2123 replies to this topic

[Bloggsworth]

Off you go, the thread is now officially open..................

[Dalek Caan]

I fancy a 15-2 in Vettel's favour.

[klyster]

I like Mark Webber, but I feel Sebastian Vettel has a truckload more potential.

Lets see what he can do from 3rd.

[MichaelPM]

The one that was not involved in a serious accident wins. End.

[krapmeister]

TBH Mark looked quite happy with today - he's probably pretty relieved that the car seems to have some good pace.

Considering what he's been through he proved he had the pace and still had the fastest Red Bull lap in qualy overall - but admitted he made a small mistake in sector 2 of his last Q3 lap which cost him 1.5 tenths.

But Vettel put it all together in Q3 when it mattered.

1-0 to the wunderkind...

[27GV]

Quite a good showing from someone who was involved in a serious accident.

[HoldenRT]

I hope it's close. Today was pretty close, but Webber made a mistake at the worst time. Have to wonder about the decision to go heavier in fuel as well, it's home race.

1-0 to Vettel

[craftverk]

Originally posted by HoldenRT
I hope it's close. Today was pretty close, but Webber made a mistake at the worst time. Have to wonder about the decision to go heavier in fuel as well, it's home race.

1-0 to Vettel

How can that be? The Grand Prix hasn't started yet.

[sejanus]

lol, wait until the race before declaring 1-0 to anyone.

though vettel being 5 places further definitely has a better chance.

[HoldenRT]

Originally posted by craftverk

How can that be? The Grand Prix hasn't started yet.

Qualifying 1-0 Vettel
Race 0-0

Happy?

[Boing 2]

well, webbers 4 tenths slower but has 5kg more fuel and is still limping from a bad injury, i's say this'll be a lot closer than with bourdais.

[Knowlesy]

Originally posted by Boing 2
still limping from a bad injury,

Lucky that he doesn't have to do any walking when he is in the car then.

[pduncle]

I dont think Webber did too badly in quali.

He was about 0.3s off Vettel, with sector 1 and 3 times pretty much the same, and made a mistake (quite uncharacteristic) in sector 2 + slightly heavier fuel load. If it werent for that mistake it wouldve been RBR 3-4

[krapmeister]

Originally posted by sejanus
lol, wait until the race before declaring 1-0 to anyone.

though vettel being 5 places further definitely has a better chance.

Sorry Sejanus, I was referring to qualifying. For some reason I took this thread as referring to the qualy battle between the two.

Qualifying - first blood to Vettel 1-0

Race - TBC

[brunopascal]

Originally posted by klyster
I like Mark Webber, but I feel Sebastian Vettel has a truckload more potential.

Lets see what he can do from 3rd.

I feel the same.
I was always mystified w Webber, he seems to have so much potential and speed, but nothing ever really seems to materialize.
I hope he can show this potential I believe he's got this season, I'm sure Vettel will.

[senna da silva]

I'm gutted that Mark had the off season accident as this was my favourite matchup for 2009. Unfortunately the accident gives an excuse for being beaten, not that I believe Webber would ever use it but it does cast doubt on his current ability because he isn't 100%.

[krapmeister]

Qualifying 1-0 to Vettel

Race 1-0 to Webber

;)

[PassWind]

Originally posted by krapmeister
Qualifying 1-0 to Vettel

Race 1-0 to Webber

;)

Quite bizarre really though wasn't it, I suppose the old saying to finish first you first must finish.

[krapmeister]

Originally posted by PassWind
Quite bizarre really though wasn't it, I suppose the old saying to finish first you first must finish.

I'm just trying to find something good in Mark's race - and that he is a classified finisher above Vettel is about it unfortunately.

In qualifying they were pretty evenly matched, with Vettel getting the nod. Can't really compare them in the race - Mark's really only lasted to the first corner, and until Vettel tried to play demo derby with Kubica he was having a great one.

But Mark finished the race, so point to him...

[GregAU]

Can only say 1 - 0 to Webber I'm afraid as he actually finished the race.

Although Seb's race was technically better, he threw it all away with that STUPID case of brain fade at the end and destroyed a podium result. Ruining such a great result negates any team mate battle result for him I'm afraid.

I was so pissed when that happened....just stared at the screen blankly and pinched myself to see if it was a bad dream or not.

ugh.

[LoudHoward]

I think that was a bit of a non-result for the intra-team battle, Webber made a slight blue in qually but was heavier then didn't get to race. SV put in a tops drive, but on shot tyres should've yielded to bring home the podium, there was no way in hell he was keeping Kubica behind him for more than a couple of corners.

[Philip Lee KK]

i'd say the race is a draw.

Mark's lack of performance wasn't his fault but Vettel stuffed up big time after a great drive.

[Melbourne Park]

Does anyone know about Webber's error in Q3?

In Q2, MW set his time quite early, and the track just got faster and faster. It likely did too in Q3 due to the rubber. But MW's error going into his fast run before SV, was maybe a sign that for the first time he was feeling real pressure. But if it was a brake issue, then :

MW has been having brake problems in testing with the new RBR. People at the race were saying that Vettel had wanted the team's Carbon Industries brake package replaced by Brembos, which is what SV used at STR. Not sure if its true or not, but MW certainly had lots of brake issues in testing. Reminded me of the issues that FA had with brakes at McLaren.

I'd give both awards to Vettel this weekend. Very unfortunate that he crashed though - the team should have advised him to let the much faster Kubica through IMO.

[LoudHoward]

I would suggest any pressure that may have effected his performance on that lap (whats a mistake from pressure and whats just a mistake?) would've been coming from himself in front of him home crowd rather than anything Vettel was doing. He was ahead of Seb and would've known he had more fuel at that stage afterall.

[Raelene]

the team should have advised him to let the much faster Kubica through IMO.

!!!!!!

Glad you don't run a race team...

[Alfisti]

Originally posted by LoudHoward
I would suggest any pressure that may have effected his performance on that lap (whats a mistake from pressure and whats just a mistake?) would've been coming from himself in front of him home crowd rather than anything Vettel was doing.

No freakin way. He always qualies well in Melbourne, he either REALLY likes the track or the crowd drive him. He's feeling Vettel's pressure 100% certain of it but i am sure Vettel is a little surprised at Mark's pace after looking way slower in testing and just annihilating Bourdais.

[krapmeister]

Originally posted by Alfisti


No freakin way. He always qualies well in Melbourne, he either REALLY likes the track or the crowd drive him. He's feeling Vettel's pressure 100% certain of it but i am sure Vettel is a little surprised at Mark's pace after looking way slower in testing and just annihilating Bourdais.

Mark made a small error - I am sure most drivers make small errors on their qualy runs, and it is not like he dropped it in the gravel - but with the top ten so close it cost him more dearly than it would have previously. 2 tenths is about the time it takes to blink.

You could say that Vettel cracked under pressure from Heidfeld as well. Both made mistakes that were critical - Vettels happened to have more serious consequences.

Pretty even at this point really - lets hope the pace shown by the RB5 continues

[Claudius]

I see the excuses for Webbers performance have already begun...

Vettel IMO was much better, qualifying ahead, getting a great start, keeping Button honest during the whole race (bar 2 last laps). The incident in the end was a race incident, nobody wanting to yield. Silly but that's what happens when two racing drivers are fighting to the end. Vettel might have even learned a lesson that sometimes it's better to let go and collect points.
What's more important, Vettel didn't lose any place at the start, and he pushed and had contact with the race leader the entire race. Unlike the charachteristic Webber MO of qualifying great and then losing positions at the start and proggresivly during the race.

Mark race was compromised at the first corner but he shouldn't have been there to begin with IMO. Midfield is always dangerous and he should have been qualifying higher up, like his teammate. I thought qualifying was his strongest area...

I think Vettel is going to be ahead during the season.
But let's hope for a great fight between the teammates, pushing each-other to better results.

[Philip Lee KK]

my biggest concern for Mark was whether he still has the pace after his accident during the off season.

no doubt Vettel is good but it's a bit too early to call. i still have faith in Mark (for the moment).

bring on Malaysia.

[Bluesmoke]

I really like Webber, but Vettel is going to absolutely destroy him!

[sanjiro]

Originally posted by Claudius
I see the excuses for Webbers performance have already begun...

Then you are indeed blind.
No one here is making excuses for Mark
Mark was not even making excuses for Mark.

He stuffed S2 in Q2 and Q3
It was unlike him.
You would be hard pressed to find more then 2 Q runs per year the he stuffs up.
It was not 0.1s on that S2 it was 0.3s slower than he had previously done in sector2.
His fault and he paid the price.

This is not an excuse its just what happened.
An excuse would be to say SV tied my shoe laces together and that is why i stuffed my S2

Just like SV took himself out with a silly attempt to hold position
(silly because he was well aware his tyres were shot)
Mark took himself out by not qualifying away from the SPECIAL people.

@#$% happens, nothing much can be taken from this other than closely looking at Q times.
All that tells us is what many already believed.
SV and MW are very close

[Claudius]

Originally posted by sanjiro


Then you are indeed blind.
No one here is making excuses for Mark
Mark was not even making excuses for Mark.

He stuffed S2 in Q2 and Q3
It was unlike him.
You would be hard pressed to find more then 2 Q runs per year the he stuffs up.
It was not 0.1s on that S2 it was 0.3s slower than he had previously done in sector2.
His fault and he paid the price.

This is not an excuse its just what happened.
An excuse would be to say SV tied my shoe laces together and that is why i stuffed my S2

Just like SV took himself out with a silly attempt to hold position
(silly because he was well aware his tyres were shot)
Mark took himself out by not qualifying away from the SPECIAL people.

@#$% happens, nothing much can be taken from this other than closely looking at Q times.
All that tells us is what many already believed.
SV and MW are very close

Feeling a bit defensive?

I don't agree with what you say in general, and especially the last sentence, but we'll se at the end of the year. Hoping for a good and clean fight between the teammates.
(Also looking forward to all the "explanations")

[LoudHoward]

I don't think it's entirely unusual for Marks first Q3 run to be better than his second, even if it is on lighter fuel. He pushes both his laps hard and it doesn't always work.

Anyone who tries to say Mark definately cracked under pressure from Vettel is just voicing as fact nothing more than their opinion. I have no idea what was going on in Marks head at the time, and for anyone but Mark to say they know 100% is just spewing manure through their keyboard.

I may as well say that Trulli choked under the immense pressure of his young teammate taking the glory from him! He's a qualifying specialist and he had 10kgs less fuel onboard, yet lost out by 2 tenths. Clearly Glocks in his head and he's falling to pieces and this will be Trullis last year!

It's my opinion Mark tries to do something special in Australia, especially with the question marks over his leg and fitness, he was going faster in S1 and S3 than Vettel with more fuel onboard, he was obviously on the very edge and had a moment. I'm not going to state that as fact though, if someone disagrees and voices their own opinion, I'll try change your mind and if I can't I'll tip my hat and we'll go on to the next topic. This should be an enjoyable thread though.

[krapmeister]

Originally posted by Claudius
I see the excuses for Webbers performance have already begun...

Ok then - no excuses for Webber's or Vettel's performance.




Webber beat Vettel




Happy now?

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by sanjiro

He stuffed S2 in Q2 and Q3
It was unlike him.

I don't think he stuffed Q2 at all - he set a great time, but set it early, while the track was below its best. Maybe he lost the choice of fuel strategies, which may have put extra pressure on him in Q3, and he also had to set his Q3 a bit earlier.

Anyone who blaimed Webber for the first corner crash is an idiot.

Its not normal for #10 to have his car crashed out either. The cause was a KERS equipped McLaren not braking - and then a car came across in a split second.

I'm still bemused about the change to the brakes in the RBR5, and that MW had issues with the brakes in testing. And I've yet to find out what MW's error was in Q3 - I hope it wasn't brake related. Webber had his brakes changed on Friday too I think. Last year, he broke a disk at the end of Q2 I think, and could not run in Q3.

Sepang is another day for both drivers, hopefully the RBR will still be competitive. The chassis seems good though and this year the engine is a good one too.

[Bloggsworth]

I started this thread to prove a point; I was right; irony does not exist in internet fora...........................

[krapmeister]

Originally posted by Bloggsworth
I started this thread to prove a point; I was right; irony does not exist in internet fora...........................

What's irony?

[jez33]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park

Anyone who blaimed Webber for the first corner crash is an idiot.

Watch the replay again.

Mark loses out getting off the line to Heidfeld, whom he knows is running much much heavier.


"I saw Rubens had a bad start so I went around him and was just focussing on where Nick (Heidfeld) was. I went down to turn 1 and started braking and having a little look at Nick although I was never intending to do anything there."

Mark was not to blame for the crash, but if he got off the line cleanly and squared the Heidfeld issue off then he would not have left the door invitingly open for Rubens to slide right into him.

It's all about taking your car out of risky situations in the jousting phase, and Mark Webber is very weak in this department.

[eoin]

The first corner was just a racing incident. Some drivers got a good start, some got a bad one leading to too many cars going trying to take the corner at the same time.

Should be an interesting battle between these too. I expect Vettel to bring home more points, but Webber is a very good driver who will keep him honest.

[krapmeister]

Originally posted by jez33


Watch the replay again.

Mark loses out getting off the line to Heidfeld, whom he knows is running much much heavier.


"I saw Rubens had a bad start so I went around him and was just focussing on where Nick (Heidfeld) was. I went down to turn 1 and started braking and having a little look at Nick although I was never intending to do anything there."

Mark was not to blame for the crash, but if he got off the line cleanly and squared the Heidfeld issue off then he would not have left the door invitingly open for Rubens to slide right into him.

It's all about taking your car out of risky situations in the jousting phase, and Mark Webber is very weak in this department.

Where do you get the idea that Mark didn't get off the line cleanly?

As for squaring Heidfeld off, remember that Nick had KERS to help him on the run down to turn 1, and a lot of people on this forum were expecting the KERS runners to swamp the non-KERS guys at the start - which they did.

[jez33]

Vettel had three KERS cars behind him and I seem to recall he was still 2nd after the first few corners.

Face up to it.

Mark Webber's starts and run through the first few corners was never his strongest point.

Anyway, hopefully Mark gets a decent result in Malaysia which has historically been a strong circuit for him.

His confidence needs a bit of boosting.

[LoudHoward]

If anything, I think Mark got off the line better than Vettel, though it was pretty even. Nico and Robert both blocked the Ferraris for Seb but even so Kimi who started alongside Mark had his front wing even with Sebs rear wing into T1! KERS was pretty epic off the line.

[tripleM]

It's over before it's even begun.

Seb > Webber.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by jez33

Face up to it.

Mark Webber's starts and run through the first few corners was never his strongest point.

He's had an aweful lot of practice at mid field starts!

He got a bad reputation for starts from the Jaguar clutch, and then at Williams BMW withdrew support and their launch control did not work - both damaged his starting reputation much more than incidents. Our brains work in predictable ways - we pick out differentials. A youth football coach will notice something about the way someone moves that's a sign of future talent - and the coach will remember it, it'll stick in his mind. We've all done the same with MW's famous bad starts - which were not his fault at all. Yet many others have started much worse - MS consistantly had starting issues, and his team were good at fixing driver issues.

Mark did change his policies though - he made an effort to keep it clean at his starts. That did cost him the odd place - but at times he passed several cars at the starts too. And he was often dicing very close, but he did keep it all clean.

Things to consider at starts are whether the car is on the rubbered side of the track, and the comparable fuel load, and the tyre the car is using. All factors effect comparable starts. This year, we need to add the fact that many cars will be using KERS at starts - but Kubica and Webber won't, because they are too heavy to use KERS. Don't blaim the FIA for that though - blaim the drivers. Afterall anyone who weighs over 60kg is just too heavy for driving a 750 horsepower Formula one car nowadays.

If I was Max, the first thing I would change in Formula One would be the steering. I'd remove power assisted steering. Let the drivers put some muscle on. It would be greener too ... I'd also enjoy them playing with all the controls whiles't once again having to wrestle a non power assisted steering wheeled race car. Not only is it feeble to have power steering, but most of the F1 drivers weigh less than a 20 year old girl. When I look at the Nascar drivers, they look like men. What's going on in F1? They look more like horse jockeys every day. No wonder they want young drivers - they weigh less. I reckon MW's 5 O'Clock shadow - you know the one he's got by 10 am - and that would weigh extra too. And I reckon by 5 pm it's a beard that weighs about half a kilo ... MW reminds me a bit of that soldier in Preditor, that is always shaving while the Preditor is out there, and they can feel its invisible gaze on them. Only MW can't get the shaver onto his covered chin. Its a bit difficult to get to with a race helmut on I guess. And with a busted shoulder too maybe. Now Quick Nick grew a beard - just to show he was a man IMO. It took him about six months to grow it too I reckon. Now Nick's partner Kubica is also too heavy to run KERS. And he shaves too. Hmmm ... I wonder if Vettel even shaves yet ...

MW himself has said that he needs to be more intense over the first lap - lots have jumped on that, but it was a one liner only. We always remember that we've seen Webber get away a bit slow, loose a place and then when he's due to pit, he keeps on driving and driving. We remember the lost place forever, but we forget the extra fuel load.

Recall how a Brawn Mercedes javelined into Webber at this GP and damaged for the whole race MW's car? It was Rubens - who ended up second. Rubens won't cop anything for such a bad start - but Webber would be condemned to hell if he did anything one tenth as bad. If one looks at all the crashes today's F1 drivers have created at the starts, all the wheel bashings too - Webber is right down the bottom of that list. But we think he's bad at the starts. It makes no sense. Rubens sustained no front race damage from spearing into Webber - although his rear diffuser was mangled. Rubens finished second - from such a crap start. While MW, starting from the slow lane (which had less traction) he then got speared and permanently damaged.

So we condemn him without justification.

Such is life I guess.

[Barramut]

I remember Todt commenting on Flipper's crash e years ago in the start of this same circuit.
Flipper was spreading a lot of excuses, blaming Nico, Heidfeld, the track.

But Todt said something like...
No, there are no excuses, DNF was Felipe's fault, to avoid a midfield crash [like that] you should start ahead.

Flipper remained silent after that.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
I reckon MW's 5 O'Clock shadow - you know the one he's got by 10 am - and that would weigh extra too. And I reckon by 5 pm it's a beard that weighs about half a kilo ...

Give the man a Braun....

[PassWind]

KERS is going to be the enabler all year for first corner congestion.

Unless the drivers get orderly at the starts it will be the same for the whole year. Rubens didn't help with the botched start.

[Philip Lee KK]

Originally posted by krapmeister


Where do you get the idea that Mark didn't get off the line cleanly?

As for squaring Heidfeld off, remember that Nick had KERS to help him on the run down to turn 1, and a lot of people on this forum were expecting the KERS runners to swamp the non-KERS guys at the start - which they did.

plus the fact that Nick (& Vettel) was on the clean side of the track. with that disadvantage, lack of KERS and trying to avoid a slow starting Rubens, Nick was only alongside Mark into T1, hardly a bad start for Mark.

[jez33]

Heidfeld was considerably heavier than Mark (691kg vs 662kg), so the fact he got ahead of Mark says a lot.

This is not an isolated case.

Go through Mark's history of starts and his runs into T1/T2/T3.

More often than not he loses places and puts his car in compromising positions where they then become at risk of collision.

The law of averages says you cannot have THAT much bad luck, after time it becomes a trend.

Like his qualifyng prowess being a superior skill, his starts and runs into the first few corners are one of his weakest driving points, this along with his in and out laps from the pits on sub optimal tyres.

[krapmeister]

Thread resurrection!

Well - after friday free practice, its very close between the Red Bull drivers.

Webber was quicker in FP1 with Vettel quicker in FP2 - with the difference between the 2 similar in both sessions.