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Davvy Ryan - Suspended or sacked?


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#151 plg101

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 09:14

Originally posted by Gareth
I think sacking him could be a very bad move. If more than just Ryan was involved but McLaren go to the WMSC and claim only Ryan was involved, with Ryan not being at the WMSC hearing on account of no longer being a McLaren employee, the WMSC will (in the absence of other evidence) probably conclude on the basis that he was not involved. They then have the perfect opportunity, in contacting Ryan, to discover new evidence to allow them to re-open the hearing and throw the book at McLaren.

"Dear Mr Ryan

You'll note the latest decision by the WMSC regarding McLaren, which is predicated on the basis that you and you alone lied and procurred that Hamilton lie. The FIA is concerned by your conduct and is considering issuing a letter to competitors in FIA championships suggesting, as with Nigel Stepney, that they do appropriate due dilligence on you before employing you. The FIA does not wish to do this, however, without you being given an opportunity to provide your side of the story and therefore invites you to provide your version of events in writing to the FIA. The FIA is, in particular, interested in knowing whether you did act entirely alone or whether, prior to the hearing in Australia, you discussed what to say to the stewards with anyone else within the McLaren team.

Should you feel unable to respond to this letter on account of being bound by any contractual obligations of confidentiallity to the McLaren team (whether as part of your previous contract of employment, an exit agreement from McLaren or otherwise), then please let us know and we will write to McLaren and request a written undertaking from them to not enforce such obligations against you in respect of information provided by you to us. Failure to provide such an undertaking will constitute a breach by McLaren of article 151© of the International Sporting Code on the grounds that preventing the WMSC from uncovering the full truth of this matter, through the enforcement of contractual terms, is prejudicial to the interests of motorsport.

We look forward to hearing from you.

The Spanish Inq .. err, sorry, the FIA."


Nice wording...

So, does anyone know, was he fired for "gross professional misconduct or similar" or has he exited under a compromise agreement?

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#152 fed up

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 09:16

Originally posted by Gareth
I think sacking him could be a very bad move. If more than just Ryan was involved but McLaren go to the WMSC and claim only Ryan was involved, with Ryan not being at the WMSC hearing on account of no longer being a McLaren employee, the WMSC will (in the absence of other evidence) probably conclude on the basis that he was not involved. They then have the perfect opportunity, in contacting Ryan, to discover new evidence to allow them to re-open the hearing and throw the book at McLaren.

"Dear Mr Ryan

You'll note the latest decision by the WMSC regarding McLaren, which is predicated on the basis that you and you alone lied and procurred that Hamilton lie. The FIA is concerned by your conduct and is considering issuing a letter to competitors in FIA championships suggesting, as with Nigel Stepney, that they do appropriate due dilligence on you before employing you. The FIA does not wish to do this, however, without you being given an opportunity to provide your side of the story and therefore invites you to provide your version of events in writing to the FIA. The FIA is, in particular, interested in knowing whether you did act entirely alone or whether, prior to the hearing in Australia, you discussed what to say to the stewards with anyone else within the McLaren team.

Should you feel unable to respond to this letter on account of being bound by any contractual obligations of confidentiallity to the McLaren team (whether as part of your previous contract of employment, an exit agreement from McLaren or otherwise), then please let us know and we will write to McLaren and request a written undertaking from them to not enforce such obligations against you in respect of information provided by you to us. Failure to provide such an undertaking will constitute a breach by McLaren of article 151© of the International Sporting Code on the grounds that preventing the WMSC from uncovering the full truth of this matter, through the enforcement of contractual terms, is prejudicial to the interests of motorsport.

We look forward to hearing from you.

The Spanish Inq .. err, sorry, the FIA."


I'm sure Mclaren and their team of very expensive lawyers have this one covered. Ryan, may have been sacked from the F1 team, but I'm gussing he is still involved with the group is some way or other. As he is no longer employed in motorpsort he does not come under the jursidiction of the FIA, so he doesn't even have to respond to them - unless, of course, he wants to carry on working in motorsport.

#153 ensign14

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 09:21

Originally posted by plg101

So, does anyone know, was he fired for "gross professional misconduct or similar" or has he exited under a compromise agreement?

Even if you were fired for misconduct there's a procedure to go through first. Almost certain he would have been compromised out. Surely they can't have got THAT wrong.

#154 plg101

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 09:25

Originally posted by ensign14

Even if you were fired for misconduct there's a procedure to go through first. Almost certain he would have been compromised out. Surely they can't have got THAT wrong.


And the process would take at least a week?

If you were summoned for a HR hearing, you would be entitled to "reasonable notice" which equates to at least 7 days (in my view)

Compromise makes sense, even if it means paying the rest of his years salary.

#155 Gareth

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 09:27

Originally posted by plg101


Nice wording...

So, does anyone know, was he fired for "gross professional misconduct or similar" or has he exited under a compromise agreement?

Regardless fo the reason, I'm sure they will have used a compromise agreement. Not least because McLaren will think the confidentiallity clauses will ensure he won't be able to tell his version, they will think they are therefore still in control of the version that gets presented to the WMSC. As my made up letter suggests, though, I think there are easy ways for the FIA to blow those clauses to one side.

Originally posted by fedup
I'm sure Mclaren and their team of very expensive lawyers have this one covered. Ryan, may have been sacked from the F1 team, but I'm gussing he is still involved with the group is some way or other. As he is no longer employed in motorpsort he does not come under the jursidiction of the FIA, so he doesn't even have to respond to them - unless, of course, he wants to carry on working in motorsport.

As mentioned above, I am sure they think they have it covered but I think that cover can disappear. You are right, though, that Ryan can't be compelled to give evidence. But if Ryan is sufficiently bothered about working in motorsport, or sufficiently disgruntled with Mac's treatment of him in sacking him and placing the blame solely on his shoulders, he could end up wanting to do so.

#156 ensign14

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 09:33

Originally posted by plg101
And the process would take at least a week?

I'm not an employment lawyer, but I can't imagine it would take less than that. There would be a formal hearing at which you could be represented. Evidence would have to be presented prior to that and there might be an appeals process.

Confidentiality cannot stop testimony, though.

#157 Gareth

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 09:35

Originally posted by ensign14
Confidentiality cannot stop testimony, though.

Testimony to a court, testimony to a contractually established arbitration or both?

#158 peroa

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 09:39

Originally posted by Gareth
I think sacking him could be a very bad move. If more than just Ryan was involved but McLaren go to the WMSC and claim only Ryan was involved, with Ryan not being at the WMSC hearing on account of no longer being a McLaren employee, the WMSC will (in the absence of other evidence) probably conclude on the basis that he was not involved. They then have the perfect opportunity, in contacting Ryan, to discover new evidence to allow them to re-open the hearing and throw the book at McLaren.

"Dear Mr Ryan

You'll note the latest decision by the WMSC regarding McLaren, which is predicated on the basis that you and you alone lied and procurred that Hamilton lie. The FIA is concerned by your conduct and is considering issuing a letter to competitors in FIA championships suggesting, as with Nigel Stepney, that they do appropriate due dilligence on you before employing you. The FIA does not wish to do this, however, without you being given an opportunity to provide your side of the story and therefore invites you to provide your version of events in writing to the FIA. The FIA is, in particular, interested in knowing whether you did act entirely alone or whether, prior to the hearing in Australia, you discussed what to say to the stewards with anyone else within the McLaren team.

Should you feel unable to respond to this letter on account of being bound by any contractual obligations of confidentiallity to the McLaren team (whether as part of your previous contract of employment, an exit agreement from McLaren or otherwise), then please let us know and we will write to McLaren and request a written undertaking from them to not enforce such obligations against you in respect of information provided by you to us. Failure to provide such an undertaking will constitute a breach by McLaren of article 151© of the International Sporting Code on the grounds that preventing the WMSC from uncovering the full truth of this matter, through the enforcement of contractual terms, is prejudicial to the interests of motorsport.

We look forward to hearing from you.

The Spanish Inq .. err, sorry, the FIA."


That`s as clear as blackmailing can get.

#159 Gareth

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 09:41

Originally posted by peroa


That`s as clear as blackmailing can get.

It's not blackmailing, it is giving Ryan an opportunity to present his side of the story as, if McLaren's story is correct, Ryan is a very naughty boy and the FIA, as a responsible governing body, ought to do something about that. McLaren trying to prevent Ryan giving his side of the story would be wrong.

Or at least that is how you could present/justify it ;)

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#160 plg101

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 10:12

Originally posted by Gareth

Testimony to a court, testimony to a contractually established arbitration or both?


Hmm, probably a grey area.

I suspect the FIA can push a position that that allows him to show his side of the story (with threat of a Stepney letter if he doesn't) and equally force Macca by reminding them of the penalties for bringing the sport into disrepute if they try and block any info from Ryan by contract

FIA could offer a closed hearing to Ryan, with his statement provided to a subgroup of the council, with them deciding if their was a material statement that then needed to be aired to the council as a whole?

#161 alfa1

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 10:12

Originally posted by Bluesmoke
Maybe he can then pursue another career envisioning himself as a God. :rotfl:



Lewis can take that photo to the WMSC hearing as proof that he cant be held responsible.
"See, I do anything stupid that the team tells me to do!"

Then if they can get Ryan to come along and take 100 percent of the blame, the rest of the McLaren team can maybe get away with a 100 million dollar fine as a warning to be more careful in future.

Ryan, because of his long involvement in F1 and rather excellent reputation, should find it hopefully not so difficult to get a job elsewhere. It'd stick it right up the FIA if Ferrari hired him next week. :)

#162 ensign14

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 10:32

Originally posted by Gareth

Testimony to a court, testimony to a contractually established arbitration or both?

To a court, but what does the arbitration agreement say? McLaren might have signed up to something that allows witnesses to be requested to attend.

#163 paulm

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:12

Originally posted by fed up


I'm sure Mclaren and their team of very expensive lawyers have this one covered. Ryan, may have been sacked from the F1 team, but I'm gussing he is still involved with the group is some way or other.


The McLaren statement explicitly said that he was no longer employed by _any_ company in the McLaren group.

Originally posted by fed up
As he is no longer employed in motorpsort he does not come under the jursidiction of the FIA, so he doesn't even have to
respond to them - unless, of course, he wants to carry on working in motorsport.


As James Allen pointed out, Ryan is no youngster. While I'm sure this isn't how he would have hoped to retire it may seem like a good idea now.

#164 paulm

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:14

Originally posted by alfa1
Lewis can take that photo to the WMSC hearing as proof that he cant be held responsible.


Has no one done a "Comical Ali" photoshop yet?

#165 Rob

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 12:19

Originally posted by JForce
It is ridiculous beyond belief that it took McLaren MONTHS to "part company" with Coughlan, but Dave Ryan can be gone in a week....


Which lends further credence to the theory that it was a resignation rather than a sacking. A resignation can be dealt with very quickly whereas a sacking takes a long time.

#166 as65p

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 12:27

Originally posted by Rob


Which lends further credence to the theory that it was a resignation rather than a sacking. A resignation can be dealt with very quickly whereas a sacking takes a long time.


Wich in turn, if FIA thinks along the same lines, would completely eliminate the desired effect to give the impression that McLaren nailed and dealt with the sole culprit for the whole desaster all on their own...

For Ryan's sake, I really hope that they parted in mutual agreement, but I really doubt it will help the teams case much.

#167 Bluenose

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 13:18

If Ryan has agreed to a compromise settlement, presumably it contains a confidentiality clause. Shame really as I would dearly like to know why he maintained to the bitter end that he had not lied. I doubt we'll get close at the WMSC hearing. The journalist, Maurice Hamilton, appeared supportive of Ryan at the time this all came out and was incredulous at the turn of events. I hope he digs further...

#168 Madeup Name

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 13:27

Originally posted by Rob


Which lends further credence to the theory that it was a resignation rather than a sacking. A resignation can be dealt with very quickly whereas a sacking takes a long time.

No, sacking can be instantanious in the case of gross misconduct or similar.

#169 ensign14

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 13:38

Originally posted by Bluenose

Best. Username. Ever.

#170 BrawnsBrain

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 13:56

Maybe I should change the title of the thread to Dave Ryan - Sacked or resigned? :lol:

We still don't know the truth - so much for F1 becoming more transparent and fan friendly.

Memo to USF1 - Coughlan, Stepney and Ryan - top talent available at bargain knockdown prices. Warning: may carry slight scuffs and minor damage.

#171 Slartibartfast

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 14:00

I hope Dave Ryan does choose to attend the WMSC hearing, assuming they invite him. As he is no longer a member of McLaren, he can't represent the team and, therefore, must be a 'witness' rather than 'defendant'. As the FIA appear to have effectively declared Hamilton to be in the clear, he too would presumably attend as a witness.

It seems bizarre that the two individuals accused by the stewards of 'deliberately misleading' them will not need to defend themselves, but will be free to say whatever they like. Ryan in particular could be a loose cannon. He could sink the McLaren ship with his testimony, but he could turn his fire on the stewards, FIA or Mosley. What if he claims that Hamilton was the instigator of the deception?

I have no idea how this will end, but I hope it proves entertaining enough to justify.

#172 Lazarus II

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 14:15

Just to feed the conspirarcy theorists. If others knew about this, I would imagine it went something like this.

McLaren: Dave we would first like to say thank you for your long a dedicated service to McLaren, however with the currents events surrounding your actions in Melbourne it's time for you to move on.

Dave: are you kidding me I'm being fired over this?

McLaren: well we're truely sorry Dave, however we understand you have a family and obligations that is why we have put together a very attractive exit package that will ensure you will be able to enjoy retirement for you and your family.

Done - Dave's happy, McLaren is assured of no Dave Ryan affadavit or any such speach/book/what-have-you.

#173 senna da silva

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 14:20

Originally posted by ensign14

Best. Username. Ever.


A fan of Canadian racing schooners?

#174 ensign14

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 14:25

Originally posted by senna da silva
A fan of Canadian racing schooners?

Say what now?

#175 senna da silva

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 14:48

Originally posted by ensign14
Say what now?


The Bluenose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluenose

#176 Bluenose

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 15:06

Originally posted by ensign14
Say what now?


Rather more prosaic actually - a rabid Evertonian - sorry it's not more exotic :)

#177 ensign14

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 15:11

Originally posted by Bluenose


Rather more prosaic actually - a rabid Evertonian - sorry it's not more exotic :)

No, they're the Toffees. Even wikipedia has it right from an English perspective.

#178 BrawnsBrain

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 23:21

Originally posted by Slartibartfast
I hope Dave Ryan does choose to attend the WMSC hearing, assuming they invite him. As he is no longer a member of McLaren, he can't represent the team and, therefore, must be a 'witness' rather than 'defendant'. As the FIA appear to have effectively declared Hamilton to be in the clear, he too would presumably attend as a witness.

It seems bizarre that the two individuals accused by the stewards of 'deliberately misleading' them will not need to defend themselves, but will be free to say whatever they like. Ryan in particular could be a loose cannon. He could sink the McLaren ship with his testimony, but he could turn his fire on the stewards, FIA or Mosley. What if he claims that Hamilton was the instigator of the deception?

I have no idea how this will end, but I hope it proves entertaining enough to justify.


That's probably why McLaren sacked him. A paid off witness is rather less damaging than keeping the accused in the organisation. Whitmarsh has been politically astute, whilst commercially and PR-wise it's just damage limitation - the best they could hope for.

But on a personal level it's damaging to team moral and an awful cowardly smearing of Ryan's career.

That's what you get for 35 years loyal service I guess.

#179 engel

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 23:30

you neglect to account for the possibility of a gagging order ... *if* McLaren fired him to keep him away from the WMC I m sure they could afford to pay him an extra couple of mil compensation to get his signature on a gagging order

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#180 deedee

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 04:18

Originally posted by engel



That's not on the books, papers were served to McLaren not McLaren and Lewis Hamilton, Hamilton isn't accused of anything which needs to happen before he get punished :) ... unless it's an indirect punishment in the form of x races ban for the team, which I highly doubt.


With the FIA WMSC you never know, their decisions can be very hard to foresee as you know.

I do not expect Hamilton being punished any further, even lewis did not have a single word of apology towards Jarno or Toyota. He probably forgot some of Matt Bishop's script while memorizing it the night before. The only goal was to put all the blame on someone else. Neither was Lewis Hamilton sincere nor did he take a plea of guilty, but ok, it suits the Hamilton's character perfectly.

I'm sure Max would like to ban the team for several races or exclude it for the whole 2009 season. But Bernie certainly will prevent McLaren from an exclusion verdict, because that could trigger unpredictable events in F1.

So, in this situation i guess the WMSC's verdict will be no ban, but a heavy fine and some probation or points deduction.

It's funny how the Hamiltons think they could easily switch to another team. I doubt any serious team-boss would even consider hiring a FIA-certified liar and premium backstabber together with his troublesome "manager".

#181 paulm

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 04:55

Originally posted by deedee
It's funny how the Hamiltons think they could easily switch to another team. I doubt any serious team-boss would even consider hiring a FIA-certified liar and premium backstabber together with his troublesome "manager".


You're kidding yourself then.

Alonso didn't have _toooo_ much trouble finding a seat after leaving McLaren and he'd hardly been a model employee. Nor would it be difficult to name other 'difficult' (though talented) drivers who continued to get drives.

#182 Ricardo F1

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 05:06

He's kidding himself on multiple counts. Like believing he has a brain. :D

#183 peroa

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 05:57

Originally posted by paulm




Alonso didn't have _toooo_ much trouble finding a seat after leaving McLaren and he'd hardly been a model employee.


What a seat he got, really top notch.
:rolleyes:

No, he didn`t have tooo much trouble because daddy B kept one warm for him. What if there wasn`t daddy B around?

#184 paulm

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 06:22

Originally posted by peroa


What a seat he got, really top notch.
:rolleyes:

No, he didn`t have tooo much trouble because daddy B kept one warm for him. What if there wasn`t daddy B around?


Stop making yourself look silly. A quick search will reveal Ross Brawn saying that Alonso's 'turbulent' time at McLaren wouldn't discourage him.

Perhaps Ross Brawn isn't a "serious team boss" though. :rolleyes:

#185 plg101

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 07:33

Originally posted by engel
you neglect to account for the possibility of a gagging order ... *if* McLaren fired him to keep him away from the WMC I m sure they could afford to pay him an extra couple of mil compensation to get his signature on a gagging order


A gagging order would be worth nothing if the FIA took the stance that it was to suppress information relevant to bringing the sport into disrepute. Legally binding, and would potentially protect him in a court of law, but the FIA could threaten Macca with a worse fine/ban if they used the gag excuse?

#186 engel

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 07:59

Originally posted by plg101


A gagging order would be worth nothing if the FIA took the stance that it was to suppress information relevant to bringing the sport into disrepute. Legally binding, and would potentially protect him in a court of law, but the FIA could threaten Macca with a worse fine/ban if they used the gag excuse?


The FIA has no jurisdiction on somebody that doesn't work in an FIA regulated team. They can't "threaten" much nor can they compel Ryan to go to the hearing and tell them about the gagging order, it would be there to ensure Ryan doesn't voluntarily go and give evidence :)

#187 as65p

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 09:27

Originally posted by peroa


What a seat he got, really top notch.
:rolleyes:

No, he didn`t have tooo much trouble because daddy B kept one warm for him. What if there wasn`t daddy B around?


Well, if there would have been no seat at Renault he would likely sit in a Brawn now, so you better should be eternally thankful to daddy B. :D

#188 deedee

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 15:33

Originally posted by paulm


You're kidding yourself then.

Alonso didn't have _toooo_ much trouble finding a seat after leaving McLaren and he'd hardly been a model employee. Nor would it be difficult to name other 'difficult' (though talented) drivers who continued to get drives.


This here is about Lie-Gate, if you already forgot. Please refrain from comparing real personalities with FIA-certified little, lying pricks.

As a special reminder for you anywaqy:

Fernando Alonso was betrayed and screwed by McLaren-Mercedes in 2007 and was finally robbed the WDC in 2007.

F1 Team-bosses know very well what happened with Fernando and McLaren. Everyone who is really comparing the McLaren scapegoat Fernando Alonso (besides Coughlan) with the Baron of Lies, Lewis Hamilton, cannot be taken seriously.

Cheers

#189 mclarensmps

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 15:42

You can't be taken seriously with a post like that :lol:

#190 potmotr

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 16:42

Originally posted by deedee

Fernando Alonso was betrayed and screwed by McLaren-Mercedes in 2007 and was finally robbed the WDC in 2007.


When he wasn't sulking, being paranoid of throwing tantrums including kicking down doors of the McLaren office after qualifying at the Chinese Grand Prix that year...

Originally posted by deedee


F1 Team-bosses know very well what happened with Fernando and McLaren.


Yes, they do. Which is why neither Ferrari or BMW took up the chance to sign him for 2009.

#191 john ruston

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 17:31

Mr Ryan was not the most loved of people by people who worked at Mclaren so he will not be missed by his old colleagues.Seems they were not suprised by the initial problem nor by subsequent action.

#192 potmotr

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 17:32

Originally posted by john ruston
Mr Ryan was not the most loved of people by people who worked at Mclaren so he will not be missed by his old colleagues.Seems they were not suprised by the initial problem nor by subsequent action.


Really? More information please.

#193 MinT

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 17:32

Originally posted by deedee


This here is about Lie-Gate, if you already forgot. Please refrain from comparing real personalities with FIA-certified little, lying pricks.

As a special reminder for you anywaqy:

Fernando Alonso was betrayed and screwed by McLaren-Mercedes in 2007 and was finally robbed the WDC in 2007.

F1 Team-bosses know very well what happened with Fernando and McLaren. Everyone who is really comparing the McLaren scapegoat Fernando Alonso (besides Coughlan) with the Baron of Lies, Lewis Hamilton, cannot be taken seriously.

Cheers


Some very powerful Alonso tinted specs you have there, where did you buy them ?

#194 BMW_F1

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 17:38

he probably got them from Luca Montezemolo..

Montezemolo: team cost Alonso the title

#195 deedee

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 18:27

Originally posted by potmotr


Yes, they do. Which is why neither Ferrari or BMW took up the chance to sign him for 2009.


Ferrari had 2 drivers already signed for 2009, did you miss that ?

BMW was not a real option for Fernando (and BMW), since that contract had been for 1 year only anyway. Fernando is driving the F1 Ferrari of 2011 and if Kimi has a poor season like 2008, Alonso will have the Ferrari seat already in 2010.

Don't cry, Lewis might dock at Force India or maybe Torro Rosso, should McLaren-Mercedes get banned.

#196 LostProphet

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 19:23

Originally posted by deedee


This here is about Lie-Gate, if you already forgot. Please refrain from comparing real personalities with FIA-certified little, lying pricks.

As a special reminder for you anywaqy:

Fernando Alonso was betrayed and screwed by McLaren-Mercedes in 2007 and was finally robbed the WDC in 2007.

F1 Team-bosses know very well what happened with Fernando and McLaren. Everyone who is really comparing the McLaren scapegoat Fernando Alonso (besides Coughlan) with the Baron of Lies, Lewis Hamilton, cannot be taken seriously.

Cheers


My god. Bitter much? :rolleyes:

#197 potmotr

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 19:27

Originally posted by deedee



Don't cry, Lewis might dock at Force India or maybe Torro Rosso, should McLaren-Mercedes get banned.


I think you'll be first! :lol:

#198 Ricardo F1

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 21:02

Originally posted by deedee
As a special reminder for you anywaqy:
Fernando Alonso betrayed and screwed McLaren-Mercedes in 2007

Edited for accuracy. :)

#199 potmotr

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 21:17

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Edited for accuracy. :)


:clap:

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#200 TheD2JBug

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 21:31

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
I love personally attacking other posters on here


fixed.