other members of the WMSC (if they were the ones deciding this) are morons, they are not out to ruin F1, they do not have motives of powergrabbing (apart from what all political animals have),


But they have proven to be morons time after time. Just look at the qualifying system shambles we went through and are still going through. I could make a much longer list. You say they dont have motives of powergrabbing apart from what all political animals have, and thats the problem. They are typical political animals which is why they are so damaging.

#131 VresiBerba

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 07:34

Originally posted by ensign14
1964, 1988...

Eh, what :eek:

http://www.formula1....ts/driver/1988/

#132 airwise

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 07:52

Originally posted by Orin
So much for listening to the fans. Mosley pulled this one out of his arse.



:up:

What was all that BS about polling the fans?

Does anyone have the FIA email address?

Could we not organise a campaign of email complaints that loads his server up at least?

#133 VresiBerba

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 07:56

Originally posted by Dolph
You do of course realize that you are describing events that have never happened and are extremely unlikely to happen.

Yet it happened just like that 1 (ONE) race ago :rolleyes:

#134 ensign14

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 08:02

Originally posted by VresiBerba
Eh, what :eek:

http://www.formula1....ts/driver/1988/

Prost scored 105 points that season. Senna 94. However, for deciding the order in the World Championship, the driver could only count his best 11 scores. Ergo the champion was not the one with the most points. It rewarded race wins instead. I don't remember anyone complaining about that as most people thought the right man took the title. After all, he won most races.

#135 VresiBerba

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 08:32

Originally posted by ensign14
Prost scored 105 points that season. Senna 94. However, for deciding the order in the World Championship, the driver could only count his best 11 scores. Ergo the champion was not the one with the most points. It rewarded race wins instead. I don't remember anyone complaining about that as most people thought the right man took the title. After all, he won most races.

That's rubbish. You're counting points which for all intents and purposes you can't count. And really, that system was even worse than this.

#136 ensign14

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 09:06

Originally posted by VresiBerba
That's rubbish. You're counting points which for all intents and purposes you can't count. And really, that system was even worse than this.

How is it "rubbish" when it is factually true? Prost scored more points, but didn't win the title. It's only for the purpose of ranking championship positions that certain points were not counted.

If you want REALLY arbitrary, for a time you could count best results - but half had to be from the each half of the season...Alan Jones was mathematically out of it in 1979 after 6 races because he only had 4 points.

#137 peejay

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 09:09

This is stupid and embarrassing. I've watched F1 for 20 years and I'm not sure I'll bother now. Maybe the occasional race, as individual races, but the championship is ruined.

#138 VresiBerba

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 09:12

Originally posted by ensign14
How is it "rubbish" when it is factually true? Prost scored more points, but didn't win the title.

It's rubbish because you can't count Prost's points from 16 races when you're only allowed to do it from 11. What's fact is that Prost only had 78 points going into the last round while Senna had 84. prost could never reach 105 points, not ever! Unless you apply some extremely creative logic. All this assuming of course that the point-system was created prior to race 11 and not after race 16.

#139 as65p

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 09:16

Originally posted by ensign14

How is it "rubbish" when it is factually true? Prost scored more points, but didn't win the title. It's only for the purpose of ranking championship positions that certain points were not counted.


That system was crap too, period.

It was, however, consistent in itself, contrary to what we get now. In '88 the points lost counted for nothing, as far as the WDC ranking goes they were non-existent. Now we'll get points that don't count for the title, but for all other WDC positions they do. How screwed is that?

If you want REALLY arbitrary, for a time you could count best results - but half had to be from the each half of the season...Alan Jones was mathematically out of it in 1979 after 6 races because he only had 4 points.


And you think it's okay that we're now again moving towards scenarios like that?

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#140 peroa

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 09:18

Originally posted by as65p


That system was crap too, period.

It was, however, consistent in itself, contrary to what we get now. In '88 the points lost counted for nothing, as far as the WDC ranking goes they were non-existent. Now we'll get points that don't count for the title, but for all other WDC positions they do. How screwed is that?


Seriously screwed!

#141 as65p

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 09:25

Originally posted by peroa


Seriously screwed!


Indeed.

Come to think of it, imagine if a team decides a no.1 early on (as they all have to do to maximize their chances) and then suffers the same fate as Ferrari '99, losing their lead driver. All wins of their no.1 in vain, and the no.2 too far back on the wins count... there goes your season into the gutter regardless how good a car you had! :drunk:

#142 ensign14

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 09:41

Originally posted by as65p
And you think it's okay that we're now again moving towards scenarios like that?

How so? Under today's system Jones would not only have been in with a shout of the title, he would actually have won it. Although of course the rest of the title race would probably have panned out differently had drivers been going for wins as God intended rather than points as Committee decreed. Not least that Scheckter might have been ordered to let Villeneuve past at Monza and so on.

#143 ViMaMo

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 09:42

How many times did a driver with most wins, not win the championship?
Nigel Mansell 1986, 1987


WDC is won by: most wins or most podiums or most points. I would like to put a 50-50 basis for wins and consistency. More points for wins and podiums.


Still wondering why is FIA scratching its arse so much over '08 Brazil? Thats exactly the reason behind this mumbo jumbo. Maybe Montezemolo has had his feelings about it? I dont know why people still cry over it.... Hammy cruised/lucked to his WDC.

#144 primer

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 09:56

Originally posted by Dolph


You do of course realize that you are describing events that have never happened and are extremely unlikely to happen.


Some of the scenarios people are suggesting may be unlikely but they are not impossible. Someday it will happen. Before making such a drastic change the powers-that-be should have evaluated the impact from all possible angles. You do not make changes like these keeping in mind the best case scenario.

There was no need for such a drastic change, the FOTA suggestion was decent. Heck, the existing point system would be better than this....tripe.

#145 EvilPhil II

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 09:58

2 Comments;-

The new rules will create one car teams. i.e. Schumacher/Ferrari era tactics for all.

Secondly, the WDC will always now be the driver with the best car regardless of large numbers of mistakes made by the driver in half the races.

What it will do is prevent an Alonso from winning the WDC this season by simply scoring far more consistently in his 2nd rate car than the losers driving the 1st rate cars.

I can only conclude now that the FIA and FOM (Bernie) are working together on an objective to damage the sport to such a degree that a certain majority stake holder in FOM sells up and leaves...

#146 as65p

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 10:04

Originally posted by ensign14

How so? Under today's system Jones would not only have been in with a shout of the title, he would actually have won it. Although of course the rest of the title race would probably have panned out differently had drivers been going for wins as God intended rather than points as Committee decreed. Not least that Scheckter might have been ordered to let Villeneuve past at Monza and so on.


I was speaking generally about screwed , ill-logical scoring systems, and I think in that regard the new one is the worst ever seen, by a long shot.

How can it have been so hard to go for a nice, mathematically correct system at the same time putting whatever amount of emphasis desired on wins? 20-10-8, whatever. Same effect and not nearly as brain-shattering.

#147 Peter Perfect

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 10:13

Originally posted by as65p


Indeed.

Come to think of it, imagine if a team decides a no.1 early on (as they all have to do to maximize their chances) and then suffers the same fate as Ferrari '99, losing their lead driver. All wins of their no.1 in vain, and the no.2 too far back on the wins count... there goes your season into the gutter regardless how good a car you had! :drunk:


But it's the Drivers World Championship? No?;)

I honestly don't think too much of the new system, but the thing that worries me most is the lack of consultation. They seem to have gone out of their way to ignore other suggestions and not even float their ideas for public discussion.

#148 Ferrim

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 10:25

Originally posted by Peter Perfect
I honestly don't think too much of the new system, but the thing that worries me most is the lack of consultation. They seem to have gone out of their way to ignore other suggestions and not even float their ideas for public discussion.


That's the worst thing for me, too. :up:

BTW, couldn't FOTA make an agreement, before Melbourne, in the line of: "we are not going to take into account this rule of most wins for the WDC. Instead we'll keep working as if the 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 system was still in place for the WDC"? Then they could keep discussing behind the scenes and maybe forcing the FIA to step back...

#149 SpeedFanatic

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 10:29

New points system positives:
Drivers are going to have to fight for wins making races more fun to watch.
Teams are likely to take risks and aim for raw speed in expense of reliabity making races more unpredictables.
The playing field in the drivers side is going to be more leveled now, with the big names spread across the grid because teams with two good drivers are going to be in a disadvantage for the WDC.

Maybe it isn't too bad after all. So why no give it a chance a see how all this pans out.

#150 F1 Tor.

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 10:29

Talk about all or nothing. One of the things I enjoy watching are the races within a race. There's always multiple battles going on as people used to fight for points, and that has basically been destroyed as there's no real reason to give a shit if you're in the midfield. I'm trying really hard to give the people who run F1 the benefit of a doubt but I just can't see it working. I still liked the idea of having a greater gap between first and second and keeping the points between 2-8 the same with a point for pole position and also for fastest lap. Oh well. I'm going to get out of the way now so the bashing can continue. :lol: