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Brawn hid true pace in Melbourne?


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#1 BrawnsBrain

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:07

Just for a moment go back to 1998 McLaren when had a break-steer device, it gave them a 1 second advantage over anyone else, they romped to a one-two and did the silly switch with Haikkenen at the end. Device promptly banned.

Go forward to 2009 and Brawn control the Grand Prix from pole, but Button never got beyond about 5 seconds from Vettel or indeed Kubica, despite having a 1 second per lap fuel corrected advantage in quali.

Yes tyres in the final stint played a part, but I think Button paced himself to Vettel in the first 2 thirds of the GP, rather than romping off 1 second a lap faster than anybody else, with the risk of destroying his tyres and car in the process.

I think Brawn have more in the bag than Melbourne showed. :eek:

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#2 irish_sean69

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:11

That is a very good piont. Buton was like 4 second clear after the first lap and thats about how far he stayed in front. Hopefully more to come from Brawn

#3 Enkei

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:12

Originally posted by irish_sean69
That is a very good piont. Buton was like 4 second clear after the first lap and thats about how far he stayed in front. Hopefully more to come from Brawn


Hopefully not, I like to see a bit of competition..

#4 Clatter

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:14

Brawn have said all along that they have reliability worries due to the lack of testing. Buttons car required a new 4th gear to be fitted after Q's, so they were pacing themselves because of that.

#5 Francesc

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:15

It's obvious Brawn were hiding their real pace, they were doing just enough to win the race

#6 Scotracer

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:18

Originally posted by Francesc
It's obvious Brawn were hiding their real pace, they were doing just enough to win the race



Yup

#7 muramasa

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:21

the point is that their lack of testing mileage.

not showing true pace yet that's correct, but not that they hid on purpose. they didnt have time for fine-tuning the car during winter, which can only be disadvantage.

reliability is one major concern, and tyre use and lap time stability are another big concerns for them.

#8 stevvy1986

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:21

Would probably say they had too many reliability concerns (no previous race distance, lack of testing, changing 4th gear on Button's car after quali) to go full speed-Rubens may have tried going full speed given where he was after the first lap, and though some say his fastest lap was slower than some others, it's worth remembering that most of the race he was in traffic trying to pass people, and he'd sustained some damage in the 1st corner incident which also no doubt cost him a bit of pace

#9 Enzoluis

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:21

Originally posted by Scotracer



Yup


May be, you never know, the question is why RB where not catching up so fast, he reached the podium only after DFN of 3 contenders.

#10 27GV

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:22

They did; which is annoying, because the battle behind is quite interesting. It will very quickly get old if Brawn goes 1-2 each race from now on. ):

#11 stevvy1986

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:22

Originally posted by Enzoluis


May be, you never know, the question is why RB where not catching up so fast, he reached the podium only after DFN of 3 contenders.


had to get through traffic (some of which had KERS to help them, plus Melbourne isn't renowned for being full of overtaking) plus he damaged the car in turn 1, which will have cost him a bit of pace

#12 Scotracer

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:32

Originally posted by Enzoluis


May be, you never know, the question is why RB where not catching up so fast, he reached the podium only after DFN of 3 contenders.


His car had been damaged and he was running much more fuel (the strategy had been changed mid-race) than the others around him. It wasn't one of Ruben's better races to be honest.

#13 Enzoluis

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:35

Originally posted by stevvy1986


had to get through traffic (some of which had KERS to help them, plus Melbourne isn't renowned for being full of overtaking) plus he damaged the car in turn 1, which will have cost him a bit of pace


Well I don´t remember see him stucked behind anybody neither befor and after the first pit stop when they ixed the front. Also fastest laps of both JB and RB were not so far from the other drivers.

#14 Peter Perfect

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:36

One thing that caught my eye/ear after the race was Ross on the radio to Button congratulating him on a very professional performance. It might be nothing but it seemed a slightly strange thing to say. Of course it would make more sense if Button had been managing his car all the way through and not going flat out.

#15 engel

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:42

I don't think they "hid their pace" I think with reliability and sponsorship being a major issue their sole concern was to get Button in clean air and just do enough to win, not stamp dominance. And most people in their shoes would have done the same, not out of a desire to hide the car's potential, more out the pragmatic need to win, secure sponsorship etc

#16 Enzoluis

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:42

Originally posted by Peter Perfect
One thing that caught my eye/ear after the race was Ross on the radio to Button congratulating him on a very professional performance. It might be nothing but it seemed a slightly strange thing to say. Of course it would make more sense if Button had been managing his car all the way through and not going flat out.


Not strange at all, he had the fastest car made the pole and take the victory. He made the work he is supposed to do for his sallary, "professional". May be that is in contras with RB that missed the start and was lucky to get the podium.

#17 djellison

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:46

Originally posted by Francesc
It's obvious Brawn were hiding their real pace, they were doing just enough to win the race


They were just doing enough to win the race. That doesn't mean they went out with the intention of hiding their real pace.

Those forecasting tedium if they continue to dominate.....welcome to the world of any non-Ferrari fan in 2001/2

#18 J2NH

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 13:06

Take the safety car out and JB would have been miles in front.

Agree with djellison, engel, and Peter Perfect as well.

It makes no sense in Modern F1, unfortunately, to go out and go 10/10's from the start to finish. 8 engines for the season and 4 race gearboxes mean manage the race and do what is necessary to win and nothing more.

#19 lwd

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 13:08

I think Jenson was pretty much going as fast as he could. He said himself after the race that conditions were difficult and he'd had problems with the second 'hard' set, as well as the obvious fading off of the softs.

I think if they were just pacing themselves they would have gone for a bigger buffer than 4 seconds. With only 4 seconds you still cannot afford to make any mistakes.

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#20 Dalton007

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 13:08

They might have been sandbagging because they didn't want to feed more blood to the anti-diffuser group. There's definitely more pace in that car than we saw.

#21 Matt Somers

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 13:10

Originally posted by J2NH
Take the safety car out and JB would have been miles in front.

Agree with djellison, engel, and Peter Perfect as well.

It makes no sense in Modern F1, unfortunately, to go out and go 10/10's from the start to finish. 8 engines for the season and 4 race gearboxes mean manage the race and do what is necessary to win and nothing more.


Exactly, there always seemed to be enough of a cushion. I would say RB pushed his car harder due to the front wing breakage and trying to catch up.

#22 howardt

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 13:15

Not sure about this. There are plenty of comments on other threads about how it was completely Kubica's race and as sure as eggs is eggs he would have caught and passed Button but for the mishap with Seb V. It was only a 1-2 courtesy of this accident. Also note that the 2 Toyotas started in the pitlane and finished very strongly indeed. Neither Ferrari driver shone, but we will see much better from both of these. Alonso was on the backfoot after missing Q3 on Saturday, but will be a threat in future. Mclaren and Ferrari in particular will no doubt have an aggressive development schedule and I'd expect some new parts for race 4 onwards.

Maybe they could have had a little more pace in Melbourne, but I think they didn't need it because the opposition collectively shot themselves in the feet, I don't believe the Brawns are 1s/lap better than the field. This season dominance is too early to call based on just 1 GP, especially as Melbourne is very rarely "typical" of the results for the rest of the season. I think I shall reserve judgment until next Sunday. Malaysia is a little bit different as a circuit. I don't think that the BGP cars will be cruising to a 1-2 there.

#23 HoldenRT

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 13:15

I noticed a point in the middle stint where Vettel had closed tenth by tenth over Button over a number of laps. And then in one lap, Button went alot quicker and erased the margin Vettel had been nibbling at in one lap.

In the final stint however, I don't think there was any "keeping speed" in reserve. But on the harder tyre they seemed to have some good speed in reserve. Big leads were pointless because they would be erased by SC anyway.

#24 AFCA

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 13:23

Originally posted by HoldenRT
I noticed a point in the middle stint where Vettel had closed tenth by tenth over Button over a number of laps. And then in one lap, Button went alot quicker and erased the margin Vettel had been nibbling at in one lap.


Originally posted by AFCA
Vettel doesn't think he could have really won the race: ''Button played with us.'' Horner agrees: ''Button pulled out a lead and then held on to that. But today we were the best of the rest and we were the closest to Brawn GP.'' According to Horner RBR only lacked 0.4 seconds to Brawn GP.



#25 David Ricardo

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 13:24

I guess they were hiding their path because I would also do that if I was them, but it´s difficult to say. We will know in the next few races, when the diffusers get the green light.

#26 wingwalker

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 13:27

It looked to me like they weren't going full on for the 2/3 of the race. By 'they' I mean Button. But I agree with HoldenTR, Button didn't have a dominant pace in the last stint (he said after quali car is relateviely faster with fuel in it, Q2 and Q3 times compared to the rest confim that). If you listen to Brawn and Fry, they were genuinely worried about Kubica at the end, even his regular pace was enough to get right behind Button at the flag and quite likely to win the position if the Button softs acted like everyone's else softs. So it's very hard to judge, as for example Vettel and Kubica race pace was incredible considering their quali pace, so every team has some work to get their setups straight.

#27 BrawnsBrain

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 13:51

I think Button's smooth driving style will pay off this year, as apposed to more aggressive drivers such as Alonso. These tyres have to go some - they need to be looked after. The soft tyre barely lasts 5 laps without going off.

Rosberg was 6 seconds off the pace in his final stint!!

#28 Barramut

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 16:16

Originally posted by engel
I don't think they "hid their pace" I think with reliability and sponsorship being a major issue their sole concern was to get Button in clean air and just do enough to win, not stamp dominance. And most people in their shoes would have done the same, not out of a desire to hide the car's potential, more out the pragmatic need to win, secure sponsorship etc

Dito. :up:

Furthermore, they have 7 [?] engines for 17 races this year. They have to same the engines
Also, the rear tires are smalled [width] than they should be, a confessed mistake from FIA. So they have to nurse tire grain.

The good thing is Jenson and Rubens seems to be mature enought to know what to do and follow Brawn's race strategies.
If Brawm keeps demonstrating they are much more faster then the field, FIA will cut their wings.

Sandbag is needed and justified. :

#29 mclarensmps

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 16:19

We're talking about Ross Brawn here. MOST DEFINITELY they are hiding their true pace.

More power to them, to be honest.

From a McLaren point of view, we must just try harder and harder to catch up.

Hopefully fortune favours OUR few a few more times before we have a competitive package!

Aside from Brawn being head and shoulders above the rest, the rest of the grid is so mixed up, that, to me, it's not that big a deal anyway :). We just need a better race director than the one we had in Australia, though.

#30 Urawa

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 16:20

Alonso says Brawn might win every race this year if they don´t ban the diffusor :eek:

#31 Jones Foyer

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 16:20

I think their true pace was much slower. Jenson was just going intentionally faster than the car was capable.

#32 BuzzingHornet

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 16:24

Originally posted by Jones Foyer
I think their true pace was much slower. Jenson was just going intentionally faster than the car was capable.


Troll alert :lol:

#33 Buttoneer

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 16:27

Originally posted by BrawnsBrain
I think Button's smooth driving style will pay off this year, as apposed to more aggressive drivers such as Alonso. These tyres have to go some - they need to be looked after. The soft tyre barely lasts 5 laps without going off.

His last stint lap times were remarkably consistent, in fact. Which either means his early stint lap times were engine/gearbox limited or the car/driving style are kind to the tyres so they last. The fact that he didn't have to try too hard, or drive close to a car in front, probably helped here.

#34 engel

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 16:35

His last stint was on 10 laps worth of fuel and the options, I m sure he was holding back saving the tires in case Robert mounted an attack. His earlier stints were on heavy fuel loads and were affected by it.

#35 pRy

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 16:48

One thing to keep in mind with the first lap is Vettel was all over the place. He had people all over him at the start, went slightly wide in turn 1 and was having to defend for the next few corners. THat probably allowed Button to get the jump on him. Impressive stuff however.. the biggest opening lap lead in a while. Hamilton came close at China but that was wet conditions I think?

I'm sure Brawn probably did run with lower revs due to lack of testing.. but that opening lap was perhaps less impressive than it seemed.. although I'm sure his lead would have still been good regardless.

#36 kNt

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 17:42

Actually with knowing you opponents fuel load at the start, you could pull off such a strategy. He knew everybody was going to pit before him that was close so he had a save margin.

#37 inca_roads

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 19:45

5 seconds or so seems to me to be a bit small to be taking things easy. It doesn't cover you for small, silly things like pit-stop delay or a slight off. If Button had pulled 10 seconds+ and then just maintained it, I'd be more inclined to believe it.

However, I'm not sure exactly how fine they would be willing to cut it, and comments from teams/drivers seem to suggest they were playing it safe, so who knows. We'll find out soon enough, I guess.

#38 Walsingham

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 19:53

Im sure they are. They are hiding their pace in a big bag and they'll pull it out in the last part of season when the others will start to catch them in development race.

#39 PNSD

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 20:23

Originally posted by inca_roads
5 seconds or so seems to me to be a bit small to be taking things easy. It doesn't cover you for small, silly things like pit-stop delay or a slight off. If Button had pulled 10 seconds+ and then just maintained it, I'd be more inclined to believe it.

However, I'm not sure exactly how fine they would be willing to cut it, and comments from teams/drivers seem to suggest they were playing it safe, so who knows. We'll find out soon enough, I guess.


Funny you say that because he had a small pitstop delay that cost him 4.6 seconds i think it was...

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#40 Willy_Wonka

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 20:27

Originally posted by djellison



Those forecasting tedium if they continue to dominate.....welcome to the world of any non-Ferrari fan in 2001/2


Just what i was thinking, especially as a humble jenson fan

#41 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 22:40

Button, Haug and Domenicalli think the Brawn could have gone a fair bit faster: http://www.itv-f1.co...e.aspx?id=45404

#42 BiH

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 03:56

yeah button was managing the pace to vettel he could have gone in the 1:27 considering they were the only ones to run 1:24 in q2. hopefully someone pushes them in sepang to really see how fast they can go, i think ferrari might have them covered at sepang on super soft tires.

#43 D.M.N.

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 07:48

Mark Hughes leaning towards opinion that they could have gone faster: http://news.bbc.co.u...one/7972046.stm

#44 wj_gibson

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 08:57

The team and both drivers made errors in the race and they still scored a 1-2 - I don't think they "hid" their true pace so much as failed to access it properly.

EDIT: the word "significant" has been removed after causing grievous emotional harm to cetain contributors.

#45 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 11:57

Originally posted by D.M.N.
Mark Hughes leaning towards opinion that they could have gone faster: http://news.bbc.co.u...one/7972046.stm


Hughes doing BBC, ITV and Autosport at the same time?

OT for a sec - Interesting to see ITV F1 is still going with Hughes and Allen commenting. Its actually a really good site still. Probably packaged better than the new BBC F1 effort even tho the vids have adverts and its not as interactive.

#46 Gareth

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 12:32

Unnamed insider at Brawn reckons they could have gone faster: http://www.guardian....s-jenson-button

#47 Willy_Wonka

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 12:33

Originally posted by wj_gibson
The team and both drivers made significant errors in the race and they still scored a 1-2 - I don't think they "hid" their true pace so much as failed to access it properly.


Jenson was error free in the race, he had a little moment in the pits, but that was it, so please tell me what significant error he made ?
Drama and queen spring to mind here.

#48 tkulla

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 14:28

Without Rubens' start line error, I wonder how they would have handled the race. These two guys are very willing to battle, so they would have been pushing hard to beat each other. Unless there is some sort of gentleman's agreement, of course.

#49 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 14:34

Originally posted by tkulla
Without Rubens' start line error, I wonder how they would have handled the race. These two guys are very willing to battle, so they would have been pushing hard to beat each other. Unless there is some sort of gentleman's agreement, of course.


Brawn and Barrichello both said absolutely no team orders before race. Brawn said they can do what they want as long as they dont take each other out.

#50 tkulla

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 14:52

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor


Brawn and Barrichello both said absolutely no team orders before race. Brawn said they can do what they want as long as they dont take each other out.


But if they're genuinely worried about reliability (or showing too much pace) how do they do that if their drivers are driving flat out to beat each other?