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How quickly could the other 7 teams make their own 'illegal' diffuser?


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#1 Handwashed

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 07:15

Would it be possible for teams such as Ferrari/McLiars/BMW to make their own new diffuser in a short space of time; then they could perhaps pose more of a threat to the Brawn cars? :blush:

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#2 Madras

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 07:17

They're trying to have them for Spain.

#3 Handwashed

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 07:22

Originally posted by Madras
They're trying to have them for Spain.

Thanks for that. Do you have any link about it please? (I'm not doubting you btw, just want to read it.) :wave:

#4 Atic Atac

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:03

According to comentators in Spanish TV, McLaren may have it ready for China, Ferrari will have it on China or Bahrain and Renault will get it in Bahrain or Spain.

Sorry, but i Can´t be more specific. Let´s see if someone has some precise info on this.

#5 Handwashed

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:05

Originally posted by Atic Atac
According to comentators in Spanish TV, McLaren may have it ready for China, Ferrari will have it on China or Bahrain and Renault will get it in Bahrain or Spain.

Sorry, but i Can´t be more specific. Let´s see if someone has some precise info on this.

That's very good to know. :up: Forza Ferrari! :clap:

#6 CaptnMark

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:12

Originally posted by Atic Atac
According to comentators in Spanish TV, McLaren may have it ready for China, Ferrari will have it on China or Bahrain and Renault will get it in Bahrain or Spain.

Sorry, but i Can´t be more specific. Let´s see if someone has some precise info on this.


According to our commentator (mentioned only in Australia race), Ferrari needs a major rear end redesign to do this.

#7 sanjiro

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:14

Sorry guys but if its worth 0.5s a lap as Horner from RBR said...
It will not be enough for McLaren or Renault.
It will make Ferrari the 2nd fastest car however.

#8 Atic Atac

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:41

Originally posted by CaptnMark


According to our commentator (mentioned only in Australia race), Ferrari needs a major rear end redesign to do this.


I heard that too. The commentators give that info based on talks with members of the team, or the test pilots, but what they say is mainly speculative.

McLaren must be pretty ahead in this issue as they have been struggling to find rear end downforce, so they have put a lot of effort into working a solution. Ferrari is powerful enough to make a fast development if needed. Renault will be slower, as usual.

RBR is suppoused to have difficulties adapting the system due to their suspension layout (anyway they look pretty good) and i haven´t heard anything from BMW, but they cannot afford to have a bad year after dropping last championship to develop this years car.

#9 slideways

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:57

BMW already started designing it before the first race, they will be the first to introduce a proper version of it IMO (McLaren may have some kind of liquid nails McGuyver style effort before that).

#10 fnz

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:59

Originally posted by Atic Atac
Renault will be slower, as usual.


i tend to disagree, Renault has a good in-season-devellopment tempo

#11 HP

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:06

Some folks will be in for a major disappointment. Rushing things might even make some teams going backwards.

Rubens diffuser broke in Melbourne with the start accident.

I also doubt that for an ill handling car like the Renault, more downforce makes it any easier to drive.

#12 Atic Atac

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 11:17

Originally posted by fnz


i tend to disagree, Renault has a good in-season-devellopment tempo


I agree that they are good on in-season-developement, but they lack the resources that McLaren or Ferrari have, so usually they are slower at bringing new stuff.

Anyway they use to be pretty good at optimizing their resources, which is important in this days.

#13 Owen

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 11:20

According to Autosport the McLaren 'illegal' diffuser will be ready for China. But we'll see. Certainly need something...

#14 UPRC

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 11:23

Well if all these teams switch to the so called illegal diffuser in the coming races, we may as well through the "illegal" bit out the window.

#15 Buttoneer

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 11:25

A few views on this already here.

I think McL will have one first but I also think it's won't be enough. It will take some time to tweak and finesse the rest of the car to make the most of it.

#16 Lontano

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 11:25

It depends on how much of the back of the car you have to change to fit it. If you can fit it without touching the suspension, it's "just" a matter of adjusting the aerodynamics of the car to match the diffusser. On the other hand, if you have to modify the suspension or move the gearbox, you may as well make a new car.

#17 giltkid

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 11:28

This is what Alonso had to say about 'illegal' diffusers -

"....it's difficult because you have to work on the whole car. It's not just adding the diffuser and suddenly the car is a second quicker.
The diffuser makes you go fast if you have a new front end, new sidepods, a new engine cover. You have to rebuild the whole car and that would take a lot of months"


I think anybody expecting an instant fix will be disappointed

#18 stonebutter

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 11:31

Even if the big teams introduce their own version I don't see how its going to be as effective as the Toyota, Williams, Brawn diffusers. Their cars were designed around it whereas introducing it midseason is just an add-on. On SpeedTV they said RBR would have to re-design their gearbox to make the rear end of the car capable of using a double decker diffuser. That alone is months of development.

The teams that played it straight with the regulations got screwed this year.

#19 Zarathustra

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 11:31

How about Red Bull? If they can get a couple of tenths from this then that would make Vettel even more dangerous to Button

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#20 Slick

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 11:38

Originally posted by sanjiro
Sorry guys but if its worth 0.5s a lap as Horner from RBR said...
It will not be enough for McLaren or Renault.
It will make Ferrari the 2nd fastest car however.


Saying that just having a DDD will make a car 0.5 seconds faster is a complete fallacy. It may be that if McLaren added a DDD to their car that they may go 1.0 seconds faster because of the interaction of diffuser and other aero parts of the car. It also may only provide 0.1 seconds of improvement because it interacts badly with other areas of the car. Or worst still it may make the car slower overall if it negates the effects of other parts.

Plus you have the fact that a McLaren has finished in the top 8 in two consecutive races (I know one of the them was stripped but they were there when the race finished) and neither of the Ferrari's have completed a race yet this year so a 0.5 seconds a lap increase for Ferrari doesn't mean they will finish a race or not. It may just mean that they will hit the wall at a slightly increased pace.

There are too many ifs and buts on the diffusers to say what affect they will have overall on any of the teams right at this moment in time.

#21 Apollonius

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 11:38

David Coulthard has said on the BBC that Ferrari need a complete redesign of their rear end to adapt the double decker diffuser solution. He said that isn't just a case of moulding new carbon fibre bodywork parts but also a complete redesign of the gearbox which he said will take a long time.

#22 Bloggsworth

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 11:42

It would take a couple of days to make something - But then, that's not the same as making something that actually works properly and is a balanced part of the overall aerodynamic package.

The whole situation arose because designers are such a pig headed lot, just like racing drivers they have no respect for any opinion other than their own (I recall Peter Hull telling me that "Alan Jones couldn't drive a greasy stick up a dog's arse"). Brawn clearly set out the rules for 2009 and they said no, we want our rules, so a fuzzy form of words which was agreed by all those with an input and allowed them to say "My ideas". So the ones with brains went away and drove a coach and horses through the gaps, now the teams that didn't think of it, because they were so busy telling themselves that they were the cleverest, are crying "foul!". Nothing like egg on your face to make you start trying to blame everybody else for not catching the omlette you tossed before it landed on your own head.

I once had a designer crying down the phone because I had "Compromised his artistic integrity" by altering his design to ensure that it was actually makeable, as opposed to a figment of an overactive imagination - Funny lot designers.

The diffuser will be allowed because McLaren don't have it.

#23 Dalek Caan

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 11:49

Originally posted by Zarathustra
How about Red Bull? If they can get a couple of tenths from this then that would make Vettel even more dangerous to Button


I have said all along that the big teams will overhaul BGP soon enough, BUT Button's fastest lap during the race in Malaysia was virtually 1 second faster than any other Brawn car, and was it 1.5s faster than the best non-DDD car?

It would seem I underestimated BGP, as their dominance at the moment is clearly no just because they have a DDD, it would seem they have maybe 0.6-1.0s in hand on Toyota in racetrim, and even more on any other team.

Vettel and Webber must be seen as a threat in qualifying and in the wet, but in normal circumstances I don't think they could live with Button at the moment.

#24 stonebutter

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 11:56

Does anybody on this board actually think this protest has a shot? They have been found legal by stewards twice, Brawn will certainly bring up that he proposed a clarification of the rules back in the beginning of 2008 to which the teams that have filed the complaint told him to toss off.

No way they will be found illegal.

BMW, Ferrari, Red Bull, etc are screwed. By the time they design and implement a proper DDD solution the season will essentially be over. Not to mention that they won't even be able to properly test it.

#25 Dalek Caan

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 12:03

To be honest, at some stage every team has to stop development and concentrate on 2010. Why would Ferrari and McLaren carry on spending heavily for the rest of 2009, just so they can finish up on the podium? It's a waste of time, money and resources. I know the politics at Ferrari might mean they have to carry on fighting for pride, but for McLaren certainly why don't they just do a 'Honda' and stop worrying about this season?

I know things can change pretty quickly, and BGP may be caught eventually soon, but only 1 team is going to do it, it won't be BMW/Ferrari/McLaren AND Renault. So 3 of them may as well give up. If they get left behind for 2010 as well then quite rightly heads will roll. Goodbye Thiessen. Goodbye Domenicali. Goodbye Whitmarsh. :wave:

#26 Rinehart

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 12:16

Originally posted by Bloggsworth
It would take a couple of days to make something - But then, that's not the same as making something that actually works properly and is a balanced part of the overall aerodynamic package.

The whole situation arose because designers are such a pig headed lot, just like racing drivers they have no respect for any opinion other than their own (I recall Peter Hull telling me that "Alan Jones couldn't drive a greasy stick up a dog's arse). Brawn clearly set out the rules for 2009 and they said no, we want our rules, so a fuzzy form of words which was agreed by all those with an input and allowed them to say "My ideas", so the ones with brains went away and drove a coach and horses through the gaps, now the teams that didn't think of it because they were so busy telling themselves that they were the cleverest are crying "foul!". Nothing like egg on your face to make you start trying to blame everybody else for not catching the omlette you tossed before it lands on your own head.

I once had a designer crying down the phone because I had "Compromised his artistic integrity" by altering his design to ensure that it was actually makeable, as opposed to a figment of an overactive imagination - Funny lot designers.

The diffuser will be allowed because McLaren don't have it.


Cracking collection of phrases in there fella, particularly 'couldn't drive a greasy stick up a dog's arse'. Brilliant.

#27 tkulla

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 12:17

"Doing a Honda" and concentrating on next year doesn't make sense, because next year's cars will be an evolution of this year's. The only major techincal change I know of is the refueling ban, which will make the fuel tank bigger. While that will certainly change the cars layout, the aero regs aren't likely to be much different (the double decker diffusers will probably be banned).

#28 Racing Dutchman

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 12:22

Originally posted by tkulla
"Doing a Honda" and concentrating on next year doesn't make sense, because next year's cars will be an evolution of this year's. The only major techincal change I know of is the refueling ban, which will make the fuel tank bigger. While that will certainly change the cars layout, the aero regs aren't likely to be much different (the double decker diffusers will probably be banned).

In contrary, the regulations for next years still aren't 100% clear, and you could get cuaght out again, just like Ferrari with their exhausts (which where fine according to rules up until a sudden change in september 2008 we never heard of)

#29 BugTomek

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 12:24

Originally posted by HP
Rubens diffuser broke in Melbourne with the start accident.

TBH I don't think that accident caused any serious damage to the diffuser. Rubens colorized things a little.

I wouldn't expect any team from non-dd-gang to introduce one before Spain, yet I would like to be wrong on that.

Q. Some team bosses are talking about a two-tier championship now – with the 'diffuser gang' and the non diffuser gang. Do you agree with that view?

SD: Well, that is pretty clear. It is pretty clear, but on that respect we have to wait and see what will be the decision on the 14th. And then we will see. For sure, you will see that the potential of that development, if you started as we know which happened very early last year for those cars, is enormous. I am expecting that even in the case that it is considered okay, we, and all the other teams who start working on that diffuser, we will not find immediately that kind of performance. It is just a matter of time that you need to work with certain pieces in the wind tunnel.

Q. So are you saying that you do not have a double decker diffuser ready to go in China?

SD: No. I can confirm that is not going to happen.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74325

#30 MPea3

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 12:29

Originally posted by Atic Atac


I heard that too. The commentators give that info based on talks with members of the team, or the test pilots, but what they say is mainly speculative.


And the opinions offered here aren't?

It's Formula One. The teams which aren't up to speed aren't "screwed", they just didn't do a good enough job.

#31 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 12:43

Originally posted by tkulla
"Doing a Honda" and concentrating on next year doesn't make sense, because next year's cars will be an evolution of this year's. The only major techincal change I know of is the refueling ban, which will make the fuel tank bigger. While that will certainly change the cars layout, the aero regs aren't likely to be much different (the double decker diffusers will probably be banned).


Is it not compulsory for all team to carry KERS next season and the teams using it this season have a better understanding of its negative effects?

#32 EvilPhil II

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 12:49

Originally posted by Handwashed
Would it be possible for teams such as Ferrari/McLiars/BMW to make their own new diffuser in a short space of time; then they could perhaps pose more of a threat to the Brawn cars? :blush:


By illegal I assume you mean legal?

However Renault have stated to me that they might be able to get one out in time for the next GP. Because there is no testing there is no need to 'try it out' before the race any longer. I would imagine others would like to design theirs possibly more thoroughly though and might take a little longer.

Ultimately its not going to be a quick fix for any of the other cars... they are simply too far behind.

#33 ForMules

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 12:55

Wouldn't be suprising to overcome the diffuser's problems, BGP is such poor team, that even toyota with DDD can match them!

the big 4 will come back very soon, the FIA has to clarify the KERS rules too, in ruling it a "must" in spain,
this would keep shitty cars as brawn toyota and others long runing laggars at the bay for the next 30 years!

#34 J2NH

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 12:57

Originally posted by Bloggsworth
It would take a couple of days to make something - But then, that's not the same as making something that actually works properly and is a balanced part of the overall aerodynamic package.

The whole situation arose because designers are such a pig headed lot, just like racing drivers they have no respect for any opinion other than their own (I recall Peter Hull telling me that "Alan Jones couldn't drive a greasy stick up a dog's arse). Brawn clearly set out the rules for 2009 and they said no, we want our rules, so a fuzzy form of words which was agreed by all those with an input and allowed them to say "My ideas", so the ones with brains went away and drove a coach and horses through the gaps, now the teams that didn't think of it because they were so busy telling themselves that they were the cleverest are crying "foul!". Nothing like egg on your face to make you start trying to blame everybody else for not catching the omlette you tossed before it lands on your own head.

I once had a designer crying down the phone because I had "Compromised his artistic integrity" by altering his design to ensure that it was actually makeable, as opposed to a figment of an overactive imagination - Funny lot designers.

The diffuser will be allowed because McLaren don't have it.


Great post Bloggswrth!

Having a new diffuser and having one that works are two different things. This is not a bolt on piece that automatically will generate more downforce at the rear of the car. It is all part of a balanced package. Lack of testing is going to make this tough.

#35 giltkid

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 13:08

I think Brawn will still be dominant until quite late in the season, perhaps being kept honest by odd wins from some of the other diffuser three (or perhaps RBR), Ferrari will come back fighting by seasons end. To me there seems to be a few parallels between Brawn now and Lotus in 1978.

#36 Timstr11

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 13:15

Briatore at it again..

He fails to mention RedBull Racing, their customer team.
Even without KERS and fancy diffuser, RBR are significantly faster than Renault (I do believe KERS has a small laptime advantage, BTW).
Now there you go Flav. That is something to think about.

#37 stevvy1986

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 13:19

Originally posted by ForMules
Wouldn't be suprising to overcome the diffuser's problems, BGP is such poor team, that even toyota with DDD can match them!

the big 4 will come back very soon, the FIA has to clarify the KERS rules too, in ruling it a "must" in spain,
this would keep shitty cars as brawn toyota and others long runing laggars at the bay for the next 30 years!


what an utterly pathetic post

#38 mariner

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 13:26

I admit to being old so I remember the days of aluminium but I find it utterly amazing that teams like McLaren with 700 or so staff cannot produce a new diffuser and install it within two months. If the double diffusers are that much better not having one means a complete season is wasted. How can a team not react quickly when millions of pounds of sponsors money and the motivation of the drivers is at risk?

Most of the teams have large in house carbon fibre fabrication facilities so the only long lead production item might be the gearbox IF that needs changing. Otherwise all the production is in house so once the designers say "here it is" production can start, be it the diffuser , the sidepods, the front wing or whatever.

Now it could be that the designers do not know what to design but that would imply that all they do not know the key design parameters even after thousands of hours of tunnel time and having some of the world's most powerful computers -- surely THAT could not be true?

#39 Timstr11

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 13:37

Originally posted by mariner
I admit to being old so I remember the days of aluminium but I find it utterly amazing that teams like McLaren with 700 or so staff cannot produce a new diffuser and install it within two months.

The days of spending your way out of a hole are over (for now).
Everybody is talking about testing restrictions, but even more important are this year's restrictions on the use of Windtunnel and CFD facilities to design and validate parts.
So even if you have the capacity, you cannot use it to the max.

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#40 tormave

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 13:43

Originally posted by Timstr11
Briatore at it again..

He fails to mention RedBull Racing, their customer team.
Even without KERS and fancy diffuser, RBR are significantly faster than Renault (I do believe KERS has a small laptime advantage, BTW).
Now there you go Flav. That is something to think about.

Read the entire article - he does mention that Vettel and Robert were the fastest cars behind the 5 DD diffuser ones in Q3 (fuel-adjusted). He's correct about it, by the way - Kubica, Webber, Vettel & Raikkonen had almost identical time in Q3, if you account for the fuel loads carried.

#41 Timstr11

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 13:45

Originally posted by tormave

Read the entire article - he does mention that Vettel and Robert were the fastest cars behind the 5 DD diffuser ones in Q3 (fuel-adjusted). He's correct about it, by the way - Kubica, Webber, Vettel & Raikkonen had almost identical time in Q3, if you account for the fuel loads carried.

He should wonder why the RBR is faster than the works renault team. That should be his main concern, instead of jappin about the 'diffuser teams'.

#42 alexbiker

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 14:10

Originally posted by Timstr11
The days of spending your way out of a hole are over (for now).
Everybody is talking about testing restrictions, but even more important are this year's restrictions on the use of Windtunnel and CFD facilities to design and validate parts.
So even if you have the capacity, you cannot use it to the max.


Has anyone come up with a logical suggestion of how to police CFD time - when I have to sign a declaration that my new desktop PC won't be used for military technologies, terrorism or communism so it can be exported from America, how would they stop a team doing things like SETI@home - buy massive, overspec systems for even the cleaner, then do background distributed work overnight?

The eternal rule applies - if you have a budget, you'll spend it.

#43 BugTomek

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 14:12

Originally posted by tormave

Read the entire article - he does mention that Vettel and Robert were the fastest cars behind the 5 DD diffuser ones in Q3 (fuel-adjusted). He's correct about it, by the way - Kubica, Webber, Vettel & Raikkonen had almost identical time in Q3, if you account for the fuel loads carried.

Actually it was Mario T. who said that in that article, not Flavio.

#44 Timstr11

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 14:16

Originally posted by alexbiker


Has anyone come up with a logical suggestion of how to police CFD time - when I have to sign a declaration that my new desktop PC won't be used for military technologies, terrorism or communism so it can be exported from America, how would they stop a team doing things like SETI@home - buy massive, overspec systems for even the cleaner, then do background distributed work overnight?

The eternal rule applies - if you have a budget, you'll spend it.

The last from FOTA (5 March 2009) on this is:

"Wind tunnel and computational fluid dynamics (CFD) use will be reduced based on a fixed ratio, meaning a team can trade in wind tunnel time for CFD time up to an overall limit."

The details were not published.

#45 alexbiker

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 14:18

Timstr11 - Yup - sounds pretty much unenforceable.

#46 FEB

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 14:58

Massa told do brazilian media that about monaco or istanbul they would have a ddd.


BR

#47 pac

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 15:40

Has anyone else heard the estimate of $30MM for Ferrari to come up with their own version of the "illegal" diffuser?

This was the number Bob Varsha used this weekend during F1 coverage on Speed Channel. He didn't mention a source for this estimate and I have yet to see any figures for what it might cost.

#48 Villes Gilleneuve

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 15:44

Originally posted by FEB
Massa told do brazilian media that about monaco or istanbul they would have a ddd.


BR


so what. they could have had it in Malaysia..won't help for stupid tactical errors.

I guess you guys don't watch the driver interviews..Barrichello stated that his diffuser was shattered on the start in Melbourne, and the car was just as fast.

Brawn is like a magician..he's misdirecting.

Everyone thinks the diffuser matters, and RBR is feeding that with "data" (c'mon..think...if the diffuser really meant 0.5 seconds, would Horner actually admit this?).

#49 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 16:06

1 Jenson Button Lap*18* 1:36.641 Pit*19* Car Weight 660.0kgs
2 Rubens Barrichello *17* 1:37.484 *20* 664.5
3 Jarno Trulli *12* 1:37.591 *17* 656.5
4 Nico Rosberg *13* 1:37.598 *15* 656.0
5 Mark Webber *14* 1:37.672 *16* 656.0
6 Sebastian Vettel *10* 1:38.427 *13* 647.0
7 Kimi Räikkönen *17* 1:38.453 *18* 662.5
8 Sebastien Buemi *16* 1:38.938 *21* 686.5
9 Fernando Alonso *17* 1:39.006 *22* 680.5
10 Nick Heidfeld *17* 1:39.084 *22* 692.0
11 Lewis Hamilton *17* 1:39.141 *22* 688.0
12 Sebastien Bourdais *17* 1:39.242 *19* 670.5
13 Felipe Massa *17* 1:39.250 *22* 689.5
14 Nelsinho Piquet *18* 1:39.268 *22* 681.9
15 Kazuki Nakajima *17* 1:39.387 *21* 683.4
16 Timo Glock Toyota *18* 1:39.406 *15* 656.5
17 Giancarlo Fisichella *16* 1:39.407 *18* 680.5
18 Adrian Sutil *17* 1:39.464 *18* 655.5

Forget what Raikkonen & Ferrari did, :rotfl: it really started to rain on lap 21 and the major players came in for rain tyres on lap 22. So by taking the fastest lap times of the front runners, updates or not, Button & Brawn when called upon basically have 1 second in their pocket compared to the best of the rest. :eek: You must all remember, apart from Glock & Nakijima because they were stuck behind traffic, if you say the tops cars are Brawn, RBR, Toyota & Williams, the top 7 drivers set their best times all in clear air. That would put Raikkonen and Ferrari a whopping 1.8 seconds behind Button. :eek: The car weights and when the pitted confirms that they had nothing left in reserve. :cry: I'm as optimistic as most Mclaren and Ferrari fans, if recent history is to go by. But for Mclaren at least, I think that gap is too much to breach to Brawn. That car is not just fast because of its difuser, its more than that. Buemi's time shows when Toro Rosso get to grips properly, they will be super fast. For the so-called BIG 4, Renault, BMW, Ferrari & Mclaren unless its a development package sent by the Gods, they all can forget about the WCC & WDC. :cry:

#50 Bayou Bengal

Bayou Bengal
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  • 134 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 06 April 2009 - 16:22

Originally posted by Bloggsworth
The diffuser will be allowed because McLaren don't have it.


But what about the opposite statement: The diffuser will be banned because Ferrari doesn't have it !