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Greatest drive not to result in win.


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#1 27GV

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:39

I was thinking what are some great drives where the driver deserved to win. Please don't roll out every race last year. I mean really great drives, performing beyond the limits of the car or a great drive from the back, not just a mechanical failure from someone cruising in a much faster car.

I'd say Trulli Austria 1997, Alesi Japan 1995, Webber Fuji 2007, Clark Monza 1967 and the often mentioned Hill Hungary 1997 and Senna Monaco 1984 are some.

There are probably a lot of great ones from the 50s, 60s or 70s that won't be mentioned or even remembered.

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#2 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:42

Well, at Austria and Hungary in 1997 both drivers had a car that was as good as any other in the field, so they're no different from a typical dnf-while-leading.

#3 potmotr

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:42

Originally posted by 27GV

I'd say Trulli Austria 1997


I think that race is often forgotten actually.

He was on Bridgestone tyres which offered a massive advantage at the A1 Ring.

But for a youngster he held it together before the engine detonated.

A great shame.

#4 bogi

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:49

Barichello - A1 Ring 2002 :lol:

#5 Beamer

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:50

Are we in off-season mode again?
Threads on:
- Greatest drive not to result in win.
- The Best Ever to never win a Grand Prix
- The Greatest Ever to never win a WDC
:confused:

#6 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:51

He did not lead a single lap, but Fisichella Spa 2001 was a great drive.

:cool:

#7 TickTickBooom

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:51

Originally posted by Beamer
Are we in off-season mode again?
Threads on:
- Greatest drive not to result in win.
- The Best Ever to never win a Grand Prix
- The Greatest Ever to never win a WDC
:confused:

:up:

They'll be complaining they're bored come November. ;)

#8 john ruston

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:52

Rindt !966 Belgium GP
Hamilton 2008 Belgium GP

#9 MegaManson

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:52

Bellof at Monaco 84

#10 potmotr

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:54

Without wanting to climb onto my personal high horse...

Andrea De Cesaris at Spa 1991.

A guy who was regarded as an erratic crashing pay driver only in Formula One thanks to his family connections to Marlboro shows new-found maturity in a good car.

After staying near the front all day De Cesaris is closing down on lesser driver than Ayrton Senna (who is in gearbox trouble) towards the end of the race when his engine blows.

A great shame, it would have been one of the greatest zero to hero stories of all time.

#11 Korben82

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:54

Alonso Hungary 06, arguably his best drive on a F1 car.

#12 Johnrambo

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:54

Häkkinen at Suzuka 2000. Kimi at the Nurburgring 2005.

#13 RSNS

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:55

Well, Clark in Monza is one of the textbook examples, but I often wondered if it really was a good example: Monza was easy to drive and his opponents were riding lesser or off tuned machinery. Even so, it must have been an almost perfect drive.

Schumacher's last race was very impressive. He said 'the car was insanely quick' but I am sure he was being modest: he was insanely quick.

#14 ashnathan

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:59

Hakkinen Spain 2001. Hakkinen Nurburgring 1997. Hakkinen Monza 1999, Hakkinen Suzuka 2000, Hakkinen Silverstone 1997. Hakkinen. Hakkinen. Hakkinen. Hakkinen. and Kimi at Magny-Cours 2002.

#15 ForeverF1

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:00

Von Tripps' battle with Jim Clark at Nurbergring (full circuit) 1961. Sadly Von Tripps was killed in that race along with 12 spectators.

#16 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:03

And then died again in the Italian Grand Prix? :confused:

#17 as65p

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:06

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
And then died again in the Italian Grand Prix? :confused:



:lol: Don't be so cruel!

#18 as65p

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:07

... and BTW:

Senna@Suzuka '89!



#19 john ruston

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:09

And I thought Moss won the 61 GP so where does JC come into it?Why von Trips drive was so good?He had 35 bhp more than the other car.

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#20 ensign14

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:13

Originally posted by ForeverF1
Von Tripps' battle with Jim Clark at Nurbergring (full circuit) 1961. Sadly Von Tripps was killed in that race along with 12 spectators.

No, it was Monza where von Trips died. On about the 2nd lap. The race at the Ring saw Moss show everyone who was master.

Clark, Monza 1967, is perhaps the greatest candidate. I've gone through the laptimes on that before. Although people forget Graham Hill retired from an easy lead after Clark's pit-stop, Clark's pace was metronomic and mesmeric, even when cutting his way back through the field. Had it not been for a litre of fuel it would have been astonishing.

Amon at Clermont-Ferrand - a true driver circuit - in 1972 another. Led to half-distance, then puncture, dropped to 8th and was back up to 3rd by the end. 4 seconds behind world-champ-to-be Fittipaldi at flag fall. Fastest lap was 2 seconds up on race-winner Stewart.

#21 Broadway

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:16

I am quite sure that if we would be able to watch all races from each and every drivers perspective, the winner in this category would probably be someone who came through pre-qualifying and ended the race with a DNF, three laps to go, after having reached P11.

I am all for a good hypothetical discussion, as long as one remembers that it is nothing more than that.

#22 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:26

Originally posted by potmotr
Without wanting to climb onto my personal high horse...

Andrea De Cesaris at Spa 1991.

A guy who was regarded as an erratic crashing pay driver only in Formula One thanks to his family connections to Marlboro shows new-found maturity in a good car.

After staying near the front all day De Cesaris is closing down on lesser driver than Ayrton Senna (who is in gearbox trouble) towards the end of the race when his engine blows.

A great shame, it would have been one of the greatest zero to hero stories of all time.


Did he not lead half the Belgian Grand Prix with an Alfa early in his career? Maybe that one is a good suggestion as well?

:cool:

#23 ForeverF1

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:28

Originally posted by ensign14
No, it was Monza where von Trips died. On about the 2nd lap. The race at the Ring saw Moss show everyone who was master.

Clark, Monza 1967, is perhaps the greatest candidate. I've gone through the laptimes on that before. Although people forget Graham Hill retired from an easy lead after Clark's pit-stop, Clark's pace was metronomic and mesmeric, even when cutting his way back through the field. Had it not been for a litre of fuel it would have been astonishing.

Amon at Clermont-Ferrand - a true driver circuit - in 1972 another. Led to half-distance, then puncture, dropped to 8th and was back up to 3rd by the end. 4 seconds behind world-champ-to-be Fittipaldi at flag fall. Fastest lap was 2 seconds up on race-winner Stewart.


I stand corrected, it was Monza on the second lap at Vedano corner that he and the spectators were killed. :blush: :blush:

#24 ensign14

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:35

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


Did he not lead half the Belgian Grand Prix with an Alfa early in his career? Maybe that one is a good suggestion as well?

:cool:

1983, a race that was started twice. Both times he leaped from the second row to lead. Bruno at the Glen in 1980 might be a candidate, it was only a few months' earlier that Alfa had to recover from the loss of Depailler. Led from pole before the wiring went AWOL.

#25 klyster

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:46

Cool thread :up:

I wish I could contribute, but I'll stick to looking up these on youtube. thanks.

#26 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:54

Damon dragging the carthorse of an Arrows into a 40-odd second lead at the Hungaroring in 97 until the shitbox failed him :mad:

#27 PNSD

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:55

Hill, Hungary 97.

Strangley I dont remember exactly what happened at Suzuka in 2000? I thought it was a well fought Michael victory? Ive always remembered it as one of my favourite races, probably because rather than Michael take Mika out, it was a hard fought fair end to what was one of the best F1 seasons imo.

#28 Slyder

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:10

off the top of my head

Clark 1967
Andretti - Anderstorp and Montreal 1977
Jones - Zolder and Silverstone 1979
Piquet - Montreal 1980
De Cesaris - Spa 1983
Senna or Prost - San Marino 1985
Senna - Silverstone 1985, Monaco 1988, Montreal and Monza 1989,
Mansell - Hungary and Monaco 1986, Montreal 1991 (although that one was probably self inflicted)
Schumacher - Silverstone 1997
Hill - Hungary 1997 (this one was hard to watch)
Villeneuve - Hockenheim 1998 (He was faster than the Mac Mercs until the diff broke), Not a great drive, but he had a sure podium finish in Austria 2002
Trulli - Austria 1997
Hakkinen - Spain 2001
Montoya - In like 4 or 5 races in 2001 and 2002 that I can't remember
Raikkonen - France 2002, Nurburgring 2003 and 2005
Hamilton - China 2007
Massa - Hungary 2008

#29 D.M.N.

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:12

Alesi - Japan 1995 definitely comes into mind here... there was a feature in Autosport a few weeks ago on that particular drive.

Originally posted by Slyder
Hamilton - China 2007


How? Sliding into a wall doesn't constitute "greatest drive". :rotfl:

#30 Francesc

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:19

Jean Pierre Jarier - Canada 1978

#31 potmotr

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:23

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


Did he not lead half the Belgian Grand Prix with an Alfa early in his career? Maybe that one is a good suggestion as well?

:cool:


Yep, he did before the Alfa blew up.

Spa 91 will always be my favourite though.

Andrea looked so calm and quick that day, picking off Piquet and Patrese and forcing Senna to weave all over the road on the run up to Les Combes at one point.

#32 stevewf1

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:24

Mansell at Montreal 1991 :lol:

#33 Gilles12

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:27

Jim Clark - Indy 500 - 1963

#34 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:29

Originally posted by potmotr


Yep, he did before the Alfa blew up.

Spa 91 will always be my favourite though.

Andrea looked so calm and quick that day, picking off Piquet and Patrese and forcing Senna to weave all over the road on the run up to Les Combes at one point.


De Cesaris was arguably the biggest enigma in a F1 car the past 30 years. He was so fast, and broke down so many times. I think that he was a better driver / racer than what he was (is) given credit for, basically on pace or faster than all team mates he ever had, raced for about 711 different teams, looked so good on track when on song, and basically zero results to speak to when measured against the number of races started.

Reliability have changed a lot, he may somehow have been a car-breaker, but I think it possible that he was a Heidfeld / Massa clone born 20 years early. If he could somehow have found himself in the right car, and if he could have changed his ways as Massa obviously have, then he could have been a multiple GP winner.

:cool:

#35 BMW_F1

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:46

From the ones I can remember..

Alonso - hungary 06
Montoya - Silverstone 03
Montoya - Brazil 01
Montoya - Germany 05.

#36 Claudius

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:47

Schumacher - Barcelona 94

Lead the race, got stuck in 5th gear, made a pitstop with that, and still finished second.
One of his best drives IMO.

#37 fed up

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:48

Hamilton - Spa 2008

#38 potmotr

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:51

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


De Cesaris was arguably the biggest enigma in a F1 car the past 30 years. He was so fast, and broke down so many times. I think that he was a better driver / racer than what he was (is) given credit for, basically on pace or faster than all team mates he ever had,


You're right, he was quicker than most of them with the exception of Alessandro Nannini at Minardi in 1986. Michael Schumacher was also immediately quicker than him in the Jordan at Spa, but Schumacher is a pretty exceptional case. As Andrea said: "I was glad he left the team so soon, otherwise he'd have been a real pain in the arse."

There's a great quote from Eddie Jordan in this month's Motorsport magazine. He says: "Andrea was a different person with us. We knew he'd be a pain in the arse, and he was. A real baby. But he was quick. And funny too."

I think a lot of his problems stem from being in rubbish cars running in the midfield. Whenever he had his hands on decent machinery, like the Jordans of 1991 and 1994 or the 1992 Tyrrell he did a really good job.

He was also one of the quickest guys at Monaco 1989 and was on for a podium before being taken out by Nelson Piquet (while lapping the multiple world champion!).


Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


he may somehow have been a car-breaker, but I think it possible that he was a Heidfeld / Massa clone born 20 years early. If he could somehow have found himself in the right car, and if he could have changed his ways as Massa obviously have, then he could have been a multiple GP winner.

:cool:


Agreed, he was probably quite hard on his cars but then he was dealing with some pretty average machinery.

But he was totally fearless. Think of the 1988 Rial were his entire upper body above his arm pits were exposed from the cockpit.

By the 1990s he knew how to run a fast race and finish, while staying out of trouble.

On a personal note my favourite current driver is Nick Heidfeld. For some reason I love the underdog!

What is amazing about De Cesaris is that he was never hurt in his long career. He had some massive, massive accidents in a time that was quite a bit more dangerous than now.

Yet the only time I saw him slightly injured was when he limped away from Jordan he crashed at Bridge at Silverstone in 1991.

Then there was that 1985 crash in Austria that he walked away from. The Eddie Jordan quote on my signature says it all for me!

#39 potmotr

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:53

Originally posted by Claudius
Schumacher - Barcelona 94

Lead the race, got stuck in 5th gear, made a pitstop with that, and still finished second.
One of his best drives IMO.


Agreed, but for me Schumacher's 1994 season will always be clouded by the illegal traction control scandal.

After all, Senna went to his grave adament Benetton were cheating.

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#40 Little Leaf

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:54

Stefan Johansson, San Marino 1985

And Trulli 1997 Austria must be up there

#41 Kop Alonso

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:56

Herbert Donnington 93 - finished 4th & pitted only once..
Brundle Detroit 84


:cool:

#42 RedBaron

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:59

Schumacher Spa 1998.

Schumacher Brazil 2006.

;)

Damon Hill 1997, I'd agree with that definitely and unfortunately.

#43 Kop Alonso

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 12:01

Warwick Brands Hatch 82

Surer Brands Hatch 85

:clap:

#44 sreevishnu

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 12:03

Originally posted by Johnrambo
Häkkinen at Suzuka 2000.


Woott!! :eek: :eek: we are not talking about the best 2nd place drive.

He was purely outclassed by Schumi that day

#45 Gilles12

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 12:07

Originally posted by potmotr


Agreed, but for me Schumacher's 1994 season will always be clouded by the illegal traction control scandal.

After all, Senna went to his grave adament Benetton were cheating.


For me the 1990 season will always be blighted by the fact that Senna deliberately drove a competitor off the road to win the champiionship

No one needs to take that to their grave to justify it's validity

#46 Kop Alonso

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 12:12

Originally posted by Gilles12


For me the 1990 season will always be blighted by the fact that Senna deliberately drove a competitor off the road to win the champiionship

No one needs to take that to their grave to justify it's validity


+1

:up:

#47 potmotr

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 12:15

Originally posted by Gilles12


For me the 1990 season will always be blighted by the fact that Senna deliberately drove a competitor off the road to win the champiionship

No one needs to take that to their grave to justify it's validity


Oh, couldn't agree more.

Senna was certainly no angel and that was one of the sport's dirtiest moves.

The common assumption is that if Senna had lived we'd have seen a golden age of competition between he and Schumacher.

I think we'd also have seen a time of huge acrimony as each drove each other of the track in desperate moments, they were both that dirty on occassion.

#48 Gilles12

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 12:18

Originally posted by potmotr



The common assumption is that if Senna had lived we'd have seen a golden age of competition between he and Schumacher.


Agreed :) That would have been something quite delicious and I have goosebumps just thinking about it :)

#49 eoin

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 12:18

Doesn't seem to be mentioned so Schumacher, Brazil '06.

#50 RedBaron

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 12:23

Originally posted by eoin
Doesn't seem to be mentioned so Schumacher, Brazil '06.


Has twice :p Worth another mention though!