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Overtaking under yellow flag or safety car


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#1 alg7_munif

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 19:43

I just want to know what would you do if you were a team manager under these circumstances:

1) If you know that your driver overtook another car under yellow flag illegally, would you ask your driver to give the position back immediately or would you wait for a clarification from the race control?

2) If you don't know whether your driver overtook another car under yellow flag legally or illegally, would you ask your driver to give the position back immediately or would you wait for a clarification from the race control?

My answer to these questions would be:

I would ask my driver to give the position back immediately because I'm sure that if the overtaking was indeed illegal, I won't just get a clarification, but also a penalty if the position was not given back immediately.

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#2 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 20:15

under a safety car there is no such thing as "don't know". you know there is a safety car, what else is there to know? ask the driver what happened and you know everything.

the yellow flag you mean if there is a local yellow? my driver would better notice the flags...I would try to find, but it's his primary job to see the flags. If it was yellow, and he still passed I would like to know why..maybe kimi-ms @france 2000?

so...there is not really a need for clarification..

#3 Arska

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 21:57

Originally posted by alg7_munif

1) If you know that your driver overtook another car under yellow flag illegally, would you ask your driver to give the position back immediately or would you wait for a clarification from the race control?


Immediately.

2) If you don't know whether your driver overtook another car under yellow flag legally or illegally, would you ask your driver to give the position back immediately or would you wait for a clarification from the race control?


You would ask the driver what the case is, and take it from there.

In general this ask-from-Whiting thing is just lame. You know the rules, now just freaking follow them. It seems that McLaren's position is that if we ask Charlie first, we can't be held responsible anymore - kind of like "there, we asked Charlie, now the responsibility is on him". Come on Mc, be men. Follow the rules, it's not that hard.

#4 roger_valentine

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 14:26

I'm wondering whether any of this "give the position back" malarkey is enshrined within the rules, or whether it is merely a convention adopted by the drivers in the hope of getting away without a penalty.

Seems to me that if you break the rules you are liable for a penalty, and merely trying to 'make amends' doesn't automatically mean you are excused. There are lots of examples of this in motor racing:

Jumping the start: how often have we seen someone move forward before the green light, then jam their brakes on, so they actually make a worse start than everone else? But they jumped the start, and will be penalised.

Speeding in the pit lane: so you are caught speeding in the pit lane - do you really think that making amends by driving very slowly on your out-lap means that you will escape the penalty?


I think that the current controvosy about "giving the position back" stems from a confusion between two very different no-overtaking situations:

Situation 1: Cutting the chicane (e.g. Belgium 2008)
Situation 2: Yellow flag/safety car (e.g. Australia 2009)

Situation 1 is very common, and there have been so many 'clarifications' that, whatever the actual rule says, the interpretation is probably going to be:
For repeted offences - a penalty
For a single offence - no penalty provided the offender did not gain any (positional) advantage from the move.

So, if you do gain a position, then immediately giving the position back might very well mean you escape the penalty.

But in Situation 2, nobody is allowed to overtake, so gaining a position earns you a penalty, and giving the position back earns the other driver a penalty. I don't know whether 'inciting someone else to break the rules' is in itself against the rules, but you would probably feel inclined to lie about it if questioned, which, as we have seen, turns out to be not a good idea.

#5 engel

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 14:45

Originally posted by roger_valentine
I'm wondering whether any of this "give the position back" malarkey is enshrined within the rules, or whether it is merely a convention adopted by the drivers in the hope of getting away without a penalty.


Rules are meant to be interpreted. Is the no overtaking behind a safety car rule there to a) signify racing stops, don't try and take positions or you ll be punished or b) to punish 100% of the time even when there are extenuating circumstances ie a genuine error that gets rectified.

Here's an example, and I must stress it's an example nothing more. Say for example when Trulli went off track and Hamilton overtook him, let's say for argument's sake Trulli managed to put 1 wheel on the track before Hamilton went ahead of him. This would make the move technically illegal. Would you advocate Hamilton (or whoever) getting punished or would you accept him relinquishing his position back to Trulli as case closed considering neither the race, order, result or anything was affected by it.

Stewards look at incidents from the POV of intent and tend to excuse incidents they are convinced were genuine errors which the driver neither intended to nor actually benefited from. That doesn't just apply to the SC, it applies to cutting chicanes pretty much most sporting regulations.

The above is very clearly demonstrated by the Australian stewards. In the end Trulli was not punished for overtaking Hamilton ... inspite of liegate, if the stewards felt Trulli was wrong in overtaking Hamilton they could have upheld his punishment and punished Hamilton for the lies. This didn't happen.

Speeding in the pit lane by the way is a safety issue, speed is limited to avoid accidents in that particular spot not to slow your lap down.

#6 Gareth

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 14:52

Originally posted by alg7_munif
I just want to know what would you do if you were a team manager under these circumstances:

1) If you know that your driver overtook another car under yellow flag illegally, would you ask your driver to give the position back immediately or would you wait for a clarification from the race control?

Definitely imediately. Race Control only give advice, it is not binding on the stewards. So even if race control got back to me and (mistakenly) said that the pass was legal, I'd tell my driver to cede the place if I knew they had made a wrong call as the stewards could correct that wrong call, so no point in hanging on for word from race control

Originally posted by alg7_munif
2) If you don't know whether your driver overtook another car under yellow flag legally or illegally, would you ask your driver to give the position back immediately or would you wait for a clarification from the race control?

Depends on a couple of things:

1. Do I not know because I don't yet have information (other than advice from race control), or have I got all the information I can and I am still unsure? If the former, I'd (dependant on 2 below) try and gain more information to allow me to make a decision on legality. If the latter, I'd (dependent on 2) wait for the advice from Race Control

2. How long is the SC period likely to be? I think you have until the end of the SC period to give an illegally gained place back - behind the SC, places don't matter until just before the SC comes in, so if you run for the first 8 laps of an SC out of position but give it back before the SC comes in on lap 9, I don't think you've gained an advantage and giving the place back has "cured" your breach of the regs (provided the breach only resulted in a sporting, and not safety, issue). So if I think there is plenty of time left under the SC, I'd delay any decision whilst awaiting further information from my driver, advice from race control etc.

#7 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 15:06

Id like to think I would have told Lewis to hold position after Trulli threw it off the track until told otherwise by race control. Its the obvious thing to do.

#8 alexbiker

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 15:07

People who fall off the track, crash or overtake under a safety car should be excluded from the race. There's no question of giving places back.

The safety car and the yellow flags exist for people like me, a track doctor, who are working in gravel traps with my spine board, oxygen, laryngoscope, morphine. . . . I simply cannot defend myself against the stupidity of people who should know better and treat the patient properly at the same time.

Everyone in motorsport, two and four wheeled, takes their cue from MotoGP and F1. I have heard drivers explaining their actions as ok because "Senna did it" or "Schumacher did it," and I've had to throw myself backwards off a casualty to avoid an idiot crashing in sympathy.

It's time to crack down. Marshals die every year.

#9 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 15:17

Originally posted by alexbiker
People who fall off the track, crash or overtake under a safety car should be excluded from the race. There's no question of giving places back.

the safety car is on track because there obviously is a big problem (i.e. huge accident, big rain etc) so why excluding the ones that go out from the race? it's clearly not the best conditions around for the track, so people going out could be expected.

#10 alexbiker

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 15:21

Balls.

Trulli fell off on a perfectly fine track through his own inattention, nothing more. Yes, some reasonableness can be applied as in Malaysia, when the safety car has ten seconds' pace on the field, but on a dry track? No way.

#11 anthony says

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 15:42

The teams were told by FIA after Spa not to contact Whiting for advice of this kind during the race in future, and he was told not to answer them even if they did. McLaren appear unable to understand this, owing to the pananoia that grips them.

The teams should know the rules and if they are in the clear they should hold position. If they are unsure, they should give back the place in a positive way, waving the man behind through (if you do it just by slowing down, you could paradoxically be penalised for giving the place back by driving unsteadily behind the SC, as was the problem this time).

The only reason for doubt in this case was whether Trulli was still off the track when Hamilton passed him. The team didn't know because they didn't see it. If they weren't so paranoid, they would have trusted Hamilton's judgement, that's what they should have done. And then he would have stayed ahead, and it seems he would have been right to do so and none of the problems would have occured.

#12 Hippo

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 09:10

Race control should act more professionally if you ask me. What is so hard about it? Someone overtaking someone else accidently can happen. They're no robots and as long as it's not dangerous, who cares? Race control could have a quick look at it, sort out the correct order and everything is fine. If Nascar is capable of that F1 should be too.
Instead they're acting like frigging morons, overemphasizing their power and run mighty crusades because of totally unimportant sh!t like that in the aftermath.

#13 stephen green

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 09:16

The rules are very clear; under yellow flags there is to be NO overtaking! If a driver does overtake and then immediately gives the place back it MAY be looked upon kindly by the Clerk of the Course. Marshals will always report any driver overtaking under yellow flags as this is the only protection they have from traffic while working trackside.

#14 j madra

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 22:08

Originally posted by Hippo
Race control should act more professionally if you ask me. What is so hard about it? Someone overtaking someone else accidently can happen. They're no robots and as long as it's not dangerous, who cares? Race control could have a quick look at it, sort out the correct order and everything is fine. If Nascar is capable of that F1 should be too.
Instead they're acting like frigging morons, overemphasizing their power and run mighty crusades because of totally unimportant sh!t like that in the aftermath.


No kidding. By doing this, race control and the stewards inject themselves into the results...good officiating should go unoticed by viewers...

#15 Rob

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 22:18

IMHO, giving the place back doesn't make amends for breaking a rule that is in place for safety reasons.

#16 alg7_munif

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 22:43

What is the difference between
1) overtaking under a yellow flag or safety car
2) gaininng a position under yellow flag or safety car because the other car slowed down for whatever reason?

#17 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 22:43

Originally posted by alexbiker
Balls.

Trulli fell off on a perfectly fine track through his own inattention, nothing more. Yes, some reasonableness can be applied as in Malaysia, when the safety car has ten seconds' pace on the field, but on a dry track? No way.

yeah, these f1 cars with 700+hp and colder tyres are really easy to handle at low speeds (and low downforce).
he is not the first one to lose it here. schumacher did it too, in china, and you really can't say he lacked car control

#18 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 22:44

Originally posted by alg7_munif
What is the difference between overtaking under a yellow flag or safety car and gaininng a position under yellow flag or safety car because the other car slowed down for whatever reason?

the difference is that, if you slow down "for whatever reason" you cannot expect everybody to slow down behind and wait for you...there is a limit of distance to the car in front...if you can't keep that pace, well..

#19 alg7_munif

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 22:48

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

the difference is that, if you slow down "for whatever reason" you cannot expect everybody to slow down behind and wait for you...there is a limit of distance to the car in front...if you can't keep that pace, well..


How can you tell whether it is overtaking or gaining a position because the other car slowed down?