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KERS - a white elephant


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#1 Madras

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:24

What a joke KERS has turned out to be. Only 7 cars running it and only 2 got into the top 10! Kubica managed to blow his KERS team mate into the dust.

Another bright idea from Spanky's mob...

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#2 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:25

we'll se after the last race of the season ;)

#3 Madras

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:26

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
we'll se after the last race of the season ;)


Where no teams will be running KERS ;)

#4 postajegenye

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:36

And next year it's obligatory :

#5 JPW

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:41

I don't think you've grasped the essence of the introduction of KERS in F1, if you think that based on 1 qualification you can write it off.

Let's see what it can do in races and judge on its merits (if any) after the season.

#6 Madras

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:43

Originally posted by JPW
I don't think you've grasped the essence of the introduction of KERS in F1, if you think that based on 1 qualification you can write it off.

Let's see what it can do in races and judge on its merits (if any) after the season.


Yes you're right, it's all going to change at the next race! :rolleyes:

Seriously, if it's turning out this bad at the start few teams are going to bother working on it when a spec KERS system comes in for next season.

#7 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:44

I'll take KERS more on it's race value than qualy, will also take more than just 7 cars development to see how it can really affect the grid. It isn't a good start for it though.

#8 rolf123

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:45

Madras, you seem to be ignoring something called an illegal diffuser?

It remains to be seen whether KERS will be a disadvantage, an advantage or neutral in the race. I'm quite positive about it. I think it will be especially good for defending a position.

Think about it, most tracks only have one or two real overtaking spots. Keep your eyes peeled and if the other car (probably without KERS) looks like making a move then just slam on the KERS button! :lol:

#9 stevvy1986

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:46

its not illegal if the FIA,stewards, and ICA don't rule it illegal-it currently isn't illegal, because no ruling has been given to confirm that

#10 HoldenRT

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:47

The teams running KERS at the moment have a short term loss for a long term investment. It could pay off in the future.

#11 rolf123

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:47

Originally posted by stevvy1986
its not illegal if the FIA,stewards, and ICA don't rule it illegal-it currently isn't illegal, because no ruling has been given to confirm that


Stop being pedantic. It's illegal in my view. But you can remove the world illegal and my point is still relevant. To say that KERS is bad because of the positions of the cars is to ignore the unique diffusers used by three other teams, whether you believe them to be illegal or not.

#12 PassWind

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:49

Originally posted by rolf123
Madras, you seem to be ignoring something called an illegal diffuser?

It remains to be seen whether KERS will be a disadvantage, an advantage or neutral in the race. I'm quite positive about it. I think it will be especially good for defending a position.

Think about it, most tracks only have one or two real overtaking spots. Keep your eyes peeled and if the other car (probably without KERS) looks like making a move then just slam on the KERS button! :lol:


Right remover the diffuser, Brawn would still whoop the Ferrari and BMW, and the RB5 is faster than all of the KERS cars atm on this track.

There is a little more to it than a diffuser

#13 Madras

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:50

Originally posted by rolf123
Madras, you seem to be ignoring something called an illegal diffuser?

It remains to be seen whether KERS will be a disadvantage, an advantage or neutral in the race. I'm quite positive about it. I think it will be especially good for defending a position.

Think about it, most tracks only have one or two real overtaking spots. Keep your eyes peeled and if the other car (probably without KERS) looks like making a move then just slam on the KERS button! :lol:


1. Vettel does not have an illegal diffuser, and qualified 3rd without KERS (same fuel load as Ferrari)

2. BMW - Kubica destroyed KERS Heidfeld

3. The diffuser isnt illegal (not yet anyway)

#14 sldsmkd

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:50

Originally posted by rolf123
Madras, you seem to be ignoring something called an illegal diffuser?


Originally posted by Autosport
the FIA issued a statement confirming that the stewards believe the cars are legal.


Back under your bridge

#15 Buttoneer

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:50

Originally posted by rolf123


Stop being pedantic. It's illegal in my view.

Your view counts for nothing in this case, the stewards opinion does.

#16 Madras

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:51

Originally posted by rolf123


Stop being pedantic. It's illegal in my view. But you can remove the world illegal and my point is still relevant. To say that KERS is bad because of the positions of the cars is to ignore the unique diffusers used by three other teams, whether you believe them to be illegal or not.


You are ignoring Vettel and Kubica!

#17 pedrovski

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:51

I always felt it was a red herring. A vanity project for spanky. They shoudn't have restricted the power output. Does anyone know how much energy these units are capable of producing un restricted??

#18 JPW

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:51

Originally posted by Madras

Yes you're right, it's all going to change at the next race!

I'll judge KERS on its merits after it has been raced with this season and not after one qualification, seems the proper way to evaluate things, silly me :cool:

#19 rolf123

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:51

Originally posted by sldsmkd




Back under your bridge


This remains to be seen. Anyway, talk of the legality of the diffuser is off-topic so I don't see why people are discussing that here, there is another thread for that. Let's go back to KERS.

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#20 stevvy1986

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:52

given you were the 1 who originally mentioned the diffuser, its a bit rich you saying its off topic

#21 Madras

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:53

Originally posted by rolf123


This remains to be seen. Anyway, talk of the legality of the diffuser is off-topic so I don't see why people are discussing that here...


Probably because you started talking about it. Seriously, go check - you did.

#22 F1Fanatic.co.uk

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:55

Originally posted by Madras
What a joke KERS has turned out to be. Only 7 cars running it and only 2 got into the top 10! Kubica managed to blow his KERS team mate into the dust.

I'm going to reserve judgement until I've seen more than one qualifying session.

And don't underestimate the role driver ability may have played in the difference between the BMW drivers.

#23 Gilles12

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:57

Originally posted by rolf123
Madras, you seem to be ignoring something called an illegal diffuser?

It remains to be seen whether KERS will be a disadvantage, an advantage or neutral in the race. I'm quite positive about it. I think it will be especially good for defending a position.

Think about it, most tracks only have one or two real overtaking spots. Keep your eyes peeled and if the other car (probably without KERS) looks like making a move then just slam on the KERS button! :lol:


I could be wrong but I'd say there's a flaw in your post

Most real overtaking spots are in braking areas - KERS as a power source isn't going to help much there

It might aid in braking though ! :)

#24 PassWind

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 14:58

Originally posted by F1Fanatic.co.uk

I'm going to reserve judgement until I've seen more than one qualifying session.

And don't underestimate the role driver ability may have played in the difference between the BMW drivers.



Yeah true and to be honest Nick is not the best qualifier.

#25 Madras

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:00

I think it's significant that Kubica chose not to run with it. He obviously sees it as a hinderence.

#26 rolf123

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:00

stevvy1986, Madras:

The legality of the diffuser is off-topic. I did not raise this, you did.
The relevance of the diffuser to the qualifying results that Madras uses as the basis of his assertion is not off-topic at all.

If you don't understand the difference I suggest retaking your GCSEs.

#27 GrndLkNatv

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:01

KERS is exactly what Piero Ferrari said it was, junk! There is no doubt this is true and we are just seeing the begining of it.

#28 rolf123

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:02

Originally posted by Gilles12


I could be wrong but I'd say there's a flaw in your post

Most real overtaking spots are in braking areas - KERS as a power source isn't going to help much there

It might aid in braking though ! :)


True, but if you have used KERS on a long straight then the car behind won't even contemplate an outbraking manouvre that has no chance of being pulled off.

I'm interested about the braking effect too. Didn't someone say earlier that it could have ABS-like properties or simply greater equivalent braking force?

#29 stevvy1986

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:03

Originally posted by rolf123
stevvy1986, Madras:

The legality of the diffuser is off-topic. I did not raise this, you did.
The relevance of the diffuser to the qualifying results that Madras uses as the basis of his assertion is not off-topic at all.

If you don't understand the difference I suggest retaking your GCSEs.


haha,oh you really don't understand do you-YOU mentioned the diffuser, thats YOU that mentioned it-YOU said it was illegal, so YOU started the diffuser thing, hence it is a bit rich having you say its off topic-YOU started that, not us, YOU did,YOU were the 1 who mentioned it being illegal-quite frankly i have no interest in reading posts from people who need to go back to nursery to learn basic things like that, hence welcome to my ignore list

#30 Madras

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:05

Originally posted by rolf123
stevvy1986, Madras:

The legality of the diffuser is off-topic. I did not raise this, you did.


You said it was illegal = you raised it.

#31 Gilles12

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:09

Originally posted by rolf123


True, but if you have used KERS on a long straight then the car behind won't even contemplate an outbraking manouvre that has no chance of being pulled off.


You could be right but not of course if the driver behind got on the KERS button first coming out of the preceeding corner

Most KERS usage is going to be coming out onto the exit of corners

I think this "push-to-pass" feature is a complete red herring

#32 RobH

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:12

Originally posted by rolf123


Stop being pedantic. It's illegal in my view. But you can remove the world illegal and my point is still relevant. To say that KERS is bad because of the positions of the cars is to ignore the unique diffusers used by three other teams, whether you believe them to be illegal or not.


Rolf, are you going to change every bloody thread into a debate over the legality of the diffusors. You're getting pretty boring. This thread's not the place for this argument.

:down:

#33 J2NH

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:13

Originally posted by rolf123

Think about it, most tracks only have one or two real overtaking spots. Keep your eyes peeled and if the other car (probably without KERS) looks like making a move then just slam on the KERS button! :lol:


Think about it. Those one or two real overtaking spots are preceded by corners. You have to be close to get in the tow and take advantage of the KERS, meaning you have to have a well balanced car to start with. If you are talking about a drag race then yes the KERS cars could win but in the very small window we have seen that the KERS cars are suffering from handling issues that will negate the straightline advantage. Might see an advantage at the start.

Non-KERS cars were faster, if what you are saying was true they would not have been (lap times). They sacrificed cornering speed for straight line speed and so far it has not paid off. Time will tell.

Maybe the KERS teams can come up with a way to get weight forward.

#34 rolf123

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:14

Originally posted by Gilles12


You could be right but not of course if the driver behind got on the KERS button first coming out of the preceeding corner

Most KERS usage is going to be coming out onto the exit of corners

I think this "push-to-pass" feature is a complete red herring


Indeed, but I'm talking about the limited situation we have right now where only a handful of cars are equipped with KERS.

Basically with a KERS car who has a non-KERS car behind, we could get the equivalent of the "Trulli Train".

btw stevvy and Madras, you proved my point perfectly but obviously you can't see that :lol: . Your only excuse is if you are too young to even have GCSEs.

#35 Madras

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:17

Originally posted by J2NH


Maybe the KERS teams can come up with a way to get weight forward.


Well they could if they took KERS out.

I'm seriously questioning Ferrari's decision to run with KERS. Presumably they thought they were faster with it, and if so then their car is slow.

#36 rolf123

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:17

Originally posted by RobH


Rolf, are you going to change every bloody thread into a debate over the legality of the diffusors. You're getting pretty boring. This thread's not the place for this argument.

:down:


RobH, I did not enter into a debate about the legality. I used the word "illegal" as an adjective. I was not inviting comment on it. Whether you agree with the illegality or not doesn't matter and this thread is not the time or the place for it.

But then stevvy says "its not illegal...............". I did not enter into this debate. The others did so I don't see your beef. I totally agree with you that this thread is not the place. You should be directing your comments at the other two guys.

Jeez will some people please get an education and learn how to read and understand English!

#37 jdanton

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:18

The Heidfeld/Kubica thing is the most interesting point in this debate. It's too hard to compare everyone else, but while Kubica did consistently beat Heidfeld in qualy last year, but .4 is pretty big between teammates on (assumed since Q2) the same fuel load.

KERS sucks, until I see differently (maybe the start tonight)

#38 djellison

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:18

Originally posted by stevvy1986
welcome to my ignore list


He just joined mine as well. If people would stop replying to the little troll, things would be so much better.

#39 primer

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:19

Originally posted by rolf123
Anyway, talk of the legality of the diffuser is off-topic so I don't see why people are discussing that here, there is another thread for that. Let's go back to KERS.


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#40 rolf123

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:23

Originally posted by J2NH


Think about it. Those one or two real overtaking spots are preceded by corners. You have to be close to get in the tow and take advantage of the KERS, meaning you have to have a well balanced car to start with. If you are talking about a drag race then yes the KERS cars could win but in the very small window we have seen that the KERS cars are suffering from handling issues that will negate the straightline advantage. Might see an advantage at the start.

Non-KERS cars were faster, if what you are saying was true they would not have been (lap times). They sacrificed cornering speed for straight line speed and so far it has not paid off. Time will tell.

Maybe the KERS teams can come up with a way to get weight forward.


Yes J2NH, I agree with you that over the course of a full lap in clear air, the non-KERS cars are faster than the KERS cars at the moment.

But I'm talking about a KERS car defending. Say a non-KERS car is closing in on a KERS car ahead, it will eventually get stuck behind it and suffer. And the only chances to overtake may be thwarted by the KERS car hitting a switch. For example, I reckon that the Ferraris or even Lewis may hold up cars like this tomorrow.

As for a KERS car being behind, I agree with you - I don't think KERS will offer such a huge advantage in overtaking. Probably it will give some marginal benefit to make the overtake more likely or easier.

#41 jdanton

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:23

What would be away to encourage KERS--I'm thinking like a 15kg weight penalty for not running it--not the full weight of the system, but split the difference. Thoughts?

#42 J2NH

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:26

Originally posted by pedrovski
I always felt it was a red herring. A vanity project for spanky. They shoudn't have restricted the power output. Does anyone know how much energy these units are capable of producing un restricted??


Excellent point. Not sure what they are capable of but I would guess more than allowed.
Watch the FIA raise the limits to get the egg off their face.
Note: If they do I will be hugely angry.

#43 J2NH

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:28

Originally posted by jdanton
What would be away to encourage KERS--I'm thinking like a 15kg weight penalty for not running it--not the full weight of the system, but split the difference. Thoughts?


I am thinking NO. NO changing the rules after the game has started.

#44 Madras

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:29

Originally posted by jdanton
What would be away to encourage KERS--I'm thinking like a 15kg weight penalty for not running it--not the full weight of the system, but split the difference. Thoughts?


I don't think it should be encouraged.

#45 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:30

Originally posted by Madras


Where no teams will be running KERS ;)

after the run for T1 tomorrow you will change your mind ;)

#46 HP

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:32

Originally posted by jdanton
The Heidfeld/Kubica thing is the most interesting point in this debate. It's too hard to compare everyone else, but while Kubica did consistently beat Heidfeld in qualy last year, but .4 is pretty big between teammates on (assumed since Q2) the same fuel load.

KERS sucks, until I see differently (maybe the start tonight)

BMW dropped a hint why Kubica isn't using KERS. They asked to raise the weight limit for cars, because they feel KERS is a hindering tall, heavy drivers.

Still a fishy point, because a tall and heavy driver will always be at an disadvantage.

Anyway KERS has been introduced to appease environmentalists. And from that point of view KERS is IMO a huge failure. They'd rather focus on heat recovery systems if they are serious about it. No need for PR gimmicks.

In races, it remains to be seen, but right now I have the feeling that a lot of money and resources have been wasted to make cars a lot slower. After all there are reasons why the FOTA proposed a standard KERS unit for next year. And with that proposal they more more less say KERS is useless.

#47 rolf123

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:35

Originally posted by J2NH


I am thinking NO. NO changing the rules after the game has started.


If the appeal is not upheld then I can see the FiA doing something like this to encourage the gap to close quicker and give a bigger incentive to get KERS installed. If everyone takes this up then they will score a political victory and claim that KERS is a success, even though they would have changed the rules. It might also be done to appease those teams who are most upset about the diffusers and feel wronged for doing what they saw as "following the rules" and are currently running KERS i.e. Renault and Ferrari.

This sort of political chicanery is highly likely in my opinion. This is, after all, the FiA we are talking about! They like to engineer close championships :) even I will admit that as a Ferrari fan!

#48 HP

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:38

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

after the run for T1 tomorrow you will change your mind ;)

Doubt it. Teams suggest that KERS will bring them 0.4 seconds a lap if used properly. Do the maths, how many meters that is for a run down to T1.

Moreover since the cars already have troubles with wheelspin at the start, more power simply means more wheelspin. That's the opposite of what they need. And let's not suggest to reintroduce LC and TC so they can use KERS for the start please.

#49 Madras

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:40

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

after the run for T1 tomorrow you will change your mind ;)


The most important thing about the start is getting away from the line without too much wheelspin. That is where the most time is to make up. KERS doesnt help with that.

#50 rolf123

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 15:40

Originally posted by HP
Doubt it. Teams suggest that KERS will bring them 0.4 seconds a lap if used properly. Do the maths, how many meters that is for a run down to T1.

Moreover since the cars already have troubles with wheelspin at the start, more power simply means more wheelspin. That's the opposite of what they need. And let's not suggest to reintroduce LC and TC so they can use KERS for the start please.


It won't cause wheelspin if they don't use it immediately. Used about two or three seconds after the start, it should not cause any wheelspin.