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Who's got the best KERS?


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Poll: Who's got the best KERS? (113 member(s) have cast votes)

  1. Mercedes (81 votes [71.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 71.68%

  2. BMW (8 votes [7.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.08%

  3. Renault (14 votes [12.39%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.39%

  4. Ferrari (10 votes [8.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.85%

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#1 KiloWatt

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 12:33

Obviously the output is limited to 400kJ, but in terms of powerdelivery, compactness, weight and efficiency. Specifically talking efficiency, it may well develop 400kJ, but perhaps only 380kJ ever reaches the road in a lap. The rest being dissipated through friction, electrical losses, etc.

I'm unsure how one would judge this, though. We've only seen 2 races. Well, 1.5 actually, but still... Everyone is hyping the Merc one, but I think it's the only one we've really had the opportunity to see at work because a lot of attention is neccesary given to Hamilton and Kova has this nasty tendancy to not complete the first lap. His duel with Webber springs to mind. Impressive that...

Anyway, can anyone think of a few cases where we've seen the BMW one at work? Or the Ferrari one or the Renault one, for that matter? My memory dissapoints me, yet again.

The flip side is that the Merc one really is that good (or the others that bad), that it is the only one we've seen to make a difference.

Needless to say, if anyone reading this has some inside info, now would be an excellent time to spill...

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#2 fnz

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 12:39

I think we saw Renaults KERS working well when Glock was chasing Alonso in Melbourne, he "complained" about not being able to overtaking pure due the fact Alonso used his KERS.

But i ve no technical information backing up any facts about who's got the best KERS

#3 pRy

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 12:41

Brundle claimed on Sunday that McLaren has the best one.. and after how easily Hamilton was able to pass Webber on the straights.. he might have a point. It was quite amusing to hear the engine notes go mental after he pressed his kers button. You could really hear the boost.

#4 Frixos

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 12:41

I would have to pick Renault though. Alonso hanged by the skin of his teeth in Malaysia, and I believe the saving grace was his talent AND his KERS (using it defensively, and probably at the start).

btw, no inside info here, pure opinion. :)


As for the McMerc KERS...whether its good or not, I am not seeing results if you know what I mean....

#5 fnz

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 12:43

@prY: Did Brundle gave any facts to back up his claim? (not that i don't believe him, i just want to know some facts)

#6 Clatter

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 12:43

We have certainly seen footage of KERS being used by KR, and also breaking. NH? He always seems to be invisible in the race.

#7 pRy

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 12:47

Originally posted by fnz
@prY: Did Brundle gave any facts to back up his claim? (not that i don't believe him, i just want to know some facts)


Not really but after seeing Hamiltons onboard, you were in no doubt about how good it was. It was like he had access to an extra gear.

#8 fnz

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 12:50

Perhaps my question is a little bit offtopic but I would like to know how much the R29 struggles under breaking due to it's KERS. (i think we can all agree we saw Alonso struggling under breaking bigtime last weekend)

#9 Racing Dutchman

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 12:52

Dear god, have you actually seen the last 2 races?

Putting Ferrari as an option :eek:

#10 KiloWatt

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 13:09

Originally posted by Racing Dutchman
Dear god, have you actually seen the last 2 races?

Putting Ferrari as an option :eek:


:lol:

Yeah, but surely their brutal starts didn't escape you. If it did, you wouldn't do justice to your avatar.

#11 wingwalker

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 13:20

I don't think with in a position to judge the performance of it. Ferrari sure have reliability problems, but performance depends on how it works with the engine, engine itself, overall grip and balance of the car.. it's difficult to extract KERS from it and judge it by itself.

#12 Owen

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 13:24

Maybe another poll could be: is it actually worth having KERS?

#13 primer

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 13:41

They all seem equally effective/ineffective to me. :p
And next year teams are going to be using a standard KERS......

#14 wingwalker

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 13:44

I think weight limit will be raised in 2010, not even because of being fair heavier drivers but more to actually have any benefit of what will be a mandatory system. It already looks pretty silly, hundreds millions of dollars spent on development and it's actually better to put 30 kg's of ballast into the car.

#15 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 13:46

Originally posted by wingwalker
I think weight limit will be raised in 2010, not even because of being fair heavier drivers but more to actually have any benefit of what will be a mandatory system. It already looks pretty silly, hundreds millions of dollars spent on development and it's actually better to put 30 kg's of ballast into the car.

there are more ways to make it work....you could increase the time allowed for kers or the maximum power delivered from the unit.

#16 wingwalker

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 13:48

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

there are more ways to make it work....you could increase the time allowed for kers or the maximum power delivered from the unit.


Maximum power will be raised too, from what I remember. But I think best and easiest solution to solve ballast issues is simply raise the weight limit, it's puzzling why it wasn't done already. (I think BMW and other top teams thought it's not necessary... WRONG)

#17 metz

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 13:50

Originally posted by Clatter
. NH? He always seems to be invisible in the race.

Good old Nick "Where-did-he-come-from?" Heidfeld.
The BMW KERS is not as good as expected.
Robert will not use it. (I know the driver weight issue)
By using his system, Heidfeld did manage to hold up Vettel and Hamilton for the first 8 laps last race.
But once they went bye, they were gone. Both much faster. (I know about the fuel weight issue).
It's hard to judge the BMW KERS system. Robert has used it in testing and finds it a detriment.
Nick claims that it is not a help at all, but he is used to it now, and might as well stay with it.
With the BMW Sauber being the 5th fastest car on the grid, it's hard to say what is actually working.
But the main indicator is that Robert had a great race in Melbourne WITHOUT the thing.
For an outfit that insisted on KERS while others didn't want it, BMW look silly. (Owen is right)
I'd say;
Mclaren - the best
Renault - also good
Ferrari - reliability problems
BMW - lacks performance

#18 ZooL

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 14:56

Lewis has been starting from the back with relatively light fuel loads and a car taht has decent race pace but slow quali. This impression this gives their KERS is the best but in reality they all deliver the same power and only differ in size and weight. I bet they can all discharge the full power in 6.7 seconds.

Running at the front and perception of a better KERS is decreased as the cars become closer to performance that KERS cannot make a difference and its uselfulness decreases.

So unless we have the weight and size of these devices, they are all the same in performance terms. The KERS performance rules are too rigidly written for them to be different.

#19 ZooL

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 15:10

Ferrari and Renault use the same KERS.

Also it was Alonso's KERS that launched from 9th to 3rd of the grid.

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#20 Buckethead

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 15:16

I think I say Renault. In Malaysia you could really see how great it was. Alonsos superb start with heavy car. Good defending with KERS. Passing Webber in straight thanks to KERS (lost it in braking). Allthou I don't know, car seems to be strugling pretty much under braking.. :

#21 Anomnader

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 17:07

Originally posted by ZooL
Lewis has been starting from the back with relatively light fuel loads and a car taht has decent race pace but slow quali. This impression this gives their KERS is the best but in reality they all deliver the same power and only differ in size and weight. I bet they can all discharge the full power in 6.7 seconds.
.

erm, Two races,race one Lewis was one of the lightest, Race two, Lewis was one of the heaviest.

#22 Ricardo F1

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 17:17

McLaren. Doesn't seem to be an option though. :

#23 Scaramanga

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 18:27

I was under the assumption that everyone except Mclaren, BMW, and William(possibly soon) is using Magneti Marelli's KERS system.

Quote Mark Webber:
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/69547

By the looks of it, eight of the ten teams are going for Magneti Marelli with KERS, McLaren and BMW are doing their own thing.


Renault and RedBull will be using Magneti Marelli's KERS system:
http://www.itv-f1.co...e.aspx?id=45087

Ferrari presumably are as well (BTW Magneti Marelli is a FIAT subsidiary) :
http://blogf1.co.uk/...s-in-australia/
But they tested three devices during the winter:
http://www.autoblogg...g/ferrari kers/

Force India is going to use the same system as Ferrari (and presumably Toro Rosso will use the same system as Ferrari and RedBull) :
http://formula-1.upd...KERS-/view.html

During testing Toyota was fitted with Magneti Marelli's KERS system:
http://www.racecar-e...009-toyota.html

#24 MichaelPM

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 18:34

Originally posted by Buckethead
I think I say Renault. In Malaysia you could really see how great it was. Alonsos superb start with heavy car. Good defending with KERS. Passing Webber in straight thanks to KERS (lost it in braking). Allthou I don't know, car seems to be strugling pretty much under braking.. :

Yea it might be good for discharging power but seems to have issues with the storage and management systems when it comes to braking so it cannot be the best. McLaren's must be at least as powerful and braking seems very stable.

Ferrari...

BMW dose not seem to make much of an impact.

#25 KiloWatt

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 22:04

Originally posted by ZooL
Lewis has been starting from the back with relatively light fuel loads and a car taht has decent race pace but slow quali. This impression this gives their KERS is the best but in reality they all deliver the same power and only differ in size and weight. I bet they can all discharge the full power in 6.7 seconds.

Running at the front and perception of a better KERS is decreased as the cars become closer to performance that KERS cannot make a difference and its uselfulness decreases.

So unless we have the weight and size of these devices, they are all the same in performance terms. The KERS performance rules are too rigidly written for them to be different.


Although mostly true, I don't think they're all delivering the same energy (as opposed to developing the same energy), as I alluded to in my opening post. When one thinks of, say, an electric motor the input electrical power may be 6kW, but the motor only ever produces a maximum of 5.5kW mechanical power. The 500W is lost to mechanical and electrical losses.

Likewise, depending on implementation, the device may "gather" 400kJ from the rear axle, but due to losses it can perhaps only deliver 380kJ to the drive wheels. Say team A's KERS delivers 350kJ per lap and team B's KERS delivers 390kJ per lap, then team A will have 60kW for only 5.8 seconds while team B will have 60kW for 6.5 seconds. I'm pretty sure it's significant.

Does anyone know wether the rules say the device can only recover 400kJ per lap or discharge 400kJ per lap? If the former, there may be some scope yet for performance gains. :

#26 bankoq

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 22:15

McLaren by a mile. BMW's weakest one.

#27 Nobody

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 22:26

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
McLaren. Doesn't seem to be an option though. :


:up:

#28 Lazy Prodigy

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 22:39

I cant say who it is because not everybody has one. People are saying McLaren and Reno have a better KERS because they passed a car (Mark Webbo I guess) without KERS which really isnt a surprise.

As far as I see it can't be Ferrari because they have problems with it and BMW look slow with it. Macca and Reno look good and Alonso seems to have been higher up in the field to fight with better cars so Id say its Reno.

#29 Anomnader

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 23:56

Originally posted by Lazy Prodigy

Macca and Reno look good and Alonso seems to have been higher up in the field to fight with better cars so Id say its Reno.


In both races the Mercedes has qualified behind the Renault but finished in front on the track.

#30 Pilla

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 01:38

I thought the KERS was made by Mclaren Electronics and not by Mercedes?

#31 HoldenRT

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:07

Originally posted by fnz
I think we saw Renaults KERS working well when Glock was chasing Alonso in Melbourne, he "complained" about not being able to overtaking pure due the fact Alonso used his KERS.

But i ve no technical information backing up any facts about who's got the best KERS

Glock also couldn't get by Alonso in Sepang. Webber got past him in the first opportunity (first lap once Kimi had gotten by).

The politics of it is funny. Kubica says KERS is good and cites Alonso vs Glock at Sepang as example. Heidfeld says it isn't much advantage. :lol:

McLaren and Renault's seem good. You have to wonder how much it's hurting the braking though. If I could pick one it'd be McLaren's but do you also have to use their bulky sidepods? :p

Definately not Ferrari, and pretty hard to comment on BMW's. Haven't seen it put to use yet in a race situation with onboards and a battle.

Lewis put it to really good use in Melbourne. There was one pass into the fast chicane in S2, where you NEVER see overtakes into there, and he overtook easily with minimal risk.

#32 HoldenRT

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:11

Originally posted by Scaramanga
I was under the assumption that everyone except Mclaren, BMW, and William(possibly soon) is using Magneti Marelli's KERS system.

Quote Mark Webber:
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/69547


Renault and RedBull will be using Magneti Marelli's KERS system:
http://www.itv-f1.co...e.aspx?id=45087

Ferrari presumably are as well (BTW Magneti Marelli is a FIAT subsidiary) :
http://blogf1.co.uk/...s-in-australia/
But they tested three devices during the winter:
http://www.autoblogg...g/ferrari kers/

Force India is going to use the same system as Ferrari (and presumably Toro Rosso will use the same system as Ferrari and RedBull) :
http://formula-1.upd...KERS-/view.html

During testing Toyota was fitted with Magneti Marelli's KERS system:
http://www.racecar-e...009-toyota.html

Williams are developing their own mechanical flywheel solution.



#33 raiseyourfistfor

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:11

Actually Mclaren's sidepods are not any more bulky then BMW's, or RBR/Toro Rosso's sidepods.

#34 Lazy Prodigy

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:13

Originally posted by Anomnader


In both races the Mercedes has qualified behind the Renault but finished in front on the track.

Yes in strange races... with saftey cars and rain

#35 HoldenRT

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:17

Originally posted by raiseyourfistfor
Actually Mclaren's sidepods are not any more bulky then BMW's, or RBR/Toro Rosso's sidepods.

:eek:

Yes they are, especially towards the rear suspension but also all over. Someone posted a side by side pic from Sepang of the RB5 and McLaren in the MP4-24 topic.