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Compared to the Brawn, how far behind are the usual suspects?


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#1 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 10:59

Compared to the Brawn, how far behind are BMW, Renault, Ferrari & Mclaren and can the gap be bridged this season before the titles are all but decided? Thoughts. :confused:
Right now I'd say the gaps are this.
Ferrari. 0.2-0.4 behind
BMW 0.3-0.6 behind
Renault & Mclaren 0.8-1.1 behind.

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#2 Dunder

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:04

As at now and in terms of race pace, I think the gap is quite big and Ferrari are further behind than your estimated gaps; something like

Ferrari +0.6
BMW + 0.8
McLaren +1.0

#3 magicon

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:12

Don't think Ferrari is faster BMW. As you saw, Button in clear air had a pit straight between him and nico after few laps.

#4 BuzzingHornet

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:19

Brawn are quick in wet and dry, on street circuits or race circuits... we saw a flash of that with Buttons pace at the pitstop window... they are clearly in front. He had a second in his pocket.

#5 Mika Mika

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:20

Originally posted by BuzzingHornet
Brawn are quick in wet and dry, on street circuits or race circuits... we saw a flash of that with Buttons pace at the pitstop window... they are clearly in front. He had a second in his pocket.


at least....

#6 Madras

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:21

Brawn have won the championship. It isnt just the diffuser, their car looks the best too, it looks well designed all over.

#7 JazH

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:23

Originally posted by Dunder
As at now and in terms of race pace, I think the gap is quite big and Ferrari are further behind than your estimated gaps; something like

Ferrari +0.6
BMW + 0.8
McLaren +1.0


I think it's a bit closer together
Ferrari, BMW 0.6
McL 0.8

Way way behind though, not sure Brawn will be reached this season.

#8 magicon

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:29

Yeah no testing too this season.

#9 alfa1

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:31

Originally posted by JazH
Way way behind though, not sure Brawn will be reached this season.



Although it does seem that they have difficulty in getting the car dialled in to the circuit. They certainly arent a second a lap quicker than anyone else in practise 1. Its taking time.
So... there will be races here and there where for whatever reason, they dont get it worked out before the race. Maybe if one or two sessions are washed out with rain before a dry race.

#10 Madras

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:32

The only team within range is Toyota.

#11 tkulla

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:36

There are two Brawn cars, remember. Rubens (who is no slouch) didn't seem to have a big edge on the chasing pack in the dry even when he had clean air. Toyota, RBR and Williams seemed to be even with him as I was looking at the live timing. He actually was losing a tenth or two a lap to Jarno (2nd) & Jenson (3rd) even after he passed Alonso and had nobody holding him up. Once the top two pitted, Button went purple for five consecutive sectors before pitting and coming out in the lead. Impressive.

#12 Matt Somers

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:37

Originally posted by tkulla
There are two Brawn cars, remember. Rubens (who is no slouch) didn't seem to have a big edge on the chasing pack in the dry even when he had clean air. Toyota, RBR and Williams seemed to be even with him as I was looking at the live timing. He actually was losing a tenth or two a lap to Jarno (2nd) & Jenson (3rd) even after he passed Alonso and had nobody holding him up. Once the top two pitted, Button went purple for five consecutive sectors before pitting and coming out in the lead. Impressive.


10KG's worth of fuel more than them and he was only being dropped by a few tenths ;)

#13 Bruce

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:39

McLaren have promised to be back in competitive form for the start of the European season - given their current deficit, do you think this is possible? Having said that, with Hamilton finishing 3rd (dsq) and 7th, they're not all that far away eh?

It'll be interesting to see how ferrari and McLaren respond....

#14 Dunder

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 13:32

Originally posted by Bruce
McLaren have promised to be back in competitive form for the start of the European season - given their current deficit, do you think this is possible? Having said that, with Hamilton finishing 3rd (dsq) and 7th, they're not all that far away eh?

It'll be interesting to see how ferrari and McLaren respond....


I can't see it personally, not with testing restricted to race weekends. They will close that gap for sure but my thought would be that they may get to the level of Williams/Toyota at best by mid-season. With Brawn it is quite clearly more than just a DD diffuser, they have a car which is obviously very well designed and put together.

I am afraid this season will turn into a procession (not that I have anything against Brawn GP).

n.b. the above assumes that the ICA/FIA allow the status quo as far as regs. are concerned.

#15 Bruce

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 13:35

Yes - much will depend upon the resolution of the diffuser issue -perhaps that is what McLaren are referring to when they say they'll be more competitive in Europe?

I think you're right though - Brawn seems to have their car sorted well enough that they'll be hard to catch regardless. Should be interesting.

#16 klyster

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 13:39

Brawn are miles ahead, and all power too then too :up:

#17 wordsby

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 13:47

The difference is Brawn GP have Brawn :))

#18 Madras

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 13:50

Well by Spain I think things will be a little tighter behind Brawn, with Ferrari and BMW having new diffusers, Mclaren too, and renault will have to get one as well of course.

I'm interested to find out if Red Bull and Toro Rosso will manage to run the new style diffuser? Anyone know?

#19 magicon

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 14:04

If i remember, RB cannot use the diffusers without redesigning the rear because of the pushrod design or something.

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#20 Der Pate

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 14:08

I don´t think, that the other teams will soon be as fast as the Brawn only because of new diffusors...as far as I know, you build a car around the diffusor...so with a new diffusor work isn´t done yet...the other teams also have no possibility to test new diffusors except Friday before a race...

#21 Madras

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 14:10

Originally posted by Der Pate
I don´t think, that the other teams will soon be as fast as the Brawn only because of new diffusors...as far as I know, you build a car around the diffusor...so with a new diffusor work isn´t done yet...the other teams also have no possibility to test new diffusors except Friday before a race...


They definitely wont be as fast as Brawn, but it will bring them in closer and closer to Williams and Toyota too.

#22 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 17:29

Originally posted by Der Pate
I don´t think, that the other teams will soon be as fast as the Brawn only because of new diffusors...as far as I know, you build a car around the diffusor...so with a new diffusor work isn´t done yet...the other teams also have no possibility to test new diffusors except Friday before a race...



When I saw Buttons in laps before his first pit stop, irrespective of fuel loads, I thought he had at least 0.8 in his pocket over Raikkonens Ferrari. Watching Hamilton leave Heidfeld after Heidi's mistake, makes me believe the BMW in the hands of even Kubica is no match for the Brawn. Vettel is clearly not ready to challenge for the WDC, even in his 3rd year and the Toyota and Williams drivers are not up to the job. Most estimates believe the double decker difuser gives you between 4 & 6 tenths and until the other major teams get them, they have no chance. That Brawn is quick and consistant.

#23 Pilla

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 21:35

Williams is the most likely team to catch them, out of the top 4 (Brawn, Toyota, Red Bull, Williams) Williams is the only one able to gain an immediate boost by putting on their KERS system.

I believe that Brawn had to compromise too much with the Merc engine to be able to put KERS into their car easily, Toyota has apparently decided not to run KERS at all this season, presumably Red Bull can buy Renault's KERS (which seems to be sub par) but who knows if they can package it or not. The Williams car was designed with their own custom KERS in mind.

#24 Dalek Caan

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 21:38

Originally posted by Pilla
Williams is the most likely team to catch them, out of the top 4 (Brawn, Toyota, Red Bull, Williams) Williams is the only one able to gain an immediate boost by putting on their KERS system.

I believe that Brawn had to compromise too much with the Merc engine to be able to put KERS into their car easily, Toyota has apparently decided not to run KERS at all this season, presumably Red Bull can buy Renault's KERS (which seems to be sub par) but who knows if they can package it or not. The Williams car was designed with their own custom KERS in mind.


Brawn don't want KERS, they don't need KERS. It will be on the BGP cars in 2010, not before.

#25 Pilla

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 23:36

I think if the KERS teams start to beat them towards the end of the year they may start looking into it, this is what they have to say about it:

http://uk.eurosport....oks-future.html

"It is not high on the agenda for us at the moment. We had to make some compromises to change the engine in the car, so the car has got to be heavier now than originally intended and that makes it quite difficult to install KERS. We will have to work hard to get some weight out of the car before we can get to a position where KERS is a possibility."

Just how much difference running KERS makes to the rest of the field will also be a factor in Brawn's pursuit of the technology.

"Like the rest of the group, we will be monitoring the situation," he confirmed, "This, I think, is one of the best tracks for KERS according to our simulations, and I think you may see that KERS-equipped cars will be more to the fore here than they perhaps would be on other circuits."