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Movable front wings - teams that are running them


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#1 plg101

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 14:45

It seems clear from the TV coverage which teams are running KERS - but I haven't seen a definitive list anywhere - or heard it talked much about in race coverage about which teams have a movable front wing, or it if is clear when it has been activated (the TV graphic shows the KERS charge, but not the wing position)

Is it as simple as they are all running it, but it isn't reported through telemetry? Or is there a mix of teams with different configurations?

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#2 Madras

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 14:46

I think they all have movable front wings.

#3 tkulla

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 14:48

I'm surprised this hasn't received more notice too. Frankly, I expect it to be almost as significant as KERS, yet I've heard very little spoken about it.

#4 SchumiBoy

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 14:49

I think it was Force India that mentioned that they have no movable elements on their wing

#5 Madras

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 14:49

Originally posted by tkulla
I'm surprised this hasn't received more notice too. Frankly, I expect it to be almost as significant as KERS, yet I've heard very little spoken about it.


Because they all have them (except Force India). So you dont notice the differences.

#6 tkulla

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 14:51

Originally posted by Madras


Because they all have them. So you dont notice the differences.


But I expected a bit of talk about how they're being used. For instance, are drivers using it to grab back some front downforce when following another car (it's intended use) or are they using it to take off some downforce (and hence a bit of drag) on the straights?

#7 plg101

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 14:53

Originally posted by Madras


Because they all have them (except Force India). So you dont notice the differences.


But surely there would be variation in the time of activation / benefits from different angles in the settings?

Or is it all on one mode switch - generally KERS is activated on the straight - so activate KERS>reduce wing angle> KERS off > resume wing position?

#8 Madras

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 14:55

Originally posted by plg101


But surely there would be variation in the time of activation / benefits from different angles in the settings?

Or is it all on one mode switch - generally KERS is activated on the straight - so activate KERS>reduce wing angle> KERS off > resume wing position?


It's probably not been talked about much because it's very hard to tell what they're doing with the wing settings. How is anyone supposed to know? KERS is a bit more obvious.

#9 plg101

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 14:55

Originally posted by tkulla


But I expected a bit of talk about how they're being used. For instance, are drivers using it to grab back some front downforce when following another car (it's intended use) or are they using it to take off some downforce (and hence a bit of drag) on the straights?


Exactly - some commentary about "and Massa is catching Alonso; on the last straight he used all of his KERS reserve, and can see he has used one of his wing activations as well"

The FIA were pushing for more transparency - pit radio, etc, which is good, KERS charge from telemetry (also good) - but not seen anything related to this at all. Most strange.

#10 Madras

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 14:57

Is the average fan going to be interested in how many wing flap activations a car has used? To be honest I couldnt give a rat's ass.

#11 plg101

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 15:01

Originally posted by Madras
Is the average fan going to be interested in how many wing flap activations a car has used? To be honest I couldnt give a rat's ass.


I'm not suggesting that you should care.... but as this is an F1 related forum I thought I would throw the question out to the wise...

I'm just curious that it has had almost zero mention in the coverage, whilst KERS has had a lot. Most fans don't car about any of the tech, and with the colour schemes and sponsors removed, 80-90% can't tell one car from another (I think Autosport had a test earlier in the year)...

#12 David Ricardo

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 15:05

Alonso and Hamilton where asked about this movable front wing in Australias thursday press conference (IIRC), and both of them said that they didn´t use it.

#13 Madras

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 15:05

You are right it hasnt had much mention, and it's possible that it's because it doesnt actually have much effect, and they probably all use the wing changes at the same times - when they get to long straights for example. I think it's just not very interesting, since they can only change twice a lap.

#14 Madras

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 15:06

Originally posted by David Ricardo
Alonso and Hamilton where asked about this movable front wing in Australias thursday press conference (IIRC), and both of them said that they didn´t use it.


Yes, I'm not surprised. It's probably more of a distraction than an advantage.

#15 EvilPhil II

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 15:18

Redbull and Toro Rosso do not have moveable elements.

#16 Madras

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 15:20

Looks like they're less effective even than KERS.

#17 plg101

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 15:26

Originally posted by EvilPhil II
Redbull and Toro Rosso do not have moveable elements.



Cool - thanks - and if Alonso and Hamilton aren't using it, then that's at least 6 drivers who aren't...

#18 Kelateboy

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 15:40

Originally posted by Madras


It's probably not been talked about much because it's very hard to tell what they're doing with the wing settings. How is anyone supposed to know? KERS is a bit more obvious.

KERS is a bit more obvious? How could you tell a car is running KERS, assuming you have no prior knowledge of which teams are running KERS?

-KB

#19 undersquare

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 15:46

Originally posted by plg101



Cool - thanks - and if Alonso and Hamilton aren't using it, then that's at least 6 drivers who aren't...


They're only allowed to move one element and on the multi-element wings they're all using I suspect that must make the adjustment pretty ineffective, with messing up the relationship between the surfaces.

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#20 leomax

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 15:50

Originally posted by David Ricardo
Alonso and Hamilton where asked about this movable front wing in Australias thursday press conference (IIRC), and both of them said that they didn´t use it.


That was after practice and not race,right?

#21 LostProphet

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 16:05

Originally posted by Kelateboy

KERS is a bit more obvious? How could you tell a car is running KERS, assuming you have no prior knowledge of which teams are running KERS?

-KB


Depends when you watch them. KERS cars overtook non-KERS like they were standing still in Oz.
But you're right though, without them actively deploying it in a situation like that, it's impossible to tell.

#22 Man of the race

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 16:47

I am pretty sure that at least Piquet jr. has a movable front wing. Maybe we will see it in action at tomorrow's start.

#23 pingu666

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 17:02

u can hear the engine rev up much quicker when they use kers, i think ?
they should have lights on the cars like they do in sportscars tbh

#24 Madras

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 08:12

Originally posted by Man of the race
I am pretty sure that at least Piquet jr. has a movable front wing. Maybe we will see it in action at tomorrow's start.


It certainly moves every time he crashes.

#25 F1Champion

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 08:38

I think engaging KERS and the moveable wings although not impossible would be a little too much at once. I wonder if the teams have set the KERS system so that when its engaged the wings drop too. After all you'll only need KERS on a straight and to overtake.

#26 slideways

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 08:39

From what I understand A. Changing the wings has practically no effect, and B. No one is doing it.

#27 Madras

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 08:41

Originally posted by slideways
From what I understand A. Changing the wings has practically no effect, and B. No one is doing it.


That's what I suspected. It would end up more of a distraction than anything, if you forgot to raise the wings for a corner you might go off.

#28 Pingguest

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:48

Originally posted by slideways
From what I understand A. Changing the wings has practically no effect, and B. No one is doing it.


Today Ferrari asked Massa to make more use of the movable front wing, according to the BBC.

#29 Madras

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:50

Originally posted by Pingguest


Today Ferrari asked Massa to make more use of the movable front wing, according to the BBC.


Probably just wanted him to alter it's position perminantly.

#30 BootLace

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 13:13

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/7984343.stm (1min30s in or so).

Button mentions it wasn't working for him on two different front wings, and appears he'd like to use it. Sounded like it was being used to optimise for lap time as opposed to helping with overtaking.

Pre-Australia, the few comments about movable wings tended to be along the lines of "I wasn't following anyone so couldn't tell".

#31 Pingguest

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 15:03

Originally posted by Madras


Probably just wanted him to alter it's position perminantly.


According to the BBC, Ferrari wanted Massa to change the front wing settings because he lost front end grip due to turbulence.

#32 flyboy

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 16:15

With the severely limited testing this year on Fridays, a movable wing element probably adds too many variables to test adequately. You would have to test the wing positions with the various combinations of fuel, tires, KERS, etc.