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Lewis Hamilton disqualification timeline of events (merged)


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#1 Guizotia

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 18:20

Here is a timeline of events relating to Lewis Hamilton's disqualification from the 2009 Australian Grand Prix. I'm trying to get to the bottom of this in my head.

29 March 2009 during Australian Grand Prix - Under the safety car, Trulli goes off the track and Lewis passes. Lewis gives back the place to Trulli.

Originally posted by scottb32
When you listen to the recording it becomes apparent that LH and the team (is that Ryan?) are NOT working in unison. Here is my interpreation of what is being said and what happens on the track. This is pure speculation - we need an in-car camera to verify.

0:00 Team: OK Lewis, you should need to make sure your delta is positive over the safety car line. After the safety car line the delta doesn't matter but no overtaking. No overtaking.
TRULLI GOES OFF TRACK, HAMILTON PASSES
0:16 Lewis Hamilton: The Toyota went off in a line at the second corner, ..., is this OK?
0:20 Team: Understood, Lewis. We'll confirm and get back to you.
0:24 LH: He was off the track. He went wide.
0:30 Team: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.
0:40 LH: OK.
HAMILTON HAS SIGNIFICANT LEAD – STARTS TO SLOW – (85 Kmh according to Trulli) – TRULLI PASSES HAMILTON -TRULLI THEN STARTS TO SLOW, YET REMAINS IN FRONT
1:04 LH: He's slowed right down in front of me.
1:06 Team: OK, Lewis. Stay ahead for the time being. Stay ahead. We will get back to you. We are talking to Charlie.
1:11 LH: I let him past already.

To me it appears the team thought Lewis did NOT allow Trulli to pass (see 1:06). Hence the team thought Lewis never slowed down for him. This whole thing stinks of confusion - even Trulli starts to slow down. Should Lewis have passed him back?

So, did Lewis sit down with the team and concoct a plan to deceive the FIA, thinking they would never listen to the radio transmission, or any post-race interview? Or, was this a case of the team mis-informing the driver, while themselves trying to get an answer from Whiting, and Lewis being confused and giving an answer that best served his interest at the FIA hearing?

For me, I look to Occam's Razor.


29 March 2009 immediately after the Grand Prix - Lewis gives an interview to the BBC where he states "I guess you heard on the radio what was going on" in relation the race in general.
http://news.bbc.co.u...one/7970770.stm

29 March 2009 immediately after the Grand Prix - Lewis gives another interview where he states that the team told him to pass.
http://formula-one.s...et-trulli-past/

29 March 2009 immediately after the Grand Prix - Martin Whitmarsh gives an interview to the BBC where describes the incident under the safety car.

From Autosport (http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74043)
"At the end, under the safety car, Trulli fell off onto the grass and Lewis had no choice but to go past him, he was not on the racing circuit," said Whitmarsh.
"Trulli then re-took the place under the safety car, which ordinarily you wouldn't do so I know that the FIA are looking at it at the moment and doubtless we'll have a ruling in due course.
"That's our position at the moment and we will see what happens in the coming hours."


29 March 2009 stewards investigation - four days later the FIA asserts that the following happened during this hearing:

From the full decision of the stewards released on 2 April:
During the hearing, held approximately one hour after the end of the race, the Stewards and the Race Director questioned Lewis Hamilton and his Team Manager David Ryan specifically about whether there had been an instruction given to Hamilton to allow Trulli to overtake. Both the driver and the Team Manager stated that no such instruction had been given. The Race Director specifically asked Hamilton whether he had consciously allowed Trulli to overtake. Hamilton insisted that he had not done so.



29 March 2009 after the stewards investigation - in the McLaren press release, Norbert Haug states openly that Lewis let Trulli past.
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74054

2 April 2009 11:15 Malaysian time - FIA reconvenes stewards investigation. Lewis Hamilton leaves the track immediately after finishing talking to the stewards.
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74138

2 April 2009 15:00 Malaysian time - FIA disqualifies Lewis Hamilton from the Australia Grand Prix.
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74146

2 April 2009 18:00 Malaysian time - McLaren press release say they wont appeal, and the issue is around their failure to reveal radio communications that they though the FIA were already aware of
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74150

2 April 2009 18:30 Malaysian time - Martin Whitmarsh says "we did not lie, we just failed to provide a full account of the radio conversation.
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74152

2 April 2009 18:30 Malaysian time - a Q&A with Martin Whitmarsh again states he believes the issue is around not being "explicit enough" with details of a radio conversation, although he doesnt think it would have affected anything if they had been more explicit.
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74153

2 April 2009 20:00 Malaysian time - FIA publishes the full decision by the stewards
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74158

3 April 2009 around midday Malaysian time - Autosport reports that David Ryan is to 'leave' McLaren

3 April 2009 14:40 Malaysian time - Martin Whitmarsh confirms that David Ryan is suspended

Martin Whitmarsh:
However, his role in the events of last Sunday, particularly his dealings with the FIA stewards, has caused serious repercussions for the team, for which we apologise. Therefore, I suspended him this morning and he has accepted this.


3 April 2009 16:00 Malaysian time - Martin Whitmarsh asserts he was in the dark during this episode.

Martin Whitmarsh (http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74189)
Whitmarsh explained that Ryan and Hamilton's decision not to tell the stewards about the radio conversation between team and driver was taken unilaterally, without consultation with senior management.

"I think anyone who knows Davey will know that he did not set out with any deliberate intention to mislead the stewards," said Whitmarsh.

"He went to that meeting with Lewis I am sure with the intention of being very clear and straightforward, but I think during the course of that meeting, as we have explored it more with him over the past 24 hours, it has become clear that he was not as full and comprehensive as he could have been."

When asked if he felt Hamilton had also been truthful in the meeting, Whitmarsh said: "No. I think that Lewis was not entirely truthful, but we have spoken to Davey. He was the senior member of the team and they went into the situation together.

"I think they were trying to deal with the situation and they got it wrong – but Davey as the senior member of the team was responsible for what happened and therefore I took the decision this morning."

Whitmarsh said a decision about Ryan's future would be made when the team returned from the Malaysian GP.

"Davey has been sent home, and we need to during the course of this weekend we need to understand exactly what happened and make the decision about Davey's future."

Whitmarsh also suggested further action could be taken, and did not rule out resigning himself over the matter.


James Allen adds more detail (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/)
Speaking to a packed media centre, Whitmarsh said that this matter did not go any higher in the McLaren organisation and that he was not consulted before Ryan and Hamilton went to the stewards,
“We knew what had happened and there was a belief that a true and honest account of that would be given.

“Lewis got out of the car and gave a truthful account of what happened (to reporters). When they got to the stewards, Davey, who had been part of what happened at Spa (Hamilton’s penalty for passing Raikkonen) was highly sensitive and I think that in the heat of the moment his judgement was not to give a truthful account and I think Lewis was then led by that.”



3 April 2009 17:45 Malaysian time - Lewis Hamilton asserts he was told to lie, and made a 'huge mistake':

Lewis Hamilton (http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74202)
"In Melbourne, I had a great race. As soon as I got out the car I had the television interviews at the back of the garage, and straight away I gave them a good account of what happening during the race," Hamilton told a news conference.

"Straight after that we were requested by the stewards, and while waiting for the stewards I was instructed and misled by my team manager to withhold information, and that is what I did.

"I sincerely apologise to the stewards for wasting their time and for making them look silly. I am very, very sorry for the situation: for my team, for Dave because he has been a good member of the team for many years, and whilst I don't think it was his intention or...he is a good guy.

"I went into the meeting, I had no intention of...I just wanted to tell the story and say what happened. I was misled and that is the way it went.

"I would like to say a big sorry to all my fans who have believed in me, who have supported me for years, who I showed who I am for the past three years, and it is who I am. I am not a liar. I am not a dishonest person. I am a team player.

"Every time I have been informed to do something I have done it. This time I realise it was a huge mistake and I am learning from it. It has taken a huge toll on me.

"I apologise to you guys, I didn't speak to you yesterday, but there was a lot of take in and a lot to deal with. I am here to apologise to everyone and I assure you it won't happen again."


Highlights from the full press conference (http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74203)
Q. You say you were misled. Can I ask, did you talk to Dave Ryan before you went into the stewards and say, that doesn't stack up with what I have just said or what I believe? And how difficult was it for you to go in knowing that what you were saying was misleading?

LH: The thing is we were rushed. I was still in my suit, and we went straight up. Actually when I came up from the garage, we went straight up the pitlane and we went straight there, and while we were waiting for Jarno to come out, I was instructed.

I honestly acted as a team member. If the team have asked me to do something I have generally done it. I didn't have time to think about it, to think about what I was going to do. I went in and I did it, and I felt awkward. I felt very uncomfortable. I think the stewards could see that, and I guess that is why I am in this position.

To refer to the guy before's question - I've never felt so bad. Try and put yourself in my position and understand that, like I said, I am not a liar. I have not gone through my life being a liar or dishonest. And so for people to say I am dishonest and for the world to think that....what can I say?

Q. You have said it was a matter between you and Dave Ryan. Was anyone else at McLaren involved in the planning for the decision, or was it only you two?

LH: No. It was just me and Dave.

Q. Is this the worst thing you've ever had to do. And do you fear FIA retribution for the team, which a lot of people have speculated on? The FIA has said it is possible there could be repercussions

LH: For me, the situation is definitely the worst thing I've experienced in my life. That is why I am here. It is right for me as a human being and as a man to stand in front of you all and tell you exactly what went on and put up my hands. I cannot tell you how sorry I am. I'm sorry to my team and my family for the embarrassment. It is a very, very embarrassing situation.

I am sure the FIA will act accordingly and in the right way. I don't know what else is going to happen in the future. For me now, I have to focus on the race and try to move forward from this, learn from it and grow.


3 April 2009 16:00 GMT - The FIA appears to accept Lewis' account of what happened, and hints at further sanctions for the McLaren organisation.
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74214

"We recognise Lewis's efforts to set the record straight today," said an FIA spokesman. "It would appear that he was put in an impossible position.

"We are now awaiting reports from the FIA observer and stewards before consideration can be given to further investigation of the team's conduct.

"We cannot rule out the matter being referred to the World Council at this stage."



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#2 Keith68

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 18:26

Your obviously a fair weather McLaren fan then, I bet you also support Manchester United as well

#3 Guizotia

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 18:29

Originally posted by Keith68
Your obviously a fair weather McLaren fan then, I bet you also support Manchester United as well


That's a bit harsh. If Lewis or the team openly did something wrong I have a right to be annoyed at that. I haven't judged them yet, which says a lot for my openmindedness I think.

#4 Guizotia

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 19:19

Does anyone know of any interview between the McLaren Australian Grand Prix press release and today, where Lewis states that he was told to let Trulli pas??

#5 ashnathan

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 19:56

What is it with new members lately and openly stating that "if this happens i will not support team 'x', and if what your saying is true, then just pack up and go support a different team already cos you obviously aren't a true mclaren fan.

And i think all of this is a grossly exaggerated misunderstanding to make mclaren look bad, and to add to that i do think Ron Dennis set maxxx up and mosely said over the winter he knows who it was, it has to be the case for mclaren to be pursued with everything they do.

#6 Nadsat

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 20:06

What was reported from the Spanish press the day of the race at the evening news is that Hamilton or McLaren complained at the end of the race that Trulli overtook Hamilton under yellow flags. Then, according to that, the stewards decided to open an investigation to know what had really happened. After hearing Hamilton and Trulli, the stewards decided to punish Trulli.

I don't know if the Spanish info was correct or not, but it sounded with a logic: if a team/driver complains about some race incident, the stewards are going to investigate it.

According to that: if some driver complains about another driver overtaking him under yellow flags and later you find out that the complaining driver just lied in order to get a benefit, the punishment must really hard for the complaining driver...

Probably FIA got angry because it was (possibly, not confirmed at the moment) McLaren which triggered an investigation and misled the stewards when McLaren knew positively what had really happened.

But again: this is according to the Spanish press on Sunday night.

#7 Guizotia

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 20:10

Originally posted by kids like ash
What is it with new members lately and openly stating that "if this happens i will not support team 'x',


I don't know, what is it with those new members?


Originally posted by kids like ash
and if what your saying is true, then just pack up and go support a different team already cos you obviously aren't a true mclaren fan.


Not sure what is being referred to here, I laid out what I think are the two most likely explanations.

Originally posted by kids like ash
And i think all of this is a grossly exaggerated misunderstanding to make mclaren look bad


That would be option 2. We live in hope!

#8 RoutariEnjinu

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 20:16

Good summary Guizotia, ignore Keith68's childish incapacity to understand how you can be a fan of something, and still think critically about it. That's the difference between a fan, and a fanboy. Unless you think your team is infallible, or that you have a duty to be as irrational on something as they are? :confused:

#9 PassWind

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 20:40

Originally posted by RoutariEnjinu
Good summary Guizotia, ignore Keith68's childish incapacity to understand how you can be a fan of something, and still think critically about it. That's the difference between a fan, and a fanboy. Unless you think your team is infallible, or that you have a duty to be as irrational on something as they are? :confused:


Pretty well summed up :up:

#10 Keith68

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 20:53

Sorry have to disagree. If you REALLY support a team, then you support them through thick and thin, good times and bad.

Guizottia finished his opening post by saying his support for McLaren was up for review. Not that he was thinking critically about it, but that it was up for review.

Obviously shows he is no real supporter of McLaren then. A supporter of F1 maybe, but not of McLaren. Nothing wrong with that, perfectly free to choose your own path. Stupid to pretend to be what your not though.

Fan boy..at my age? Interesting one that.

#11 engel

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 20:59

Hmm no actually ^^^ Support is implied so long as whatever you support doesn't cease to be worthy of said support. If for instance you support Greenpeace and you suddenly find out they are killing whales on the side and cutting down the rainforests you are in no way obligated to continue supporting them. Same applies to sportsmen/women/teams ... if they cease being sportsman like to your standards you don't owe anybody your support.... Say your favorite sprinter gets caught taking steroids, are you a bad fan if you decide dude was cheating and no longer worth your support?

Anyways ... semi O/T ... apologies. The timeline seems correct, you are however discounting option C) that maybe parts of the team felt there was a championship point in it for them and "omitted" the truth, instead of heat of the moment.

#12 jb_128

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 21:05

Thanks for the summary. I was having trouble making sense of Whitmarsh's comments because autosport has wrong times on their articles.

#13 Keith68

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 21:11

Originally posted by engel
Hmm no actually ^^^ Support is implied so long as whatever you support doesn't cease to be worthy of said support. If for instance you support Greenpeace and you suddenly find out they are killing whales on the side and cutting down the rainforests you are in no way obligated to continue supporting them. Same applies to sportsmen/women/teams ... if they cease being sportsman like to your standards you don't owe anybody your support.... Say your favorite sprinter gets caught taking steroids, are you a bad fan if you decide dude was cheating and no longer worth your support?

Anyways ... semi O/T ... apologies. The timeline seems correct, you are however discounting option C) that maybe parts of the team felt there was a championship point in it for them and "omitted" the truth, instead of heat of the moment.




What you have described is an F1 fan, not a McLaren supporter. Like I say nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is.

#14 MWM

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 21:14

Originally posted by RoutariEnjinu
Good summary Guizotia, ignore Keith68's childish incapacity to understand how you can be a fan of something, and still think critically about it. That's the difference between a fan, and a fanboy. Unless you think your team is infallible, or that you have a duty to be as irrational on something as they are? :confused:

Good point well made.

I think if I were both a McLaren fan and a fan of sporting fairness I would currently be pondering how to reconcile those two diametrically opposed positions. It appears McLaren's continual propensity for being economical with the truth has no sign of waning, and I think that is sad.

Bruce McLaren would be turning in his grave.

And I do pity Keith68's bizarre misunderstanding of what constitutes a "fan" and a "fanboy".

It is perfectly reasonable to remove your support from a sporting body that has stopped being sporting and has started being downright unsporting. And if triggering an inquiry that hopes to capitalise on your own lying is not unsporting, I don't know what is.

#15 Keith68

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 21:21

Drivers come and go, MD's come and go, CEO's come and go. But a racing team exists, survives and develops through it all.

So do you support the team? Or do you support the driver, or the MD, or the CEO? Or even the latest fad?

Nuff said from me I think. If you don't get it you never will.

And for the record I'm not a rabid MaClaren fan boy, my first team is, and always has been Williams. Ever since our Noige was around.

#16 Montoya1

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 21:59

As long ago as that? Wow, really impressive to this Alan Jones fan :)

It is extremely arrogant to dismiss everyone else because 'we don't get it'. We get it, but we don't agree. If the things that made you a fan in the first place changes, it does not make you a flake, somebody to be looked down upon in your eyes, if you stop being a fan.

#17 scottb32

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 22:34

How about a timeline of the actual event?

When you listen to the recording it becomes apparent that LH and the team (is that Ryan?) are NOT working in unison. Here is my interpreation of what is being said and what happens on the track. This is pure speculation - we need an in-car camera to verify.

0:00 Team: OK Lewis, you should need to make sure your delta is positive over the safety car line. After the safety car line the delta doesn't matter but no overtaking. No overtaking.
TRULLI GOES OFF TRACK, HAMILTON PASSES
0:16 Lewis Hamilton: The Toyota went off in a line at the second corner, ..., is this OK?
0:20 Team: Understood, Lewis. We'll confirm and get back to you.
0:24 LH: He was off the track. He went wide.
0:30 Team: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.
0:40 LH: OK.
HAMILTON HAS SIGNIFICANT LEAD – STARTS TO SLOW – (85 Kmh according to Trulli) – TRULLI PASSES HAMILTON -TRULLI THEN STARTS TO SLOW, YET REMAINS IN FRONT
1:04 LH: He's slowed right down in front of me.
1:06 Team: OK, Lewis. Stay ahead for the time being. Stay ahead. We will get back to you. We are talking to Charlie.
1:11 LH: I let him past already.

To me it appears the team thought Lewis did NOT allow Trulli to pass (see 1:06). Hence the team thought Lewis never slowed down for him. This whole thing stinks of confusion - even Trulli starts to slow down. Should Lewis have passed him back?

So, did Lewis sit down with the team and concoct a plan to deceive the FIA, thinking they would never listen to the radio transmission, or any post-race interview? Or, was this a case of the team mis-informing the driver, while themselves trying to get an answer from Whiting, and Lewis being confused and giving an answer that best served his interest at the FIA hearing?

For me, I look to Occam's Razor.

#18 inaki

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 04:56

Originally posted by Guizotia
1. Lewis lied on the spur of the moment, Team Manager agreed with what Lewis said as Lewis would know, being the one plugged into one end of the radio. If he did lie it seems that he may have kept the team in general in the dark, but why would David Ryan do this too?

If no. 1 is true I would not mind if Lewis admitted to it and apologised. We all make mistakes.


Take into account that Lewis changed his version of facts in different moments (press interviews and FIA hearing), why?

For me, it is clear that when McLaren was telling him to let Trulli pass he got angry. Remember this part of the transcription:

LH: I don't have to let him past I should be able to take that position back, if he made a mistake.

and later:

LH: Any news from Charlie whether I can take it back or not.

He noticed that he did nothing illegal on the track better and before his team.

So why did Lewis told the stewards that he was not instructed by his team to let Trulli by? Why did he give such a stupid excuse that he was slow and off the line because he was reading safety car instructions in his driving wheel when he was not? Why he changed the version he gave to media after the race acknowledging that the team told him to let Jarno pass?

The most logical conclusion for me is that once in the FIA hearing he gave the false version because he was convinced that Toyota would be punished and he was going to get a podium.

There are 2 possibilities:
- He decided to lie on her own (the one I think most plausible)
- He was instructed and pressured by the team to do so.

In both cases he is the main responsible and he is guilty.

And i think that either him (most plausible) or the members of his team (less possible) are not very intelligent because at the end of the day FIA could use a big arsenal of evidence:

- Radio transcriptions
- Telemetry
- etc

to catch a liar.

And no, his behaviour is not only a mistake, deserves a punishment and can not be solved just by an apology, it is a cold trick, dirty and machiavellic and with the clear consequence of hurting Trulli and Toyota (who, by the way, were also not guilty on the track)

#19 mclarensmps

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 05:22

Originally posted by Keith68
Sorry have to disagree. If you REALLY support a team, then you support them through thick and thin, good times and bad.

Guizottia finished his opening post by saying his support for McLaren was up for review. Not that he was thinking critically about it, but that it was up for review.

Obviously shows he is no real supporter of McLaren then. A supporter of F1 maybe, but not of McLaren. Nothing wrong with that, perfectly free to choose your own path. Stupid to pretend to be what your not though.

Fan boy..at my age? Interesting one that.


You are wrong. A team can do something that will have it's fans turn away from it permanently (though I don't believe this is one of those things).

I used to be a fan of Alonso until what he did to McLaren in his sole year employed there.

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#20 chrcoluk

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 05:47

have the FIA gave a reason why they investigated this after toyota withdrew appeal and when there was a precedent set where the FIA didnt overule stewards.

have the FIA explained why the race director tells teams one thing and then punishes them later?

have the FIA explained why the stewards didnt use the onboard cameras, radio recordings etc. on the original hearing.

have the FIA explained why the stewards and the race director ignored requests from both toyota and mclaren how to handle the situation.

#21 Guizotia

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:09

Added the news about David Ryan leaving McLaren to the timeline.

This is helping to restore my faith in the team and Lewis, still waiting to see what Martin Whitmarsh says later today. Hopefully it will be along the lines of 'I was not aware yesterday as to what was said in the stewards investigation etc etc' i.e. backtrack a bit and some honesty.

David Ryan initiating the lie makes a lot more sense of Lewis' comments before (and after? still hunting for a post-stewards meeting interview where he says team told him to let trulli pass) the stewards meeting.

Lewis will have done what he's told and then been stuck with it.

#22 Ricardo F1

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:14

None of this actually excuses the fact that the whole incident is the fault of the STEWARDS and the inability for the FIA to empower Charlie Whiting to make decisions.

#23 Guizotia

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:18

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
None of this actually excuses the fact that the whole incident is the fault of the STEWARDS and the inability for the FIA to empower Charlie Whiting to make decisions.


OF course, I haven't watched Nascar for a couple of years but I'm sure in Nascar they'd just say, while still under the safety car, 'ok you swap with you'. Formula one needs better technology, like they have in Nascar that allows them to know the exact position and speed of cars on the track at any time. But with the debts FOM have, this doesnt look like it will every happen.

#24 Keith68

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:21

Originally posted by Montoya1
As long ago as that? Wow, really impressive to this Alan Jones fan :)

It is extremely arrogant to dismiss everyone else because 'we don't get it'. We get it, but we don't agree. If the things that made you a fan in the first place changes, it does not make you a flake, somebody to be looked down upon in your eyes, if you stop being a fan.


Where did I ever say once I looked down upon him? Thats right. Never. Get your facts right.

#25 Gareth

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:57

It's maybe worth adding in to the timeline, after the GP but before the stewards' hearing, Whitmarsh giving this interview to the bbc: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74043

#26 Guizotia

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:59

Originally posted by Gareth
It's maybe worth adding in to the timeline, after the GP but before the stewards' hearing, Whitmarsh giving this interview to the bbc: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74043


Thanks will do.

#27 Guizotia

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 08:05

Does anyone know when the press conference is that Martin Whitmarsh will be in?

EDIT: Scrap that, apparently its right now!

#28 Guizotia

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 08:07

From James Allen's blog:
I’m supposed to be going to a dinner tonight, hosted by Mercedes boss Norbert Haug and McLaren’s Martin Whitmarsh for seven or eight UK journalists, including the Mail, Times etc. Could be quite a tense evening….



#29 andy-i

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 08:54

Originally posted by Keith68
Your obviously a fair weather McLaren fan then, I bet you also support Manchester United as well


You dont appear to understand the true nature of a Fan, do you support any football team (and I mean get off your backside and go to watch matches at the ground)

Most of the true Man Utd fans I know (i'm not one by the way) didn't like Glazier taking over but still support the team. Some of them felt so strongly that they formed their own team, FC Utd. Do you think that makes them fair weather fans?

You have a very odd idea of what a fan is :confused:

#30 RoutariEnjinu

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 09:07

Keith, you can support something but still disagree with something they've done, and dicuss it and analyze it.

Just like you can support your family, or a certain family member through something, yet still disagree with how they've done something. It's strange you find this such an alien concept.

The OP isn't a fair weather fan because he's questioning something.

Surely you become a fan of a team because that team has done something to impress you in some way.
You on the other hand seem to be treating it as a religion, or an inherited football team? Where the choice is an accident of birth and upbringing, and that you now must not question anything they do, and never think critically about it. Especially in the case of religion :p

And to question they way they've handled something, is far removed from criticising a team you once liked, because they aren't winning anymore.

#31 lv4

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 09:27

Following is pure evidence that Lewis and McLaren had the best of intentions and what the FIA (calling Lewis in to give further explainations) did is a complete farce.

Please read carefully the following conclusions that arise from the Team Radio conversation.

LEWIS - TEAM RADIO CONVERSATION
0:00 - 0:10 Team : OK Lewis, you should need to make sure your delta is positive over the safety car line. After the safety car line the delta doesn’t matter but no overtaking. No overtaking.
The team instructs its driver for standard SC procedures.

0:14 - 0:16 Lewis : The Toyota went off in a line in the second to last corner.
Here Lewis is giving insight of what has just happened.

0:16 - 0:17 Lewis : I overtook him, is that Ok?
Here Lewis seeks approval for overtaking the Toyota.No harm done at that moment.

0:18 - 0:21 Team : Understood, Lewis. We’ll confirm and get back to you.
Here the team is clearly trying to confirm the matter before taking any action!

0:23 - 0:26 Lewis " He was off the track.He.. He... He went wide.
Again Lewis gives more insight on the matter, but please notice the stattering in his voice.
After a quick googling I found this site http://psychcentral....g-myth-vs-fact/.
A stuttering specialist states the following “If stress caused stuttering, we’d all be stutterers,” says Montgomery. Stuttering can, however, be made worse by anxiety or stress. Please draw your own conclusions.

0:29 - 0:32 Team : Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.
Here the team tells Lewis to hand back the position to the Toyota. At that point we need insight on the Team to Race Control conversation. If the team did not get any response from Race Control then its actions are totally justifiable since it ensures that Hamilton has not passed under a Safety Car period.

0:39 - 0:40 Lewis : OK.
Lewis aknowledges and slows down for the Toyota to get back its position! Evidence that Lewis does not want any troubles. Lewis has that experience from last year and I am pretty sure that he has learned how not to get involved into such grey areas.

1:02 - 1:03 Lewis : He slowed down in front of me.
At that moment it is obvious that the Toyota is now ahead of Lewis. Here Lewis again gives more insight on the actions of the Toyota. Now as a racing driver Lewis must be thinking that Toyota tries to give back the place by slowing down and let him go past. Here is the most important evidence that Lewis does not want to take the position back without first consulting the pit wall! Had he wanted to take the place back with the Toyota slowing in front of him then he could have done so!

1:04 - 1:09 Team : OK, Lewis. Stay ahead for the time being. Stay ahead. We will get back to you. We are talking to Charlie (Whiting, the race director).
Another very important evidence. The Team believes Lewis to be ahead of the Toyota which he is not, and clearly cancels the previous order given at 0:29 seconds.

1:10 - 1:11 Lewis : I let him past already.
Here more insight from Lewis. This statement in no means proves that Lewis consciously allowed Truli to pass him! The race was under the SC period and his comment "I've let him past already" means nothing! It is not up to Lewis to decide who passes him or not when he is in a SC line. The rules clearly state no overtaking is allowed behind a SC line. The only way for us to prove whether Truli is guilty of overtaking during a SC period, is to listen to the Toyota - Race Control converstation.

1:11 - 1:15 Team : OK, Lewis. That’s fine. That’s fine. Hold position. Hold position.
The team clearly orders its driver to stay put!

1:17 - 1:20 Lewis : Tell Charlie I already overtook him. I just let him past. So..
This is a classic case where a driver with bad experience(see Belgium 2008) tries to defend his actions. Please consider that five seconds before speaking he has been informed by the team to hold his position. Lewis took this as a sign of himself doing something wrong and tries to make amends for it.

1:20 - 1:26 Team : I understand Lewis. We are checking. Now can we go to yellow G 5, yellow Golf 5.
The Team informs its driver that they are checking, plus they give Lewis some more procedural work to do!

1:32 - 1:36 Lewis : I don’t have to let him past I should be able to take that position back, if he made a mistake.
Lewis only informs the team that he did nothing wrong since the toyota run wide! Again the fact that he says "I don't have to let him past..." proves nothing! It is another sign of a driver with bad experience being on the lookout.

1:36 - 1:45 Team : Yes, we understand Lewis. Let’s just do it by the book. We are asking Charlie now. You are in P4. If you hold this position. Just keep it together.
The Team informs its driver that they understand what has happened , and that they seek clarification from Race Control. I would like all of you to notice that the team has realised that Lewis is under a lot of anxiety so they try to relax him by saying "Let's just do it by the book" and telling him to "Just keep it together"

1:56 - 2:03 Team : OK Lewis, your KERS is full, your KERS is full. Just be aware. You can go back to black F2, black Foxtrott 2.
More procedural steps towards Lewis by the team.

2:05 - 2:08 Lewis : Any news from Charlie whether I can take it back or not.
Here again Lewis demonstrates how anxious he is to know more about whether he can get back that position.Natural if you consider that he feels that he has done nothing wrong, since the Toyota made a mistake.

2:08 - 2:11 Team : We are still waiting on a response Lewis, still waiting.
The team tries to relax Lewis by telling him that they are still waiting for a response by the people whose responsibility it is to inform the teams on such occasions.

2:20 - 2:24 Team : Lewis, work on your brakes please.Work on your brakes. Front brakes are cold.
Now the team clearly sees from the telemetry that Lewis is not doing what he should be focusing which is driving! Oure evidence of person in anxiety.

2:51 - 2:58 Team : If we are able to use,deploy KERS that would be good. If you can deploy KERS please do so now.
More procedural information coming from the pit wall.

3:12 - 3:24 Team : OK, Lewis, this is the last lap of the race. At the end of the lap the safety car will come in, you just proceed over the line without overtaking, without overtaking. We are looking into the Trulli thing, but just hold position.
At last the team informs its driver that he needs to end the race as it stands at the moment and the matter will be resolved later on. This is the only time all throughout this 3 and a half minute conversation that the Team is in control of the situation.


AFTERMATH
The stewards asked Hamilton and Team Manager David Ryan 'specifically' whether the British driver was instructed to allow Trulli's Toyota to pass him. McLaren and Lewis answer was "No".
RESULT : Trulli gets a 25 second penalty!

AFTERMATH OF THE AFTERMATH
The FIA examines the previous conversation!
RESULT : Hamilton gets Disqualified, Trulli gets back his 3rd place finish.

CONCLUSIONS
You cannot expect from Lewis(who at the moment was overwelmed with anxiety) and a team(that was at a loss for the matter all throughout the conversation) to possibly give you credible insight.

I can't be the judge of Toyota for its actions, I can be the judge of the FIA for theirs. It is a complete insult to the sport to rely on false information in order to give out penalties and disqualifiacations. The evidence was there for the Race Control to study and make out it's decisions on the Lewis/Trulli situation. They did not, instead they instead brought a driver and a team representative to give their insight on the matter! Complete farce if you ask me! If there is a penalty to be given then it is towards the Race Control! BAN FOR LIFE, NO QUESTIONS ASKED!

The evidence is presented to you as they are! No cut out parts, no grey areas, no lies. I believe that Formula 1 is the greatest sport in the world! I believe that the greatest sport in the world should have better management. Enough with Race Controls, Diffuser talks, Sound Analysing Procedures!

Controversy is always part of any sport! Controversy is one thing, incompetence is another!

THE RIGHT DECISION
Due to insufficient evidence towards the guilt of Toyota, Trulli should have been demoted to 4th, Hamilton should have kept 3rd. Lewis and McLaren cleared of all charges!



Was I in McLaren's shoes I would take the matter as far as it goes! Since I am not, I can only write this column and protest.

PS : FOR THE FIA
SHAME ON YOU!


#32 bira

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 09:33

Originally posted by lv4

1:10 - 1:11 Lewis : I let him past already.
Here more insight from Lewis. This statement in no means proves that Lewis consciously allowed Truli to pass him!


:rotfl: :lol:

Seriously, though: nice try. The difference between "he already passed me" (which Lewis did not say) and "I let him past already" (which Lewis did say) is in the intent of Lewis Hamilton himself. "I let him past already" means exactly what you're trying to dispel.

#33 lv4

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 09:37

I'm sorry Bira, but you need to rethink the whole matter!

You are looking at it from a different point of view!

Yes Hamilton did slow down, and Yes his Team did tell him to let the Toyota through. But all of that proves nothing! Trulli should have never been penalised based on what hamilton stated!

The stewards should have listened to the conversation and then draw their conclusions!

If you disagree then, I'm sorry to say that you are biased towards Lewis.

#34 stevvy1986

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 09:40

Originally posted by lv4
CONCLUSIONS
You cannot expect from Lewis(who at the moment was overwelmed with anxiety) and a team(that was at a loss for the matter all throughout the conversation) to possibly give you credible insight.


oh come on, just because he was a bit anxious doesn't mean he couldn't have answered yes, rather than no (the same goes for Ryan) and if he was that anxious, when he'd calmed down he should have made contact with the stewards to explain he was anxious during the hearing, that he was wrong to give the answer he did, and tell them the truth

#35 lv4

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 09:42

If he had answered "yes" he would be guilty of unsportsmanship!

Remember Rubens/Michael saga???

Come on you guys! I doubt Lewis cared that much about trulli getting penalised! What Hamilton did care was claming 3rd place which based on the rules he should be awarded!

#36 Guizotia

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 09:47

Whitmarsh has asserted he was in the dark:

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74189

and Lewis has called his own press conference.

#37 Gareth

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 09:50

Originally posted by Guizotia
Whitmarsh has admitted he was in the dark:

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74189

and Lewis has called his own press conference.

Don't suppose you could edit that "admitted" to "claimed"?

#38 lv4

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 09:55

Bad day for McLaren and Lewis having to admit that they lied!

This happens in football almost every day! A player goes down in the penalty area trying to cheat the referee! Take a look!

It is in the responsibility of the F1 management to clearly identify how and where penalties are applicable!

#39 Guizotia

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 09:56

Originally posted by Gareth

Don't suppose you could edit that "admitted" to "claimed"?


Fair point.

I edited the timeline to say 'asserts' rather than 'admits'. I think 'claimed' is emotionally charged, people read it to mean 'lied'.

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#40 Gareth

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 10:02

Originally posted by Guizotia


Fair point.

I edited the timeline to say 'asserts' rather than 'admits'. I think 'claimed' is emotionally charged, people read it to mean 'lied'.

:up: Asserts is much better, definitely more neutral. Cheers.

#41 Dalek Caan

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 10:03

Now Hamilton has admitetd everything to the media. :down:

#42 Guizotia

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 10:18

Originally posted by Dalek Caan
Now Hamilton has admitetd everything to the media. :down:


From James Allen's twitter:

Hamilton has just admitted everything, apologised for lying, said it's the worst moment of his life


Still waiting for a fuller summary, but I think the press conference is still ongoing, or has only just finished.

Will update the timeline as soon as I have it.

#43 stevvy1986

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 10:20

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74202

#44 Nick Planas

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 12:23

Oh for heaven's sake - I wish everyone - teams, drivers, FIA, stewards, but most importantly us fans, would chill out over this and be sensible.

It was only a motor race - not a murder trial, war crimes trial, etc.

What it needs is a sensible decision from the stewards - a very simple one really:

Q:Was Trulli correct in repassing Hamilton?
If yes, then Trulli 3rd Hamilton 4th
If no, then Hamilton 3rd, Trulli 4th

Supplementary question:
Did McLaren / Hamilton hide some of the truth from the stewards?
If yes: Fine them / him or put him back to 4th (if they hadn't already - and if they had it would not have been a relevant issue anyway)
If no: Leave it be / slap them on the wrist

I repeat this is only a motor race, not a major court case. But now a well known member of McLaren is going home suspended. I hope they re-instate him after a cooling off period. After all how many times have other teams / drivers been economical with the truth in the past? Don't get me started on that!

We've also seen Hamilton apologising. Good for him. Now could we wheel out several more well-known names from the last 30 years of Formula 1 to apologise for all the misleading, dishonest and downright underhand statements they've made. We could have a World Championship of apologies - it would take all year and in some cases we may even see similar names at the top...

Ultimately I really really really don't care who said what to whom, but on the track I want to see action, and make my judgements from that. If the stewards could do the same thing, and make their decisions swiftly, then fine, but how long is this crap going to go on for?

Incidentally, the original punishment meted out to Trulli was also way over the top - just reverse the positions! It's all so simple. Why move him back to 12th because he only gained one place. Of course, the stewards have to go by the rule book, written by the FIA...

If every motor racing fan (motor racing, not just McLaren fan, Ferrari fan, Hamilton fan, etc) would just stop ranting about all of this irrelevant soap-opera stuff and consider how they really want to see a race result declared, I'm sure eventually the comments would filter through to the powers that be... or at least to the journalists who write about F1.

Right. I'm going back to the real world now...

#45 Nick Planas

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 12:24

Ooops:

If no: Leave it be / slap them on the wrist

I meant... If no: Leave it be.

The wrist bit was meant to have been deleted!

#46 Guizotia

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 19:00

The FIA accepts Lewis' account:

"We recognise Lewis's efforts to set the record straight today," said an FIA spokesman. "It would appear that he was put in an impossible position."

Upding the timeline with the FIA's comments.