62 replies to this topic

[Blythy]

http://www.empireonl...y.asp?NID=24493

it'll be wrong!! Where's the senna biopic... or even...

surely a mansell biopic would be better suited to hollywood - a man beset by bad luck, to have the championship won by hte evil piquet only in 1992 to win it and then, find happiness in america.

[Arion]

Two ferrari drivers, teammate battle, tragic twist...sounds like Gilles and Didier

[gerry nassar]

Wow - had no idea about this!

Though being a period film, it should be of much greater quality than we may expect (ie Driven). Looking forward to what they can do.

But JEFF Hill? Only American to win a title? This worries me a bit.

I'd love to see the Senna film as well. Antonio Banderes isnt getting any younger.

[rolf123]

lol "Jeff Hill"?? wtf

[Arion]

probably they don't want to use his real name due to copyright issues or something

[Orin]

Jeff Hill, one of the greats!

Is this really the best story? What about the Rodriguez brothers, or Gille Villeneuve, or Senna/Prost? Phil Hill was by all accounts a mild mannered man in a clearly superior car, it doesn't sound like blockbuster material. How about Colin Chapman's gory/glory days? EDIT: or the career of Graham Hill?

[Rich]

It will suck, as do all racing films. The film-makers want to make human drama stories about lantern-jawed hunks who win big-tittie girlies and who overtake the evil villain simply by pressing the accelerator a bit harder. They even include the obligatory CU shot of his right foot pressing down on the gas pedal to show you how much racing talent it takes to accomplish.

The hardcore fans want a techumentary where the dialogue centres around trail braking, the correct line through Stavelot and a million other minutiae that the mass market moviegoers neither know nor care about. Bringing the two together is an impossible task.

I, for one, am eternally grateful that Hollywood has let the Senna story be. If they made a movie that satisfied hardcore fans, it would be an abysmal box office failure and a lousy movie in general. If they make a mass appeal Senna movie, it will turn the man into something he wasn't and make caricatures of the real-life people who influenced and raced against him.

It's probably best to let the various Senna documentaries tell the story, and leave the wide-screen to other subjects. The only racing film that worked as a movie was Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby, because it took the mickey out of everything. There is nothing more doomed to failure than a racing film that takes itself seriously.

[NineOneSeven]

Rich: Grand Prix didn't 'suck' nor did Le Mans or Winning! What are you on about!

I think they SHOULD make this film and the Senna film and be true to the game and the people depicted, even if that means showing the ruthlessness in pursuing the sport.

Bring it on!

[Rich]

As collections of shots for racing fans to see their favourite cars racing on their favourite circuits, Grand Prix and Le Mans worked well. Both of these films were released when most racing fans got their information from the newspapers, not from televised races. So seeing any racing action on the big screen was a huge novelty and thrill. However, as movies (ie human stories told on film), they both blew chunks bigger than Vesuvius. I still watch Grand Prix occasionally on TCM, and the dialogue, acting, plastic caricatures and general plot still make me wince every time.

Talladega Nights, on the other hand, was a hoot from start to finish. "How did it go, honey?" "I didn't learn nuthin, I got mauled by a cougar and my Crystal Gayle shirt got ruined" is as good as it gets. It was also platic caricatures, but in a comedy that's expected.

If they put scenes in the Senna movie where he gets blindfolded and drives through the side of a wooden house in an attempt to rediscover his mojo, I'm first in line to buy a ticket.

The scene where Ricky Bobby confronts his Dad about the "If you ain't first, you're last" motto, and then gets told by Pop that he was stoned when he said it and it makes no sense whatsoever, was a brilliant dig at the faux-heroics of sports films in general. "Loose is fast and fast is on the edge of out of control" (or however the line went) is too lame for words. You can't put lines like that in a serious movie. Not even if Robert Duvall is saying them.

[Driver]

Sadly, Rich is right...

I think the problem is that the average movie viewer simply does not have the "grammar" necessary to understand driving at the limit. That's why in almost every movie that includes some fast driving, all you see is someone sawing at the steering wheel, shifting, and stomping the gas pedal. That's the complete grammar of driving in movies...if you showed anything else, you'd have to subtitle it just like you would if you made the movie in Urdu.

I have been bugged by this for a long time and have a theory that this could be resolved with some clever movie making where you sneak an education in driving into a movie (or series of movies). You'd have to be careful not to make it TOO educational (nobody wants to go to the movies to be taught) but I think it could be done. After a bit of education, I think you could make a pretty good driving movie that might even sell.

[wide-front-wing]

:

I'm going to have to disagree. Grand Prix classic movie, Talledega nights, not so much...

[RoutariEnjinu]

Originally posted by Rich
It will suck, as do all racing films. The film-makers want to make human drama stories about lantern-jawed hunks who win big-tittie girlies and who overtake the evil villain simply by pressing the accelerator a bit harder. They even include the obligatory CU shot of his right foot pressing down on the gas pedal to show you how much racing talent it takes to accomplish.

Or what about a duel on a back straight lasting 10 minutes with 50 gear changes.

At the end of the day, the majority of people are morons; they'll have learned from the (at the time, excluding cult following) unpopularity of the more realistic racing films, and to maximise profits (which is what the game is about), they'll be appealing to these morons.

I watched Le Mans last night, and it was stunning, but some of the scripted crashes were so obviously induced and deliberate. Although I suppose crashing being as unpredictable as it is, it would be very hard to make it seem completely authentic. The car exploding like dynamite after it flew off the track was laughable too. Being rapidly engulfed in flames is one thing, but from dented car lacking panels to mushroom cloud fireball is quite another.

At the end of the day, there's enough drama in real Formula 1, and in the actual archives themselves, so if they're making a film, expect it to be cheesy. Especially with Toby. I'd be VERY surprised if he could pull off acting serious and as cut throat as the racer they want to imagine for the film. His Goth-Spiderman alter ego effort wasn't very good.

That said I think it would be possible to make a general racing film that even the ignorant would find thrilling, I just don't think Hollywood has the talent. And using CGI animation for any kind of car motion would be a BIG 'no no', unless it was 3d scanned in, or was atleast behaving against some kind of physics constraints, and not just KeyFrame animation like the BBC intro.

[Dolph]

Originally posted by NineOneSeven
Rich: Grand Prix didn't 'suck' nor did Le Mans or Winning! What are you on about!

Rich is right, those movies were effectively car porn.

[Rich]

Originally posted by wide-front-wing
:

I'm going to have to disagree. Grand Prix classic movie, Talledega nights, not so much...

Neither of them are classics. But Talladega Nights was never intended to be, it's just a bit of throwaway comedy fun, and works well at that.

Grand Prix took itself seriously, and almost every major film critic rated it as a "bomb". It's a cult classic only, meaning "a film that is only enjoyed by a small niche market". That niche market being hardcore racing fans who couldn't care less about plot, characterisation, dialogue, pacing, etc as long as they get to see their favourite machines buzzing around classic circuits.

If John Frankenheimer had cut out all the non-racing scenes and replaced them with yet more racing footage, the hardcore fans would have loved it even more. That illustrates just how dire it was as a human story.

[Dolph]

Originally posted by wide-front-wing
:

I'm going to have to disagree. Grand Prix classic movie, Talledega nights, not so much...

I dare you to find a non-hardcore racing fan to agreed with your statement.

[wide-front-wing]

Originally posted by Dolph


I dare you to find a non-hardcore racing fan to agreed with your statement.

How about the Academy, are they "hard core" racing fans?

Grand Prix won 3 Oscars.

[Rich]

All in the technical fields - Sound Effects, Sound, Film Editing. If you drew up a list of Oscar-winning movies in these categories, you'd find an awful lot of dross among them. For example, Rambo II, Lethal Weapon 2 and Under Siege were all nominated for Best Sound Effects, and Pearl Harbor actually won the Oscar for it. Doesn't make these movies classics, does it? These awards are merely indicative of technical innovation or excellence.

Grand Prix was technically innovative, no doubt. But a truly great film needs more. A lot more.

[Ivan]

I hope it's not as bad as Drivel was.

[Blythy]

hmm If you had to make a film about modern F1, it would have to be like dr strangelove in a way.

- The ultra passionate team, who are fast, but make stupid mistakes and so resort to some blatent cheating
- The ultra efficient germanic team, who are in several shades of gray, who have drivers with no personality and a howard hughes figure as a manager.
- The party team who crash out all the time as the drivers are all hyper on their energy drink.
- The small british independent team, full of people called nigel and lionel, who are slow and lust about the glory days
- The journey-owner team based in britain, with an ever changing owner from a random country, who feels the need to rebrand the team as "ultra stealth tech" every time it changes hands, and always end up near the end of the pack.

It could start out with the season opener, where every team is full of confidence about how fast they are, only to be beaten by the only team who has quietly spent ages developing their car.

Eventually as the season progresses, it turns out a team has a part that is 3mm outside of the regulations, which gives them a massive performance boost, apparantly, which causes everyone to look away from the racing to consider the court case. No one can remember which car exactly broke the regulations in the first place, as everyone has developed the part as well to "maintain the pace" so the regulations have top be updated. Of course by this time, everyone has forgotten to develop the rest of the car, apart from the party team, who had 1 guy working back a the factory on the car, who creams the rest of the field in the final race, and wins the season.

meanwhile, some small old guy with a stupid haircut makes a ****ing fortune, only for him to give it to his wife for tax reasons, who ends up divorcing him, leaving him penniless. Actually, no, that ending is too hollywood. I'd have him just make off with the cash.

[Blaka Da Uglav]

Originally posted by Ivan
I hope it's not as bad as Drivel was.

Impossible.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Jeff Hill v Wolfgang von Tripps...... factually accurate then ;)

[kNt]

Hmm I think today there could be some drama in the mvie via a botched pitstop, a banned car, not enough fuel, an engine blowup etc. without the need for atricificial "press the pedal harder" moments.

[Tenmantaylor]

Originally posted by rolf123
lol "Jeff Hill"?? wtf

Probably thought "Phil Hill" ryhmed too much to be accurate.

[GerardF1]

I see in the article that they list "jeff Hill" as the only American to win the WDC .. guess Andretti didn't have his press agent vetting the news

[lustigson]

Originally posted by GerardF1
I see in the article that they list "jeff Hill" as the only American to win the WDC .. guess Andretti didn't have his press agent vetting the news

True. Although they might have wanted to say, the only US-born driver to win the WDC...

[Craven Morehead]

Originally posted by Driver
Sadly, Rich is right...

I think the problem is that the average movie viewer simply does not have the "grammar" necessary to understand driving at the limit. That's why in almost every movie that includes some fast driving, all you see is someone sawing at the steering wheel, shifting, and stomping the gas pedal. That's the complete grammar of driving in movies...if you showed anything else, you'd have to subtitle it just like you would if you made the movie in Urdu.

I think you're right. As an example of the chronic lack of knowledge/ interest it seems that the guy who wrote the article in question thinks that 'Driven; is a Formula One movie. WHile I freely admit I've never watched it (I saw a preview once, that was already more than enough thanx), I'm pretty sure its about Indy car racing in the USA. You'd think the guy who's paid to write the information article for public consumption would bother to know that. Afterall that's not even racing knowledge, that's just movie knowledge isn't it?

[RoutariEnjinu]

Originally posted by wewantourdarbyback
Jeff Hill v Wolfgang von Tripps...... factually accurate then ;)

You can bet it will be "a naul er'meriken hearo" vs some evil communist german rivalry too.

This is why bootleg movies work. If I've watched a bootleg movie, and genuinly thought it was well done, I ALWAYS buy it to add to my shelf as something to be proud of owning. If it's a shoddy 2nd rate movie, as so much of them are, it gets watched, and the people who made it don't get paid by me.
I think piracy is the a form of natural selection for shitty film studios. I bet it affects the shitty ones far more than the genuinly original and brilliant ones.

[SeanValen]

Originally posted by GerardF1
I see in the article that they list "jeff Hill" as the only American to win the WDC .. guess Andretti didn't have his press agent vetting the news

Yeah, I noticed that:smoking:



The Limit
I would like to see the film filmed in black and white, give it that period piece drama flamboyant slick may I take your coat madam touch.

[Jackman]

Originally posted by Rich
The scene where Ricky Bobby confronts his Dad about the "If you ain't first, you're last" motto, and then gets told by Pop that he was stoned when he said it and it makes no sense whatsoever, was a brilliant dig at the faux-heroics of sports films in general. "Loose is fast and fast is on the edge of out of control" (or however the line went) is too lame for words. You can't put lines like that in a serious movie. Not even if Robert Duvall is saying them.

Jenson Button disagrees with you.

[Rich]

Wasn't Jenson just taking the piss? I seem to recall him laughing uproariously when he quoted the line.

Oh, and Jackman... good job. Although it was Robert Duvall who says the line in the movie, not Tom Cruise.;)

The line also illustrates the perils of trying to "educate" moviegoers about the technical details of racing. They worked in the premise that Tom Cruise didn't know the difference between "push" and "loose" so Robert Duvall had to explain it to him. And, by extension, to the audience. Which was the whole point of the scene.

It worked to an extent that at least some of the audience would have learned a little bit about racing and car setup from that dialogue. However, the plot premise that a young driver is blindingly fast and ready to win major NASCAR races - but doesn't know the difference between understeer and oversteer - was laughable to any remotely serious fan of the sport.

It's awful screenwriting and breaks one of the ground rules of the trade - "Make your characters talk to each other, not to the audience".

So, again, it comes down to either pleasing the masses and pissing off the hardcore fans (or making them laugh at a serious movie), or pleasing the hardcore fans with a techumentary and have the mass market shrug their shoulders and go "Huh, wtf was that all about?" There is no easy compromise that I can think of. In that sense, I agree with Button. Making a "good" racing movie is not really viable. :

[Jackman]

Originally posted by Rich
Wasn't Jenson just taking the piss? I seem to recall him laughing uproariously when he quoted the line.

Oh, and Jackman... good job. Although it was Robert Duvall who says the line in the movie, not Tom Cruise.;)

Originally I thought he was taking the piss, but he was serious: he was laughing at us because Bira and I were so visibly shocked that he would quote it

Oh, and I've obviously never seen that movie, so how would I know who he was quoting
And besides, Bira was the one who told me it was the Cruiser...

[RoutariEnjinu]

"Making a "good" racing movie is not really viable."

And perhaps not necessary? Surely the best porno is just two people slapping pelvises.

To try and put a plot to race is just as redundant when you can watch an actual race?

[Jackman]

So watch a race then: some people like to watch movies, and those people usually like little bonuses like a plot and dialogue.

[SeanValen]

Originally posted by RoutariEnjinu
"Making a "good" racing movie is not really viable."

And perhaps not necessary? Surely the best porno is just two people slapping pelvises.

To try and put a plot to race is just as redundant when you can watch an actual race?

Films on sports are based also on commenting on the human condition through characters. I think the 20th century f1 eras, had plenty of characters, Senna/Gilles, but how you carve out a character facts based movie plus provide entertainment is a tough, you need a good scriptwriter and someone who can study f1 for what it is, I think it's not impossible to create a good film on f1, just difficult to get and please every party.
But if they concentrate on character/people very well, they can't go too wrong. F1 has ingredients for a good film, if you got the right people using the ingredients to bake the cake we want.

I personally think a Senna film should of been made a while ago, I think someone like Oliver Stone could even create a good JFK type mystery surrounding his death and his last days, cover his mystical nature as well as the man many didn't see, but got to know through documentries after his death. The way the sport changed after, and the way it was before, the risk taking,the running out of luck, Senna was explosive in press conferences, but again, because of the legend of the man, it's gotta be done right, but can be done.


A Michael Schumacher film, was discussed, I think Spa 1998, the huge crash, the smashing into DC, the rain, the belgium landscape, Michael's preparations before Spa 98 at Enzo's house, a mini film based around that itself would be cool, because that was one of the most dramatic GPs we've had, and repercussions on the title. Maybe Michael can give some input into his thinking more at specific times of his career, he certainly revealed more after his retirement, plus the man was behind Senna and saw him die, he the Michael started out and saw the end of the Senna/Prost/Mansell era, he was like a crossing bridge link into the f1 we see now, Michael saw it all. The Ferrari pressure cooker in 1999, his accident, when he thought he was going to die, good points for a film, his thoughts about helping Eddie Irvine win the title in the last 2 races, what was on his mind? Again, good stuff for a film. And his retirement of 2006, what were those last races like, all dramatic, full of drama, there's a film there.

[RoutariEnjinu]

Anyone here seen 'The fastest Indian' ?

I quite liked that.

[The Lonely]

It says Phil Hill in other articles. So I presume the editor of the linked article here screwed up.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Jackman
Originally I thought he was taking the piss, but he was serious: he was laughing at us because Bira and I were so visibly shocked that he would quote it

Ahahaha. I remember bira playing me the sound file of that part. It obviously made quite an impression on her.

[Jackman]

Dude, the sound clip is on the link I posted

[Jackman]

Actually, on topic Phil Hill's story is a potentially good one for a movie: he was a lovely bloke and I spoke to him a bunch of times, but he was still clearly haunted by the past, and in particular the 61 season. My sense is that he was an astonishingly natural talent who was supremely fast, but he was intrinsically too nice to be a racing driver.

[klyster]

Originally posted by RoutariEnjinu
Anyone here seen 'The fastest Indian' ?

I quite liked that.

Was a good film, Anthony even had a good kiwi accent ;)

[Rich]

Originally posted by RoutariEnjinu
"Making a "good" racing movie is not really viable."

And perhaps not necessary? Surely the best porno is just two people slapping pelvises.

Which explains why there are no porno titles among the lists of classic movies.

Originally posted by RoutariEnjinu
To try and put a plot to race is just as redundant when you can watch an actual race?

What Jackman said. There is a big difference between a live race broadcast and a wide screen movie. A cinema release shouldn't just be an excuse to show racing footage in a different format. However, it is this very reason that is responsible for much of the mystique and adoration behind Grand Prix.

At the time it was released, "motor racing" for me meant going to Kyalami three or four times a year to watch the day's racing. And only one of those was the Grand Prix, the other meetings were local series or the 9 hour endurance race. So we actually watched GP cars for a grand total of two hours per year. We had no television coverage in those days. Other than attending the local GP, all we got was pictures of other GP in overseas magazines.

Then Grand Prix was released and, for the very first time, we could see the cars racing around Monza, Monaco, Spa and other legendary circuits. Of course it didn't need a good plot or any of the other elements of classic good cinema. The sheer novelty of it was enough to make us leave the cinema with stars in our eyes. And then go back to see it again the next night. And again the night after that.

That is what turned Grand Prix into a cult classic, not the quality of the dramatic elements that went into the story. It remains an extremely pedestrian effort at telling a human story. And I'm being kind there, because I have such fond memories of the film. For someone who isn't a hardcore racing fan, Grand Prix has almost nothing to recommend it.

[Risil]

The best sports films, as SeanValen eloquently put it, use sport as a prism for the human condition in strange-but-famililar situations. The only successful sports films I can think of that incorporated significant amounts of the actual 'sport' would be boxing films; Raging Bull, even Rocky. Of course, there's something more primal and 'human' about people punching each other repeatedly, than driving a car imperceptibly quicker than everyone else.

There are a few drivers whose stories might make an excellent film, though. A lighthearted (and flag-waving) one about A.J. Foyt and Dan Gurney conquering Le Mans would have some serious potential. The whole 1930s racing scene, featuring Rosemeyer, Nuvolari, Von Brauchitsch, Caracciola, Varzi and Seaman, would make a wonderful drama, full of conflicting motivations, personalities, social backgrounds, and of course would be played up against a global catastrophe slowly enveloping everything.

And obviously, the rivalry between Valentino Rossi and Max Biaggi already made for a fantastic film, in the shape of the documentary Faster.

[RoutariEnjinu]

Originally posted by Rich


Which explains why there are no porno titles among the lists of classic movies.

Schindlers List is counted as a classic, and that had a shower scene. But yeah, I see your point.

http://www.lovethebeast.com.au/site/ The trailer for this looks interesting. It's on apple.com/trailers

[Risil]

Originally posted by RoutariEnjinu


Schindlers List is counted as a classic, and that had a shower scene. But yeah, I see your point.

Nothing gets my prostate gland a-pumping like a good old Holocaust movie.

[Buttoneer]

Originally posted by RoutariEnjinu


Schindlers List is counted as a classic,

While Schindlers Slit isn't.

Agree with SV and Risil. The movie should keep the race action to a bare minimum and concentrate on the people. The problem with the previous movies were that they were made by people who wanted to get the racing across. I think that's a mistake.

[klyster]

This is still in development/infancy stage, but it could turn out to be a great film.
I can't see it being a blockbuster though, but how many blockbusters turn into great movies anyway?

http://www.thebrucemclarenmovie.com/ (some cool pics in the workshop section)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0949568/

I hope this film eventually gets made...

PRESS RELEASE - 22nd January 2009 Work continues on development of the film based on the life of New Zealand motor racing legend Bruce McLaren. Our screenwriter is working closely with Bruce McLaren’s immediate family, the Auckland based Bruce McLaren Trust and former Bruce McLaren Racing Team personnel. We are committed to creating an exciting dramatic film befitting the grit, courage and intrepid spirit of Bruce McLaren and the team he built. Team BLM.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally posted by RoutariEnjinu


Schindlers List is counted as a classic, and that had a shower scene. But yeah, I see your point.

http://www.lovethebeast.com.au/site/ The trailer for this looks interesting. It's on apple.com/trailers

ERIC BANA... JAY LENO.......



JEREMY CLARKSON

[Rich]

Originally posted by Risil
The best sports films, as SeanValen eloquently put it, use sport as a prism for the human condition in strange-but-famililar situations. The only successful sports films I can think of that incorporated significant amounts of the actual 'sport' would be boxing films; Raging Bull, even Rocky.

Spot on. Although even those films were anathema for boxing buffs. Rocky is just ridiculous, two heavyweights swinging repeatedly and both catching each other square on the jaw time after time, yet neither of them goes down. However, how entertaining would the film have been if the fights had played out like most real heavyweight contests, very few clean shots, mostly just clinching and the winner grinding out a narrow jab-dominated points win over twelve rounds? Or, alternatively, a Mike Tyson-esque sixty second destruction job on the hapless foe.

Scorsese's bio of Jake La Motta is somewhat fanciful as well. For starters, La Motta never accused his brother Joey of sleeping with his wife. It was his best friend who was involved in that altercation, not his brother. That sort of "error" (it was done deliberately to simplify the story and keep down the number of characters) would be enough to have hardcore fans baying for blood. Certainly, if a "mistake" of that magnitude was made in a Senna movie (like Senna hitting Prost instead of Eddie Irvine), there'd be hell to pay among the F1 hardcore fans.

However, in both cases, the directors realised that they were making movies for mass consumption, not for a small hardcore group of boxing fans. So they sacrificed a degree of reality in favour of entertainment and dramatic effect in telling a human story.

[klyster]

Love the Beast! Cool, I'll have to see this

I always wanted an XA coupe as a teen. ( I know Eric's an XB)

[Risil]

Originally posted by Rich


Scorsese's bio of Jake La Motta is somewhat fanciful as well. For starters, La Motta never accused his brother Joey of sleeping with his wife. It was his best friend who was involved in that altercation, not his brother. That sort of "error" (it was done deliberately to simplify the story and keep down the number of characters) would be enough to have hardcore fans baying for blood. Certainly, if a "mistake" of that magnitude was made in a Senna movie (like Senna hitting Prost instead of Eddie Irvine), there'd be hell to pay among the F1 hardcore fans.

Don't know about Senna hitting Prost instead of Irvine -- LaMotta is beating up an old friend for sleeping with his wife on both occasions, whereas Senna punching Irvine was more of a 'let's keep the gobby kid in his place' rather than a 'I am threatened by Monsieur Prost's superior race pace'. Maybe a more accurate comparison would be Prost sleeping with Ron Dennis's wife, instead of Mme. Larrousse.;)