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silly rules under SC unlapping


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#1 chrcoluk

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 04:59

Am I the only one thinking the rule is very silly that cars can unlap themselves under the SC? whats the motivation behind it? It isnt safety as it add danger.

I also liked the days when engines werent all equal and a williams could overtake a minardi on a straight etc.

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#2 rookie

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 05:14

I think its a good rule, without the rule it can spoil the restart for the leaders and the backmarker, they get blue flagged anyway, so what's the point having them up there?

It also avoids situations like Australia 06 where Alonso was leading and had a lapped backmarker (Albers?) between him and 2nd place. After a lap he had a 5 or 6 second lead primarily because of the hold up.

#3 chrcoluk

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 05:18

exactly, lapped cars caught in the middle of it add situations the drivers have to deal with, it was far better.

#4 rookie

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 05:21

disagree. the backmarkers get blue flagged and have to move over anyway so its a hold up for no real benefit.

If there was no blue flags and you had to battle it past every backmarker than i would be inclined to agree with you, but as it stands with the blue flag rule, i see no point in leaving them up there.

I would rather see people fight for position rather than see a faster car get held up by a backmarker for 3 corners and ruin the fight for position.

#5 klyster

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 07:20

I think its a good rule, blue flags don't make driver react immediately, so precious seconds are lost while driver x gets out of the way of driver y and driver z takes off into the distance.

I suppose it all comes down to who driver z is and where your bias lies with him ;)

#6 Nasty McBastard

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:28

Originally posted by rookie
disagree. the backmarkers get blue flagged and have to move over anyway so its a hold up for no real benefit.


Thats fine if they jump out of the way the second they cross the line. But usually they dont, and even if its one or two corners it costs time.

Besides that, how many times have we seen a lapped driver be lazy on the start (even if its through 'fear' of causing the leader some drama) and the bloke in P2 be 3 or 4 seconds down by the time they cross the line? Thats probably a bigger issue that being held up AFTER the restart. We see more time lost, and quicker BEFORE they hit the line. Its worse if there are more than 1 lapped car involved.

Just clear them out of the way and let everyone get on with it.

#7 Clatter

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:30

Biggest problem I see with it is that it adds several unnecessary laps run under the SC while they catch the pack.

#8 Nasty McBastard

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:45

When theyre released, are the unlapped cars 'restricted' to certain speeds like when the SC comes out. If not, they should be able to be released at the start of a lap and catch up to go green the next surely.

Mind you, weve only got australia to go on so far and that was a bit of a balls up in general.

#9 dinky

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:54

Surely the point is that the lead driver had to pass the lapped car on track under green conditions, so the other cars on the lead lap should have to as well?

Otherwise, you are just giving the other drivers a free pass windfall.

Let's not forget that usually the lead car has just lost a chunk of time from his lead. I, personally, see nothing unfair in him getting that back while the others have to pass cars that he has already passed. If his lead was negligible, then there probably wasn't a backmarker in between him and the following car anyway.

#10 Clatter

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:59

Originally posted by Nasty McBastard
When theyre released, are the unlapped cars 'restricted' to certain speeds like when the SC comes out. If not, they should be able to be released at the start of a lap and catch up to go green the next surely.

Mind you, weve only got australia to go on so far and that was a bit of a balls up in general.


They should only be released once the track is clear so can go at racing speed, but it still takes over a lap for them to catch up. They don't all go past at the same time, and there is often some hesitation as to whether they should go or not, so they tend to get a bit spread out.

#11 roadie

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:13

Originally posted by Clatter
Biggest problem I see with it is that it adds several unnecessary laps run under the SC while they catch the pack.

This is my biggest complaint too. God it's boring watching the cars lap so slowly for what seems like an eternity.

#12 le chat noir

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:50

I don't think its necessary. I'd rather have less time behind the SC and the odd backmarker baulk a second place that was 2 seconds behind but now a backmarker and 1 second behind.

Also in Malaysia it would have been totally unnecessary to let those lapped past, as none of them were between front running cars - they'd all been lapped bar Glock. I don't think, had they done - esp at beginning of restart - it would actually have been legal.

And it wouldn't have been fair to Glock or Button who'd have cold tyres and less than a second's gap

#13 stevvy1986

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:51

1 solution would be to get the lapped cars to move to 1 side while the cars on the lead lap drive past them, and have the lapped cars at the back of the queue-that way you avoid them spoiling someone elses restart, and you avoid having to wait a few laps longer before the safety car comes in

#14 Racing Dutchman

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:57

Why don't they just tell the drivers to line-up behind the saftey car in order of their position. If you have just been lapped by the leader and your 15th, just slow down and get position number 15 behind saftey car.

One problem: it is way to brilliant by FIA standards, so the FIA will not use this idea

#15 Clatter

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 10:02

Originally posted by Racing Dutchman
Why don't they just tell the drivers to line-up behind the saftey car in order of their position. If you have just been lapped by the leader and your 15th, just slow down and get position number 15 behind saftey car.

One problem: it is way to brilliant by FIA standards, so the FIA will not use this idea


I think they did for a while, or am I confusing that with champ/indycar?

#16 le chat noir

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 10:13

the problem with the two suggestions after my last post are that someone is battling for 13th, then gets lapped, 13th is about to be but SC is thrown, suddenly 14th is a lap down on 13th.

consider that had it been a massa, hamilton, raikkonen or alonso battling with sutil for 8th in 07 or 08

#17 fnz

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 10:45

Originally posted by stevvy1986
1 solution would be to get the lapped cars to move to 1 side while the cars on the lead lap drive past them, and have the lapped cars at the back of the queue-that way you avoid them spoiling someone elses restart, and you avoid having to wait a few laps longer before the safety car comes in


Wouldn't it give a fuel advantage to the lapped cars? They get the extra lap without actually driving it (no tyre wear, no fuel consumption).

#18 Clatter

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 10:47

Originally posted by fnz


Wouldn't it give a fuel advantage to the lapped cars? They get the extra lap without actually driving it (no tyre wear, no fuel consumption).


It's a much bigger advantage to be allowed to unlap yourself.

#19 fnz

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 10:53

Originally posted by Clatter


It's a much bigger advantage to be allowed to unlap yourself.


I was under the impression stevvy1986 meant they lined up at the back of the pack AND got the lap for free. If that's his proposition they have the advantage of the unlapping AND the fuel consumption.

If they line up at the back and still are one lap down but still are a lap down (sounds more logical to me now) then you're absolutely right about the bigger advantage.

fnz

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#20 Tolyngee

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 11:01

Originally posted by rookie
disagree. the backmarkers get blue flagged and have to move over anyway so its a hold up for no real benefit.


The problem I see with backmarkers baulking others is what happened at the restart to Hakkinen(?) that one yr...

He had a problem with his car, couldn't accelerate, and no one could pass him 'til they reached the start/finish line...

Imagine if there's first, a backmarker, and then second, and the backmarker has such an issue...

While first is rocketing away, second (and everyone else) is stuck peddling behind this backmarker 'til they cross the line...

And, regardless of how slow this backmarker is, you don't dare pass him, especially if you are Hammy...

That car could be going 1 km/h, and the car in first now 50 secs ahead, and Hammy's still going to be asking "are they going to throw me out of the championship if I pass this car?"

So, probably not best to let potential baulks occur...

#21 rookie

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 11:08

I agree with you Tolyngee and Nasty..perhaps i could have worded my post better. It was in response to the OP and subsequent reply.

My issue is exactly as you described, tardy restarts by lapped cars and the potential to spoil a good fight for position while they take thier time being lapped.

I think moving the lapped cars to the back of the line is on balance a better solution than leaving them in the queue.

#22 stevewf1

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 13:27

On the last lap "restart" in Australia last week, the Brawns finished 1-2, but there was another car between them when they crossed the line. :confused:

In Malaysia, as they were lining the cars up, I heard Peter Windsor say something about the "lucky dog" rule...

#23 BullHead

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 18:42

IMO the SC role is seriously compromised by this rule. A Safety Car is surely supposed to neutralise a race with immediate effect - in case of debris, marshalls, etc - what's the point of waving cars to go past you, into the potential hazards ahead. Why bother with a safety car at all? Just have a new flag instructing drivers to drive slowly or something. This rule makes the safety car not a safety car.

#24 Alfisti

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 18:48

Originally posted by rookie
I think its a good rule, without the rule it can spoil the restart for the leaders and the backmarker, they get blue flagged anyway, so what's the point having them up there?

It also avoids situations like Australia 06 where Alonso was leading and had a lapped backmarker (Albers?) between him and 2nd place. After a lap he had a 5 or 6 second lead primarily because of the hold up.


As he bloody well should, the SC is an artificial means to close the gaps so the lapped cars offer some sort of cushion to the guy who had a gap anyway.

#25 engel

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 18:50

Car's aren't allowed to veer off formation and unlap themselves unless the track is "safe" ie clear of debris, marshals and equipment.

All this does is add a lap or two to the safety car period, and it's useful, imagine 1 and 2nd place being separated by 5-6 backmarkers, even if they obey the blue flags immediately it's still time consuming for the P2 guy

#26 Racing Dutchman

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 14:35

Originally posted by engel
Car's aren't allowed to veer off formation and unlap themselves unless the track is "safe" ie clear of debris, marshals and equipment.

All this does is add a lap or two to the safety car period, and it's useful, imagine 1 and 2nd place being separated by 5-6 backmarkers, even if they obey the blue flags immediately it's still time consuming for the P2 guy

That is the whole problem. It is like a bus having to drive around the station, instead of just backing up 5 metres (in F1 case: let go of the throttle)

#27 Alfisti

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 14:53

Originally posted by engel
Car's aren't allowed to veer off formation and unlap themselves unless the track is "safe" ie clear of debris, marshals and equipment.

All this does is add a lap or two to the safety car period, and it's useful, imagine 1 and 2nd place being separated by 5-6 backmarkers, even if they obey the blue flags immediately it's still time consuming for the P2 guy


And what is wrong with that?? The P2 guy still benifits as he's up the ar$e of the lapped cars he would have had to pass in any event. I cannot see the purity in unlapping the cars, it's a fake means to create a battle that was not deserved.

#28 Bayou Bengal

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 15:46

Originally posted by chrcoluk
Am I the only one thinking the rule is very silly that cars can unlap themselves under the SC? whats the motivation behind it? It isnt safety as it add danger.


Watching NASCAR and IndyCar, the leaders can get around a lapped car much easier on an oval than on a road course, so I can see why the FIA rules allow the lapped cars to move past and take up positions behind the leaders. However, one problem I see with this would be if a competitive car had a problem like a punctured tire that had put him a lap down. He would benefit greatly from this rule but he would still have to pass all of the cars still in front of him.

Another problem would be if a car was so dominant and had lapped all the other cars. Under this rule all of his work would mean nothing and now the second place car would be immediately behind him.

Originally posted by chrcoluk

I also liked the days when engines werent all equal and a williams could overtake a minardi on a straight etc.


Even befroe the F1 rule setting the number of engine cylinders, the teams had homogenized the engines. It was sad when Ferrari abandoned the V12 engine and changed to the V10 in 1996 and the same when Ford/Cosworth dropped the V8 and also changed to a V10 layout.

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#29 engel

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 15:49

Originally posted by Alfisti


And what is wrong with that?? The P2 guy still benifits as he's up the ar$e of the lapped cars he would have had to pass in any event. I cannot see the purity in unlapping the cars, it's a fake means to create a battle that was not deserved.


P1 though has a completelly clear road up ahead of him and all backmarkers a full lap behind, that's what's wrong with it.

And I don't disagree on the fundamental "fakeness" of the whole safety car deal, but since it's there it might as well be equal for everybody.

#30 Clatter

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 15:56

Originally posted by engel


P1 though has a completelly clear road up ahead of him and all backmarkers a full lap behind, that's what's wrong with it.

And I don't disagree on the fundamental "fakeness" of the whole safety car deal, but since it's there it might as well be equal for everybody.


Well it's not equal for the guy in front who in most cases has seen his lead disappear for no fault of his own.

#31 engel

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 15:58

everybody loses their gaps not just the guy in front ... what I was talking about was the rationale behind allowing lapped cars to unlap themselves, not the merits of the safety car system as a whole.

#32 Clatter

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 16:03

Originally posted by engel
everybody loses their gaps not just the guy in front ... what I was talking about was the rationale behind allowing lapped cars to unlap themselves, not the merits of the safety car system as a whole.


Which in the majority of cases will been that the cars behind the lapped ones will still have gained time, even though they will have to pass the lapped cars. It doesnt make it fairer getting the lapped cars out of the way, it just makes the race closer to heighten the excitement.

#33 engel

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 16:07

Originally posted by Clatter


Which in the majority of cases will been that the cars behind the lapped ones will still have gained time, even though they will have to pass the lapped cars. It doesnt make it fairer getting the lapped cars out of the way, it just makes the race closer to heighten the excitement.


OK theoretical example P1 - P2 - 5 Lapped Cars - P3 - P4

Surely you can see P3 is f*cked if he's stuck behind 5 lapped cars with P4 breathing on his neck and P2 way out of reach. Makes no difference if pre safety car P3 was 2 or 22 seconds behind P2 ... equally it makes no difference if he was 2 or 22 seconds ahead of P4, if grid stayed like that he has been disadvantaged by the SC while others haven't.

Anyways, another of those everybody's entitled to a different opinion thingees.

#34 Alfisti

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 16:18

You make ZERO sense, p3 still had to pass the lapped cars in any event.

#35 Clatter

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 16:19

Originally posted by Alfisti
You make ZERO sense, p3 still had to pass the lapped cars in any event.


And make up the time between each car as well.

#36 Apex

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 16:39

Originally posted by le chat noir
Also in Malaysia it would have been totally unnecessary to let those lapped past, as none of them were between front running cars - they'd all been lapped bar Glock. I don't think, had they done - esp at beginning of restart - it would actually have been legal.

And it wouldn't have been fair to Glock or Button who'd have cold tyres and less than a second's gap

But Button and Glock weren't really a lap ahead of everyone else, were they? I think it just looked like that because the timing beam is a little bit behind the start/finish line, so when they lined up on the starting grid after the red flag Button and Glock passed the timing beam while everyone else remained behind it.

If this wasn't the case Glock must first have passed and then lapped Heidfeld within two laps or something.

#37 engel

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 16:42

Originally posted by Clatter


And make up the time between each car as well.


Or get blocked into T1 by 5 cars battling for position and lose his place.

Originally posted by Alfisti
You make ZERO sense, p3 still had to pass the lapped cars in any event.


If you don't get the difference between a guy going into turn 1 after a restart with 5 backmarkers directly in front battling for position and the guy behind him in his slipstream and what he d be facing if it was still normal race I can't help you. Nobody said safety car was perfect, but they have to make rules to avoid the crazy scenarios.

Like I said before it's ok to disagree ... for example your assertion that backmarkers should stay where they are makes no sense to me but I try and give you arguments not zingers.

#38 MS7XWDC

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 16:42

Originally posted by rookie
I think its a good rule, without the rule it can spoil the restart for the leaders and the backmarker, they get blue flagged anyway, so what's the point having them up there?

It also avoids situations like Australia 06 where Alonso was leading and had a lapped backmarker (Albers?) between him and 2nd place. After a lap he had a 5 or 6 second lead primarily because of the hold up.


agreed 100 % :p