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Do Hamilton & McLaren deserve the penalty?


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Poll: Do Hamilton & McLaren deserve the penalty? (545 member(s) have cast votes)

  1. YES (373 votes [68.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 68.95%

  2. NO (168 votes [31.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.05%

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#1 bankoq

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 12:30

There are a lot of the threads about the incident so please just vote: yes or no, w/o any comments. I just want to get to know board's opinion.

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#2 bankoq

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:09

OK, to not let the poll die please post some short comments, but try not to change it to flame war, please! :)

#3 Oblivion

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:10

Hamilton deserves at least fourth place. Not disqualification.

#4 Dalek Caan

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:10

I do not like drivers lying to stewards. It sets a very dangerous precedent. I am glad Hamilton has been punished.

#5 BMW_F1

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:12

I really hope Lewis was briefed by his team on what to say and it wasn't just him responsible for the unsporting behavior.I don't want to him turn into the next Schumacher.

#6 Coral

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:16

No he does not deserve the penalty. It is downright unfair and more evidence of the FIA's witch-hunt against McLaren. This all happened because of Trulli's inability to keep his car on the track during a SC period. Lewis should be third and IMHO he should also leave McLaren as soon as possible...that team are poison for his career.

#7 DEVO

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:19

When has a penalty been given by the race stewards that make sense? First the 25 sec penalty for Truli, that was lame but this takes the cake. The best thing that they could have done is keep the race finishing order and hand out a fine for both parties.

#8 santori

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:20

Yes. Aside from any justifiable disatisfaction with the FIA, it seems that McLaren behaved dishonestly and were willing to rob another driver of his position.

#9 Szoelloe

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:21

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LH: I don’t have to let him past I should be able to take that position back, if he made a mistake.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He deserves the penalty. As for the team, if they stood by him on this one, they deserve it also. Was it his race engineer who accompanied him to the hearing?

#10 Nuvol

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:21

Yes.

During the hearing, held approximately one hour after the end of the race, the Stewards and the Race Director questioned Lewis Hamilton and his Team Manager David Ryan specifically about whether there had been an instruction given to Hamilton to allow Trulli to overtake. Both the driver and the Team Manager stated that no such instruction had been given. The Race Director specifically asked Hamilton whether he had consciously allowed Trulli to overtake. Hamilton insisted that he had not done so




Team: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now



whoops.
F1 history powered by Mclaren Mercedes..
There was no TO at Melbourne 98.. Nobody at woking read Ferrari 2007 car 300 pages brochure and IT WAS TRULLI WHO RETOOK POSITION.

Gotta love this team. :drunk:

#11 slideways

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:22

With the newest evidence proving both Lewis and McLaren blatently lied to the stewards, and the press, and well .. everyone, it's obvious they deserve the penalty.

My question is, was Lewis ordered to do this by McLaren or was it a spur of the moment thing?

Surely the team is on some ridiculously thin ice at the moment.

#12 RoutariEnjinu

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:29

For race fans, the guy down the pub outcome should have been:

3rd: Trulli
4th: Hamilton
McLaren: Big fine

In my opinion.

That way the memory of the race itself could still be enjoyed. This was between Trulli and Hamilton. The drivers behind were beat by both, and do not deserve to be benefited either way.


If the FIA hadn't pursued it, and new evidence wasn't bought to light, I think the WORST they should have done to Trulli was put him back in 4th. Trulli's 25-second post race penalty was also shit for race fans.

For a race fan, the situation has just gone from one excellent drive from a guy from the back being ripped off out the points, to another excellent drive from a guy from the back being ripped off out the points.

I can't see how the FIA has redeemed their stupid Trulli decision, over something as trivial as two guys being oblivious and terrified after an unusual situation.
McLaren got greedy/stupid and deserve a fine, the excellent drive shouldn't have been made in vain.
I mean how can you re-watch that race and appreciate Hamiltons race now? Just as before you couldn't re-watch it and enjoy Trulli's charge.

Stupid politics.

#13 engel

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:33

Yes the penalty was well deserved, if anything I feel he got off easy.

You may argue McLaren made him lie, but bottom line HE lied not McLaren. He gave false evidence to the stewards, he sat there and didn't mind a competitor getting punished for his/his teams error.

#14 Cenotaph

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:39

Basicly, i see it like this:

McLaren were so afraid of getting punished (ironic now), that they screwed up and told Lewis to let Trulli by. To make up for it they lied and so they deserve to be punished.

If they hadn't lie, Hamilton should be in the 3rd place indeed, so McLaren and Lewis deserve a big :down: They could really use those points. But by lying they provoked an undeserved penalty on Trulli, and that's a pretty serious offense.

#15 ensign14

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:43

Hamilton drove from 18th to a merited 3rd, gave it up because Toyota, McLaren and the FIA had no idea what to do and crossed the line 4th.

And because of mass confusion he gets disqualified.

It is beyond ludicrous.

#16 ensign14

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:44

Originally posted by slideways
With the newest evidence proving both Lewis and McLaren blatently lied to the stewards, and the press, and well .. everyone, it's obvious they deserve the penalty.

There is still no evidence that they blatantly lied. It is just an FIA assertion.

#17 Nuvol

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:44

It is beyond ludicrous to lie towards stewards :drunk:

#18 RoutariEnjinu

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:45

Originally posted by Cenotaph
McLaren were so afraid of getting punished (ironic now), that they screwed up and told Lewis to let Trulli by.


+10 points for correct usage of the word Irony. :up:

A rarity on the internet :rotfl:

#19 Mackey

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:47

I said yesterday that if Hamilton lied, he should be punished. Unsporting behaviours must be always punished.
All he needed was telling the truth.

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#20 F1Fanatic.co.uk

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:48

Unless we get a transcript of the appeal hearing from the FIA, we can't judge who is at fault.

But the whole thing should never have got this far. It would have been far easier for race control to tell them to swap positions on the track, or swap them around afterwards.

Penalising one driver and then excluding the other is sheer incompetence.

#21 metz

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:48

Why would they deliberately lie if the radio transcripts would prove otherwise?
Hamilton and Ryan should be fined for stupidity.

#22 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:49

Originally posted by Dalek Caan
I do not like drivers lying to stewards. It sets a very dangerous precedent. I am glad Hamilton has been punished.

Oops too late. it was already done some years ago.

#23 metz

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:54

Originally posted by ensign14

There is still no evidence that they blatantly lied. It is just an FIA assertion.

So this transcript is false?

Steward meeting
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During the hearing, held approximately one hour after the end of the race, the Stewards and the Race Director questioned Lewis Hamilton and his Team Manager David Ryan specifically about whether there had been an instruction given to Hamilton to allow Trulli to overtake. Both the driver and the Team Manager stated that no such instruction had been given. The Race Director specifically asked Hamilton whether he had consciously allowed Trulli to overtake. Hamilton insisted that he had not done so
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

radio transcript
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Team: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Or are you suggesting that Lewis ignored team instructions?
Sorry ensign14. They blatantly lied. :o

#24 taran

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:55

The Nazi's drove Mercedes Benz cars and were evil.
Hamilton drives a Mercedes Benz (powered) car, both professionally and privately, so he is also a Nazi and evil.


There, I have evoked Godwin's Law and this thread should now be closed......with points going to Trulli.

#25 Mika Mika

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:55

Originally posted by metz
Steward meeting
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During the hearing, held approximately one hour after the end of the race, the Stewards and the Race Director questioned Lewis Hamilton and his Team Manager David Ryan specifically about whether there had been an instruction given to Hamilton to allow Trulli to overtake. Both the driver and the Team Manager stated that no such instruction had been given. The Race Director specifically asked Hamilton whether he had consciously allowed Trulli to overtake. Hamilton insisted that he had not done so


Tell you what - id love to see the actual transcript form that stewards meeting. That way we would know for sure.

#26 stevewf1

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:55

A quote from here: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74152

The FIA said Hamilton and McLaren could face further sanctions for the breach of article 151C.


Sounds like for whatever reason, the FIA have placed targets on the backs of the McLaren team...

#27 engel

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:58

Originally posted by stevewf1
A quote from here: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74152



Sounds like for whatever reason, the FIA have placed targets on the backs of the McLaren team...


To be fair ... McLaren caused this whole circus act. Had they not lied, we wouldn't be in the middle of this mess. Having a race result changed twice is neither good sport nor good publicity. They should be held accountable for it, though I hope it's a fine rather than further race bans

#28 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:58

Originally posted by metz

So this transcript is false?

Steward meeting
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During the hearing, held approximately one hour after the end of the race, the Stewards and the Race Director questioned Lewis Hamilton and his Team Manager David Ryan specifically about whether there had been an instruction given to Hamilton to allow Trulli to overtake. Both the driver and the Team Manager stated that no such instruction had been given. The Race Director specifically asked Hamilton whether he had consciously allowed Trulli to overtake. Hamilton insisted that he had not done so
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

radio transcript
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Team: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Or are you suggesting that Lewis ignored team instructions?
Sorry ensign14. They blatantly lied. :o

Or the FIA did. That's Ensign's point. You just prefer the FIA's version of events perhaps?

#29 BMW_F1

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:58

Originally posted by Mika Mika


Tell you what - id love to see the actual transcript form that stewards meeting. That way we would know for sure.


common symptoms of denial there buddy.. ?

#30 Frans

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:59

well, he lied didn't he?

very Schumacherismic of him :down:

#31 slideways

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:59

Originally posted by Mika Mika


Tell you what - id love to see the actual transcript form that stewards meeting. That way we would know for sure.


No because if it was in text, you tin foil hat brigade would claim the FIA doctored it.

#32 Orin

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:59

The lie was moronic. The stewards deciding to believe McLaren rather than Trulli, ignoring mounds of evidence to the contrary, showed appalling incompetency. McLaren aren't really being punished for the lie, teams and drivers have often lied (presented their recollection of events) they're being punished for exposing what a hopelessly inept organisation the FIA is, one which is staffed by people who'd probably struggle to qualify as doormen in the real world.

#33 Cenotaph

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:59

There we go with the conspiracies, only took us one race. GG F1 :up: :drunk:

#34 Anomnader

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 13:59

Originally posted by BMW_F1


common symptoms of denial there buddy.. ?


so asking to see all the evidence is symptoms of denial


jesus wept

#35 Atreiu

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:02

McLaren/Hamilton can't crossed the road disctracted without the FIA having something for them.

#36 Dunder

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:03

Even as a McLaren fan. I voted yes.
Albeit that is with the caveat that the FIAs version of what was said is (expliciltly) correct.

If this is the case (as seems likely) then both Lewis and the team have been dumb in the extreme to have said one thing to the media (as is very apparent from radio comms.) and something very different to the race stewards.

I would, however like to see the transcript of that meeting,

#37 Phucaigh

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:07

Yes, lies were used which initially cheated Trulli of his points/podium finish, that kind of behaviour is not good in any sport.

Its a pity the whole thing happened to start with...

#38 metz

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:08

Originally posted by Buttoneer

Or the FIA did. That's Ensign's point. You just prefer the FIA's version of events perhaps?

Not at all.
I believe Whitmarsh's explanation.
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74152
Seems to me that the incompetent stewards made an assumpion regarding Trulli's pass and Lewis and Ryan went along with it.

#39 pacwest

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:08

I'm starting to lose faith in my ability to enjoy a race.



I should not have to log on to the internet a day after the podium to see who really won. These penalties in the + - are farcical to me. Just race please.

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#40 Driver

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:10

The stewards have taken a situation that really shouldn't have been much of an issue and turned it into a major problem.

How the issue SHOULD have been handled is that the stewards should have determined, from all possible evidence, what the finishing order should have been. This determination should have nothing to do with what drivers tell them...it should be based on what happened on track. So, the questions the stewards should be able to answer are:

1) Did Trulli go off track, yielding the position to Hamilton? Yes.
2) Did Hamilton slow (for whatever reason, it doesn't matter why) sufficiently for Trulli to rightfully take the position? {I'm still a little unsure what the answer on this is, but I suspect the answer is Yes.}

If so, the correct finishing positions are P3 for Trulli and P4 for Hamilton. No penalties. They never should have given Trulli a penalty, regardless of anything Hamilton could say, and they should never have given Hamilton a penalty for giving evidence that they felt was misleading. Any judical person will tell you that witnesses are the poorest form of evidence anyway... Doesn't F1 have the ability to know what's going on on every part of their tracks? I mean, even NASCAR knows exactly where cars are on track at the instant a full course caution comes out...can't F1 (the pinnacle of technology in motorsport) do the same and track where the cars are?

Also, in NASCAR, the solution would be to put the cars back in their correct finishing position if something odd happens like this...that's what should have been done here too. The initial determination of the stewards was that the answer to #1 was YES and the answer to #2 was NO...in which case they just should have adjusted the finishing positions and not penalized Trulli. The fact that they dished out an over-the-top penalty meant that when they realized they had done something wrong, they had to punish someone else to cover their tracks. Next time, don't punish anyone...just get it right the first time.

The stewards have quite successfully made a mountain out of a molehill...

#41 engel

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:15

Originally posted by metz

Not at all.
I believe Whitmarsh's explanation.
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74152
Seems to me that the incompetent stewards made an assumpion regarding Trulli's pass and Lewis and Ryan went along with it.


You choose to believe a guy that is lying in the very interview you link?????

Here's the lie:

"Once that instruction was given to Lewis, he did not agree. He said: ‘Look, the guy was off the circuit, I didn't need to do this.' A discussion was occurring and before that discussion was finished, Trulli had re-passed.If we look at the speed traces at that time, and compare it to other periods behind the safety car, then Lewis did not do anything abnormal. And I think it is also quite clear that Trulli should not have re-passed.

Radio Transcript:

Team: OK Lewis, you should need to make sure your delta is positive over the safety car line. After
the safety car line the delta doesn’t matter but no overtaking. No overtaking.
Lewis Hamilton: The Toyota went off in a line at the second corner, ..., is this OK?
Team: Understood, Lewis. We’ll confirm and get back to you.
LW: He was off the track. He went wide.
Team: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.
LW: OK.
LW: He’s slowed right down in front of me.
Team: OK, Lewis. Stay ahead for the time being. Stay ahead. We will get back to you. We are
talking to Charlie.
LW: I let him past already.
Team: OK, Lewis. That’s fine. That’s fine. Hold position. Hold position.
LW: Tell Charlie I already overtook him. I just let him past.
Team: I understand Lewis. We are checking. Now can we go to yellow G 5, yellow Golf 5.
LH: I don’t have to let him past I should be able to take that position back, if he made a mistake.

so as you can see a) he did let Trulli past (while you link Whitmarsh saying "Once that instruction was given to Lewis, he did not agree" and b) Lewis didn't object till AFTER he let Trulli past. c) He didn't object to the instruction given to let Tulli past as Whitmarsh claims

#42 ensign14

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:22

:confused:

Whitmarsh says that Hamilton let Trulli past when they were still debating it.

Transcript says Hamilton let Trulli past when they were still debating it.

Doesn't say with whom they were debating it, but in both cases it was with Whiting, it seems.

#43 metz

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:23

So, engel. Your issue is with the sequence of LH protest/objection. Was it before or after JT had passed?
I don't think it makes much difference.
What is confirmed is that the team was trying to get a decision and could not.

#44 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:26

Originally posted by ensign14
:confused:

Whitmarsh says that Hamilton let Trulli past when they were still debating it.

He said Trulli had re-passed which is not the same thing, as you well know.

I agree that ultimately we're looking at a simple 'McLaren lied'/'no we didn't scenario' and I also agree that the FIA cannot be trusted when it comes to McLaren, but nevertheless Whitmarsh does himself no good with this sort of language.

He does not appear to be a man who can be trusted and I think the man on the Clapham omnibus might agree.

#45 Gareth

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:27

Originally posted by ensign14
:confused:

Whitmarsh says that Hamilton let Trulli past when they were still debating it.

Transcript says Hamilton let Trulli past when they were still debating it.

Doesn't say with whom they were debating it, but in both cases it was with Whiting, it seems.

Whitmarsh's statement makes it seem like they were yet to make a decision on whether to let Trulli by or not at the time that he went through. The reality was that they had decided to let Trulli through, and had let him through, but were then debating whether that was correct or not.

Sure there's no outright lie in his statement but you're not going to claim it is not massively misleading are you?

#46 wingwalker

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:31

Exactly: When Trulli overtook Lewis the team was still debating the issue.. with Charlie, as they told Lewis to give the position back earlier on, which he did. Lewis is then told to "stay in front" but says he already let Trulli past him. It might be technically correct, what Whitmarsh says is a load of crap, and he sure knows it.

#47 barteks

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:31

Of course they deserve the penalty. DSQ is not too severe penalty in a case when a driver and his team lied to the stewards.

#48 engel

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:31

It's not semantics, Whitmarsh makes it sound like Trulli overtook Lewis on his own accord while Lewis was protesting the call. Not True. Lewis was told to let Trulli pass, he did so, THEN protested the call. If Lewis was protesting the proper sequence of events would be

Lewis let the Toyota though
NO he went off track
OK hold while we confirm with race control.

NOT

Lewis let the Toyota through
OK
Lewis let the Toyota though
I did
OK that's fine
But .. I shouldn't NEED to let him through.

Also, second part of that statement is a lie ... Whitmarsh says "If we look at the speed traces at that time, and compare it to other periods behind the safety car, then Lewis did not do anything abnormal" making it appear that Trulli went by without Lewis slowing down, in car footage proves he is lying -> http://news.bbc.co.u...one/7979304.stm

#49 stevewf1

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:33

Originally posted by pacwest
I'm starting to lose faith in my ability to enjoy a race.

I should not have to log on to the internet a day after the podium to see who really won. These penalties in the + - are farcical to me. Just race please.


With the heavy rain weather forecasts for this weekend's "late-start" Malaysian GP, we may not know the the final results of this one for weeks... :

#50 Andy35

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 14:34

Agree with Gareth on this one, no debating took place until after Trulli was passed. I get the impression that when they asked Hamilton to stay ahead they were hoping he had not done what they had just told him to, but he had in fact taken the action already. Then the debate started on whether that was the right action.

Regards

Andy