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Should a result be sacrosanct?


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#1 Mr_K

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:07

First time post so please be gentle. :)

Anyway, what with all the furore over the Aus GP, the result, the revised result, the revised revised result, the incompetence or otherwise of the stewards, the duplicity of McLaren etc etc etc I was wondering why F1 struggles so hard to appear credible and why so many fans are getting fed up with the FIA (and believe me a lot are - maybe not the hardcore, but F1 needs more than just the hardcore fan)

So what to do?

First let's address the fact that drivers cheat. Not just Lewis, but others too, maybe the majority if given the opportunity. It is just an aspect of the ruthlessness required to be a top sportsman, think Senna, think Prost etc etc. Just look at football, cheating and lying to the officials is practically de rigeur - diving, claiming the ball crossed the line etc, tennis too where players take a "bathroom" break to regroup if a match is going badly, or claim a ball was out when it obviously was not. I admit I have done it - I have intentionally tripped someone in football (more than once) to prevent a goalscoring opportunity and got off with a yellow card. I should've walked, but I didn't. It is just human nature to try and get away with what you can. It is wrong, but it is a fact of life. Of course there are exceptions, but probably not as many as we would like.

You can try and combat this cheating with technology (hawkeye in tennis for example, access to video replays and all radio traffic etc in F1) but bending the rules and outright cheating WILL happen.

What differs between F1 and other sports is that the result is sacrosanct in everything but F1. Once the final whistle is blown, the match point won, then the result stands. It may not be fair, but that's life, and everyone knows the score.

Now I realise that F1 is a much more complex sport than, say, football, and some transgressions may not be apparent until after the race, (such as car finishing under weight) but surely it is not beyond the wit of man to deal with any such issues within 1/2 hour of the chequered flag, and ratify the result then? More satisfying all round I feel. Furthermore I would say that any potentially illegal event that occurs during a race has to placed under investigation by the stewards within 5 laps, and a decision given within 10 laps.

So in such a scenario how would Hamiltongate have played out? Something like this I guess.
McLaren would have lodged their protest. If the protest was heard within the half hour time limit and found in McLaren's favour then Hamilton would have been promoted to third, Jarno demoted to twelfth (as the rules currently stand) and the result ratified as such. THAT RESULT WOULD STAND. Then it becomes apparent that McLaren/Lewis have been economical with the truth, so the FIA suspend Hamilton and his car for 2 races as punishment. Not fair on Jarno, but life is tough sometimes.

In another hypothetical example, Button overtakes Massa by cutting a chicane, but no one notices at the time, and Massa's radio is broken so he can't tell his pit what happened until he comes in for his fuel stop. If he comes in 4 laps later and tells his crew, they can lodge a protest and the stewards have 5 laps to decide what to do. If Massa doesn't pit until 6 laps after the incident then it is too late to protest. Hard luck, unfair maybe, but we all have to deal with injustice from time to time.

What about issues such as the diffuser 3? In my opinion, if the cars are declared legal, they are legal, full stop. If an appeal against a decision is allowed then obviously their legality could be overturned, and they may have to be changed for future races, but for the current race they have been declared legal so they are, and if they gain points they keep them. Simple.

Or at least it seems simple to me. Am I being naive? Any thoughts anyone?

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#2 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:15

In short? Yes! But the F.I.A and their insessant meddling makes this impossible. If I was I would be too embarrassed to admit, I didnt look over the facts thoroughly enough the first time.

#3 john ruston

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:15

Of course it should be unless the cars are found not to conform to regs.

Any driver errors / wrong doings should be penalised by fines,suspensions etc

Thats what happens in other sports so why not F1

#4 kar

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:25

Originally posted by john ruston
Of course it should be unless the cars are found not to conform to regs.

Any driver errors / wrong doings should be penalised by fines,suspensions etc

Thats what happens in other sports so why not F1


So shortcutting the track? How about ramming a competitor off the circuit?

What about mandatory team orders? What about ...

F1 is such an aggressively fought race, to effectively let the drivers fight however they like with only fines or subsequent suspensions to worry about is to incite chaos at crucial points in the season where every place matters.

#5 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:27

Best first post for a very long time. Certainly better than the 'Hamilton is crane boy :lol:' we are used to.

I agree with the whole premise of this. Lewis is a liar but his deceit as it was didn't absolve the stewards responsibility to find out all the facts for themselves nor did it, in itself, cause Trulli a 12 place drop. Disqualifying him from Malaysia and China would have been a much more proper result IMO. In short, I like the idea.

#6 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:29

Originally posted by kar

So shortcutting the track?

Grid penalty.

Originally posted by kar

How about ramming a competitor off the circuit?

Removing their results for the year after being sure they've not won the WDC?

Oh OK then, disqualification for a race or more depending upon the severity of the case. I ought to be easy to apply the rules as the OP suggests.

#7 kismet

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:30

The result is patently not sacrosanct in every sport but F1. As it well shouldn't be.

Also, (provisional) race results in F1 really don't change that often...

#8 dabrasco

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:32

ill say a full hour after the race is enough for the stewards to review all incidents in the race and declare the result sacrosanct.


after that, the race result can only be revisited is in extreme cases e.g. car had a jet engine, race fixing etc etc


the business of constantly tampering with the order long after the race is terrible for the fans and the sport. especially when its done in inconsistent and incompetent ways.

its like there are two results, the one at the checkered flag and the one after all the backroom politics

#9 giacomo

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:33

Nothing should be sacrosanct.

#10 dinky

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:34

Saturday, 5:25pm.
And we leave you with news that Manchester United have beaten Chelsea by 3 goals to 2.

Saturday, 10:25pm
In an update to our earlier broadcast, we can now confirm that post match analysis revealed that one of the Manchester United players simulated a dive to win a penalty. The penalty score has been deducted and the result is now 2-2

Tuesday, 9:00am
In a further update to Saturday's match results, because a fan youtube video has surfaced showing Manchester United's Jimminy Cricket (I don't know any real names) offending off the ball, the result is now 2-1 to Chelsea. Congratulations Chelsea.

Thursday, 12:00 noon
In the very latest on last Saturday's clash between Manchester United and Chelsea we can now reveal that because Chelsea player Norbert Straightjacket did not have a valid work permit, Chelsea forfeit the match, giving the victory to United.

#11 john ruston

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:38

A Football results stands and then player or club gets suspended/banned.

Swimming ,cricket etc the same.

A one to three race ban in F1 would get everyones attention.

There will always be team orders so that is false.

If the car shortcuts you black flag him within the race as you would red card a footballer.

Same applies to crashing into other cars but things like Vettel and the Pole are racing incidents

What would the present lot make of Arneoux/Vilneauve at Dijon

Its racing not Dancing with the Stars

#12 dabrasco

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:46

Originally posted by dinky
Saturday, 5:25pm.
And we leave you with news that Manchester United have beaten Chelsea by 3 goals to 2.

Saturday, 10:25pm
In an update to our earlier broadcast, we can now confirm that post match analysis revealed that one of the Manchester United players simulated a dive to win a penalty. The penalty score has been deducted and the result is now 2-2

Tuesday, 9:00am
In a further update to Saturday's match results, because a fan youtube video has surfaced showing Manchester United's Jimminy Cricket (I don't know any real names) offending off the ball, the result is now 2-1 to Chelsea. Congratulations Chelsea.

Thursday, 12:00 noon
In the very latest on last Saturday's clash between Manchester United and Chelsea we can now reveal that because Chelsea player Norbert Straightjacket did not have a valid work permit, Chelsea forfeit the match, giving the victory to United.


yep thats exactly how football would be.... imagine all the dancing and drinking on the streets people do after a tournament win of team A over B

only to wake up the next morning and hear, new evidence has come to light to show there was handball before the winning goal was scored...the referee asked the player then if he used his hand, he said no...now we realized he lied has brought the game to disrepute and team A and said player have now been disqualified so team B wins.


yes it sounds totally ridiculous, buts thats exactly whats happening in F1 and no, the conditions arent that different.

its laughable when u think how much better things could be done in F1.....my guess is if it were run better, that would make it less likely for the powers that be to manipulate results hence they dont want to change for the better.

#13 engel

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:48

OK then ... Australia, final race lap, everybody's formed behind the safety car. 2 corners before the end guy in 12th place decides funk this, overtakes everyone and wins the race ... say guy in 12th place is a minardi (yes I know there's no minardi any more) that has never won a race, say winning a race means x million dollars in compensation from Bernie. And say P2 in Australia ends up being the guy that looses the WDC for 1 point at the end of the season.

You say yeah minardi should keep the win and get hmm grid penalized for the next race?

Lots of non F1 results have been changed by appeals etc. Yes it happens more often in F1 but that's the nature of the sport. Besides, what does the casual observer care if he saw Trulli on the podium, then was told Hamilton should have been there, and now is told no it's Trulli again. Casual by definition won't follow or care about such intricacies

#14 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:50

Originally posted by engel

You say yeah minardi should keep the win and get hmm grid penalized for the next race?

No, a ban for the season.

#15 dabrasco

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:51

Originally posted by engel
OK then ... Australia, final race lap, everybody's formed behind the safety car. 2 corners before the end guy in 12th place decides funk this, overtakes everyone and wins the race ... say guy in 12th place is a minardi (yes I know there's no minardi any more) that has never won a race, say winning a race means x million dollars in compensation from Bernie. And say P2 in Australia ends up being the guy that looses the WDC for 1 point at the end of the season.

You say yeah minardi should keep the win and get hmm grid penalized for the next race?

Lots of non F1 results have been changed by appeals etc. Yes it happens more often in F1 but that's the nature of the sport. Besides, what does the casual observer care if he saw Trulli on the podium, then was told Hamilton should have been there, and now is told no it's Trulli again. Casual by definition won't follow or care about such intricacies


with my proposal of one hour after the race to review all race incidents n finalize the order, no problem...he will be kicked out instantly.


future bans can be problematic in this case...e.g. if u are Rubens...in last race of the season, u do that to win and win the WDC...knowing you are gonna retire after the race anyway :lol: ... a future ban, even a fine cant do justice.

so i think there has to be some extra time (with limit) after the race to review everything n then declare it sacrosanct.

#16 engel

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 15:53

Originally posted by dabrasco


with my proposal of one hour after the race to review all race incidents n finalize the order, no problem...he will be kicked out instantly.


What if there's 10 things to look at ? I ve seen F1 stewards hearing about on track events at 23:45 at night when the race ended at 14:00.

It's the nature of the beast, football, tennis etc have simple rules. F1 has very complicated very intricate rules.

Originally posted by Buttoneer
No, a ban for the season.


Guy in P2 still looses the WDC for a point though ;) His fault? No ... he is getting penalized though

#17 dabrasco

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 16:02

Originally posted by engel


What if there's 10 things to look at ? I ve seen F1 stewards hearing about on track events at 23:45 at night when the race ended at 14:00.

It's the nature of the beast, football, tennis etc have simple rules. F1 has very complicated very intricate rules.



Guy in P2 still looses the WDC for a point though ;) His fault?


well first case, get more stewards... ive heard even NASCAR has atleast one steward per team, why the hell cant F1:confused:

all this bruhaha would have been avoided if there was a steward to clarify to Mclaren and Hamilton what to do after trulli went off

2nd thing, most of those things that are not that obvious an hour after the race, can be properly penalized with future race bans etc....


only in extreme cases like 'fixing' etc, in which case even football reviews the results....

with all the technology in f1 to make cars go fast, there is no reason u cant use some of the technology to properly regulate the sport like maybe listening to team radio and watching the racefeed instead of trullis word against hamilton.

#18 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 16:06

Originally posted by engel


Guy in P2 still looses the WDC for a point though ;) His fault? No ... he is getting penalized though

I think you come across unintentionally as a 'no can do' sort of person (no insult intended). There is nothing about your example or any of the recent racing incidents which would not have taken a group of professional and (keyword) permanent stewards a few minutes or laps to deal with.

I've said before there are people on this very board who regularly call incidents quickly and accurately even without all the additional data provided by a well equipped race control room.

Mistakes will be made. Goals are given and taken in football all the time which prove to be erroneous. But the decision is always final.

#19 engel

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 16:11

Stewards don't clarify anything, race control clarifies during the race, stewards examine whatever gets reported as a violation of the Sporting Rules.

And you can't have one person deal with all issues for one team ...it's unfair and I guarantee you in 2 races team x fans will say team y is paying off their steward to let them off easy while team x's steward hates them and punishes them. Current system is 3 stewards vote about each case, so you have more than one perspective, so in theory you are fair.

And once again, future race bans are again annoying arent they? Casual F1 observer: "Where the hell's Massa? Oh he was banned cause he squeezed a guy 2 races ago" ... and you still are left with WDC/WCC points. You are in effect allowing both championships to stand on wrong points hoping future bans will even out the score. Can you guarantee that the team/driver that was wronged in race 1 won't retire in race 2 when the other guy is serving his ban, and in effect stay in deficit?

Originally posted by Buttoneer
I think you come across unintentionally as a 'no can do' sort of person (no insult intended). There is nothing about your example or any of the recent racing incidents which would not have taken a group of professional and (keyword) permanent stewards a few minutes or laps to deal with.

I've said before there are people on this very board who regularly call incidents quickly and accurately even without all the additional data provided by a well equipped race control room.

Mistakes will be made. Goals are given and taken in football all the time which prove to be erroneous. But the decision is always final.


I m not a "no can do person" I m realistic. You may think you can call things in 2 seconds flat, could you have called the hamilton mess in 2 seconds flat? Probably no. And I am sure the very same people that claim everything can be called in 2 seconds flat will cry for 140 pages once a 2 sec flat call is or proves to be unfair to their favorite driver/team.

The point I am trying to make is really, how many non tech infringement related changes to the results do you remember? They are not *that* many ...

It's my opinion and I kinda thought that was the point of the board ... to express my opinion.

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#20 giacomo

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 16:12

Originally posted by Mr_K

First let's address the fact that drivers cheat. Not just Lewis, but others too, maybe the majority if given the opportunity. It is just an aspect of the ruthlessness required to be a top sportsman, think Senna, think Prost etc etc.

I think to claim that ALL drivers are cheaters is an outrageous pretension. Hamilton being a cheater doesn't mean that Raikkonen or Vettel are cheaters as well.

It was the same when McLaren was caught having a mole within their main rival team: Suddenly their apologists declared that ALL teams were spying.


Hamilton, McLaren and their supporters: Birds of a feather?

#21 Mr_K

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 16:21

Originally posted by giacomo

I think to claim that ALL drivers are cheaters is an outrageous pretension. Hamilton being a cheater doesn't mean that Raikkonen or Vettel are cheaters as well.

It was the same when McLaren was caught having a mole within their main rival team: Suddenly their apologists declared that ALL teams were spying.


Hamilton, McLaren and their supporters: Birds of a feather?


Are you implying I am a McLaren fan. Anything but, I'm afraid. I've always supported Ferrari, if you must know, although I don't see how this is relevent.

I did not claim that all drivers cheat. What I said was that drivers other than Hamilton have cheated before, and perhaps, given the opportunity to take an unfair advantage that they thought they could get away with, MAYBE more than half of competitors would do so. Slightly different to saying ALL drivers cheat. Talk about twisting words.

#22 giacomo

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 16:24

Correction:

I think to claim that THE MAJORITY of drivers are cheaters if given the opportunity is an outrageous pretension. Hamilton being a cheater doesn't mean that Raikkonen or Vettel or anyone else are cheaters as well.

It was the same when McLaren was caught having a mole within their main rival team: Suddenly their apologists declared that ALL teams were spying.


Hamilton, McLaren and their supporters: Birds of a feather?

#23 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 16:36

Originally posted by engel
I m not a "no can do person" I m realistic. You may think you can call things in 2 seconds flat, could you have called the hamilton mess in 2 seconds flat? Probably no. And I am sure the very same people that claim everything can be called in 2 seconds flat will cry for 140 pages once a 2 sec flat call is or proves to be unfair to their favorite driver/team.

The point I am trying to make is really, how many non tech infringement related changes to the results do you remember? They are not *that* many ...

It's my opinion and I kinda thought that was the point of the board ... to express my opinion.

I'm not criticising the fact of your opinion, I'm criticising that it appears you can't see past your own objections. I apologise if you thought I was trying to prevent you expressing your opinion, I really was not. I'm also emphatically NOT holding myself out as someone who got the call right - I didn't - but there were plenty here who did and that's because they knew the rules. The Stewards are not professionals. Surely you can see that this point alone creates problems for our current position?

I just don't see how a sport which aims to be the pinnacle of motorsport can be so far behind other forms in terms of the way it is policed.

There are, in reality, very few barriers to calling the race result early and leaving punishments to later races as long as you put your mind to it. We could all come up with scenarios which might end in an unsatisfactory result for a team or a driver but this is no different to what we have now or what Football has. What we would gain is certainty and that's got to be a good thing.

#24 engel

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 16:43

All for professional stewards, and at least one ex-driver among them for the sake of accuracy and consistency alone. What I was saying, in a very long winded way I admit, is as things are right now 95% of the issues do get dealt with quickly. 5% of them don't and in my opinion deservedly so, I prefer F1 to arrive at the correct decision on something rather than live with the wrong one and hope to sort it out in the future. Which is what the lets rush to publish a result and force it to stand approach translates to, for me at least.

Obviously other/opposing opinions are as valid as mine :)

#25 HP

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 16:45

Originally posted by Buttoneer
I just don't see how a sport which aims to be the pinnacle of motorsport can be so far behind other forms in terms of the way it is policed.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but then suddenly a thought crossed my mind. Is it really the FiA alone?

After all they police quite a number of other motor racing related sports, with much, much less controversy. There have to be other issues involved.

#26 HoldenRT

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 17:32

I think it's better the way it is now to be honest. I'd be more annoyed in your alternative scenarios then I am now (which isn't much).

I agree with you that it's human nature to bend the rules as much as you can in your favour. Personally, I'm not upset very much with Lewis or McLaren. It's how they've handled things in the last few days that's been stupid to me. I don't think the FIA did much wrong here though (although the stewards last Sunday definately messed up), I don't think it harms the sport very much. These things are what you come to expect from F1. This whole issue, I don't think has been a very big deal. :confused:

The casual fans who tune into the odd race will think he was 4th. The people that follow the sport in more depth and watch every race will know what was changed and why or why not that happened.

F1 isn't football. It isn't tennis. It isn't running. It has very little in common with other sports. Even other motor sports. It's a wierd hybrid of soap opera, eccentricity, glamour, porn (horny Max), comedy, technology/engineering, drama, politics, corruption, thriller/horror (FIA interventions to make the final races more exciting), and yes sport. It's got it's own rules, it's own excitement and it's own pitfalls. It's the pinnacle of motorsport in all things good AND bad. If you are looking for purety of results and skill levels, I don't think motor sport is the right sport, and especially F1. Try the Olympics.

I agree with you about the diffuser 3, because something that big scale would harm the sport in my opinion. Which is why they wouldn't do such a thing, if they are deemed illegal April 14, I believe the previous results will count and they will be told not to use them anymore.

#27 Atreiu

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 17:33

Obviously not, but the FIA is making a strong reputation for overullings and directly intefering with race results and future events. Just look at what they did with the Australian GP.

#28 Apex

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 18:30

Good thread. :up:

I see no reason why most, if not all, violations of the sporting regulations could not be punished during or, if something happens near the end, immediately after the race. Only the most severe cases should need further review after the race.

#29 noikeee

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 18:36

Originally posted by dinky
Saturday, 5:25pm.
And we leave you with news that Manchester United have beaten Chelsea by 3 goals to 2.

Saturday, 10:25pm
In an update to our earlier broadcast, we can now confirm that post match analysis revealed that one of the Manchester United players simulated a dive to win a penalty. The penalty score has been deducted and the result is now 2-2

Tuesday, 9:00am
In a further update to Saturday's match results, because a fan youtube video has surfaced showing Manchester United's Jimminy Cricket (I don't know any real names) offending off the ball, the result is now 2-1 to Chelsea. Congratulations Chelsea.

Thursday, 12:00 noon
In the very latest on last Saturday's clash between Manchester United and Chelsea we can now reveal that because Chelsea player Norbert Straightjacket did not have a valid work permit, Chelsea forfeit the match, giving the victory to United.


:rotfl:

Exactly.

#30 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 19:19

Originally posted by Buttoneer
Best first post for a very long time.


IIRC mine was incredibly sarcastic and nobody noticed, I think I got flamed till I pointed out the sarcasm. You have to be careful what you say as a noob here.

#31 fifi

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 20:00

yes

#32 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 21:23

Originally posted by wewantourdarbyback


IIRC mine was incredibly sarcastic and nobody noticed, I think I got flamed till I pointed out the sarcasm. You have to be careful what you say as a noob here.

If we looked back I'm sure most would agree it was petite and yet perfectly formed.

Your first post, I mean. :blush:

#33 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 21:30

Originally posted by Buttoneer
If we looked back I'm sure most would agree it was petite and yet perfectly formed.

Your first post, I mean. :blush:


OOOOH you are awful,


but I like you.

#34 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 22:04

Well, stone me if you want, but this is one of the reasons I like NASCAR.
The stewards make calls virtually instantaneously and the final results stand, no matter what.
If there is an infraction found after reviewing the race footage, the penalties come within a couple of days and are applied to the points/next race and/or the wallet at the same time.
And appeals?
Nope, done deal, on the spot.
One car takes out another, immediate 10 lap sit in the pit penalty.
Cheat in tech. Immediate suspension for the crew chief and major dollar/points deduction.
Rough driving, they hit the drivers' wallet hard and all that dough goes to a single fund that either goes towards the end of year series bash or contributed to charity.
A lot more clarity, a lot sooner, and no appeal.

#35 Dark Monkey

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 23:08

They are already as sacrosant as Pope Formosus remains. :smoking:

#36 Rob

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 23:20

Not particularly wishing to use the Olympics (mostly because of the medals analogy)...

Would anyone be happy if Ben Johnson's Olympic gold medal stood because the results couldn't be altered?
Would anyone be happy if Marion Jones got to keep her medals?

Then there's the Tour de France.

If results were not able to be changed then blatant miscarriages of justice could occur. I'm all for being able to know the result you witness at the track is the correct result, but to gloss over injustices because of a desire for administrative streamlining would be a farce in my opinion.

#37 Atreiu

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 00:22

Originally posted by Rob
Not particularly wishing to use the Olympics (mostly because of the medals analogy)...

Would anyone be happy if Ben Johnson's Olympic gold medal stood because the results couldn't be altered?
Would anyone be happy if Marion Jones got to keep her medals?

Then there's the Tour de France.

If results were not able to be changed then blatant miscarriages of justice could occur. I'm all for being able to know the result you witness at the track is the correct result, but to gloss over injustices because of a desire for administrative streamlining would be a farce in my opinion.


And then, if a 100m runner jumps the start today, would anyone want him to be forced to start from 5m behind next week?

The FIA are messing not only with the results of races ran, but with the ones to come as well, and for the smallest reasons.

Somewhere they got crazy with the power at hands and never came back from this penalty-inflicting-race-deciding-power-trip.

#38 alfa1

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 00:28

Originally posted by engel
And you can't have one person deal with all issues for one team ...

I m not a "no can do person" I m realistic. You may think you can call things in 2 seconds flat, could you have called the hamilton mess in 2 seconds flat? Probably no.



I have a unique situation here.
I'm probably the first person in the world to have realised what happened with the Trulli/Hamilton thing.
Since I was sitting in the Prost grandstand, Trulli went off the road right near where I was and I saw the whole thing with Trulli going wide and Hamilton going past. Since I was listening to the Toyota radio, I also got immediate news of how it was playing out in subsequent moments.

If I was to presume that a dedicated steward for the Toyota team would listen to the Toyota radio comms, and that they were paying particular attention to the position of the Toyota cars on the track, I feel that they would also have been able to make the correct decision of "Hamilton P3, Trulli P4" at the time.

At the moment the FIA appear to have nowhere near enough staff to monitor situations.

#39 Cenotaph

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 00:50

In my opinion, results should never be sacrosanct. F1 is not the only sport were they aren't, think athletics, think cycling, basicly any individual sport where the sportsman is caught cheating will probably end up having his result changed, F1 is no exception to that, and shouldn't be. Even in colective sports there are rare occasions where a match can be repeated.

Sure, it would be nice to know once the race is finished nothing can change, but that simply isn't possible. penalties based on grid positions or fines are not enough to persuade ppl from cheating, and some races and some results are way more important than others.

Now, many sports are going to a crisis where we are just not sure anymore who won or who didnt, but what needs to change is the mentality of the athletes and ppl who are involved with them and in this case of F1, the stewards also need to be more "professional" in their decisions. Enabling bad behaviors is not the answer.

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#40 ali_M

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 01:15

Originally posted by Rob
Not particularly wishing to use the Olympics (mostly because of the medals analogy)...

Would anyone be happy if Ben Johnson's Olympic gold medal stood because the results couldn't be altered?
Would anyone be happy if Marion Jones got to keep her medals?

Then there's the Tour de France.

If results were not able to be changed then blatant miscarriages of justice could occur. I'm all for being able to know the result you witness at the track is the correct result, but to gloss over injustices because of a desire for administrative streamlining would be a farce in my opinion.


My first post in a while, but I do find this thread interesting.

All have made good points here and while I sympathize with the sentiments expressed in the thread starting comment, IMO, Rob's points made here take precedence over all else.

It's one thing for drivers to give an opinion on an incident that clearly biases towards their being given the benefit of the doubt. However, it's another to give blatant misinformation as demonstrated by the radio transmissions. Race results should not stand under those discovered circumstances.

I have a feeling that the FIA and race stewards are feeling frustrated on this one since they're likely unaccustomed to this sort of easily discovered lying. They'll now have to cover for it in the future.

This last situation is a very uncommon event and we shouldn't get hasty or too gloomy and doomy about it. I much prefer the solution taken, rather than tarnishing a whole new race with events of the last one. Disqualification was a great solution.

#41 j madra

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 01:17

Originally posted by Rob
Not particularly wishing to use the Olympics (mostly because of the medals analogy)...

Would anyone be happy if Ben Johnson's Olympic gold medal stood because the results couldn't be altered?
Would anyone be happy if Marion Jones got to keep her medals?

Then there's the Tour de France.

If results were not able to be changed then blatant miscarriages of justice could occur. I'm all for being able to know the result you witness at the track is the correct result, but to gloss over injustices because of a desire for administrative streamlining would be a farce in my opinion.


I don't think the suggestion is that a result cannot be altered...only that results once confirmed (i.e. after all the drugs tests) should they stand. Following this analogy, Ben Johnson would still have been stripped of the 1988 Olympic Gold Medal as he was caught out by doping control during the event. However, there is an argument for Marion Jones to keep her medals as she was not caught out by doping control during the event. Rather, she was stripped as a result of testimony during the BALCO investigation...long after the fact.

Bringing things back to the Australian GP, I think that Race Control should have done a better job to sort things out during the event. Once the event was finished, any protests that could have an effect on final standings should be handled within a specified time frame from the event's finish (e.g. one hour). Once the results were no longer provisional, there shouldn't be any sort of action that would alter the results...even if they were wrong. Sports are never 100% correct.

Should the results of the 1986 World Cup been overturned after Maradona admitted that he used his hand to score the winning goal?

#42 chrcoluk

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 01:18

good thread.

Basically the stewards decision should have been final since a precedent was already set and the FIA need to get some credibility. The stewards saying they were misled only highlighted how poor the procedures are, why didnt they check radios, onboard cams etc. at the first hearing? F1 is run in an amatuer manner and with the amount of money involved its unacceptable.

You either need to allow every decision to be appealed, or allow none to be appealed. That simple, consistency, you cant pick and choose what can be appealed.

Seems evident.

More race stewards.
Race director should have ability to make a decision during race and that decision cannot be overuled, so example in truli/hamilton situation he could have told both teams what to do there and then and then that is declared legal.
Hearing details to be made public including transcripts.

If a decision cannot be made within 15 minutes at end of race (before podium) then any penalty cannot affect race result and only can be something like a grid penalty for next race. In case of last race of season the podium can be delayed if more time is needed for decision.