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Davvy Ryan - Suspended or sacked?


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#101 as65p

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 21:46

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
The FIA's farcical actions have left them no choice.


Well, I guess we'll never agree about those things... we're basically at the same point now with Ryan&McLaren vs. FIA as we were earlier with Hamilton vs. Ryan.

You always seem to take the stance that there can't anything be done about it, the supposedly less powerful party just has to bend over regardless.

I disagree, and there could even be made a stance that had Hamilton showed a bit of brain (and spine) we wouldn't even talk about all this.

I predict something similar with that slimey sack of Ryan by McLaren. It won't save them from the FIA's wrath, the whole course of action is simply too transparent for that. The only thing they achieved is to humilate themselves further.

Yet I still entertain that glimmer of hope that they didn't really fire him just like that, but that there is internally an understanding between Mclaren and Ryan, and some sort of compensation for the latter. Even then, he must feel like his whole working life thrown down the gutter.

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#102 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 22:06

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Nice on Max. You c**t. :mad:

yeah, Max fired Ryan..he also called him to lie

april 29 is still not too late for mercedes to chose another team for their focus....a team that would need a constructor behind and a team that is performing pretty good...

#103 Raelene

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 22:22

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Nice on Max. You c**t. :mad:


?????

How is McLaren using this guy as a scapegoat Max's fault???

Blame your team for their lack of ethics... not Max

#104 santori

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 22:23

Are we sure he was sacked? I've just read that they've parted company.

If he was sacked I'm having a hard time seeing the McLaren leadership as anything other than nine-sided bastards who deserve everything they get from the FIA (which is different from saying the same about McLaren, which doesn't).

#105 BrawnsBrain

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 22:41

The 'bastard' decision to sack Ryan is more to do with the way the system works, than the evil doing of any one particular individual.

#106 engel

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 22:45

Or firing him is just a way to keep him away from the WSC ;)

#107 BrawnsBrain

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 22:48

That hints at yet another conspiracy theory. Most of the time these theories are wrong.

What would Ryan reveal at the WSC?

Its obvious what happened in Australia, of more interest is of what happens on April 29th and why it is that the FIA seem so keen on dealing out further punishment to McLaren. The politics of McLaren versus the FIA are really bloody bizarre.

#108 engel

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 22:52

Originally posted by BrawnsBrain
That hints at yet another conspiracy theory. Most of the time these theories are wrong.

What would Ryan reveal at the WSC?

Its obvious what happened in Australia, of more interest is of what happens on April 29th and why it is that the FIA seem so keen on dealing out further punishment to McLaren. The politics of McLaren versus the FIA are really bloody bizarre.


No clue and wouldn't care to speculate. The FIA have directly or indirectly hinted that it wasn't just Lewis and Ryan involved in the mess ... And McLaren's wording had alarm bells all over it ...
"This afternoon McLaren and former sporting director, Dave Ryan, have formally parted company. As a result, he is no longer an employee of any of the constituent companies of the McLaren Group."

#109 Anomnader

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 22:54

Originally posted by Raelene


?????

How is McLaren using this guy as a scapegoat Max's fault???

Blame your team for their lack of ethics... not Max


I take it you had a lot off at Ferrari sacking of Stepney?

#110 scheivlak

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 23:00

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
The FIA's farcical actions have left them no choice.

So you think they have to bow even beforehand?
I think that would even be "politically" not very smart - it's a pretty early full admission of guilt and it gives a signal of humble submission. And it's just a too obvious way of scapegoating someone.
Unless of course it's part of a Mercedes/FIA deal already struck - which is quite possible.

But I have a problem believing that Ryan is the only or even the most crucial person to blame.

#111 Bob Nomates

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 23:04

Mosley likes dishing out the punishment to McLaren he gets off on it. He should just take Davy Ryan down to his torcher chambers for a spanking then we can all get on with it.

#112 Raelene

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 23:30

Originally posted by Anomnader


I take it you had a lot off at Ferrari sacking of Stepney?


????

how is that the same?

I didn't blame McLaren, I didn't blame the FIA

Stepney got the sack cause he wasn't trying to "protect" Ferrari, but to sell them out

How the hell can you compare??????

weird

#113 deedee

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 23:36

Davey Ryan was primarily sacked to help save Lewis Hamilton's butt.

#114 Rob

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 23:38

Originally posted by deedee
Davey Ryan was primarily sacked to help save Lewis Hamilton's butt.


Who's to say he was sacked? Maybe he resigned.

#115 Scaramanga

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 23:43

Originally posted by Rob


Who's to say he was sacked? Maybe he resigned.


:rotfl:

#116 Craven Morehead

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 23:46

what's so funny? It's entirely plausable

#117 deedee

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 23:48

Originally posted by Rob


Who's to say he was sacked? Maybe he resigned.


The latest news tell us that he indeed was sacked, fired, parted company or whatever you prefer to call it.

Interestingly he obviously was given a muzzle, or i missed something he said about the whole affair.

#118 Rob

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 23:53

Originally posted by deedee
The latest news tell us that he indeed was sacked, fired, parted company or whatever you prefer to call it.


The news says "parted company", which allows for a much wider variety of options than the first two in the list.

Who's to say he didn't resign out of shame? It's entirely plausible. It doesn't fit in with the scapegoat conspiracy theory that some are bandying about but it's equally as plausible.

#119 deedee

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 00:07

Originally posted by Rob


The news says "parted company", which allows for a much wider variety of options than the first two in the list.

Who's to say he didn't resign out of shame? It's entirely plausible. It doesn't fit in with the scapegoat conspiracy theory that some are bandying about but it's equally as plausible.


McLaren is acting in pure fear of Max using his infamous whip, so there is not much normal sense you can apply. Let's wait and see what the world council will do.

I bet, if either the team gets a considerable punishment or Lewis gets a ban, Whitmarsh is the next to "part ways".

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#120 JForce

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 00:09

It is ridiculous beyond belief that it took McLaren MONTHS to "part company" with Coughlan, but Dave Ryan can be gone in a week....

#121 engel

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 00:13

Originally posted by deedee


McLaren is acting in pure fear of Max using his infamous whip, so there is not much normal sense you can apply. Let's wait and see what the world council will do.

I bet, if either the team gets a considerable punishment or Lewis gets a ban, Whitmarsh is the next to "part ways".



That's not on the books, papers were served to McLaren not McLaren and Lewis Hamilton, Hamilton isn't accused of anything which needs to happen before he get punished :) ... unless it's an indirect punishment in the form of x races ban for the team, which I highly doubt.

#122 deedee

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 00:16

Originally posted by JForce
It is ridiculous beyond belief that it took McLaren MONTHS to "part company" with Coughlan, but Dave Ryan can be gone in a week....


I suggest the difference was, that the spygate was against the team, this time it is initiated by their favourite driver and Anthony Hamilton is famous for his furious reactions, so they had to act in a way, there was the threat of quitting F1 (to calm down Max and Bernie) and quitting the team, to enforce any action to save Lewis butt.

#123 paulm

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 00:33

Originally posted by JForce
It is ridiculous beyond belief that it took McLaren MONTHS to "part company" with Coughlan, but Dave Ryan can be gone in a week....

What's ridiculous about it?

Parting company with Dave Ryan means he doesn't have to appear at the WMSC and answer any difficult (for him or McLaren) questions.

It's a no brainer really.

#124 stevvy1986

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 00:36

yup JA has mentioned that on his site, which means that even if things did go higher up than Ryan, unless he goes to the WMSC meeting, they'll likely struggle to prove it, meaning less chance of McLaren being banned/thrown out etc

#125 Ricardo F1

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 01:21

Originally posted by Raelene
?????

How is McLaren using this guy as a scapegoat Max's fault???

The whole thing has been blown so entirely out of proportion it's untrue. Had ANYONE else in the pitlane done this it would have been, a "guys, what the hell were you thinking" wrap on the knuckles and on with the sport. McLaren has NO CHOICE but to fire Ryan as a show of action to the FIA.

#126 Menace

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 01:29

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
The whole thing has been blown so entirely out of proportion it's untrue. Had ANYONE else in the pitlane done this it would have been, a "guys, what the hell were you thinking" wrap on the knuckles and on with the sport. McLaren has NO CHOICE but to fire Ryan as a show of action to the FIA.


:confused:

Your really off on this one man... this is all Mclarens doing, and not by any stretch do I beleive any other team would receive any better treatment. It's about as scummy as it gets. Misleading is one thing, straight up lying to the stewards and letting Trulli get penalised for nothing, is not something I can easily forgive Mclaren. I hope FIA is not too drastic in its punishment, but boy has this been an embarassment to the Mclaren Group and by association Mercedes.

Throwing Ryan out to the wolves, is predictable but not what needs to happen. I think Whitmarsh has had his time expire. IMHO.

#127 senna da silva

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 01:31

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
McLaren has NO CHOICE but to fire Ryan as a show of action to the FIA.


McLaren should grow some onions and tell the FIA to go to hell!

#128 Kelateboy

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 01:32

Originally posted by alfa1
The FIA then proceeded to defame Honda in the media, referring to "secret compartments" in the standard fuel tank that a whole bunch of other teams also had. The FIA called the Honda team liars and cheaters because the fuel tank wasnt completely totally absolutely 100 percent empty.

Honda threatened to take this case to a real court, in the real world.
The FIA threatened to have then banned for as many years as it took to get a lengthy court case settled.
Honda backed down with tail between legs.

If the FIA are out to get you, there is nothing you can do about it.

What ulterior motives does FIA have in prosecuting Honda in the above case? I clearly remember this case back in 2005. It is all about minimum weight of the car, and Honda did not comply with this technical regulation.

Or is there something else to it?

-KB

#129 JForce

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 01:49

Originally posted by senna da silva


McLaren should grow some onions and tell the FIA to go to hell!


So they should lie to the stewards, then when they're told off they should give them the finger?

What a team....

#130 Raelene

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 01:49

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
The whole thing has been blown so entirely out of proportion it's untrue. Had ANYONE else in the pitlane done this it would have been, a "guys, what the hell were you thinking" wrap on the knuckles and on with the sport. McLaren has NO CHOICE but to fire Ryan as a show of action to the FIA.


wow - and you guys talk about conspiracy theories....

BTW - I think they should just get a slap on the wrist - or a suspended ban - but I do believe it should be investigated - McLaren seem to be slipping into a habit of hiding the truth....

#131 Ricardo F1

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 01:58

Originally posted by Raelene


wow - and you guys talk about conspiracy theories....

BTW - I think they should just get a slap on the wrist - or a suspended ban - but I do believe it should be investigated - McLaren seem to be slipping into a habit of hiding the truth....

:rolleyes:

#132 Ricardo F1

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 02:01

Originally posted by Menace


:confused:

Your really off on this one man... this is all Mclarens doing, and not by any stretch do I beleive any other team would receive any better treatment. It's about as scummy as it gets. Misleading is one thing, straight up lying to the stewards and letting Trulli get penalised for nothing, is not something I can easily forgive Mclaren. I hope FIA is not too drastic in its punishment, but boy has this been an embarassment to the Mclaren Group and by association Mercedes.

Throwing Ryan out to the wolves, is predictable but not what needs to happen. I think Whitmarsh has had his time expire. IMHO.

Trulli overtook Hamilton under a yellow flag. What f*ffing planet are you living on that he did nothing??? :lol: Didn't Trulli lie when he said "he had no choice" but to overtake Hamilton? Dave Ryan made a choice on behalf of McLaren Mercedes and because of the FIA making a massive stink has to lose his job after 35 years. Care to prove otherwise?

No other team would be dragged in front of the FIA for this. NONE.

#133 JForce

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 02:14

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Trulli overtook Hamilton under a yellow flag. What f*ffing planet are you living on that he did nothing??? :lol: Didn't Trulli lie when he said "he had no choice" but to overtake Hamilton? Dave Ryan made a choice on behalf of McLaren Mercedes and because of the FIA making a massive stink has to lose his job after 35 years. Care to prove otherwise?

No other team would be dragged in front of the FIA for this. NONE.


:lol:

Who cares? Really, the whole on-track part is now pretty much irrelevant. I was happy that Trulli was DQ'd for overtaking, until it turned out Hamilton let him past.

If it can be shown that Trulli did something wrong then DQ him, I'm fine with that.

BUT THEY LIED TO THE STEWARDS ABOUT IT.

THEN THEY LIED ABOUT LYING.

How much clearer can it be that this is a big deal? It's not a matter of perception, or of differing opinions, it's clear as day that they lied. There is a ton of evidence that they lied.

So they should go before the WMSC, and get a slap on the wrist for it. Since then they've been apologetic and Dave Ryan has been sacked and I think McLaren are taking it very seriously, so not much more needs to happen than that.

But to say that they shouldn't be told off is simply bias of highest order.

#134 senna da silva

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 02:33

Originally posted by JForce


So they should lie to the stewards, then when they're told off they should give them the finger?

What a team....


And you're as pure as the driven snow no doubt. :rolleyes:
They've been punished, everything else is bullshit.

#135 Ricardo F1

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 03:06

Originally posted by JForce
But to say that they shouldn't be told off is simply bias of highest order.

Not only have they been told off, they were disqualified from the GP! Why everyone has to fly to f*ffing Paris at great cost in a time where the FIA is supposedly being draconian about cost cutting is laughable.

#136 Lazarus II

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 04:31

Originally posted by JForce


:lol:

Who cares? Really, the whole on-track part is now pretty much irrelevant. I was happy that Trulli was DQ'd for overtaking, until it turned out Hamilton let him past.

If it can be shown that Trulli did something wrong then DQ him, I'm fine with that.

BUT THEY LIED TO THE STEWARDS ABOUT IT.

THEN THEY LIED ABOUT LYING.

How much clearer can it be that this is a big deal? It's not a matter of perception, or of differing opinions, it's clear as day that they lied. There is a ton of evidence that they lied.

So they should go before the WMSC, and get a slap on the wrist for it. Since then they've been apologetic and Dave Ryan has been sacked and I think McLaren are taking it very seriously, so not much more needs to happen than that.

But to say that they shouldn't be told off is simply bias of highest order.

There are plenty of precedents of teams or drivers lying to the FIA/stewards and what's been the result? at best a grid penalty or small fine.

Your hero being one of them - Rascasse ring a bell? how about Michelin's tires where Ross lied like a rug. Todt was so "economical with the truth" (what a bullshit term that is) he had no clue as to what was true and was wasn't. How about Benetton and that fuel filter, or launch control. "we don't have LC - oh that LC that's just for testing - it can't be activated from the cockpit - oh well we didn't know" :rotfl:

If I had a $1 for every lie told in the F1 pitlane I'd tell Bill Gates to get his arse the fvck out of my neighborhood.

#137 peroa

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 04:32

Originally posted by engel


No clue and wouldn't care to speculate. The FIA have directly or indirectly hinted that it wasn't just Lewis and Ryan involved in the mess ...


Yep, the FIA really like to hint, don`t they?

#138 black magic

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 06:20

and more to the point there is irrefutable evidence that they did lie having made fia look foolish by believing them

#139 stevvy1986

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 07:11

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Why everyone has to fly to f*ffing Paris at great cost in a time where the FIA is supposedly being draconian about cost cutting is laughable.


given the teams will be back in europe anyway, its hardly going to cost them much is it, especially with most teams being in britain-to say they have to fly there at great cost is an overstatement really,because the cost will be minimal,and absolutely peanuts compared to what they earn

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#140 peroa

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 07:14

Originally posted by stevvy1986


given the teams will be back in europe anyway, its hardly going to cost them much is it, especially with most teams being in britain-to say they have to fly there at great cost is an overstatement really,because the cost will be minimal,and absolutely peanuts compared to what they earn


Teams? Who`s talking about teams here.
It`s about these "gentlemen" here:

http://en.wikipedia....r_Sport_Council

They are all getting a free week in Paris at the FIA expenses. Maybe that`s why the drivers have to pay so much for their license ...

Free flight, free hotel rooms, free meals & booze, free escorts ...

#141 stevvy1986

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 07:17

so i got confused, so be it-it still isn't going to be 'at great cost' though

#142 plg101

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 07:18

Originally posted by stevvy1986


given the teams will be back in europe anyway, its hardly going to cost them much is it, especially with most teams being in britain-to say they have to fly there at great cost is an overstatement really,because the cost will be minimal,and absolutely peanuts compared to what they earn


Absolutely, one hour advice from a top barrister will pay for their flights/train...

What would the cost be to defend/support a case like this?

Internal Macca costs - hard to gauge, but Whitmarsh, Dennis, Company Sec, Internal Lawyer, + 2-3 others

External costs - one good barrister who knows FIA rules: £3k-£5k per day, for 30 days (to hearing etc); support staff at £1500 per day plus expenses

Reputation cost: hard the measure, but if they were a floated company you might expect 10-15% off the share price through the process until it was decided

= £300k external legal fees, probably £500k internally = £800k?

Bigger still is the "opportunity cost" - i.e. the progress Macca could make either in car (operational) or business development with those same internal people for the same time, which is probably much higher.

#143 peroa

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 07:19

Originally posted by stevvy1986
so i got confused, so be it-it still isn't going to be 'at great cost' though


We`ve had figures flying around from 2007. IIRC that wasn`t cheap, at all...

#144 ForeverF1

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 07:23

From Wiki
The World Motor Sport Council is the most powerful body of the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA). Its membership is chosen by the FIA General Assembly, which contains representatives from national automobile clubs (ASNs) throughout the world. It is one of two FIA World Councils; the other deals with matters such as tourism. The World Motor Sport Council meets three or four times a year to consider proposals from specialist FIA Commissions. It has a current membership of 26, including FIA President Max Mosley and Formula One commercial rights owner Bernie Ecclestone.



That's it, whether McLaren are guilty or not, they are stuffed!

Remember Bernie's outburst about holding a gun to his head? That was aimed at Ron Dennis with others. :

#145 plg101

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 07:27

Originally posted by plg101


Absolutely, one hour advice from a top barrister will pay for their flights/train...

= £300k external legal fees, probably £500k internally = £800k?

Bigger still is the "opportunity cost" - i.e. the progress Macca could make either in car (operational) or business development with those same internal people for the same time, which is probably much higher.


Actually, even a bag of fag packet calculation gives a range of £800k to £1.8m for the next 30 days.

#146 ensign14

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 08:05

Originally posted by black magic
and more to the point there is irrefutable evidence that they did lie having made fia look foolish by believing them

Well, we only have the FIA's evidence that McLaren lied and the FIA is hardly a shining bastion of truth. McLaren have prostrated themselves to stay in the Championship which gives the FIA carte blanche to throw the book at them. It's ludicrous that teams have not yet learned that the FIA's tactic is to get teams to plead guilty to something that carries a small penalty and then destroy them.

And the FIA's vendetta is, in part, due surely to the fact that the stewards' decision to penalize Trulli was known by the entire world to be farcical. The FIA doesn't like it when it's made patent to the world that its stewards have the intellectual curiosity of slime mould.

#147 as65p

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 08:25

Originally posted by ensign14

Well, we only have the FIA's evidence that McLaren lied and the FIA is hardly a shining bastion of truth. McLaren have prostrated themselves to stay in the Championship which gives the FIA carte blanche to throw the book at them. It's ludicrous that teams have not yet learned that the FIA's tactic is to get teams to plead guilty to something that carries a small penalty and then destroy them.

And the FIA's vendetta is, in part, due surely to the fact that the stewards' decision to penalize Trulli was known by the entire world to be farcical. The FIA doesn't like it when it's made patent to the world that its stewards have the intellectual curiosity of slime mould.


The underlined part points to the rest of the sentence being quite unlikely, IMO.

Is it really feasible that we all see through that supposed FIA tactic but nobody among the higly paid professionals at McLaren, including their lawyers, does? Hardly...

We have at least to consider the possibility that McLaren didn't just admit their guilt out of histerical fear and stupidity but because they know it can be proven with undeniable evidence.

I still firmly believe it hilarious that FIA is making such a big deal out of it and that indeed smacks of a witch hunt.

Yet to plead for McLarens complete innocence seems hilarious too.

#148 ensign14

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 08:35

Originally posted by as65p
Is it really feasible that we all see through that supposed FIA tactic but nobody among the higly paid professionals at McLaren, including their lawyers, does? Hardly...

Given my past dealings with McLaren's highly paid professionals...well, let's put it this way, I hope they've changed them in the last 5 or so years.

#149 as65p

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 08:42

Originally posted by ensign14

Given my past dealings with McLaren's highly paid professionals...well, let's put it this way, I hope they've changed them in the last 5 or so years.


:lol: that bad?

#150 Gareth

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 09:11

I think sacking him could be a very bad move. If more than just Ryan was involved but McLaren go to the WMSC and claim only Ryan was involved, with Ryan not being at the WMSC hearing on account of no longer being a McLaren employee, the WMSC will (in the absence of other evidence) probably conclude on the basis that he was not involved. They then have the perfect opportunity, in contacting Ryan, to discover new evidence to allow them to re-open the hearing and throw the book at McLaren.

"Dear Mr Ryan

You'll note the latest decision by the WMSC regarding McLaren, which is predicated on the basis that you and you alone lied and procurred that Hamilton lie. The FIA is concerned by your conduct and is considering issuing a letter to competitors in FIA championships suggesting, as with Nigel Stepney, that they do appropriate due dilligence on you before employing you. The FIA does not wish to do this, however, without you being given an opportunity to provide your side of the story and therefore invites you to provide your version of events in writing to the FIA. The FIA is, in particular, interested in knowing whether you did act entirely alone or whether, prior to the hearing in Australia, you discussed what to say to the stewards with anyone else within the McLaren team.

Should you feel unable to respond to this letter on account of being bound by any contractual obligations of confidentiallity to the McLaren team (whether as part of your previous contract of employment, an exit agreement from McLaren or otherwise), then please let us know and we will write to McLaren and request a written undertaking from them to not enforce such obligations against you in respect of information provided by you to us. Failure to provide such an undertaking will constitute a breach by McLaren of article 151© of the International Sporting Code on the grounds that preventing the WMSC from uncovering the full truth of this matter, through the enforcement of contractual terms, is prejudicial to the interests of motorsport.

We look forward to hearing from you.

The Spanish Inq .. err, sorry, the FIA."