65 replies to this topic

[Keke Rosberg]

Hi all
I'm working on a project and have the following questions about the 1985 F1 season, I hope you'll be able to help me.

1. Renault ran 3 cars at the German GP (Nurburgring), do you know what's the reason for doing that? their regular drivers was Warwick and Tambay, but got Hesnault in for that one race.

2. Tyrrell had 1 car fitted with a Ford engine and 1 car fitted with a Renault engine for 3 of the races (Britain/German/Austrian GP) during the middle of the season when they were transferring from the Ford power plant to Renault - do you know why they only had 1 car with Renault engine? was it due to lack of Renualt engines or their 2nd chassis was not ready to accommodate the change? Also how did they determine which driver would use the Renault engine in those 3 races? Brundle had it in Britain and Bellof had it in Germany and Austria.

3. Frank Williams replaced Rosberg with Piquet in 86, but do you know if Frank had always wanted to hire Piquet whether Rosberg move or not? Did Frank approach Piquet before or after Keke informed him that he's moving to McLaren the following season?

4. 2 French teams, Ligier and Renault, boycotted the South African GP, what was the problem between the French and the S. African people? or was it purely co-incident that both team were French? (I think Beatrice also missed the race after pulling out on Sunday - not sure if there's any other teams withdrawn)

5. Tyrrell didn't replace Bellof until the European GP (Brands Hatch) with Capelli, that's 2 races after Bellof's death - so Tyrrell only ran 1 car at both the Italian and Belgian GP. My information says they wanted to wait until after Bellof's funeral took place (I believe that the Monday after the Monza race), but why there was still no replacement for the race at Spa? which took place on the weekend right afterward.

6. Autocourse says there was supposed to be a race in New York but was then cancelled (replaced by the European race at Brands Hatch), do you know what's the reason for the cancellation and any idea of when it was original schedule to happen? or any information is appreciated.

7. There was a rumor that Brabham approached Lauda for the 86 season, do you know if that was before or after Lauda made his announcement at the Austrian GP? or near season end?

a lot of questions, they seem to be "silly" or unimportant, but I actually found them interesting ..... I hope you can give me some insights, thank you very much.

it's likely I'll have more questions later on.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg
1. Renault ran 3 cars at the German GP (Nurburgring), do you know what's the reason for doing that? their regular drivers was Warwick and Tambay, but got Hesnault in for that one race.

For television purposes. Hesnault's car was fitted with a camera, but it didn't last very long (the car that is). The previous year Renault had given Philippe Streiff a GP debut in a third car. A subtle difference was the colour of the numbers and the flashes on the wings changed - on Streiff's they were green, on Hesnault's white.

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg
2. Tyrrell had 1 car fitted with a Ford engine and 1 car fitted with a Renault engine for 3 of the races (Britain/German/Austrian GP) during the middle of the season when they were transferring from the Ford power plant to Renault - do you know why they only had 1 car with Renault engine? was it due to lack of Renualt engines or their 2nd chassis was not ready to accommodate the change? Also how did they determine which driver would use the Renault engine in those 3 races? Brundle had it in Britain and Bellof had it in Germany and Austria.

The drivers got the better engines for their "home" races. IIRC there were too few Renaults.

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg

4. 2 French teams, Ligier and Renault, boycotted the South African GP, what was the problem between the French and the S. African people? or was it purely co-incident that both team were French? (I think Beatrice also missed the race after pulling out on Sunday - not sure if there's any other teams withdrawn)

The French government leaned on them to support the international boycott of apartheid; given that both were pretty heavily subsidized by the French tax-payer...

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg
6. Autocourse says there was supposed to be a race in New York but was then cancelled (replaced by the European race at Brands Hatch), do you know what's the reason for the cancellation and any idea of when it was original schedule to happen? or any information is appreciated.

A New York street GP was rumoured for aaaages, ISTR it was on the '83 calendar, I'm not sure it ever got any further than hype.

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg
7. There was a rumor that Brabham approached Lauda for the 86 season, do you know if that was before or after Lauda made his announcement at the Austrian GP? or near season end?

Renault certainly approached him, Lauda suggested an outrageous rate of pay which Renault accepted, but then the French tax-payer reared its ugly head...

[LB]

The New York Grand Prix was meant to be at Flushing Meadows in 1983 but went down the toilet 10 weeks before so Brands took over with a European Grand Prix and I got to go to my first GP woo!

[Keke Rosberg]

Originally posted by ensign14

For television purposes. Hesnault's car was fitted with a camera, but it didn't last very long (the car that is). The previous year Renault had given Philippe Streiff a GP debut in a third car. A subtle difference was the colour of the numbers and the flashes on the wings changed - on Streiff's they were green, on Hesnault's white.


The drivers got the better engines for their "home" races. IIRC there were too few Renaults.


The French government leaned on them to support the international boycott of apartheid; given that both were pretty heavily subsidized by the French tax-payer...


A New York street GP was rumoured for aaaages, ISTR it was on the '83 calendar, I'm not sure it ever got any further than hype.


Renault certainly approached him, Lauda suggested an outrageous rate of pay which Renault accepted, but then the French tax-payer reared its ugly head...

thanks!!!
1. that seems to be consistent with the info I have, however, why didn't they simply put the onboard camera on Warwick of Tambay's car? was this an experiement initiatived by FOCA to test out on-board camera technology? to do it on the 3rd car, was it due to negative impact on aerodynamic of the car? or weight?

2. as for the Tyrrell drivers got the Renault engine for their home race, that's what I thought of as well, however, for the Austrian GP, did they determine it by a flip of coin? or did they use a more "scientific way" to determine?

[Keke Rosberg]

Originally posted by LB
The New York Grand Prix was meant to be at Flushing Meadows in 1983 but went down the toilet 10 weeks before so Brands took over with a European Grand Prix and I got to go to my first GP woo!

same for 1985? at Flushing Meadows? sorry for my ignorance, never heard of the place.

[PeterElleray]

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg



thanks!!!
1. that seems to be consistent with the info I have, however, why didn't they simply put the onboard camera on Warwick of Tambay's car? was this an experiement initiatived by FOCA to test out on-board camera technology? to do it on the 3rd car, was it due to negative impact on aerodynamic of the car? or weight?

probably - i was bergers engineer at arrows at the time and AJackie O was approached by FOM or whatever Bernies' outfit was called then to run the same camera at the next race , austria - VOR ZE LOKAL HERO - and when it was produced, with great ceremony, it turned out to be THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG.....

Needless to say Gerhard ran without the ballast and drag of the camera - which, would, in any case have got no further than the start line shunt he then became a part of...

peter

[LB]

6. The Spa GP had been rescheduled from earlier in the year and qualifying had already been run before the race was delayed due to track surface problems. Bellof had been part of qualifying and I assume qualified. Probably making him the only driver to qualify for a race a few weeks after his death

[RStock]

Originally posted by ensign14




A New York street GP was rumoured for aaaages, ISTR it was on the '83 calendar, I'm not sure it ever got any further than hype.

I believe it was squashed by the threat of an injunction . But Bernie still wants a race in NYC , and Flushing Meadows was mentioned again (along with a few other NYC sites) as recently as just a few years ago .

[Keke Rosberg]

Originally posted by LB
6. The Spa GP had been rescheduled from earlier in the year and qualifying had already been run before the race was delayed due to track surface problems. Bellof had been part of qualifying and I assume qualified. Probably making him the only driver to qualify for a race a few weeks after his death

I knew the Spa race was postponed, but never thought of this ....

[Keke Rosberg]

Originally posted by PeterElleray


probably - i was bergers engineer at arrows at the time and AJackie O was approached by FOM or whatever Bernies' outfit was called then to run the same camera at the next race , austria - VOR ZE LOKAL HERO - and when it was produced, with great ceremony, it turned out to be THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG.....

Needless to say Gerhard ran without the ballast and drag of the camera - which, would, in any case have got no further than the start line shunt he then became a part of...

peter

thank you so much Peter !!!
Great to have contributions from an insider, any stories you can share with us regarding the Arrows team or Berger/Boutsen in 1985? It'll greatly help my little project.

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg



2. as for the Tyrrell drivers got the Renault engine for their home race, that's what I thought of as well, however, for the Austrian GP, did they determine it by a flip of coin? or did they use a more "scientific way" to determine?

Germany and Austria are German speaking, well sort of German at least. Think that is the science.

[nmansellfan]

Originally posted by ensign14

For television purposes. Hesnault's car was fitted with a camera, but it didn't last very long (the car that is). The previous year Renault had given Philippe Streiff a GP debut in a third car. A subtle difference was the colour of the numbers and the flashes on the wings changed - on Streiff's they were green, on Hesnault's white.

I've got this distant memory that Hesnault also had an onboard camera on his Brabham earlier in the year at Imola, is my memory playing tricks on me? I haven't seen the race since I was 7 years old, i'll have to search for it. Maybe he only ran it in practice, certainly at the German GP the way James Hunt and Tony Jardine (subbing for Murray Walker in the commentary box) were talking, it was the first time an onboard TV camera had been successfully used on an F1 car. For all of 9 laps. Good picture though! Peter, I can definately see why Mr. Oliver declined the request to use the kit on your man's Arrows, it was a monster!

[PeterElleray]

Originally posted by nmansellfan


I've got this distant memory that Hesnault also had an onboard camera on his Brabham earlier in the year at Imola, is my memory playing tricks on me? I haven't seen the race since I was 7 years old, i'll have to search for it. Maybe he only ran it in practice, certainly at the German GP the way James Hunt and Tony Jardine (subbing for Murray Walker in the commentary box) were talking, it was the first time an onboard TV camera had been successfully used on an F1 car. For all of 9 laps. Good picture though! Peter, I can definately see why Mr. Oliver declined the request to use the kit on your man's Arrows, it was a monster!

no, Jackie was all for it ! It was dave wass and me that had hysterics when we saw it - we hadnt even schemed up a mount for it when we got there...

peter

[Victor_RO]

Originally posted by nmansellfan


I've got this distant memory that Hesnault also had an onboard camera on his Brabham earlier in the year at Imola, is my memory playing tricks on me? I haven't seen the race since I was 7 years old, i'll have to search for it.

I've seen the race somewhere and Hesnault did have an onboard camera on his Brabham. However, the director never used it, and the Brabham didn't last long enough.

[Vicuna]

Q3 is the one I'm interested in

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Vicuna

Q3 is the one I'm interested in

I could be miles off the mark here, but something at the back of my mind tells me that Rosberg didn't fancy having Piquet as a team-mate, so effectively made the decision for Frank by leaving.

As I said, that could be completely wrong...

[Keke Rosberg]

anyone knows where I can purchase a complete set of 1985 Autosport or Grand Prix International magazines?

I tried both EWA or SimonLewis, but they don't seem to have it, and ebay only has individual issues.

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg
1. Renault ran 3 cars at the German GP (Nurburgring), do you know what's the reason for doing that? their regular drivers was Warwick and Tambay, but got Hesnault in for that one race.

2. Tyrrell had 1 car fitted with a Ford engine and 1 car fitted with a Renault engine for 3 of the races (Britain/German/Austrian GP) during the middle of the season when they were transferring from the Ford power plant to Renault - do you know why they only had 1 car with Renault engine? was it due to lack of Renualt engines or their 2nd chassis was not ready to accommodate the change? Also how did they determine which driver would use the Renault engine in those 3 races? Brundle had it in Britain and Bellof had it in Germany and Austria.

3. Frank Williams replaced Rosberg with Piquet in 86, but do you know if Frank had always wanted to hire Piquet whether Rosberg move or not? Did Frank approach Piquet before or after Keke informed him that he's moving to McLaren the following season?

4. 2 French teams, Ligier and Renault, boycotted the South African GP, what was the problem between the French and the S. African people? or was it purely co-incident that both team were French? (I think Beatrice also missed the race after pulling out on Sunday - not sure if there's any other teams withdrawn)

5. Tyrrell didn't replace Bellof until the European GP (Brands Hatch) with Capelli, that's 2 races after Bellof's death - so Tyrrell only ran 1 car at both the Italian and Belgian GP. My information says they wanted to wait until after Bellof's funeral took place (I believe that the Monday after the Monza race), but why there was still no replacement for the race at Spa? which took place on the weekend right afterward.

6. Autocourse says there was supposed to be a race in New York but was then cancelled (replaced by the European race at Brands Hatch), do you know what's the reason for the cancellation and any idea of when it was original schedule to happen? or any information is appreciated.

7. There was a rumor that Brabham approached Lauda for the 86 season, do you know if that was before or after Lauda made his announcement at the Austrian GP? or near season end?

a lot of questions, they seem to be "silly" or unimportant, but I actually found them interesting ..... I hope you can give me some insights, thank you very much.

1. The camera was from French electronic giant Thomson. Renault at the time was rumored to quit F1 as business was slow. Possibly a move to show they where not leaving F1. Remember that Renault did do stunts to attract any sponsor: at the Dutch GP the Renaults were very well on the pace (running on low) fuel and retiring early on in the race.

2. Tyrrell had two 014 chassis ready at those GP's. So no shortage of chassis.

3. Williams relation with Rosberg was rather poor before the start of 1985. Especially the signing of Mansell didn't do good. Piquet just asked too much in BE's eyes and was in talks with Williams (which BE did not suspect). Piquet announced it around the italian GP so possibly all went very quick after Lauda's announcement.

4. Both Renault and Ligier pleaded Force Majeure. RAM also did not go, most likelt due to finances. Zakspeed did not run as they were only entered for the European rounds. Some sponsor decals had been removed on cars and helmet, McLaren even changed the Marlboro painted dayglo angle into an arc. SA was under international pressure to change internal politics, many companies did not want to be involved in that.

5. Ken Tyrrell even thought about only fielding one car for the rest of the season. Elf proposed him to enter a second car for on of the Ferte brothers with the Thomson camera. Tyrrell took up talents Capelli (after watching him at Donington F3000) and Streiff for the last races.

6. New York was planned for September 22nd. The organisars asked the FISA to postpone until 1986 in June (!). There was also a European GP planned for October 13th albeit in Rome. So the Euro GP did not replace the NY race at first. The season was to end with Australia on November 3rd and SA on November 16th. The 1985 was thus shortened as the SA did take place on october 19th.
Brands John Webb anticipated around may 1985 to do the Euro GP.

7. Lauda's announcement triggered Rosberg to move as well as Piquet, leaving Ecclestone embarrassed with no top driver (having heavy sponsor Pirelli and Olivetti). However he later signed Patrese and De Angelis. Lauda was not at all motivated and this showed even before the German GP. At Monza Lauda did have talks with Ecclestone and Murray. However even the 5 million Pirelli offered could not motivate the Rat.

[LB]

Originally posted by LB
6. The Spa GP had been rescheduled from earlier in the year and qualifying had already been run before the race was delayed due to track surface problems. Bellof had been part of qualifying and I assume qualified. Probably making him the only driver to qualify for a race a few weeks after his death

Actually thinking about that it sadly happens at Indy, Scott Brayton being the obvious one that leaps to mind.

[WGD706]

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg


same for 1985? at Flushing Meadows? sorry for my ignorance, never heard of the place.

Flushing Meadows–Corona Park, often referred to as Flushing Meadow Park or Flushing Meadows Park, is located in the New York City borough of Queens. It was created as the site of the 1939/1940 New York World's Fair and also hosted the 1964/1965 New York World's Fair.

From the new York Times, May 10, 1983
Landscaping changes necessary to permit a Grand Prix Formula One auto race through Flushing Meadows-Corona Park in Queens were approved unanimously yesterday by the City Art Commission. The commission reviews all such alterations of public land.
The panel approved the construction of a racing roadway two and a half miles long and 35 feet wide by the New York Grand Prix private promoting concern.
The commission said it had acted with the understanding that the park was ''uniquely appropriate'' for the race and that its vote was not setting a a precedent.
Bronson Binger, assistant parks commissioner, said that the approval represented the ''last major hurdle'' the promoters faced and that construction might begin in a week.
The race is to be held Sept. 24.


October 1940 saw Automobile Racing Club of America's last race, the World’s Fair Grand Prix, at Flushing Meadows, New York. The race was run on a tight course around various nations’ pavilions. Miles Collier took his Riley Brooklands out of storage for the event and started installing a Mercury Flathead V-8 engine but ran out of time and ended up driving Briggs Cunningham’s Bu-Merc Special, a special Buick chassis and modified Buick straight-8 engine, under a modified lightweight Mercedes SSK body. Miles was up against some very fast machinery, but he worked his way up to second behind Frank Griswald in an Alfa Romeo grand prix car. Three laps from the finish Miles left the course and hit a lamppost. Sam Collier in a new MG finished 5th overall and 1st in class.

[subh]

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
5. Ken Tyrrell even thought about only fielding one car for the rest of the season. Elf proposed him to enter a second car for on of the Ferte brothers with the Thomson camera. Tyrrell took up talents Capelli (after watching him at Donington F3000) and Streiff for the last races.

Streiff was available in South Africa because of Ligier’s absence, and presumably his familiarity with the Renault engine had something to do with his selection?

[Keke Rosberg]

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos


1. The camera was from French electronic giant Thomson. Renault at the time was rumored to quit F1 as business was slow. Possibly a move to show they where not leaving F1. Remember that Renault did do stunts to attract any sponsor: at the Dutch GP the Renaults were very well on the pace (running on low) fuel and retiring early on in the race.

thank you Arjan, the info you provided is very useful

I may have more questions later on.

[Keke Rosberg]

Originally posted by subh


Streiff was available in South Africa because of Ligier’s absence, and presumably his familiarity with the Renault engine had something to do with his selection?

that's right, because Strieff was back to the Ligier team at the next race at Adelaide and Capelli retook his place at Tyrrell and both finished well (3rd and 4th respectively)

btw - does anyone know how's the relationship between Laffite and Strieff? on the penultimate lap of the race at Adelaide, the two collided, and on screen, it looked like Laffite had deliberately turned into Strieff, as telling him that he's the #1 driver in the team and the youngster should stay behind. Luckily both survived the impact and went on to finish 2nd and 3rd.

did Strieff or Laffite say anything about the collision?

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg


that's right, because Strieff was back to the Ligier team at the next race at Adelaide and Capelli retook his place at Tyrrell and both finished well (3rd and 4th respectively)

btw - does anyone know how's the relationship between Laffite and Strieff? on the penultimate lap of the race at Adelaide, the two collided, and on screen, it looked like Laffite had deliberately turned into Strieff, as telling him that he's the #1 driver in the team and the youngster should stay behind. Luckily both survived the impact and went on to finish 2nd and 3rd.

did Strieff or Laffite say anything about the collision?

I think Streiff was described as being shamefaced after the race but by the time they got to the podium Happy Jacques had forgiven him.

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by subh


Streiff was available in South Africa because of Ligier’s absence, and presumably his familiarity with the Renault engine had something to do with his selection?

And presumably his big pot of gold compared to Capelli?

[rateus]

Originally posted by ghinzani


I think Streiff was described as being shamefaced after the race but by the time they got to the podium Happy Jacques had forgiven him.

My memory is that Streiff thought he was lapping Jacques, not racing him for position (certainly he didn't think they were on the same lap), hence his surprise when Jacques turned in on him.

Not so sure Laffite's reaction would have been the one I would dread - imagine Guy Ligier's response if a double podium had been lost...

[nmansellfan]

Originally posted by PeterElleray


no, Jackie was all for it ! It was dave wass and me that had hysterics when we saw it - we hadnt even schemed up a mount for it when we got there...

peter

Ah, a case of a very short lead time and no notice, then!

[nmansellfan]

Originally posted by Victor_RO


I've seen the race somewhere and Hesnault did have an onboard camera on his Brabham. However, the director never used it, and the Brabham didn't last long enough.

Thanks Victor, good to know I haven't gone completely senile at 30 years old, then.

Not wanting to hijack this very informative thread, but does anyone know why so few (if at all, trying to recall a 20 year old+ memory again) onboard camera's were used in the 1988 GP season? After watching Satoru Nakajima use one at every race in 1987, plus de Cesaris's rear mounted camera at Adelaide, I can't recall seeing any footage of cars running them the next year. Was it a dispute between Thompson and the FIA, (or did Fuji run the cameras after '86) or did no one want to run the camera because of the weight, drag etc? Or was it because the development of the camera took most of the year (when onboard cameras appeared in 1989, they were much smaller and used a streamlined cover).

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Twin Window

I could be miles off the mark here, but something at the back of my mind tells me that Rosberg didn't fancy having Piquet as a team-mate, so effectively made the decision for Frank by leaving.

As I said, that could be completely wrong...

I concur with that, I recall he was happy to stay team-mates with Noige, who he had come to respect, was more than happy to be Prosts team-mate as he was on friendly terms with him, but would not tolerate Piquet as he thought he was a jerk who would upset the teams harmony. Surprised he could walk with such large and accurate crystal balls! Off topic I believe Rosbergs biggest pal was Elio, no? No wonder he pretty much walked away at the end of 86, although I believe that was in his plans for some time before. 1 final year with the best team sponsored by his faveourite fags then off into the sunset.

[PeterElleray]

Originally posted by nmansellfan


Ah, a case of a very short lead time and no notice, then!

[fines]

Originally posted by ghinzani
I concur with that, I recall he was happy to stay team-mates with Noige, who he had come to respect, was more than happy to be Prosts team-mate as he was on friendly terms with him, but would not tolerate Piquet as he thought he was a jerk who would upset the teams harmony. Surprised he could walk with such large and accurate crystal balls! Off topic I believe Rosbergs biggest pal was Elio, no? No wonder he pretty much walked away at the end of 86, although I believe that was in his plans for some time before. 1 final year with the best team sponsored by his faveourite fags then off into the sunset.

I believe he was hell-bent on showing Prost his limits, though...

[Victor_RO]

Originally posted by nmansellfan
Not wanting to hijack this very informative thread, but does anyone know why so few (if at all, trying to recall a 20 year old+ memory again) onboard camera's were used in the 1988 GP season? After watching Satoru Nakajima use one at every race in 1987, plus de Cesaris's rear mounted camera at Adelaide, I can't recall seeing any footage of cars running them the next year. Was it a dispute between Thompson and the FIA, (or did Fuji run the cameras after '86) or did no one want to run the camera because of the weight, drag etc? Or was it because the development of the camera took most of the year (when onboard cameras appeared in 1989, they were much smaller and used a streamlined cover).

March ran an onboard camera on Gugelmin's car in Detroit, but that was the onboard camera's only appearance for '88.

[Keke Rosberg]

Hello everyone
thank you for your contributions - I've some additional questions.

8. At the beginning of the 85 season, Prost said that the Porsche TAG engine was 6 month behind development (short of power compare with BMW & Honda), do you have any idea what caused the delay? they were so dominant in 84, I wonder what caused the "setback".

9. Senna ran out of fuel at the San Marino GP, was there a read out error from his fuel gauge? or simply driver error by pushing too hard? There were so many drivers ran out of fuel, I find it hard to believe so many drivers made the same mistake though ....... or should this be classified as a mistake?

10. Why Ferrari's performance/reliability dropped off so much in the last third of the season, I believe they didn't score anything in the last 4-5 races.

thank you again

[ghinzani]

8. Not as big a budget, remember it was funded by TAG not Porsche per se.
9. There was talk of high ambient temperatures fooling the electronics but I dont know how much mileage there was in that. Senna, and then Johannson were both adamant that they were on target to finish when they both dropped out whilst leading. Farcical days.
10. Pushed their engines too hard I would say - engine development had been diluted by the stillborn 4 cylinder also. In hindsight they would have been better off concentrating on the V6.

[Bauble]

Autosport 1985 I'll have a look in the loft I might have a set there.

Senna running out of fuel? That was when there was a fuel limit for use in a race and a lot of people ran out during the final laps. Prior to that the teams could ensure they always had enough for the race distance and a slowing down lap, however, when thay were forced into an economy mode by the regulations it became a balance between power and petrol. The faster you went the more fuel you used so if it was a close run race the tendency was to push hard and hope for the best. Once a few people failed to get it right the teams developed better fuel guages so the driver knew the situation more precisely. I believe the winner ran out on the slowing down lap.

[Formula Once]

10. I worked with Alboreto's 1985 engineer years later and he said that in the end Ferrari lost its way a little. Power was an issue all year (especially combined with the fuel consumption and electronics), and by the time they got to the really quick tracks they lost out (look at their qualifying pace at Zeltweg, Zandvoort and even Monza). But also, he said, there were quite some handling issues all year long. The 1984-86 period was a poor one for Ferrari. A single 4-cilinder engine was built by the way.

[ensign14]

Yes and no. Prost crossed the line first, ran out of fuel on the slowing-down lap, and was DQ'd for being underweight. The 2 kilos of fuel burnt up on that half-a-lap proved crucial.

I remember the Beeb saying Elio de Angelis, who inherited the win, had the same weight problem, and provisionally calling Boutsen in the Arrows the winner.

[Slyder]

Originally posted by ensign14
Yes and no. Prost crossed the line first, ran out of fuel on the slowing-down lap, and was DQ'd for being underweight. The 2 kilos of fuel burnt up on that half-a-lap proved crucial.

I remember the Beeb saying Elio de Angelis, who inherited the win, had the same weight problem, and provisionally calling Boutsen in the Arrows the winner.

BBC actually reported on their highlights initially that Prost and De Angelis were DQed. But later on De Angelis was placed as the winner while Prost remained DQed.

Originally posted by Formula Once
10. I worked with Alboreto's 1985 engineer years later and he said that in the end Ferrari lost its way a little. Power was an issue all year (especially combined with the fuel consumption and electronics), and by the time they got to the really quick tracks they lost out (look at their qualifying pace at Zeltweg, Zandvoort and even Monza). But also, he said, there were quite some handling issues all year long. The 1984-86 period was a poor one for Ferrari. A single 4-cilinder engine was built by the way.

They definitely lost their way, because Alboreto was a true challenger, and might have won Monaco had Patrese and Piquet not crashed in front of him. But then Ferari simply imploded apallingly in the last 5 races, poor starting spots on 3 of them and retired on all 5. No question about it, they handed the title on a silver platter to Prost.

[fines]

Originally posted by ghinzani
8. Not as big a budget, remember it was funded by TAG not Porsche per se.

I believe there was a serious breakdown of relationship as TAG grew tired of footing the bill all the while Porsche was getting the credit for the wins! Remember, the engine was nominally a TAG, but most reports called it a Porsche, so TAG was trying to load off some financial weight on the guys in Stuttgart, but all they got was a cold shoulder. Porsche treated the project entirely as a custom job, and wouldn't put a penny of their own into it, and so development lagged. You could call it a political ploy not coming off.

[Keke Rosberg]

Originally posted by fines

I believe there was a serious breakdown of relationship as TAG grew tired of footing the bill all the while Porsche was getting the credit for the wins! Remember, the engine was nominally a TAG, but most reports called it a Porsche, so TAG was trying to load off some financial weight on the guys in Stuttgart, but all they got was a cold shoulder. Porsche treated the project entirely as a custom job, and wouldn't put a penny of their own into it, and so development lagged. You could call it a political ploy not coming off.

did Ron step in and try to resolve the matters? the Porsche-TAG engine just got less and less competitive over the years ......

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Slyder


BBC actually reported on their highlights initially that Prost and De Angelis were DQed. But later on De Angelis was placed as the winner while Prost remained DQed.

Was there ever any actual basis for disqualifying de Angelis, or did someone in the Beeb's team OD on the Lambrusco or something?

[Keke Rosberg]

more questions:

11. my resource says that the RAM team had an excellent reputation for workmanship, subcontracting to many other F1 teams. Do you know what kind of works RAM did for other teams and for which teams?

12. BMW supplied engines to both Brabham and Arrows, do you know if they're of the same specification? or did Brabham get factory support while Arrows not?

13. what's the reason for Michelin to quit the sport at the end of 1984? after all they'd dominated the sport in 84. Any previous Michelin shod teams had problems adapting to either Pirelli or Goodyear?

14. Benetton sponsored both the Toleman and Alfa Romeo teams, which team received more money from the Italian fashion company?

15. did Benetton request full livery privilege to both teams? causing previous Toleman sponsor, Candy's move to Ligier

16. my source indicates that Alfa had its' own test track, do you know which one was it?

17. Zakspeed only participated in the European races, was there any penalties for teams not showing up at all 16 Grand Prix back then?
Was this decision purely cost related?


thank you all

[Keke Rosberg]

Originally posted by ensign14

The French government leaned on them to support the international boycott of apartheid; given that both were pretty heavily subsidized by the French tax-payer...

Hello
did the French government ask any of the French drivers not to participate in the S. African GP? (I'm not sure if any of the drivers receive support from the French government)

thank you

[Rob G]

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg
13. ... Any previous Michelin shod teams had problems adapting to either Pirelli or Goodyear?

Well, Toleman had a little trouble...

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg
14. Benetton sponsored both the Toleman and Alfa Romeo teams, which team received more money from the Italian fashion company?

15. did Benetton request full livery privilege to both teams? causing previous Toleman sponsor, Candy's move to Ligier

Toleman lost their sponsors because they had no tires at the start of the season. Goodyear wasn't able to supply any more teams, and Pirelli was still angry at Toleman for dumping them midway through 1984. But salvation came in the form of Luciano Benetton, who agreed to give Toleman the supply of tires allocated to his recently-acquired Spirit team in exchange for having the Benetton name splashed all over the cars.

[Keke Rosberg]

Originally posted by Rob G

Well, Toleman had a little trouble...


Toleman lost their sponsors because they had no tires at the start of the season. Goodyear wasn't able to supply any more teams, and Pirelli was still angry at Toleman for dumping them midway through 1984. But salvation came in the form of Luciano Benetton, who agreed to give Toleman the supply of tires allocated to his recently-acquired Spirit team in exchange for having the Benetton name splashed all over the cars.

so Benetton's original plan was to acquire the Spirit team and race it as Benetton F1? my source indicates it's the other way around, Benetton as a new sponsor of Toleman, agreed to purchase the Spirit team and transferred the Pirelli tyres to Toleman.

[Rob G]

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg


so Benetton's original plan was to acquire the Spirit team and race it as Benetton F1? my source indicates it's the other way around, Benetton as a new sponsor of Toleman, agreed to purchase the Spirit team and transferred the Pirelli tyres to Toleman.

I'm not sure, it may have been sort of a simultaneous thing. The source I was using stated that Benetton bought Spirit "in Monaco" but doesn't specify when.

[RStock]

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg


16. my source indicates that Alfa had its' own test track, do you know which one was it?

They have had one at Balocco , north of Turin I believe , since the early 1960's .

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg

17. Zakspeed only participated in the European races, was there any penalties for teams not showing up at all 16 Grand Prix back then?
Was this decision purely cost related?

They were certainly ineligible for championship points, but beyond that I don't know if there were any fines.

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg

did the French government ask any of the French drivers not to participate in the S. African GP?

Not sure, but given that most were living in tax exile I don't know if any pressure COULD have been put on them.

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg
more questions:

11. my resource says that the RAM team had an excellent reputation for workmanship, subcontracting to many other F1 teams. Do you know what kind of works RAM did for other teams and for which teams?

12. BMW supplied engines to both Brabham and Arrows, do you know if they're of the same specification? or did Brabham get factory support while Arrows not?

13. what's the reason for Michelin to quit the sport at the end of 1984? after all they'd dominated the sport in 84. Any previous Michelin shod teams had problems adapting to either Pirelli or Goodyear?

14. Benetton sponsored both the Toleman and Alfa Romeo teams, which team received more money from the Italian fashion company?

15. did Benetton request full livery privilege to both teams? causing previous Toleman sponsor, Candy's move to Ligier

16. my source indicates that Alfa had its' own test track, do you know which one was it?

17. Zakspeed only participated in the European races, was there any penalties for teams not showing up at all 16 Grand Prix back then?
Was this decision purely cost related?


thank you all

11. They carried on doing lots of fabrication work when they became Middlebridge and then Superpower, I think the fabrication side was run seperately by Mick Ralph.
12. Arrows engines were serviced by Heine Mader so were not the same spec as the BMW works ones in the Brabham.
13. Costs I believe.
14. Benetton sponsored Tyrrel in 83, Alfa in 84&85 and then they bought Toleman prior to Monaco when they also bought out Spirits tyre contract for Toleman to run on.
15. I think Candy left Toleman before Benetton arrived as there was no Candy signs on the TG185 when it was launched.
16. As stated previously Ballaco or however its spelt. Giorgio Francia often did the test driving duties, evern after Alfa left at the end of 85 he carried on driving a 185 with the new 4 cylinder engine that Ligier subsequently has a nightmare with in 87.
17. No fines but not eligible for points. Same as Beatrice Lola who arrived at Monza.

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg


so Benetton's original plan was to acquire the Spirit team and race it as Benetton F1? my source indicates it's the other way around, Benetton as a new sponsor of Toleman, agreed to purchase the Spirit team and transferred the Pirelli tyres to Toleman.

Benetton/Toleman never bought Spirit, just their tyre contract. In fact Spirit stated at the the time they intended to return, either in F1 or F3000 - there were rumours they would run a March 85b for Pascal Fabre later in the season. They eventually did come back in 88 running Reynards in F3000 for Steve Kempton and Bertie Gachot, although this was more a John Wickham vehicle only.