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Is it time for FOTA to threaten a breakaway series?


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Poll: Is it time for FOTA to threaten a breakaway series? (194 member(s) have cast votes)

  1. Yes (156 votes [80.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.41%

  2. No (38 votes [19.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.59%

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#1 SCHUEYFAN

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 17:29

I think the time is coming very soon for FOTA to exert some leverage on the FIA, FOM, Bernie, CVC et al and to threaten a breakaway series. The point system fiasco is clearly the straw that broke my back, and hopefully that of FOTA's. I was a Max supporter a few years ago but he's out of control and is just itching to try and break their unity with these ridiculous ideas of late. The proposal for the budget cap is the work of a mad man with no lucid thought process going on. The Concord Agreement expires in 2011 I think, so they should all threaten to take their ball and play somewhere else to put pressure on these lunatics to play fair. The best outcome is to pressure CVC to sell the rights to F1 at fair market value, and surely all the teams combined can get the equity backing to raise the cash. I've been an F1 fan my whole but these last months have turned my stomach upside down.

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#2 JPW

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 17:32

Hey another thread on this great :D

#3 sblick

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 17:38

I think it is time. Mosley wants to leave his legacy as the one who saved Formula One. Bernie and him make it worse. It would be nice to see a franchise type set up. Similar capabilities computing and wind tunnel use and size. Just like a football team gets a new stadium every few years you upgrade the team. I think all revenues from TV and internet should be equal to all teams. Merchandise for the teams would be only thing not shared. How to handle the tracks I don't know? Track owner gets a % of gate or all the gate?
The worst part would be coming up with a budget? and rules. Do you need a commitee for rules or a strict budget and an all out formula?

#4 johnap

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 17:38

YES

Let Bernie, Max and the FIA have their spec pseudo-democracy subsidised series in countries that don't care about racing.

And let FOTA have a proper series in Europe, N/S.America, Australia and Japan (countries which care about racing) with technical freedom and innovation.

#5 giacomo

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 17:43

Originally posted by SCHUEYFAN
Is it time for FOTA to threaten a breakaway series?

Great idea. Currently we have a field of 20 cars. More than enough for two gripping and exciting racing series'.

Why not a third series exclusively for Red Bull sponsored cars?

#6 Boing 2

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 17:46

we might get lucky, the old pervert might choke in his gimp mask and save us all the hassle of a fight :)

#7 kar

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 17:58

No.

#8 schumi7x

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 18:00

What is it about this sport? Can you think of any other sport that has this constant, unrelenting, year after year, controversy and bickering between the sanctioning body and the participants of the sport? I sure can't.
Mosley has GOT TO GO! I think FOTA is so right on the money on most things these days. And for me, the points system is the absolute last straw. If the points system is not changed back to at least the way it was last year or heaven forbid improved by awarding the winner more points (12,8,6,4,3,2,1, etc.), then I really think that the teams should line up in Australia, take the warmup lap, and park the cars in the garage and then say "O.K. .... your move Mr. Mosley!"

#9 potmotr

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 18:00

Nah, just axe Mosley.

#10 Motormedia

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 18:02

The best thing would be if the fans broke away and started their own series. I have no hope whatsoever than any of the parties involved in F1 today are fit to run a series worthy of being called the pinnacle of motorsport.

#11 JPW

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 18:12

Originally posted by Motormedia
The best thing would be if the fans broke away and started their own series.

LOL competing in who can make the silliest and most hysterical posts or most posts in 24h, will there be qualifying? ;)

#12 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 19:03

Hello F1? Yes, this is the ghost of CART calling.

#13 undersquare

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 19:18

Not threaten, just do it. And not a breakaway - all 10 teams keep racing each other on Sundays, but without Bernie, CVC, $2.5bn of debt, or Max.

#14 Craven Morehead

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 19:33

Originally posted by undersquare
Not threaten, just do it. And not a breakaway - all 10 teams keep racing each other on Sundays, but without Bernie, CVC, $2.5bn of debt, or Max.


In an ideal world this would be the answer. Unfortunatley, I fear its all too complicated under the circumstances.

#15 Motormedia

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 19:37

FOTA breaks away, two to three seasons later we have open wheel DTM with two make grids. There's absolutely no one involved in F1 today, FIA, FOTA or Bernie, that is fit to run the sport. F1 is dead and gone. FOTA is not the second coming.

#16 Kif

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 19:55

Having seen the poll figures, it looks like I'm going to buck the trend on this one, despite strong reservations about the current state of the FIA, and moreso the meddling of Bernie Ecclestone, who once did good things but seems to be more like King Lear these days.

The American experience is an object lesson in the damage that can be caused by a major rift, with one set of very good drivers and teams not competing against another set of very good drivers and teams, and both suffering. "Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it" and all that. There is no guarantee that FOTA will run its 'F1' any more smoothly in the medium to long-term than it is being run today, and we might end up with FOTA itself splintering further down the line. With the FIA in play, FOTA is more likely to remain united with a single voice; a lesson learned from the GPWC/GPMA episode.

The current situation offers checks and balances over one group wielding too much power, the only problem being that two key figures on one side think it's a replay the 1980s. The FIA needs new blood without the history and personal ties, and have a less adversarial approach.

Is Barack Obama doing anything these days?

#17 Bouncing Pink Ball

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 20:26

^ The above.

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Hello F1? Yes, this is the ghost of CART calling.

^And this.

Seriously folks, the idea of a FOTA breakaway is not all that and then some. There's lots to be said for stability of a sort. Besides, doesn't todays news in the scoring changes battle show that sticking with the FIA but launching realistic appeals when needed can work?

#18 mattorgen

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 20:34

I see people here saying that the teams should set up own series to get away from the Max, Bernie and his debt of billions of dollars. But why? I understand that Max and his constant regulation changes is bad. I also understand that Bernie is getting too old to run this sport event but is it not true that he is paying the debt? The teams are not paying it so why is it a problem for them? They still get same money from F1 so why worry?

#19 undersquare

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 20:38

Originally posted by Craven Morehead


In an ideal world this would be the answer. Unfortunatley, I fear its all too complicated under the circumstances.


I think if they set it up for 2013, and really made their minds up, they wouldn't find it that hard. They need the right structures this time, that don't depend on having those one-in-a-billiion people like Max and Bernie to make it work. Then they just need circuits and TV contracts, the audience would still be here.

Max could prat about with his €30m spec series till he's blue in the face, no-one would notice.

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#20 Jedi_F1

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 20:41

NO!

F1 -> death!

FOTA series = F1!!!

FIA+FOM+FOTA = F1 ... but they need to learn to work together in a very constructive way!

Remember Champcar Vs Indycar... now they are back together.. but the damaged has been done!

Try to work together instead of splitting!!!

#21 johnap

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 22:36

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Hello F1? Yes, this is the ghost of CART calling.


ahem, its was Tony George who shut CART out of Indy. Both needed each other. CART was great but the management was awful.

History lesson over, back on topic.

#22 Craven Morehead

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 22:43

Originally posted by mattorgen
I see people here saying that the teams should set up own series to get away from the Max, Bernie and his debt of billions of dollars. But why? I understand that Max and his constant regulation changes is bad. I also understand that Bernie is getting too old to run this sport event but is it not true that he is paying the debt? The teams are not paying it so why is it a problem for them? They still get same money from F1 so why worry?


The teams are payed a disproportionally small amount of the income, that's a large part of the problem. If Bernie wasn't taking the majority, then they would hardly be getting the 'same' money.

#23 Craven Morehead

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 22:47

Originally posted by undersquare


I think if they set it up for 2013, and really made their minds up, they wouldn't find it that hard. They need the right structures this time, that don't depend on having those one-in-a-billiion people like Max and Bernie to make it work. Then they just need circuits and TV contracts, the audience would still be here.

Max could prat about with his €30m spec series till he's blue in the face, no-one would notice.


Yes I could see this working. I really believe the fans would go wherever Ferrari & McLaren et al are. Max's stupid series full of unknowns wouldn't really hold much interest to the worldwide audience. I think a three/ four year time frame as you've called for would be quite reasonable. :up: The teams have shown that they can work together for the good of the whole. There's really no need for the Nazi pervert or the evil dwarf. They'd need to call it something else I suppose, Bernie prolly has all the rights to F1 sewn up, doesn't he?

#24 krapmeister

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 23:05

Unfortunately now would be the worst time possible for the teams (ie car manufacturers) to go and start up a rival series...

They won't be breaking away, but if its a bad time to start a new series its a good time to be banding together and standing up to the FIA/FOM.

Bernie/CVC has a mountain of debt at a time when debt is bad, and therefore will be under pressure maintain 'the show' - the teams (FOTA) can use this to their advantage...

#25 Phucaigh

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 23:08

If the teams stay united and left as a group then it would work successfully, I mean it would be the FIA's F1 with teams like team Antarctica sponsored by greenpeace to highlight melting ice, team wind energy who will blow a lot of hot air, the surf's up team who use wave energy, F1 will run on biofuels to make sure some extra people starve as Max who has changed the rules to become the lifelong president of the FIA talks about teams producing bicycle relevant technology as speeds were cut for safety after cars had to run on three tyres to cut costs. The series ends up a glorified tricycle racing series.....

If FOTA moved as a group it would be very successful.

#26 Rob

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 11:48

Originally posted by Phucaigh
If FOTA moved as a group it would be very successful.


I imagine Bernie would be a little peeved given in his contract he has to provide at least x cars and would have none whatsoever.

#27 duke_toaster

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 11:57

I don't think FOTA would be stupid enough to go for a breakaway GPWC or anything similar. A CART-style split could happen, and they wouldn't have the big name races. The world cannot sustain two F1s, and both would kill each other.

However, what FOTA should do is do two things. Agree on a candidate to replace Mosley when his election comes up later this year, and lobby like hell. The second one would be a ballsy one that would require a lot of wonga - attempting to purchase Formula One Management from CVC, and then give each team an equal share (like the NFL). That would require a fair bit of wedge upfront, but the teams would - well - all of the money that Bernie now gets. Might not work, but it could be worth a try.

With the current economic climate and Max coming up for probable replacement, FOTA should act.

#28 Rob

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 12:00

Originally posted by duke_toaster
I don't think FOTA would be stupid enough to go for a breakaway GPWC or anything similar. A CART-style split could happen, and they wouldn't have the big name races. The world cannot sustain two F1s, and both would kill each other.


The FIA does not own the Grands Prix. For instance, the British Grand Prix belongs to the MSA, Britain's national motorsport authority. If FOTA could persuade the MSA to switch, the British Grand Prix could be run as a FOTA event. Much like the 1980 Spanish Grand Prix was run as a FOCA rather than FIA event.

#29 Madras

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 12:09

How long does Ferrari's contract with Bernie last?

I'm in favour of leaving CVC with nothing but an empty shell.

#30 Dolph

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 12:41

Stop with the politics, please.

#31 primer

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 13:45

Yes.

#32 F1Fanatic.co.uk

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 13:51

Absolutely not. It must be avoided at all costs, a complete last resort. Look at what happened to Indy Car racing when they did this.

It's unrealistic to imagine there might be a clean break where all the teams magically migrate to a new championship running on more interesting circuits etc...

We would have half the teams in F1 and half in 'The FOTA world championship' or whatever, and pretty soon both would be on their knees.

Be careful what you wish for.

#33 Montoya1

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 14:00

Originally posted by schumi7x
[B]What is it about this sport? Can you think of any other sport that has this constant, unrelenting, year after year, controversy and bickering between the sanctioning body and the participants of the sport? I sure can't.

You would if you had more than superficial knowledge of other sports.

#34 brunopascal

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 14:10

No!

I for one like the FOTA proposals for the sport, and I wish they continue working united to improve F1.
A breakaway series, though, would devalue F1 or whatever would take its place.

#35 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 14:22

Originally posted by Rob


The FIA does not own the Grands Prix. For instance, the British Grand Prix belongs to the MSA, Britain's national motorsport authority. If FOTA could persuade the MSA to switch, the British Grand Prix could be run as a FOTA event. Much like the 1980 Spanish Grand Prix was run as a FOCA rather than FIA event.


National Grand Prix is whatever the highest race is in that country. Technically ACCUS could host the United States Grand Prix and run it to Indycar rules. So could FOTA, but with any rules package. However if the FIA series had a race in America, it would be the United States Grand Prix and no other series could claim it.

#36 undersquare

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 14:46

Originally posted by F1Fanatic.co.uk
Absolutely not. It must be avoided at all costs, a complete last resort. Look at what happened to Indy Car racing when they did this.

It's unrealistic to imagine there might be a clean break where all the teams magically migrate to a new championship running on more interesting circuits etc...

We would have half the teams in F1 and half in 'The FOTA world championship' or whatever, and pretty soon both would be on their knees.

Be careful what you wish for.


The way I see it, Max and Bernie are reuniting against the threat of FOTA. The teams don't like Max, the pervert thing and the how he rules with fear and favour in a corrupt way. I suspect Monty, his main ally, was completely turned off by the spankgate saga. Bernie obviously takes half the money and isn't going to give them any more because he can't. The debt means no more money, no North America race, no British race probably, but a race in the UAE with no car market and 17 spectators.

So Max is setting up the €30m spec option as a fallback against the teams leaving. He needs new teams so that he'll have some left if the FOTA teams all leave.

But until and unless he can get them, it won't be a "split" - FOTA can walk away from the debt and Max, and the racing will simply be under new management.

#37 Fortymark

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 14:54

I really think a breakaway "F1" series could work.
Why not base it on the CART/INDY concept of having 1 or 2 chassis
and different engines.
No costly aero development, no costly and dangerous KERS shit.
Just clean good "old school" motor racing with V12:s, V10:s, V8:s
and turbo engines, in a beautiful car ala early F1 -90:ies. Of course having some regulations that equals
the advantages of each concept.
Full grid of 24-26 cars, paddock access, racing at Spa every year, etc etc
Free "Bernie vision", cheap tickets...

For the manufactors they "only" need to buy a chassis, put their engine
in it and let a racing team handle it. We are talking about maybe 1/10th-2/10:th of the costs
compared to having >500 employees at a budget of >200 million euro..
Let also the teams get 90% of the income.

#38 Phucaigh

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 14:55

If the FOTA teams were to set up their own series what teams does that leave with the FIA's F1?

Who is to say the new teams like the proposed US team won't become a member of FOTA?

The fact is F1 with none of the present teams is a dead F1, people would want to watch the FOTA series with all the current teams.
I don't see it being like the split in open wheel racing that happened in the past in the US, there is currently a lot of unity between the teams when it comes to taking on the FIA and Bernie/FOM.

#39 GerardF1

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 15:23

The whole FIA/CVC/FOTA world has become like a bad marriage. And like any bad marriage there is plenty of blame to go around.

And also like any bad marriage - it needs to have a separation followed by a divorce.

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#40 le chat noir

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 15:35

Originally posted by GerardF1
The whole FIA/CVC/FOTA world has become like a bad marriage. And like any bad marriage there is plenty of blame to go around.

And also like any bad marriage - it needs to have a separation followed by a divorce.


"There are three people in this marriage."

#41 Rob

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 15:48

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


National Grand Prix is whatever the highest race is in that country. Technically ACCUS could host the United States Grand Prix and run it to Indycar rules. So could FOTA, but with any rules package. However if the FIA series had a race in America, it would be the United States Grand Prix and no other series could claim it.


Not quite correct. In 1980, the FIA was scheduled to run the Spanish Grand Prix when the RACE (Royal Automobile Club Espana) told the FIA that FOCA would be running the Spanish Grand Prix instead. If the FIA had a race in America but ACCUS was letting someone else run the United States Grand Prix then the FIA would need a new moniker for their race.

#42 ExcessIsBest

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 16:22

F1 needs international sanction to maintain continuity and legitimacy. What is needed is a new FIA president who has broader interests than feeding his bloated ego. I truly believe in the "triad" proposed by FOTA. FOTA has shown that they diverse interests can make compromises and reach consensus.
The FIA needs a rational leader who can bring the parties together, not a wanna-be NAZI who wants to be supreme dictator of motorsport.

#43 EVO2

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 23:32

The commercial rights to F1 are the commercial rights to the "FIA Formula One World Championship". As a result of this, F1 could not be run under any other governing body and so the only way for the Teams to distance themselves completely from the FIA and Commercial rights holder, CVC, would be to start a new series.

The deal is not going to expire any time soon because the FIA ( MM ) gave Bernie a 100 year deal to run "F1"

The cost of putting on a F1 race is currently so high that we will lose all the classic races in favour of more computer game circuits unless the current Commercial rights holders are ditched.

This can happen from 2012 when the teams current contract with CVC ends.

But FOTA can only escape the clutches of CVC by breaking with the FIA as well.

It seems to me that the teams are in by far the stronger position : F1 IS the teams that make up FOTA.
Without them F1 is just one letter and a number. Max and Bernie need to remember this.

Max can bring in as many $30m teams as he likes but they could never hold together a credible "F1" series in the eyes of the public if FOTA decides to take control of it's own destiny.

Max and Bernie will find it very much more difficult to drive a wedge between the teams now that Ferrari are at peace with their rivals ( largely as a result of their own change of leadership ).


All the teams know that they only need to stick together until 2012 and they can end up running their own show and keeping the lion's share of the revenue.

This could result in lower ticket prices and safeguard the European races.

#44 Bi-Polar Bear

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 00:31

As goes Ferrari, so goes F1.

Every other team could depart and be replaced, but if Ferrari says "Goodbye", that will be the end of F1 and the FIA as we know them.

Luca DeMontezomololololo seems to rather enjoy being the spokesperson for FOTA and twitting Bernie and Max. But until Ferrari decides to upset the apple cart, things will stay pretty much the same and all the blather about a breakaway series will be much doo doo about nothing.

#45 Boing 2

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 10:08

with CART it was complicated by George owning one of the most famous races in the world and by far the biggest name in amercan racing, without that indycar would have never gotten off the ground.


With F1, what does the FIA hold apart from the name? if anything the most iconic races are the ones getting the least love. How many times has Spa been threatened with removal from the calendar? there's no indy this year and no Monteal. Silverstones a goner soon, suzukas gone and melbourne gets it's fair share of grief.

if the teams did make a break they could grab those circuits easily and with Ferrari on their side Monza would soon follow. In fact with no debt to service, the teams could offer european tracks a sensible cotract that actually gave them a chance to turn a profit without governmant subsidies. How long would Monaco embarass itself running a grid full of low price bargain basement unknowns?

i don't think putting a calendar together would be an issue and with a strong calendar and a strong grid i don't see how the FIA could mount a challenge, they simply don't own anything of any value.

another point to consider would be that if FOTA did make a breakaway announcement and lay the blame squarley at the door of Mosley it may actually be enough to stop him getting re-elected at which point they could reconcile with a more sane president.

downsides? you lose the F1 name, also, you can get 100% of the commercial money but it'll be 100% of much less as the contracts will need to be cheaper to secure a calendar and you're signing them in a global recession which weakens your asking price, sums will need to be done carefully to figure that one out.

all in all i say go for it.

#46 Darrenj

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 12:55

I must agree with EVO2... very good points.
But would Bernie and the FIA let the lucrative franchise slip through their fingers that easily? I believe that they have already seen this writing on the wall and are possibly in behind the scene cavorting with sponsors, manufactures and even teams as we speak.
The entire F1 ("Eff One") FIA CVC debacle is slowly reeling towards a path of self destruction. In my lowly opinion its what's needed. :smoking:


One wonders if any one in the motor sport sphere actually takes the rantings of this and other forums seriously?


I that were really the case..... :stoned:

#47 Orin

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 12:13

FOTA doesn't need FIA or FOM, both of which are more interested in their own power/money struggles than the sport. FIA is a joke organisation, a toothless body which simply follows whatever the president decides; its only worth is as an impartial and competent adjudicator, unfortunately it can't even manage that. Whereas FOM robs the sport of 50% of its revenues and bankrupts the circuits. Neither organisation is working in the sport's best interests.

#48 Orin

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 12:25

Originally posted by Kif
Having seen the poll figures, it looks like I'm going to buck the trend on this one, despite strong reservations about the current state of the FIA, and moreso the meddling of Bernie Ecclestone, who once did good things but seems to be more like King Lear these days.

The American experience is an object lesson in the damage that can be caused by a major rift, with one set of very good drivers and teams not competing against another set of very good drivers and teams, and both suffering. "Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it" and all that. There is no guarantee that FOTA will run its 'F1' any more smoothly in the medium to long-term than it is being run today, and we might end up with FOTA itself splintering further down the line. With the FIA in play, FOTA is more likely to remain united with a single voice; a lesson learned from the GPWC/GPMA episode.


It's a different situation. The teams and drivers need not split into two series, I think everyone would side with FOTA, provided they looked after the independents. FOTA would need to create an F1 and F2 feeder series and run them in step to ensure the talent of tomorrow isn't syphoned off to the FIA/FOM offering. It would be expensive to set-up but it wouldn't take long to recoup the initial expense. With FOTA keeping the driver talent and the richest manufacturers, FIA/FOM would have little chance of fielding a successful challenger.

#49 BWL

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 05:13

Anything is better than having the corrupt FIA/FOM organizations run F1. As far as I am concerned they are adding little value and are only interested in lining their pockets with as much money as they can. It is pretty clear to me that they are addicted to the power and that they will not be relinquishing their authority any time soon.

My message to FOTA: Bring the biggest gun you can find, load it with plenty of bullets and just pull the trigger. You do not need either Bernie or Max.

#50 Muz Bee

Muz Bee
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Posted 25 March 2009 - 23:59

:cool:

Wait up guys, the "sport" of F1 has somehow survived ten years of Max's tainted dictatorship and Bernard's extreme capitalism. Somehow I think both are going to fall off the perch very soon in one way or another. Max had to do the big climb down this week over the thinly disguised Bernie's Gold Medals concept. The teams are looking cohesive although MM will be working hard to undermine that. With Flav and Frank and Luca etc now singing from the same songbook theree is indeed hope that Mosley will be convinced he will face some tough times if he stays beyond this year. I would not underestimate his desperation for continuing power but the smarts will surely be looking for a two-pronged sweetheart retirement deal (some grand sounding official role creation) and the threat of one helluva s#^&- fight with one of his old "friends".

For once I am optimistic that the game (as far as MM is concerned, could be just about up). The feeling I think among teams may just be that as well. The consequences of breakaway are horrendous. As was subtly mentioned here - the ghost of CART. Let us not consider a repeat of that tale of woe.


:)