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Kubica vs. Vettel - Australia 2009


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Poll: Kubica vs. Vettel - Australia 2009 (387 member(s) have cast votes)

  1. Sebastian Vettel (101 votes [26.23%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.23%

  2. Robert Kubica (66 votes [17.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.14%

  3. No one - it was a racing incident (212 votes [55.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 55.06%

  4. Other (6 votes [1.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.56%

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#1 RodrigoL

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 08:23

That was one of the most ridiculous incidents I've ever seen. Vettel was struggling with tyres, and Kubica had the speed to fight with Button.

So, who's fault was it?

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#2 Jambo

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 08:45

i voted Kubica but i reckon it was 60/40 if that.

#3 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 08:46

I don't know what kubica could have done to avoid it....
vettel screwed it, but it happens in racing. people forget he's still a kid.
racing wheel to wheel in f1 is a difficult job and with years aero we will se more of it :up:

kind of off topic but I find rubens' pass on kimi a lot more clumsier...

#4 wingwalker

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 08:49

Both at fault, racing accident which costed them dearly. Vettel should have stick to the inside, he knew Kubica car is there, but Kubica didn't leave him much room at all. Stupid stuff from both of them.

#5 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 08:52

I think vettel had way more than a car's width...

#6 Claudius

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 08:52

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
I don't know what kubica could have done to avoid it....
vettel screwed it, but it happens in racing. people forget he's still a kid.
racing wheel to wheel in f1 is a difficult job and with years aero we will se more of it :up:

kind of off topic but I find rubens' pass on kimi a lot more clumsier...


Kubica could have given him more room at the corner, Vettel had nowhere to go.

Look at Glock trying to pass Alonso at the last corner, Alonso takes a wider line to avoid Glock but still has the inside line for the next corner. Smart driving.

And I agree with the rubens comment, he was like a rookie today, all over the place. Like a kindergarden kid who cant control himself over his new toy. A it silly considering he is the driver with the most GPs... ever!

#7 Ferrim

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 09:54

Kubica was trying to pass in a very difficult place to do so. He took the risk because he probably felt he was in time to catch and pass Button for the win, if only he could get ahead of Vettel as soon as possible, so I won't blame him for trying. But attacking in the outside of a car which is struggling for grip and into such a deep corner is always a risk.

On the other hand, Vettel knew his tyres were pretty much over and it wasn't exactly the last lap, so Kubica would have passed him later anyway. Again, I won't blame him for trying, but I feel he's more to blame, he had nothing to win, Kubica had.

All in all, race incident, but Vettel should be more careful next time. For his own sake, actually.

#8 ensign14

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 09:59

Vettel given a 10 place grid penalty, on the BBC ticker.

#9 Garry

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 10:07

and a $50,000 fine.

Both for not pulling over with a damaged car. Not for the incident preceding it.

#10 JuanF1

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 12:08

Racing incident. And in my opinion nobody should ever be penalised unless it is might obvious that he intended to crash.

Thanks god the penalty to Vettel is due to not pulling over, otherwise I would be really angry.

#11 qwertyu

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 12:14

Vettel receiving fines and penalty.... F1 is going insane and ridiculous. This is racing!!!
Soon FIA will add turn signal lights to F1 cars that the pilots will have to use everytime they pass the driver in front.
Also pilots will not be allowed to pass if they don't get signed agreement (and shake their hands while driving) of the pilot in front.
Otherwise they will get a penalty and fine.
:stoned: :stoned: :stoned: :stoned: :stoned: :stoned: :stoned:

#12 wingwalker

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 12:22

Penalty for Vetter is utter bullshit. You can argue who was more at fault, but it was a classic racing incident: things like that tend to happen on the race track. Bollocks. And if Vettel is penalized for that, how come Rubens went away with causing a 3-cars pile up all on his own? Stewards screwing up big time, yet again. Maybe we should have a permanent 'this GP random penalty goes to..." thread.


edit: I mean the grid penalty. Fine for driving a damaged car is well justified.

#13 Markko

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 12:27

Think of that.

You are in 3 place. You are faster than leading cars. 3 laps to the end. You have a chance to win it. The driver ahead makes a mistake in turn 1. You are right behind him so you try to overtake.

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He is on the dirt side, and on low grip tyres. It is his problem not yours. He is early on the brakes.

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You think now or never. Than he decide to fight and stop braking for a moment to catch you before turn. He is late on the breakes now.
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You give him a room in the midle of the corner and you count that he has enough time to give up. But you are wrong.
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Robert is a title contender and you want him to collect points like a grandfather?!!!! Whats wrong with you people???

#14 noikeee

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 12:31

At the time I thought it was a racing incident, after watching the video a little more careful I'd say it's a little more Vettel's fault as he seems to slide on the outside of the turn into Kubica, but still it's very harsh to penalize him the way they did. Absolutely understandable the way he was trying to defend position, with crap tyres, and larger front wings that they're not used to race with.

#15 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 12:34

Racing incident, the problem with the set of screen shots above is it does not show the apex of the corner, that' where the coming together occurred, but from that set it looks like Seb just drove straight on at the corner.

It was a racing incident, 50/50 Seb shouldn't have come back so hot and RK should have left more room.

#16 Turn 1

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 12:54

LET THEM RACE FFS!

#17 NineOneSeven

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 12:55

It seemed to me that nobody wanted to yield the corner... Vettel should have lifted, but then I feel Kubica could have given more room. However I say it has two guys being very hard and giving no quarter... you need to do that in F1, you must fight! Perhaps this was just that little bit too much.

Saying that it seems Vettel has already claimed fault and apologised to RB and BMW... there we have it. Vettel says it was his bad.

#18 27GV

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 13:02

I'd have to say it was Vettel's fault. Others pulled out at that corner when they realized they were passed and yielded. Kubica was going to pass eventually. Vettel should have yeilded and Kubica should have given more room but the blame lies more on Vettel IMO because Kubica was in front. But this was bound to happen anyway, sad it cost them 2nd/3rd.

#19 WGD706

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 13:04

Originally posted by wingwalker
... how come Rubens went away with causing a 3-cars pile up all on his own? Stewards screwing up big time, yet again.


Barrichello made a slow start when his car momentarily stalled and was enveloped by the field. Coming to the first corner Heikki Kovalainen hit the rear of Barrichello, causing a chain reaction into Mark Webber and Nick Heidfeld - at the end of the first lap Heidfeld, Adian Sutil, Webber and Kovalainen pit with damage, Kovalainen retiring.

http://www.grandprix...4racenotes.html

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#20 Turn 1

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 13:05

Originally posted by NineOneSeven
It seemed to me that nobody wanted to yield the corner... Vettel should have lifted, but then I feel Kubica could have given more room. However I say it has two guys being very hard and giving no quarter... you need to do that in F1, you must fight! Perhaps this was just that little bit too much.

Saying that it seems Vettel has already claimed fault and apologised to RB and BMW... there we have it. Vettel says it was his bad.



He just invited the penalty when he apologised in the way he did as well, he didn't need to apologise. The stewards need to get it in their dense heads that every incident doesn't nessessary require a blame.

#21 HoldenRT

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 13:37

Originally posted by WGD706


Barrichello made a slow start when his car momentarily stalled and was enveloped by the field. Coming to the first corner Heikki Kovalainen hit the rear of Barrichello, causing a chain reaction into Mark Webber and Nick Heidfeld - at the end of the first lap Heidfeld, Adian Sutil, Webber and Kovalainen pit with damage, Kovalainen retiring.

http://www.grandprix...4racenotes.html

According to their PR comments, Rubens blames Heiki for hitting his rear (didn't notice that live but haven't rewatched yet) and Heiki blamed Webber for "having a moment".

It's pretty ridiculous that it wasn't investigated. Yes, it was racing but we saw some penalties at Fuji last year didn't we? And Lewis didn't even hit anyone! This incident ruined 4 drivers races.

#22 Ferrim

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 13:37

Absolutely stupid, absurd and bollocks penalty. Fine him if you want, but it's absolutely unjustified that they demote him 10 places in the grid for the next race.

#23 scheivlak

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 13:51

Originally posted by Markko

Robert is a title contender and you want him to collect points like a grandfather?!!!!

Well, especially if you want the title you sometimes just have to collect the points.
At least with the current points system.

It's the Lauda / Prost way....

#24 bankoq

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 13:51

Originally posted by 27GV
I'd have to say it was Vettel's fault. Others pulled out at that corner when they realized they were passed and yielded. Kubica was going to pass eventually. Vettel should have yeilded and Kubica should have given more room but the blame lies more on Vettel IMO because Kubica was in front. But this was bound to happen anyway, sad it cost them 2nd/3rd.


It didn't cost them 2nd/3rd. It cost Kubica CERATIN win. On the lap when Kubica collided with Vettel he was a couple of seconds faster. It was the lap when soft tires started to drop off massively. That's why Theissen said Kubica was 3s faster, becuase indeed he was.

It was 100% win. He would have finished several seconds ahead of Button.

#25 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 13:52

Originally posted by bankoq


It didn't cost them 2nd/3rd. It costed Kubica CERATIN win. On the lap when Kubica collided with Vettel he was a couple of seconds faster. It was the lap when soft tires started to drop off massively. That's why Theissen said Kubica was 3s faster, becuase indeed he was.

It was 100% win. He would have finished several seconds ahead of Button.

Can I borrow that crystal ball of yours?

#26 wingwalker

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 13:52

Originally posted by WGD706


Barrichello made a slow start when his car momentarily stalled and was enveloped by the field. Coming to the first corner Heikki Kovalainen hit the rear of Barrichello, causing a chain reaction into Mark Webber and Nick Heidfeld - at the end of the first lap Heidfeld, Adian Sutil, Webber and Kovalainen pit with damage, Kovalainen retiring.

http://www.grandprix...4racenotes.html



Fair enough, just watched the replay and RB definitely looks like was hit from the back. But in that case, Heikki should have gotten a grid penalty. It constantly amazes me how randomly are the penalties given.

#27 RedBaron

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 13:53



Everyone blamed Schumacher here at the same corner in 2005... so why now is it suddenly Vettel's fault? Nick was apparently squeezed, Vettel was squeezed today clearly by Robert. Nonsense penalty, hideous error on the part of the stewards.

#28 wingwalker

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 13:54

Originally posted by bankoq


It didn't cost them 2nd/3rd. It cost Kubica CERATIN win. On the lap when Kubica collided with Vettel he was a couple of seconds faster. It was the lap when soft tires started to drop off massively. That's why Theissen said Kubica was 3s faster, becuase indeed he was.

It was 100% win. He would have finished several seconds ahead of Button.



It wasn't a 100% win, it never is until the flag waves. Yeah, RK would be in a good position to pass Button and I'd put my money on him doing so, but he himself was on destroyed softs at the end of his stint and yet managed to keep Rosberg behind, even though being about 5 seconds slower than him. Winning the GP was a likely possibility for RK, just that.

#29 Mila

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 13:55

well, RK was ahead at the entry, apex, and exit; and SV wasn't.

strategically, it was a mistake by SV as well. he was the one off-line, in a much slower car. and given that chances were next to nothing that he was going to hold off RK for the remaining laps . . .

things like this aren't racing incidences, they're race-ending incidences, and SV ruined his own race. it's pretty simple: sometimes racing means not crashing.

that said, I don't like the grid penalty (for reasons including its arbitrariness).

#30 bankoq

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 13:56

Originally posted by wewantourdarbyback
Can I borrow that crystal ball of yours?


So you believe Button would have defended his position being 2-3s slower? Did you see how Rosberg was struggling on softs at the end of race? Same would happen to Button. Certain, 100% win that was.

#31 wingwalker

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 13:57

Originally posted by RedBaron


Everyone blamed Schumacher here at the same corner in 2005... so why now is it suddenly Vettel's fault? Nick was apparently squeezed, Vettel was squeezed today clearly by Robert. Nonsense penalty, hideous error on the part of the stewards.


Uh? That's a completely different accident. NH comes from the inside, RS changes his line under braking zone, NH takes avoiding actions and goes off before the apex. Not like RK-SV at all.

#32 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 13:59

Originally posted by bankoq


So you believe Button would have defended his position being 2-3s slower? Did you how Rosberg was struggling. Same would happen to Button. Certain, 100% that was.

Did I say that? :drunk:

#33 27GV

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:00

Originally posted by HoldenRT
According to their PR comments, Rubens blames Heiki for hitting his rear (didn't notice that live but haven't rewatched yet) and Heiki blamed Webber for "having a moment".

It's pretty ridiculous that it wasn't investigated. Yes, it was racing but we saw some penalties at Fuji last year didn't we? And Lewis didn't even hit anyone! This incident ruined 4 drivers races.


The "moment" was because Rubens was punted by Heikki if you watch the replays. Heikki then scoots past and hits the spinning Webber. It does look like Rubens brakes late but it's really because Heikki has hit him up the back if you see the high shot.

#34 wingwalker

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:00

Originally posted by bankoq


So you believe Button would have defended his position being 2-3s slower?



As I said RK defended his position against Rosberg while being 4-5 seconds slower. JB is not exactly masterful at defensive driving, but it's just speculations.

#35 LB

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:01

Message to the FIA stewards:

ITS A RACING INCIDENT

Can we please stop penalties every time there is action on the track?

#36 postajegenye

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:02

They shouldn't have penalized Vettel, even if it was his fault. At least they were racing.

#37 bankoq

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:05

Originally posted by wingwalker



As I said RK defended his position against Rosberg while being 4-5 seconds slower. JB is not exactly masterful at defensive driving, but it's just speculations.


In which part of the race was it?

#38 F1 Tor.

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:05

well, the incident was pretty silly and both drivers have to share some of the blame imo. Robert was clearly faster and was probably going to pass SV anyway, so I guess the argument could be made that Vettel should have yielded and collected third. Anyway, racing drivers are there to race and it's all split second stuff, so you can't be too hard on either of them. However, giving Vettel a penalty for the next race is just so wrong.

#39 tkulla

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:05

Originally posted by bankoq


So you believe Button would have defended his position being 2-3s slower? Did you see how Rosberg was struggling on softs at the end of race? Same would happen to Button. Certain, 100% win that was.


You're assuming Button was driving as fast as he could, which is very unlikely. I suspect he was conserving his tyres and had plenty of speed in reserve had Robert passed Seb. In my opinion Kubica should have waited for a better chance. Forcing the issue there was just too big of a gamble. You can say that Vettel should have backed off, but the guy was running second the whole race and shouldn't make it easy. The 10-place penalty for Malaysia is a travesty. What's the point of promoting overtaking with the tech regs if the FIA is just going to discourage it with crazy penalties. That penalty is as crazy as Piquet's brakes! :drunk:

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#40 EVO2

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:05

Just three points :

Sebastian Vettel made a mistake and Robert was a little too impatient.
60/40 IMO but definitely not serious enough for the result of the next race to be compromised before it even starts by the penalty.

There were far too many penalties handed out last season and this doesn't bode well for the rest of the season.

I really can't see how the BMW was going to catch up AND PASS Jenson Button before the flag.

#41 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:10

At the end of the day, even if one of them was to blame over the other, natural justice had been served in that they missed out on a podium. A warning not to be a repeat offender should have been the most they did.

Overall, I think it was a racing incident, but that Kubica should probably have left more room on the side. Yes he was ahead, but only half a car at most.

#42 kismet

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:16

I was surprised to hear about the penalty as the whole incident looked innocent enough not to merit disciplinary action. If anything, I thought Kubica was sort of asking for trouble there: he didn't do anything wrong per se but he knowingly, somewhat foolishly and arguably needlessly put himself in a position where the risk of something going wrong was rather high.

#43 wingwalker

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:21

Originally posted by tkulla


You're assuming Button was driving as fast as he could, which is very unlikely. I suspect he was conserving his tyres and had plenty of speed in reserve had Robert passed Seb.



Well, that's naturally only speculation, but I fully disagree. Once supersofts started to go to crap it was happening rapidly for everyone, and was going on and on and on, during the FP's and race. Vettel lost 1.5 over Kubica in less than half of the lap and could barely hold the car on the track in T1/2. Kubica was full 6 seconds off the pace at the last lap of his supersoft stints. That tire simply wasn't right for that track and imo Button was going as fast as he could, he was told on the radio Kubica e is threat and he did say after quali that he was slower (relatively) with a light car. Kubica was clocking fastest laps at that point and was what, 2.5-3 seconds behind?, it wasn't time for cruise and collect for Button.

#44 tahadar

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:23

looking at the replay of Kubica's crash after the tangle with Vettel, it appears that the loose front wheel hits him/near him very close to the head . surely this needs to be looked into...

#45 Juan Kerr

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:23

When Kubica decided to try and overtake Vettel around the outside of that corner of all corners he was making a decision that would contribute mostly to the likelihood of having an accident. He made that decision when he shouldn't have, he knew Vettel would not likely make it easy at that point and position of the race, Vettel's reaction was natural and it was harder for him to keep into the inside of the corner having been put in that position. Kubica made the risky decision and started the whole thing.

A true professional like Montoya however would've just pushed Kubica off mid-corner.

#46 wingwalker

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:25

Originally posted by tahadar
looking at the replay of Kubica's crash after the tangle with Vettel, it appears that the loose front wheel hits him/near him very close to the head . surely this needs to be looked into...


Going frame by frame, he ducks to avoid it, but I think there is no contact. But yeah, it could have been ugly.

#47 HMV

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:29

Originally posted by kismet
I was surprised to hear about the penalty as the whole incident looked innocent enough not to merit disciplinary action. If anything, I thought Kubica was sort of asking for trouble there: he didn't do anything wrong per se but he knowingly, somewhat foolishly and arguably needlessly put himself in a position where the risk of something going wrong was rather high.


Every overtaking maneuver is and will be dangerous, especially if you can't trust (and you really can't) the other car to behave like you'd expect. Kubica wanted the win, so he pushed. The crash wouldn't have happened if not for lack of grip from Vettel, which, judging by his laptimes, wasn't even his fault.

Bad karma happens. Tiers made the opportunity, tiers did the crash.

#48 Dragonfly

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:41

Originally posted by EVO2
Just three points :

Sebastian Vettel made a mistake and Robert was a little too impatient.
60/40 IMO but definitely not serious enough for the result of the next race to be compromised before it even starts by the penalty.

There were far too many penalties handed out last season and this doesn't bode well for the rest of the season.

I really can't see how the BMW was going to catch up AND PASS Jenson Button before the flag.

Yep.
I'd rather accept a penalty for staying on the track with a damaged car holding all cars behind him under SC rules and possibly threatening safety.

#49 Buckethead

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 15:07

Racing accident. No penalties should have been given.

Isn't this what Bernie and FIA wanted? People fighting for every position? So when they do fight, let's give them a penalty. And why Vettel should have let Kubica go? It was a second place! With Red Bull. I quess he thought there is no way Kubica can overtake him outside in that corner or something.

#50 jk

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 15:14

Vettel should not just have let Kubica go, but he should have fought the position fair. As it was, Vettel understeered into the side of Robert. That is Sebastians fault, considering his tires he should have been going slower through the corner.
Kubica made an optimistic move, but sensing the win he had to get through soon. He did leave Vettel enough room, but the german made a mistake.

All in all it was a racing accident. Vettel was mostly as fault (he was the one out of control and unable to stay on his part of the circuit), but it was definately not a deliberate attempt. I guess Robert could have been more carefull, but the move he did was fully legit. The blame was in my opinion 70/30 in Vettels favour, but nothing was intentionel and it was a racing incident. Of course none of them should even be questioned about the incident. Close racing for a podium finish in the dying laps is what the sport needs and should not be discouraged.