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Questions regarding the 1985 F1 season


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#51 lil'chris

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 10:10

Originally posted by ghinzani
15. I think Candy left Toleman before Benetton arrived as there was no Candy signs on the TG185 when it was launched.


Long time ago, but wasn't Richard Branson at the launch hence rumours abounded that Virgin might be Tolemans sponsor ?

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#52 rateus

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 11:59

Originally posted by ensign14

They were certainly ineligible for championship points, but beyond that I don't know if there were any fines.


Very unlikely to have been any fines, as the rule requiring entry at every race (aka 'Rio or bust') wasn't introduced until 1988 - remember Scuderia Italia showing up for their first race with an upgraded F3000 Dallara to meet this requirement?

As ens noted though, only full-season entries were eligible for points - as late as 1987 Dalmas was denied a score for his 5th place finish in Australia because of this. Don't think it was an issue in 1885 though.

#53 fines

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 14:09

Originally posted by ghinzani
17. No fines

I didn't say anything!

#54 ensign14

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 14:26

Originally posted by rateus

As ens noted though, only full-season entries were eligible for points - as late as 1987 Dalmas was denied a score for his 5th place finish in Australia because of this. Don't think it was an issue in 1885 though.

It certainly was in '84, as the second entries for Osella and ATS were denied points at Italy that year for 5th and 6th.

IIRC Jo Gartner ran out of fuel on about the last corner and coasted across the line. Had he stopped just before, he would have been classified 7th, Ghinzani 6th, and Osella would have snuck a point. Twinny?

(I never understood why the points were never awarded to the first 6 eligible cars. Would have given Spirit a point.)

#55 Keke Rosberg

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 14:33

wow, very informative, greatly appreciated

thank you everyone !!!! :clap:

#56 Twin Window

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 19:14

Originally posted by ghinzani

15. I think Candy left Toleman before Benetton arrived as there was no Candy signs on the TG185 when it was launched.

Yes they did; as has been mentioned, they'd already gone to Ligier.

When the TG185 was launched their contracted drivers were John Watson and Stefan Johansson. But, as again has already been covered, they were stuffed on the tyre front and without doubt paid heavily from the fall-out after defecting to Michelin from Pirelli shortly after Imola (IIRC) the previous season. With so many Italian sponsors at the time - Candy, Segafredo, Sergio Tacchini, Agip and +1 to name the most regular - being dumped by the team so publicly caused Pirelli major embarrassment, and most if not all of the previous backers withdrew at seasons-end in sympathy. In fact when the car first ran it was plain black & white with not a solitary logo, other than the Toleman one, in evidence.

Originally posted by ensign14

Twinny?

Yes? :D

The result for the '84 Italian GP (irrespective of points eligibility) still stands as the best-ever for Austria; Lauda 1st, Jo 5th and Gerhard 6th - never before or since have three Austrians made the top-six.

When Jo's 50th birthday was celebrated in January '04 we were treated to a video of the highlights programme as taped the evening of the race, when Jo & Gerhard were studio guests. They both looked soooo young...

#57 ghinzani

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 20:16

Toleman actually shook down the TG185 on Avons in Britain IIRC - now if they were F1 tyres they must have been three years old at least. A big what if, because if Pirelli werent playing games Johannson and Watson could have been like the modern day Brawn effort. Did Toleman ever name a replacement driver for Johannson after he left but before Fabi took over?

#58 Keke Rosberg

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 20:27

Originally posted by Bauble
Autosport 1985 I'll have a look in the loft I might have a set there.


Hello Bauble, any luck with finding those 85 Autosport magazines?? you can leave message here or pm me.


thank you

#59 Twin Window

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 20:51

Originally posted by ghinzani

Toleman actually shook down the TG185 on Avons in Britain IIRC - now if they were F1 tyres they must have been three years old at least. A big what if, because if Pirelli werent playing games Johannson and Watson could have been like the modern day Brawn effort. Did Toleman ever name a replacement driver for Johannson after he left but before Fabi took over?

Yes, those Avons must have been buggered by then!

I might well be wrong, but I don't think the driver nomination business was all that regimented back then; having the appropriate super-licence was about it I think. For example, in '84 a few strange things went on like the brothers Fabi sharing the #2 Brabham (with Manfred subbing in Portugal), Martini standing-in at no notice for Senna when 'March Old Boys' suspended him for having the cheek to sign for Lotus, Thack had one-off drives with Tyrrell and with RAM, Spirit alternated Baldi and Rothengatter (sort of) and so on.

I guess that old phrase force majeure was the reason most teams gave, except for Brabhams whose boss did what he liked...

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#60 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 21:07

Originally posted by lil'chris
Long time ago, but wasn't Richard Branson at the launch hence rumours abounded that Virgin might be Tolemans sponsor ?


The Toleman was presented at Virgin's club of Branson. The car (on unmarked Michelins) even sported a Virgin decal. That was probably for the club fee?

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg
14. Benetton sponsored both the Toleman and Alfa Romeo teams, which team received more money from the Italian fashion company?

16. my source indicates that Alfa had its' own test track, do you know which one was it?

17. Zakspeed only participated in the European races, was there any penalties for teams not showing up at all 16 Grand Prix back then?
Was this decision purely cost related?


14. Most likely Toleman as Alfa Romeo paid most part of the Euroracing bill. At Toleman Benetton had all to say which also resulted in Fabi driving instead of Wattie.

16. Alfa also had a test track in Arese albeit a very simple one compared to complex Balocco.

17. Zakspeed entered F1 high profile and well prepared, at least that was how it looked. The car was painted immaculate, mechanics in clean uniform, fan club, etc. Zakowski mentioned 1985 as a learning year and found themselves to smallinexperienced to do a full season.

#61 ghinzani

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 08:45

Originally posted by Twin Window

Yes, those Avons must have been buggered by then!

I might well be wrong, but I don't think the driver nomination business was all that regimented back then; having the appropriate super-licence was about it I think. For example, in '84 a few strange things went on like the brothers Fabi sharing the #2 Brabham (with Manfred subbing in Portugal), Martini standing-in at no notice for Senna when 'March Old Boys' suspended him for having the cheek to sign for Lotus, Thack had one-off drives with Tyrrell and with RAM, Spirit alternated Baldi and Rothengatter (sort of) and so on.

I guess that old phrase force majeure was the reason most teams gave, except for Brabhams whose boss did what he liked...



Funnily enough I always thought the force majeure card would cover them, but just reading a pre 82 South African GP Autosport there was a story about how Theodore would not go to Kyalami because Teddy Yip was person non gratis due to his race!!! However the next week it was stated they would go because they faced a 20k fine if they didnt attend. So maybe there was one rule for FOCA members and one for others like De Villotas Onyx March 821? And Osella obviously claimed circumstances when they didnt replace Palleti for the rest of the year after his untimely demise. I often wonder why he didnt get replaced as it would have been a much need cash boost - did Panasonic insist the seat stay empty out of respect and paid for the privellege?

#62 Keke Rosberg

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 22:27

18. Lauda had injured his wrist at the Belgian GP and wasn't able to participate the following race @ Brands Hatch, McLaren called in John Watson to substitute for Lauda, does anyone know if they'd considered any other drivers? or Watson was their only choice? also did Watson do any private testing/practice before the Brands Hatch race? after all, he's been away from an F1 cockpit for 2 years.

19. Was Roberto Moreno a Toleman test driver in 1985? in the recent F1 Racing magazine, Pat Symond says that Moreno and Fabi were both testing at the Nurburgring circuit and both cars stopped at the same time at the same place. I wonder if this testing was done during the Nurburgring GP weekend?

20. When / where did Alfa announce their withdrawal from F1 racing?

thank you very much

#63 Keke Rosberg

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 16:11

I got the answer for # 18 and 19,

21. why did Toleman not letting John Watson drive at Monaco? also, they took on Ghinzani later in the season, what happened to the deal with John Watson?

22. my source says that Cheever and Patrese didn't get along, was there a fallout during the previous season (84)?

thanks!!

#64 D-Type

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 16:23

Originally posted by Keke Rosberg
I got the answer for # 18 and 19,

~

Which is?

#65 Keke Rosberg

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 16:34

Originally posted by D-Type
Which is?


McLaren had tried to get Warwick to substitute for Lauda @ Brands Hatch but Renault rejected the request. Watson then test the McLaren at Donington and his times convinced the Woking team to give him the drive.

As for Moreno, I'm not sure if he was the official test driver for Toleman, but I found a picture of him driving the Toleman, so I guesss he did test for the team in 85.

#66 fareleiro

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 14:04

I got the answer for # 18 and 19,

21. why did Toleman not letting John Watson drive at Monaco? also, they took on Ghinzani later in the season, what happened to the deal with John Watson?

22. my source says that Cheever and Patrese didn't get along, was there a fallout during the previous season (84)?

thanks!!


21. With the Benetton sponsorship an italian driver was required, so they hired Fabi. And when Benetton manage Pirelli to support a second car, Ghinzani came onboard for the same reason.

22. Since 1984 (mid season?!?) did Cheever and Patrese didn't get along. For quite a few occasions did Cheever publicly criticesed Patrese's attitude. I remember:
Brands Hatch 84 on lap 1 accident: "Patrese is an idiot".
Nurburgring 85 on rainny practice: "I just can't see why the hell he doesn't left the pits when we have so few times to practice with the car?!" (or something like that..)

and things didnt get any better after the Kyamali accident!