85 replies to this topic

[Dooly Tilly]

Let's be realistic here, Bernie isn't going to be very happy at the prospect of Button winning every race of the season and wrapping up the championship by the end of the summer. And with things the way they are now, that is what's likely to happen.
It is therefore obvious that, rightly or wrongly, the diffuser that is controversial and is giving the Brawn cars an advantage, will be declared illegal. I don't think the results from previous races will be changed, but they will just decide that from the next race onwards the diffuser has to be changed; similar to what happened with Renault's mass-damper system in 2006.
BrawnGP may well still end up with the fastest car, but it'll at least set them back a bit and will probably allow the others to close the gap, thus resulting in a closer championship fight.
There is no doubt in my mind that this is what will happen.

[krapmeister]

One of the various possibilities that may come out of the appeal hearing - lots of people with a dog in this race, and not just the teams...

Whatever you think may happen, may not happen...

[Frans]

They will not be banned and the race after the hearing ALL teams will have such a diffuser.

[Dalek Caan]

My gut feeling is the diffuser will be banned. The FIA want a close Championship and will do everything within their power to manipulate it as such.

[Tenmantaylor]

The season will be much more interesting watching the others catch up than see the DD teams get crippled.

[Szoelloe]

I think it will not be banned.

[EvilPhil II]

I dont think this is to do with Brawn. This is going to be to do with Toyota. They have 4 cars on the grid affected by this and are threatening to walk from F1. I can assure you that the DDD will remain or be banned from 2010.

[TickTickBooom]

How many threads do we need on this one topic?

It won't be banned. Come Spain, everyone will have a trick diffuser. Brawn will still have 0.5 in their pocket.

[Traction]

I don't think it will be banned. I think Bernie et al like the idea of the more traditional teams having to play catch up while the less well funded teams (ie Brawn & Williams) try to sustain their advantage throughout the season. In my view it could be potentially very exciting towards the end of the season once the likes of Ferrari and McLaren have got their act together, we could see a number of teams fighting for victory.

It also does no harm for the sport to see the order shuffled for a season or two and from what we are hearing they have no grounds to ban it anyway.

[Gareth]

Don't know what the position is in the rest of the world, but apparently viewing figures in the UK are up massively. A large part of that will be revised start times and some actual racing going on, but I think another part of it is the Brawn story and having unherelded teams (rather than the usual suspects) at the front. So I don't think Bernie will necessarily think that the success of Brawn et al is bad for the commercial side of the sport.

[Owen]

Originally posted by TickTickBooom
How many threads do we need on this one topic?

It won't be banned. Come Spain, everyone will have a trick diffuser. Brawn will still have 0.5 in their pocket.

In full agreement

[button_sw]

I don't think they will ban the DDD''s just for the sake of making the championship a bit closer. The fact that all of the non DDD teams are making their own versions indicate to me that they were not clever enough in the first place to think of it themselves and they know deep down that they are within the rules.

My guess is that the FIA will close the loophole for 2010 so there is no "grey area" to exploit.

And for the record when Trulli pitted on Sunday Button's 1st lap in clear air was 1 second quicker than the Toyota which has a DDD so there is much, much more than just the diffuser that is making the BGP01 quicker than every other car. I reckon it's only worth 2 tenths max, all of this 0.7 second differnce is rubbish and will soon be proved, It's not a bolt on part for a quick fix.

Brawn, Williams and Toyota have been clever, the other teams have not

[ForeverF1]

Originally posted by Owen


In full agreement

Me too, if only for the involvement that Honda have had in all forms of motor sport. F1 is not the "be all and end all" of motorsport.

[Broadway]

I can not see how they can ban it. A new diffuser is a huge change on the car and I think it might even be necessary to make new crash tests. I don't think they should ban it either, because it is legal to the letter of the rules. If the diffuser is banned, I think the DDD cars will have to miss a couple of races and both Bernie and Max would be slaughtered by angr mobs. Come think of it - I think I hope for a ban

[prty]

It's said that Brawn will have an aero update in Spain worth a full second so who KERS, they'll walk it anyway. And it probably won't be banned, IIRC Bernie's money is in the team, and two of the three difusser teams are now private teams, so Max won't get it banned either.

[BorisTheBlade]

A full second? Were did you get that from? All I read was around 3-5 tenths.

[roadie]

Originally posted by button_sw
I don't think they will ban the DDD''s just for the sake of making the championship a bit closer. The fact that all of the non DDD teams are making their own versions indicate to me that they were not clever enough in the first place to think of it themselves and they know deep down that they are within the rules.

My guess is that the FIA will close the loophole for 2010 so there is no "grey area" to exploit.

And for the record when Trulli pitted on Sunday Button's 1st lap in clear air was 1 second quicker than the Toyota which has a DDD so there is much, much more than just the diffuser that is making the BGP01 quicker than every other car. I reckon it's only worth 2 tenths max, all of this 0.7 second differnce is rubbish and will soon be proved, It's not a bolt on part for a quick fix.

Brawn, Williams and Toyota have been clever, the other teams have not

I think this hits the spot. Bravo.

[prty]

A bald source and PDLR, they also said they think it was too much gain and we have to wait for the real benefit on track, but the word in the paddock is that. With Brawn all the "too good to be true" performance stories have been true until now so why not.

[button_sw]

I heard that they have some new fancy sidepods worth about 0.3 seconds but until we see it on track we will not know exactly how much it will give them. Ross has already stated that they have some pretty big developments for Spain and the rest of the season.

It will be funny when McLaren and Ferrari turn up in Spain with a major upgrade worth 0.7 and Brawn with their updates match or better and it and will still be over a second ahead of them!

[MWM]

Won't be banned.

I agree with the premise that the FIA are inclined to make decisions that result in a closer championship, so I think it's down to intepretations of likely outcomes of banning or not banning.

My reckoning is that by not banning, the teams with bigger budgets will close the gap to Brawn, and by the end of the season may be quicker. Even without on-track testing, more money surely means greater ability to exploit wind-tunnels and CFD methods.

Banning diffusers will simply mean the richer teams catch up quicker. That said, I think the Brawn is quick for multiple reasons, not simply the diffuser.

[Rob]

It has already been declared legal by two sets of scrutineers. The FIA should not change the rules mid-season.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Rob
It has already been declared legal by two sets of scrutineers. The FIA should not change the rules mid-season.

Problem is that it has never stopped them before. We had an obscene ruling made over the TMD, so I'm expecting the DDD to be banned as moveable ballast.;)

[Rob]

Originally posted by Clatter


Problem is that it has never stopped them before. We had an obscene ruling made over the TMD, so I'm expecting the DDD to be banned as moveable ballast.;)

It'll be banned as a moveable aerodynamic device, as it is attached to a moving vehicle.

[UPRC]

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
The season will be much more interesting watching the others catch up than see the DD teams get crippled.

Agreed 100%. Brawn, Toyota, and Williams found something that the other teams did not in the rules. They should not be punished because the others weren't clever enough in their designs or did not read into the rules as closely.

[Timstr11]

Originally posted by MWM
Even without on-track testing, more money surely means greater ability to exploit wind-tunnels and CFD methods.

This hasn't sunk it yet with many people, but there are restrictions on the use of wind-tunnels and CFD these days. You can't run both 24/7 as rich teams used to.

[rayyu882]

I think Bernie would love Button to win the title this year, he loves to have another new world champion! Unless Button win every races by a lap, otherwise it's fine the way it is...

[Bi-Polar Bear]

Originally posted by Dalek Caan
My gut feeling is the diffuser will be banned. The FIA want a close Championship and will do everything within their power to manipulate it as such.

That one statement encapsulates all that is wrong with Formula One racing in its present form.

[Szoelloe]

Originally posted by Bi-Polar Bear


That one statement encapsulates all that is wrong with Formula One racing in its present form.

No, it encapsulates all that is wrong with Dalek. The FIA does not give a ..... about a close championship, some hard feelings from MM towards 1-2 teams, yes, but a close championship? They don't care.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally posted by ForeverF1


Me too, if only for the involvement that Honda have had in all forms of motor sport. F1 is not the "be all and end all" of motorsport.

I can't see the OP, but I still agree.

[Ferrim]

Originally posted by TickTickBooom
How many threads do we need on this one topic?

It won't be banned. Come Spain, everyone will have a trick diffuser. Brawn will still have 0.5 in their pocket.

It will be banned. Come Spain, no one will have a trick diffuser. Brawn will still have 0.5 in their pocket.

Not so sure about Toyota or Williams...

[Broadway]

Originally posted by Timstr11
This hasn't sunk it yet with many people, but there are restrictions on the use of wind-tunnels and CFD these days. You can't run both 24/7 as rich teams used to.

I guess wind tunnels can be polized, but CFD? Maybe it is difficult to run 100% CFD 24/7 (on the official super computers), but you can put pretty decent CPU power in a cellar somewhere. Or in a bedroom. It is like the budget cap - it just opens up for more dodgy business.

[Madras]

When will we hear the result of the appeal?

[CaptnMark]

IMO: it should be banned, but for next year only (adopt rules Ross Brawn proposed last year).

[ATM_Andy]

Originally posted by Madras
When will we hear the result of the appeal?

Probably Wednesday the 15th

[Broadway]

Originally posted by CaptnMark
IMO: it should be banned, but for next year only (adopt rules Ross Brawn proposed last year).

Leave it in. Those who does not have it is probably haf-way through the development phase. Reduce the wings even more next year instead to compensate. They could also consider doing something about the snow plough attached to the cars this year. Looks silly.

[Madras]

Originally posted by Broadway

They could also consider doing something about the snow plough attached to the cars this year. Looks silly.

Hmm, I started a thread on that last week and most people seem to think they should stay...

[engel]

I think it will be banned but not because X team has it and is too fast, it will be banned because the potential gains from exploiting that area are huge and will pretty quickly negate all the OWG work.

[Bluesmoke]

If it is banned. I will ban myself from watching this god dammned circus ever again!

[4MEN]

Originally posted by button_sw
I heard that they have some new fancy sidepods worth about 0.3 seconds but until we see it on track we will not know exactly how much it will give them. Ross has already stated that they have some pretty big developments for Spain and the rest of the season.

It will be funny when McLaren and Ferrari turn up in Spain with a major upgrade worth 0.7 and Brawn with their updates match or better and it and will still be over a second ahead of them!

Imagine if Alonso had signed. The championship would be already over.

[MinT]

er..no.

He would (possibly) be leading by the same points margin as Button is...

[4MEN]

Originally posted by MinT
er..no.

He would (possibly) be leading by the same points margin as Button is...

Obviously, Button has got the maximum points, but, he has had clearly a great car advantage. Alonso had demostrated to know how to win WITHOUT that car advantage. Give a rocket to a genius driver and you get the Schumacher domination.

A comparison: Loeb has won 4/4 rallies this year. Looking at my glass ball, the championship is almost over, IMO. If Hirvonen had got that 4/4, I wouldn't make that statement. They are not in the same league.

However, I remember Button being the most scoring driver some year ago, when his Honda wasn't a dog, so he also produces me some fear. He just could manage his early advantage and win the champ.

[engel]

Originally posted by 4MEN


Obviously, Button has got the maximum points, but, he has had clearly a great car advantage. Alonso had demostrated to know how to win WITHOUT that car advantage. Give a rocket to a genius driver and you get the Schumacher domination.

A comparison: Loeb has won 4/4 rallies this year. Looking at my glass ball, the championship is almost over, IMO. If Hirvonen had got that 4/4, I wouldn't make that statement. They are not in the same league.

However, I remember Button being the most scoring driver some year ago, when his Honda wasn't a dog, so he also produces me some fear. He just could manage his early advantage and win the champ.

Early advantages are nice but a championship don't make. Last year Massa was zero points for 2 gp and ended up 1 point short of the WDC

[EVO2]

This should have absolutely nothing to do with what is happening on the track.

Either the three diffusers are within the rules as written or they are not. All this bunkum from Briatori about breaching the spirit of the regulations is just his excuse for failure.

Similarly the comment from McLaren "we believe that the diffusers used on the Brawn, Toyota and Williams cars are outside the scope and intent of the technical regulations" is simpy not relevant. The only rules are the ones written down - nothing else counts.

The FIA technical delegate thought all three defusers were legal as did the stewards at two grand prix.

If the FIA ban them it will simply be because of pressure by the other teams and from Bernie and that would be a travesty.

The protesting teams must know that the diffusers are within the rules as written and their attempt to ban them is just a cynical attempt to gain an advantage the easy way rather than admit their designers missed a major performance gain.

I really hope that the rules are clarified and that the other teams are forced to catch up.

Nothing else would be fair.

After all, Jenson Button is a world class driver : it's not as if there was any risk that a driver such as Piquet could win the WDC just because of a very good car.

[engel]

Originally posted by EVO2

The protesting teams must know that the diffusers are within the rules as written and their attempt to ban them is just a cynical attempt to gain an advantage the easy way rather than admit their designers missed a major performance gain.

It's not always as cut and dried that. There have been some suggestions they were all aware of the loophole and there was a gentleman's agreement in place not to exploit it.

Either way *if* they get banned it won't be the first time something that adheres to the letter of the technical regulations but not the spirit gets banned.

[Dunder]

Originally posted by Rob


It'll be banned as a moveable aerodynamic device, as it is attached to a moving vehicle.

Nice one.

[stevewf1]

Uh-oh... Too much of an "advantage" for some teams so let's make things more equal - "fair"...

F1 is becoming NASCAR right before our very eyes.

[RiDE]

I bet it will be banned next year.

[Cindy]

Didn't Rubens lose his diffuser in Australia at the beginning of the race? They can't be all that important, at least not to Brawn.

From everything I've read, I expect they will be declared legal. It was judged legal by the stewards in the last two races, and all the teams are preparing their own versions. The FIA isn't going to overturn it.

They may tighten up the reg for next year, but this year will go forward I expect.

[stevewf1]

Originally posted by Cindy
Didn't Rubens lose his diffuser in Australia at the beginning of the race? They can't be all that important, at least not to Brawn.

From everything I've read, I expect they will be declared legal. It was judged legal by the stewards in the last two races, and all the teams are preparing their own versions. The FIA isn't going to overturn it.

They may tighten up the reg for next year, but this year will go forward I expect.

That's what I think. There's more to the Brawn than just the diffuser.

[carbonfibre]

lost his diffuser?

I assume you mean he lost one of the flaps of the frontwing but can't recall losing parts of his diffuser.