60 replies to this topic

[Guizotia]

Apologies to the people who dont think this should be a separate post, but I think this is a quite extraordinary move on the part of the FIA:

Autosport (http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74214)
"We recognise Lewis's efforts to set the record straight today," said an FIA spokesman. "It would appear that he was put in an impossible position."

The FIA will have chosen these words very carefully. By using the words "impossible position" they are saying that realistically there was nothing Lewis could do except follow the orders of his Sporting Director.

So they are being very careful to separate out Lewis from the McLaren organisation as a whole, and are laying the blame on the McLaren organisation alone.

I find this a very extraordinary manoeuvre by the FIA. One I did not expect at all. I said earlier that I WATCHED Lewis's press conference and believed him 100%. Allan Donnelly was present at the conference. I guess he did too.


to FIA on this

[PassWind]

Mmm I hope its not a prelude to the big kabosh on McLaren however, while as you say they practically absolve any blame from Lewis, where does it then shift?

[engel]

they are not "absolving him of guilt" if they were he wouldn't be punished/DQed.

[primer]

Originally posted by Guizotia
except follow the orders of his Sporting Director.

In the press conference Lewis used the words "team manager", not sporting director.

Originally posted by Guizotia
to FIA on this

Yup, as long as Lovely Lewis is safe, who cares if Mclaren sink.

[rolf123]

It's a calculated move by McLaren to blame it all on "Davey". Lewis Hamilton is a grown man, as he said so himself today.

It wasn't long ago when the driver used to make the decisions.

[stevewf1]

Originally posted by PassWind
Mmm I hope its not a prelude to the big kabosh on McLaren however, while as you say they practically absolve any blame from Lewis, where does it then shift?

Possibly a situation where Hamilton gets to score points this year, but McLaren doesn't?

[DiStefano]

What a bunch of disgusting cheats, they fire a guy who worked for them for 35 years to use him as the scapegoat and make sure Lewis' image isn't tarnished.

Well done Mr. Integrity.

[stevvy1986]

Originally posted by stevewf1


Possibly a situation where Hamilton gets to score points this year, but McLaren doesn't?

If they're implying mclaren may get penalised but hamilton won't, then it'd rule out race bans/exclusion from the championship as possible punishments (as even though they'd be punishing mclaren, they'd still be affecting Lewis

[Guizotia]

Originally posted by primer


In the press conference Lewis used the words "team manager", not sporting director.

He was promoted to Sporting Director late last year, so that is the 'correctest' title, as used by the FIA in identifying David Ryan. 'Team manager' I think is the slightly older title, but that will do too.

[inca_roads]

Originally posted by DiStefano
What a bunch of disgusting cheats, they fire a guy who worked for them for 35 years to use him as the scapegoat and make sure Lewis' image isn't tarnished.

Well done Mr. Integrity.

You've decided this is what happened yourself then?

[bond]

Originally posted by DiStefano
What a bunch of disgusting cheats, they fire a guy who worked for them for 35 years to use him as the scapegoat and make sure Lewis' image isn't tarnished.

Well done Mr. Integrity.

Nobody was fired today...
So it was that same man with 35years that set it up so now what?

[BullHead]

I'm thinking the FIA might have actually got this one right. Nice of them to not sacrifice our wonderboy . I do beleive that Lewis was manipulated by members of his team in a rushed and heated situation, and didn't actually know he was deliberately lying with a view to gaining advantage, ie cheating. A fool maybe, not a cheat.

McLaren as a team should perhaps be further punished over this. We know unfortunately they do cheat. They've got form, as you might say.

[Guizotia]

Originally posted by engel
they are not "absolving him of guilt" if they were he wouldn't be punished/DQed.

That's a good point. If the FIA now think Lewis was in an "impossible position", should the FIA reverse the DSQ. Of course that's not going to happen, but it seems to be the logical endpoint.

[senna da silva]

Are the FIA going to review their own officials in this matter and the AusGP? Because of their inability to make decisions on the fly all of this disrepute has come about.

[stevewf1]

I wonder what McLaren partner Mercedes thinks of all this?

[miguevaio]

Originally posted by DiStefano
What a bunch of disgusting cheats, they fire a guy who worked for them for 35 years to use him as the scapegoat and make sure Lewis' image isn't tarnished.

Well done Mr. Integrity.

[miguevaio]

Originally posted by Guizotia


That's a good point. If the FIA now think Lewis was in an "impossible position", should the FIA reverse the DSQ. Of course that's not going to happen, but it seems to be the logical endpoint.

mate, let's see......you lie, you recognize it, you say that also your boss lied and told you to do so....and you should get "innocent of all charges" ????????????......

what hamiltonian world do you live in? now, I understand better about "complete and inconditional fanboy love"...wow.....

[senna da silva]

Originally posted by DiStefano
What a bunch of disgusting cheats, they fire a guy who worked for them for 35 years to use him as the scapegoat and make sure Lewis' image isn't tarnished.

Well done Mr. Integrity.

Way to go, you managed to read a headline. Congrats on your major accomplishment.

[Monad]

Originally posted by Guizotia
Apologies to the people who dont think this should be a separate post, but I think this is a quite extraordinary move on the part of the FIA:



The FIA will have chosen these words very carefully. By using the words "impossible position" they are saying that realistically there was nothing Lewis could do except follow the orders of his Sporting Director.

So they are being very careful to separate out Lewis from the McLaren organisation as a whole, and are laying the blame on the McLaren organisation alone.

I find this a very extraordinary manoeuvre by the FIA. One I did not expect at all. I said earlier that I WATCHED Lewis's press conference and believed him 100%. Allan Donnelly was present at the conference. I guess he did too.


to FIA on this

Don't be so happy about it. They are doing it for other reasons and not from the kindness of there heart for Hamilton.

[BullHead]

Originally posted by senna da silva
Are the FIA going to review their own officials in this matter and the AusGP? Because of their inability to make decisions on the fly all of this disrepute has come about.

Agree. The handling of this confusion was poor, and it needn't have come to this. An inquiry into the competance of GP stewardship is necessary. That said, McLaren as a team used this incompetance to try their wicked way and should IMO be further punished. Lewis is a driver and pawn. Not totally innocent of course but has been duly punished, let him go now. Let's see the team punished and the stewards interrogated.

[ensign14]

Hamilton + Ferrari = Berniegasm.

[fed up]

Originally posted by Monad


Don't be so happy about it. They are doing it for other reasons and not from the kindness of there heart for Hamilton.

A lot of people can't see what is really going on here. This will end up at the WMC and Mclaren will be fined another $50m and loss of points. IMHO there are powers that will not stop until Mclaren, the team, is broken - finished.

This is all politics and the FIA know they can use emotion to hoodwink the fans. Using emotive words as lying, cheating etc etc are used to deflect attention and, more importantly, it gives the FIA carte blanche to do what they want. Rest assured there will not be one dissenting voice from the motorsport press or any press for that matter - they're all running scared.

Lewis and Whitmarsh have effectively plea bargained to save their own skins - Mr Ryan is the fall guy, but will probably receive a handsome pay off and told to retire gracefully into the distance.

People can't see that they are being manipulated.

[RoutariEnjinu]

I bet this has pissed off a few people on this forum who were enjoying themselves

[BullHead]

Originally posted by fed up


IMHO there are powers that will not stop until Mclaren, the team, is broken - finished.

This is all politics and the FIA know they can use emotion to hoodwink the fans. Using emotive words as lying, cheating etc etc are used to deflect attention and, more importantly, it gives the FIA carte blanche to do what they want.

People can't see that they are being manipulated.

: Don't get it. Why should any motorsport body have any conspiracy against any particular team?

[RoutariEnjinu]

Originally posted by DiStefano
What a bunch of disgusting cheats, they fire a guy who worked for them for 35 years to use him as the scapegoat and make sure Lewis' image isn't tarnished.

Well done Mr. Integrity.

This sort of ungrounded assertion without evidence is no better than those made by the Hamilton fanboys.

[senna da silva]

Originally posted by BullHead


: Don't get it. Why should any motorsport body have any conspiracy against any particular team?

They shouldn't, but they do.

[BullHead]

Originally posted by senna da silva


They shouldn't, but they do.

I know most people beleive this. I just can't see the logic, reason, or for that matter much real evidence. It's a matter of perception IMO. I could even see the logic behind the Spa 08 fiasco, at the same time as seeing the obvious perception of persecution.

[Lada Lover]

In this G20 new world order, some teams are Lehman and some teams are Goldman Sachs.

[senna da silva]

Originally posted by BullHead


I know most people beleive this. I just can't see the logic, reason, or for that matter much real evidence. It's a matter of perception IMO. I could even see the logic behind the Spa 08 fiasco, at the same time as seeing the obvious perception of persecution.

Well its Max we're talking about, not the most moral or ethical of characters. What is really evident, and there are many examples, are the inequities in punishments handed down by the FIA and Stewards.

[Monad]

Originally posted by BullHead


: Don't get it. Why should any motorsport body have any conspiracy against any particular team?

Do you remember with how much passion Mosley chased every reporter that said anything about that famous video of his? How he even tried to create new laws and sent everyone who made a comment to jail? That's the kind of man we speak about.
And i have a magazine where in an interview of his, he actually says that he has a problem with Ron Dennis and his team. Right there on paper. Now if such a man had a problem with you. What to you think he will do to you?

By the way i never saw any big newspaper having Mosleys face and calling him a big liar when he said "I thought the teams knew about it".

[RoutariEnjinu]

Originally posted by Guizotia
The FIA will have chosen these words very carefully. By using the words "impossible position" they are saying that realistically there was nothing Lewis could do except follow the orders of his Sporting Director.

Exactly as I, and others reasoned earlier.

Originally posted by RoutariEnjinu http://forums.autosp...726#post3555726


First and foremost:

Lewis is not innocent.

However, Dave is the company director of sporting issues. This was his job. He is the man at the top of this branch. He was the senior, and Lewis the junior in the meeting. If a senior director instructs him to do something, when it relates to what the director is employeed to do, it's no surprise he did what he did.

[...] Hamilton did everything 100% right in his role, racing cars.
There are different, specialised employees for dealing with stewards on sporting issues.

Even if the rest of McLaren knew what was going on. This was STILL Daves job, and he was at the top rung of dealing with it.

[...]

There are limited facts, and we're both making assumptions. You're assuming without evidence that it runs higher up than Dave, I'm assuming without evidence that Dave was trying to cover up his pit radio mess.

I'm merely giving the benefit of the doubt to McLaren.

[...]

Many people here are OBVIOUSLY inclined to push this more on to Hamilton as a driver, than on to a sporting director. This is bias, and no conclusions can be drawn from it.

However, in light of now knowing it was Dave Ryan who gave the incorrect call to let Trulli past, I don't think it's a reasonable and secure stance to say he is merely a scape goat.

See? I'm not a Hamilton fanboy. I merely tried to look at it objectively, always giving the benefit of the doubt, and it seems to be in line with what the FIA have now decided on.

This is why I said below:

Originally posted by RoutariEnjinu http://forums.autosp...549#post3555549
This discussion is pointless.

[...]

No usefull discussion or conclusions will be drawn from this thread, because anyone who tries is drowned out by anti-Hamiltons exaggerating and spinning things while slapping each others backs, and pro-Hamiltons in denial and licking each others wounds.

[...]

The Hamilton fanboys are useless, but so are the people just as blind on the other side. This thread is swamped by both, which is why This discussion is pointless.

Anyone that tried to analyse what had gone on as adults, were drowned out by the people acting like children on BOTH sides.

I agree with the FIA. The only reason I piped up is because of the stick this guy gets from people that think they have some higher moral ground, while spinning things just as dishonestly.

[Blue16]

oh well, Geneva to Marenello is a better commute than to Woking.

[BullHead]

Originally posted by Monad


Do you remember with how much passion Mosley chased every reporter that said anything about that famous video of his? How he even tried to create new laws and sent everyone who made a comment to jail? That's the kind of man we speak about.
And i have a magazine where in an interview of his, he actually says that he has a problem with Ron Dennis and his team. Right there on paper. Now if such a man had a problem with you. What to you think he will do to you?

By the way i never saw any big news paper having Mosleys face and calling him a big liar when he said "I thought the teams new about it".

Don't agree about the new laws and press comment, but do accept the possibility of personal grudges. So what we might be talking about in FIA bias is not conspiracy by one body against another, but a mere personal clash between people who don't like each other.

Is this the scenario we're looking at? Max and/or Bernie get on with some team principals and not others? Surely to protect their business models these people would not let personality differences get in the way of the business itself?

[Rob]

I'm by no means a fanboy but I do believe the FIA would be doing the right thing by not administering further punishment to Hamilton. He was clearly in an impossible position - his two options being to lie or to stitch up a senior employee and potentially sour the harmony within the team.

Don't forget, Hamilton is only 23. Ryan has been in racing since the early 70s. He will have a natural respect for Ryan who is experienced and an authority figure. Now, it's all very easy to say that one would have taken the moral high ground when one is looking in from the outside, but when you have to consider loyalty, team harmony, responsiblity and other emotions within seconds, it would be easier than normal to make the wrong choice.

23 is still young. He's been racing cars all his life so probably hasn't had the life experience to be able to deal with situations like this. It's a kind of naivety but only because he's been sheltered for years. This in my opinion is Lewis' greatest weakness. He needs to be more confident in decision making. If he'd had a proper job before he came to F1 and became a bit more worldly wise then I don't think he would have made the same decision.

[fed up]

Originally posted by BullHead


Don't agree about the new laws and press comment, but do accept the possibility of personal grudges. So what we might be talking about in FIA bias is not conspiracy by one body against another, but a mere personal clash between people who don't like each other.

Is this the scenario we're looking at? Max and/or Bernie get on with some team principals and not others? Surely to protect their business models these people would not let personality differences get in the way of the business itself?

You know, in the free world and free press there is always a contrary view on an issue, view it as a kind of balancing act. Human beings are not robots, we don't all agree, so there is generally always a different view. This forum is a case in point. Posters can air their views without fear of recrimination or having their FIA passes revoked.

The current F1 press are useless. Try finding one opposing view on the stewards decision, anywhere. You wont. They're all scared so, even those in the know dare not say anything. We therefore are only being fed one view, no opposing view, no analysis. Just vitriol and the constant bashing of one team.

I'm always suspicious when I don't think I'm getting the full picture and, so should you.

[EvilPhil II]

Originally posted by BullHead


Don't agree about the new laws and press comment, but do accept the possibility of personal grudges. So what we might be talking about in FIA bias is not conspiracy by one body against another, but a mere personal clash between people who don't like each other.

Is this the scenario we're looking at? Max and/or Bernie get on with some team principals and not others? Surely to protect their business models these people would not let personality differences get in the way of the business itself?

Its as simple as Mclaren are like it or not an extremely rich and powerful team. They also happen to be effectively leading the FOTA which is really undermining both the FIA and more importantly FOM.

Now if you dont think there is a problem when the face of FOM says words to the press to the effect that if the Mclaren head wants to get rid of him he will have to shoot him... then either you are a little simple or you are 12... this isnt a game. If you think Mercedes supplies Force India and Brawn out of the goodness of their hearts you are also an idiot.., this is all about leverage and votes. Unfortunately for us this is no longer a sport at all. It is merely the house of commons on wheels.

[BullHead]

Rob: Agreed. Lewis was in the wrong and got punished but he is not a deliberate cheater.

[BullHead]

Originally posted by EvilPhil II


Its as simple as Mclaren are like it or not an extremely rich and powerful team. They also happen to be effectively leading the FOTA which is really undermining both the FIA and more importantly FOM.

Now if you dont think there is a problem when the face of FOM says words to the press to the effect that if the Mclaren head wants to get rid of him he will have to shoot him... then either you are a little simple or you are 12... this isnt a game. If you think Mercedes supplies Force India and Brawn out of the goodness of their hearts you are also an idiot.., this is all about leverage and votes. Unfortunately for us this is no longer a sport at all. It is merely the house of commons on wheels.

Of course I know it's not a game (or is it?). It's business. But please let's not get too carried away. F1 is an entertainment business, not a napoleonic war strategy for world domination (or is it?) It's much more exciting than the house of commons on wheels, and these guys make war on each other for our benefit. We watch, we have these discussions (some people call our obsession sad). Now FOTA, FIA, and FOM all have a common goal in us and the general public. We pay the money to FOM, FOTA provide the entertainment, FIA make it look like a sport. I can understand personal differences between the key players, but not at risk to the money machine itself, which is why I can't see a logic in having any conspiracy against any particular (particularly "extremely rich and powerful") participants. BTW the money machine is precisely why there will never really be a breakaway series from FOTA.

[ClubmanGT]

Originally posted by Rob
Don't forget, Hamilton is only 23. Ryan has been in racing since the early 70s. He will have a natural respect for Ryan who is experienced and an authority figure. Now, it's all very easy to say that one would have taken the moral high ground when one is looking in from the outside, but when you have to consider loyalty, team harmony, responsiblity and other emotions within seconds, it would be easier than normal to make the wrong choice.

At the age of 16 you can have sex. At the age of 14 you can be tried as an adult. At 18 you can vote, drink and go to war. But when you are a kid, you're told you should always tell the truth. I'm sorry, Lewis is an adult. He should know better, and as he stated in his press conference, he made a dumb decision. I'm only 22, I'd love to know what I could get away with by your logic.

[airwise]

I strongly suspect that Spanky believes RD was behind his infamous video role. I really don't think he will stop and I do wonder whether they would have taken such a dim view of Baldisseri and Massa had they been in this position.

That's not to absolve Hamilton or Mclaren. Even as a fan I am terribly disappointed by their behavior. I just feel the persecution is way over the top, and that there is little evidence of even handedness or competence when it comes to the FIA and it's race control team.

[BullHead]

Originally posted by ClubmanGT


At the age of 16 you can have sex. At the age of 14 you can be tried as an adult. At 18 you can vote, drink and go to war. But when you are a kid, you're told you should always tell the truth. I'm sorry, Lewis is an adult. He should know better, and as he stated in his press conference, he made a dumb decision. I'm only 22, I'd love to know what I could get away with by your logic.

Try to make it in single seaters and you'll find out

[RoutariEnjinu]

By the logic of Hamilton being just as much to blame, Massa is also a nob for not appearing sorry about the punishment Alonso got for allegedly impeding him on a qualifying run in Monza.

However, I give Massa the benefit of the doubt, just as I do with Hamilton, and think he was just doing what his employers say, because his job is to race, and nothing more.

I know if I was Massa I'd have been feeling mighty uncomfortable in those conferences.

If that decision was overturned (because it was ********), would Massa have said sorry? If so, would the same attack have been used that he's only saying sorry because he's been found out? Would it have just been for his image?? If he didn't say sorry, would that make him worse, or better??

What's fit for the goose is fit for the gander.

I think Massa in the scenario above, and Hamilton in this recent one both played the same role, because their only job is to drive. Each team has separate specialists and directors for handling the other politics.
They can only listen, and follow the lead of the people in charge of the respective areas. Both drivers were loyal to the team, beyond their own integrity. Maybe that's a bad thing.

[Rob]

Originally posted by ClubmanGT


At the age of 16 you can have sex. At the age of 14 you can be tried as an adult. At 18 you can vote, drink and go to war. But when you are a kid, you're told you should always tell the truth. I'm sorry, Lewis is an adult. He should know better, and as he stated in his press conference, he made a dumb decision. I'm only 22, I'd love to know what I could get away with by your logic.

Yes, at 18 you become "an adult." Woo. On your 18th birthday a completely magical transformation takes place and.. OK, I'll cut the crap. You're no different to the day before when you were 17. It's just an age that society has decided you need a new label at.

You learn things about life when you are a child and the learning doesn't stop when you become an adult. However much one thinks they know at 18, there are another billion and one scenarios one has yet to experience. To make a "dumb" decision, one has to have a lack of intelligence. Lewis isn't stupid, he is merely a bit naive.

It's not about getting away with anything, for clearly Lewis was punished by disqualification. Being young doesn't mean someone should get away with things. A man is the sum of his memories and Lewis will learn from his mistakes. The whole experience will make him stronger.

[BullHead]

right again

[bogi]

Originally posted by ensign14
Hamilton + Ferrari = Berniegasm.

[ClubmanGT]

Originally posted by BullHead


Try to make it in single seaters and you'll find out

I can't, all the single seater kids in this country are 15 and can get away with more than I can! But at least I can have sex with their girlfriend and they cant

[BullHead]

Originally posted by ClubmanGT


I can't, all the single seater kids in this country are 15 and can get away with more than I can! But at least I can have sex with their girlfriend and they cant

Nice one. What matters is what matters, eh?

[as65p]

So FIA finally coming to their senses and now hastens to protect the goose that lays the golden eggs... about time.

Plus, we finally learn that there was soemone holding a gun to Lewis' head during the stewards meeting and forced him to lie. Oh this evil man Dave Ryan...

[Rob]

Originally posted by as65p
So FIA finally coming to their senses and now hastens to protect the goose that lays the golden eggs... about time.

Plus, we finally learn that there was soemone holding a gun to Lewis' head during the stewards meeting and forced him to lie. Oh this evil man Dave Ryan...

If that was the case then they would have rescinded the disqualification. However, it is still in place and there is no chance of it being lifted. He's been punished for it, hardly protected.

[learningtobelost]

Why is it so hard to believe that a driver would do what he is told by his employers?