118 replies to this topic

[dabrasco]

“The teams could leave tomorrow morning”

Former Canadian Grand Prix promoter Normand Legault believes Formula One teams should abandon the FIA and Bernie Ecclestone. The 53-year-old told the French language La Presse newspaper that FOTA, the teams' new unified alliance, is their ticket to shedding the sport's current outdated structure.

Legault revealed that, shortly before the Formula One Teams Association was enacted, he made a presentation to the teams in Montreal. "I said to them 'why don't you reorganise yourselves like a North American sports league? When the (Montreal) Canadiens play the Boston Bruins, they don't ask the International Hockey Federation to referee the match.” "In the world of North American pro sports, each league has a board of governors, a commissioner and vice Presidents who manage the business.

The owners of the sport manage themselves.” "The National Hockey League doesn't have to ask anyone if it wants to increase the size of the net by six inches," he exclaimed.

Legault said the winds of change are already blowing, and a recent example of this is the recent flexing of muscles between the teams, the FIA and commercial rights holder Ecclestone over the scoring system.

The rest of the article is here

http://en.f1-live.co...408173402.shtml


do you think what he is proposing is feasible and how many of you fans will support such a move?

I personally will and cant wait....tired of all the FOM, FIA shenanigans and politics destroying the sport

[rdebourbon]

I've said it for ages... the teams should be controlling the sport together - benefitting from the rights as the american leagues do it..

FOTA should listen, and listen carefully - they have all the data on what the fans want.. at the end of the day the brand "Formula 1" would be a lot weaker without Ferrari / Mclaren / Williams...

[Owen]

The impossible dream... if only

[undersquare]

If only they would. Can't understand what they're so afraid of. Get rid of the leeches and the corrupt governance in one go.

[BMW_F1]

the question is are the teams "together" willing to break away from the FIA and perhaps form their own series.. ?

I doubt it..

BMW/Toyota/Renault can care less if Mosley has a vendetta against mclaren or not..

[Beef Eater]

It does not work in the real world.

First of all, they would have to organize their own FIA... and all over again.

[alg7_munif]

They should start with a weekly meeting to discuss things.

[rdebourbon]

Originally posted by BMW_F1
the question is are the teams "together" willing to break away from the FIA and perhaps form their own series..

I doubt it.. BMW/Toyota/Renault can care less if Mosley has a vendetta against mclaren or not..

They may not care about Max vs ________ but they care about Bernie withholding $$$$$ for whatever reason.. If the reports are accurate and Bernie gets a massive 50% of all commercial rights for "administration" - that in itself is a very significant sum of money that could be used to put all the teams in a much better financial standing.

[united]

Who will provide BDSM-extravaganza then?

[BMW_F1]

Originally posted by rdebourbon


They may not care about Max vs ________ but they care about Bernie withholding $$$$$ for whatever reason.. If the reports are accurate and Bernie gets a massive 50% of all commercial rights for "administration" - that in itself is a very significant sum of money that could be used to put all the teams in a much better financial standing.

than that's another issue totally unrelated to LIEGATE.

I dare suggest the teams have more information about Bernie's earnings than what's being reported or speculated on internet forums.

[ensign14]

The teams could break away and form their own series. They might need FIA approval just for things like insurance. But the manufacturers need to keep the FIA sweet, surely?

[alg7_munif]

FOTA won't be FOTA without FOM and FIA because Formula One won't be Formula One without FOM and FIA. I agree that they should leave and create a new series but it is difficult since the name Formula One is the most important thing.

[undersquare]

Originally posted by BMW_F1
the question is are the teams "together" willing to break away from the FIA and perhaps form their own series.. ?

I doubt it..

BMW/Toyota/Renault can care less if Mosley has a vendetta against mclaren or not..

No but they probably care about ze war being brought up, about kers, standard kers, £30m spec competitors, the DDD fiasco, and incompetent stewards.

[engel]

I feel Formula 1 needs somebody independent to run the sporting side of things, I m not a big believer in the notion that the teams can self regulate ... call it FIA call it whatever you want.

I do agree that FOM or the entity that manages F1's commercial side should be part owned by the teams though. I d have no problem with say Bernie owning 30% of it and the teams 70% (after all like him or not he did bring the commercial side of F1 into the 21st century) but no way should he own it all outright for 100 years at the cost of what? 300m?

[Atreiu]

I really wish they would do that.
If you got a lawnmore race with one called Ferrari and the other McLaren, you'd have a crowd to watch it.

[rdebourbon]

Originally posted by BMW_F1


than that's another issue totally unrelated to LIEGATE.

I dare suggest the teams have more information about Bernie's earnings than what's being reported or speculated on internet forums.

The original article is not specific to liegate - and I'm sure the teams have more information about what Bernie earns..

My point was that, while BMW / Toyota / etc may not care about Mosleys apparent vendetta with Mclaren - they have shareholders, and those shareholders are concerned with the bottom line figures.. The option to earn more money from the sport, would be an attractive one to any team...

Personally, I can't help but think that if Max / Bernie continue with their suggestions for a split teir series, and the £30M budget caps - it is purely a matter of time before FOTA consider their options elsewhere and start a new series centered around what their survey results indicated - in terms of an initial set of regulations - the current regs, or any past regs could be taken as a solid starting point - its not as if they would have to reinvent everything...

[dabrasco]

the Formula One name isnt that important....pple will think it is at the beginning sure...but they just need to find a simple catchy name and i give it 2 years at most b4 people resign the Formula One name to history.

Whats important is having the major teams there....Ferrari,BMW, Mclaren, Williams, Renault etc

Premier League did it, and look where they are now in terms of revenue, sporting etc...

there is a difference in factors, but there is no reason they cant do Bernies job, and do it much better....I really hope theyve already set up an exploratory committee or so and just keeping it on the low till they can finalize it.

Another factor against them is the current unstable financial climate, but its gonna get better, and probably why they need to take control of their future and revenues more.....50% for Bernie is ridiculous

Its like a manager or management company of a celebrity getting 50% for services...

[J]

And the link to the full interview is here...

http://forums.autosp...threadid=107656

-J

[BMW_F1]

Originally posted by undersquare


No but they probably care about ze war being brought up, about kers, standard kers, £30m spec competitors, the DDD fiasco, and incompetent stewards.

BMW is very happy about KERS being introduced into F1 so your problem for this to happen is that ALL the teams cannot speak under a single voice.

[BMW_F1]

Originally posted by rdebourbon


The original article is not specific to liegate - and I'm sure the teams have more information about what Bernie earns..

My point was that, while BMW / Toyota / etc may not care about Mosleys apparent vendetta with Mclaren - they have shareholders, and those shareholders are concerned with the bottom line figures.. The option to earn more money from the sport, would be an attractive one to any team...

Personally, I can't help but think that if Max / Bernie continue with their suggestions for a split teir series, and the £30M budget caps - it is purely a matter of time before FOTA consider their options elsewhere and start a new series centered around what their survey results indicated - in terms of an initial set of regulations - the current regs, or any past regs could be taken as a solid starting point - its not as if they would have to reinvent everything...

I really doubt manufactures emptying up a bucket load of money to form a new racing series. They would simply leave F1 and go to LeMans.

[undersquare]

Originally posted by dabrasco
the Formula One name isnt that important....50% for Bernie is ridiculous

Its like a manager or management company of a celebrity getting 50% for services...

I agree, as long as it's on free-to-air TV on Sundays and has Ferrari, LH and the rest of them that's all that will matter.

And the 50% is mainly to service a loan secured on F1, let's not forget, the money itself has long gone - into the bank accounts of private equity fatcats who have nothing to do with the sport. Walking away is the blindingly obvious way for the teams to unburden themselves, it's -$2.5 bn. Talk about cost-cutting, even Toyota would notice that much money.

[rdebourbon]

Originally posted by BMW_F1


I really doubt manufactures emptying up a bucket load of money to form a new racing series. They would simply leave F1 and go to LeMans.

Perhaps.. but we can all live in the eternal hope that someone will do something about the present structure ;-)

For some reason though, I have a hard time seeing Mclaren / Ferrari / Williams competing in LeMans as they do in F1.. *shrugs* maybe its just me...

[undersquare]

Originally posted by BMW_F1


BMW is very happy about KERS being introduced into F1 so your problem for this to happen is that ALL the teams cannot speak under a single voice.

How do they feel about standard kers? P*ssed I think.

And are you really saying they all have to agree about every single thing before they can start a new series?

[engel]

Originally posted by undersquare


How do they feel about standard kers? P*ssed I think.

And are you really saying they all have to agree about every single thing before they can start a new series?

Well they need to agree on most things don't they? Else we 'll be happy for a year then start bitching that the big 3 (that will presumably have some form of extra powers) are killing the smaller teams / keeping them uncompetitive and just around to make up the numbers etc etc.

Besides, how would a league run by the teams on the sporting side deal with something like stepneygate? Or another big issue involving 2 big teams that are also "shareholders" in the enterprise that regulates them.

[SCHUEYFAN]

I've written this before, and of course F1 should be modelled after the major North American sports franchises, their success and growth has been incredible the last 20 years and can work for F1. The problem is though the name Formula One. Max has said before the teams can leave but they will have to create their own name, the FIA can only recognize one F1 championship and they own the name.

What the teams must do is seriously threaten to leave the sport and to essentially blackmail CVC to sell the rights to the teams. Surely all the teams combined can come up with $2.3bn to buy out those vampires, they can either raise the funds publicly (bad) or get the money privately (good) through a joint corporation with shares owned equally by the teams. It wouldn't be difficult since the business model will support such and expenditure given the revenue streams. The problem though is how will the teams agree to equal ownership? Ferrari surely will be difficult to come on board since they get additional income under the current Concorde deal. Also, how do you govern the new entries? You'll essentially have to sell them a franchise in exchange for ownership and immediate rights to the revenue pot. Bernie has already said he wants twenty teams qualifying for twelve spots, but those days from the 80's are long gone and will never return in my opinion. We'd be all happy if 12 healthy teams can show up every weekend and make a good go of it. It can be done but I'm not so sure there is enough unity in FOTA to make this giant leap. There will be pain in the short term, but if they can control all the revenue then they stand to make bags more money in the long run, and more importantly have some stability in the rules. This nonsense of Max changing them every year is insane, let the teams continue on their spending cuts, they'll get down to 100m in 2010 and this combined with them owing the series is more than enough to ensure EVERY team is profitable.

[alg7_munif]

Formula GP would be a nice name for the series. The series should be governed by a board with representatives from each team and GPDA should also be involved with the governing.

[rdebourbon]

Originally posted by engel


Well they need to agree on most things don't they? Else we 'll be happy for a year then start bitching that the big 3 (that will presumably have some form of extra powers) are killing the smaller teams / keeping them uncompetitive and just around to make up the numbers etc etc.

Besides, how would a league run by the teams on the sporting side deal with something like stepneygate? Or another big issue involving 2 big teams that are also "shareholders" in the enterprise that regulates them.

The way I see it working, and correct me if it sounds ludicrous is that each team would have an *EQUAL* share in the newly created "management company"..

The money from rights would be paid out in 2 tiers:
1 - a flat "dividend" for said shareholding in management company - fixed and equal per team.
2 - a % "dividend" based on WCC points accumulated over the course of the season.

The "management company" would be appointed as an "independent" judical party, with the shareholders (the teams) all having no legal sway in judical matters, this management company would be charged with passing judgement in cases that breach the sporting code set out by all parties.

Taking on extra new teams, would be a matter of redistributing shares to accomodate the new teams, while team sellouts would be a "share transfer"...

[undersquare]

Originally posted by engel


Well they need to agree on most things don't they? Else we 'll be happy for a year then start bitching that the big 3 (that will presumably have some form of extra powers) are killing the smaller teams / keeping them uncompetitive and just around to make up the numbers etc etc.

Besides, how would a league run by the teams on the sporting side deal with something like stepneygate? Or another big issue involving 2 big teams that are also "shareholders" in the enterprise that regulates them.

I think the teams do agree over most things. The disagreements arise from bad rule-making and lack of consistency. Look at the money being thrown away on kers and DDD's.

They just need to set up a governing body that is independent race-to-race but accountable over the seasons. It wouldn't be difficult to improve on Max's corrupt little empire - currently doing everything it can to create friction among the teams.

[Lazarus II]

Come on FOTA grow some nads and oust these pricks. Bring F1 back to its former glory instead of this polemic bullshit. All the action is off the track.

No one here is actually sure who won the first two GP's yet
that says it all to me.

[Darth Sidious]

FOTA can't create their own series as FOM ( I think) own the rights to the trademark name Formula One. As FOTA stands for Formula One Teams Association they would have to disband and reform under another name....

...like FARTA, Formula America Racing Teams Association. It could then be called the 'World Series Of Racing' much like all other American sports are called World Serieses which would give it instant US credibility.... or even WORMS - World Of Racing Motors Series. I do like the ring of that.

[J]

Originally posted by ensign14
The teams could break away and form their own series. They might need FIA approval just for things like insurance. But the manufacturers need to keep the FIA sweet, surely?

You think the manufactorers series wouldn´t get insurance without help of the FIA? I don´t think so..

If there is another series, surely it would be with a complete break from the current structure?

-J

[Lazarus II]

Originally posted by Darth Sidious
FOTA can't create their own series as FOM ( I think) own the rights to the trademark name Formula One. As FOTA stands for Formula One Teams Association they would have to disband and reform under another name....

...like FARTA, Formula America Racing Teams Association. It could then be called the 'World Series Of Racing' much like all other American sports are called World Serieses which would give it instant US credibility.... or even WORMS - World Of Racing Motors Series. I do like the ring of that.

The name isn't important, the show is. If they have a competitve series with no (ok, fewer) backroom shinnaigans the fan base will grow beyond the present slipping fan base. What's the FIA going to do without serious manufacture support? get old Hart engines? The teams (especially the manufactures) hold the cards. Ferrari is a major draw as well, they are a FOTA team. Their fan base spans beyond F1 and motorsports. Yes they need F1 (or a premier racing aeries), but F1 needs them too.

[undersquare]

Originally posted by J


You think the manufactorers series wouldn´t get insurance without help of the FIA? I don´t think so..

If there is another series, surely it would be with a complete break from the current structure?

-J

Ensign's post reminds me there was a rumour that Max brought BMW into line over something by threatening the NCAP rating of the new 5-series. It's not just F1 or even motorsport. But they could deal with that surely, one way or another.

[J]

Originally posted by undersquare


Ensign's post reminds me there was a rumour that Max brought BMW into line over something by threatening the NCAP rating of the new 5-series. It's not just F1 or even motorsport. But they could deal with that surely, one way or another.

That´s the rumour. But it was a suprise attack on BMW by the FIA. Now it would be the FOTA vs. FIA.

I had a feeling during the spankgate, when Mosley was firing on all directions, that the manufacturers realised that they are not governed responsibly, and that they need to get their act together about it.

In any case: If FOTA decides to go full scale war and set up their own championship, they would have to means to destory the FIA. Is a full scale war something that in necessary, or possible at the current financial climate, is another question.

-J

[Lazarus II]

Originally posted by undersquare


Ensign's post reminds me there was a rumour that Max brought BMW into line over something by threatening the NCAP rating of the new 5-series. It's not just F1 or even motorsport. But they could deal with that surely, one way or another.

That seems simple enough (from a simpleton's POV )
- call them out on the bluff by telling the world they are blackmailing you
- at the same time release videos of your new vehicle's crash tests and compare that directly to the competitions in a major worldwide marketing campaign.
- tell Max publicly to kiss your arse and you will not be held hostage by a useless pompous self agrandizing dickwad.

[lustigson]

IIRC, FOM does not own the rights to 'Formula 1' or 'Formula One', so that might not be too much of a problem.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by J

You think the manufactorers series wouldn´t get insurance without help of the FIA? I don´t think so..

I'm just thinking about things like circuit approval being a factor in insurance cover. Who approves if the FIA withdraws its co-operation?

[Rosemayer]

Originally posted by rdebourbon


The original article is not specific to liegate - and I'm sure the teams have more information about what Bernie earns..

My point was that, while BMW / Toyota / etc may not care about Mosleys apparent vendetta with Mclaren - they have shareholders, and those shareholders are concerned with the bottom line figures.. The option to earn more money from the sport, would be an attractive one to any team...

Personally, I can't help but think that if Max / Bernie continue with their suggestions for a split teir series, and the £30M budget caps - it is purely a matter of time before FOTA consider their options elsewhere and start a new series centered around what their survey results indicated - in terms of an initial set of regulations - the current regs, or any past regs could be taken as a solid starting point - its not as if they would have to reinvent everything...

When you can I would highly suggest to get your hands on this book The Piranha Club: Power and Influence in Formula One by Tim Collings its a real good read and a eye-opener.

available COPIES

The Piranha Club: Power and Influence in Formula One
by Timothy Collings

About this title: 'Welcome to the Piranha Club!' Ron Dennis (head of McLaren) to Eddie Jordan on the inception of the Jordan team. The Piranha Club is the first serious study of Formula One's most intriguing and influential figuras - the men who wield the real power. Author Tim Collings has written an entertaining and incisive analysis of the Formula One paddock, explaining how it works, who runs it, how it makes money and what sort of people exist there. Formula One hardly needs selling. It has massive television audiences worldwide and huge crowds at all the race tracks. It oozes colour, drama and glamour, not to mention money. It is the meeting point of sport, commerce, showbusiness, and gossip with technology, the automotive industry and big-time international politics. You are as likely to share a table for lunch in the paddock with Liz Hurley, Naomi Campbell or Michael Douglas as with a politician, a royal or a pop singer. The place is tumbling with intrigue and interest. It is run like clockwork and the guys who run it are the most intriguing of all. Bernie Ecclestone and Max Moseley, Luca di Montezmolo, Alain Prost and Jackie Stewart, Ron Dennis, Frank Williams, Eddie Jordan and the rest.They are from all sorts of backgrounds, but they share the common interest of Formula One motor racing - and finding a way of making money successfully. These high rollers are big people Control-freaks, racers, corporate power brokers and ego-trippers. All different. All drugged by the speed of the business.

[Atreiu]

Originally posted by ensign14

I'm just thinking about things like circuit approval being a factor in insurance cover. Who approves if the FIA withdraws its co-operation?

I'm sure there are plenty of competent people out there who can approve a circuit. It's no black magic to walk around looking out for the run-offs, guardrails, bumps, hazardous issues, etc...

edit: if anything, get help form former pilots form other categories. What could the FIA ever do to them?

[Blythy]

http://www.autosport...cle.php/id/2088

that article suggests that CVC and FOM have a lot more to lose if the teams split from F1 as it stands. However as teams are under contract with FOM, they'll fight to the bone to save themselves if the teams split. It would be bloody.

although I'd definately want a different owner to F1, the ticket costs for F1 are far too fvcking much.

[CrushedDreams]

Originally posted by BMW_F1


than that's another issue totally unrelated to LIEGATE.

I dare suggest the teams have more information about Bernie's earnings than what's being reported or speculated on internet forums.

WHO said anything about your beloved liegate? Not everything is about your obvious epicaricacy when it has anything to do with Mclaren.

[J]

Originally posted by Blythy
http://www.autosport...cle.php/id/2088

that article suggests that CVC and FOM have a lot more to lose if the teams split from F1 as it stands. However as teams are under contract with FOM, they'll fight to the bone to save themselves if the teams split. It would be bloody.

although I'd definately want a different owner to F1, the ticket costs for F1 are far too fvcking much.

Are the team under contract with the FOM? The Legault interview suggests otherwise.

-J

[BMW_F1]

Originally posted by undersquare



And are you really saying they all have to agree about every single thing before they can start a new series?

to start a new series.. yes.. it would be a power struggle. I just don't see it happening.

[alfa1]

Originally posted by alg7_munif
...is difficult since the name Formula One is the most important thing.

Not really. If they have Ferrari and something like "Grand Prix Racing", thats plenty enough.

[J]

Which one would you follow:

GP2 branded as F1, or series with name other than F1, but with all the current teams and drivers?

-J

[Blythy]

Originally posted by alfa1



Not really. If they have Ferrari and something like "Grand Prix Racing", thats plenty enough.

There's three teams that are pretty much essential to the history of the sport - williams, ferrari and mclaren. Everyone else is pretty much a transient team. - Of those renault and toyota the oldest at 8 years (including this one). (granted toleman and benneton were before them, but still) (Brawn 1 year, RB 5 years, STR 4 years, FI 2 years, BMW 4 years)

Therefore by my reasoning - F1 is not F1 unless it contains Ferrari, Williams and Mclaren.

[ATM_Andy]

Originally posted by lustigson
IIRC, FOM does not own the rights to 'Formula 1' or 'Formula One', so that might not be too much of a problem.

Yes, the FIA own Formula 1. It's actually officially called the 'FIA Formula One World Championship'.

[alfa1]

Originally posted by Blythy
Therefore by my reasoning - F1 is not F1 unless it contains Ferrari, Williams and Mclaren.

Oh fair enough. In my mind, I hadnt even questioned the possibility of other teams NOT jumping ship if Ferrari goes. I cant imagine that Ferrari would quit and go to a FOCA "Grand Prix Racing" series, but McLaren (and Williams) stay behind with Max and Bernie.

[BMW_F1]

isn't Todt inline for taking the FIA presidency. ?

[J]

Originally posted by ATM_Andy


Yes, the FIA own Formula 1. It's actually officially called the 'FIA Formula One World Championship'.

IIRC, FIA owns the "FIA formula one world championship" but not the "Formula one" itself.

Here´s a link: http://en.wikipedia....16/F1_trademark

-J