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#51 DOF_power

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 19:33

Originally posted by Lazarus II

"Racertainment" (I like your new word BTW) is what F1 is and has been for over 30-years...maybe 40!

For F1 to survive it needs to be relevent; relevent to society and relevent to the fans. Without a strong fanbase to keep it alive it will die.




You can't be relevant to society/auto industry and Co. and to the comatose drive fanboys.
As to the racertainment part, that's why I belive GP should go back to the 1930s, or die.

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#52 noikeee

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 19:36

Originally posted by DOF_power




You can't be relevant to society/auto industry and Co. and to the comatose drive fanboys.
As to the racertainment part, that's why I belive GP should go back to the 1930s, or die.


You're entitled to your opinions, but I bet it's sad to live constantly in a distant past.

I don't understand neither why would a dead F1 be better than a circus F1.

#53 EthanM

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 19:36

Originally posted by Lazarus II

It can still be a team sport and would actually be (arguably) more of a "Car Constructor Championship". Which team can build the best car and be proven to be the best by the "best drivers in the world".

F1 drivers drive the car, they don't develop it. Engineers design the car and engineers develop it. Look at what JPM says about that issue - sure there are those that disagree with him, but they have no experience whereas he has 5 or 6 years (whatever it is-was).



OK I see why you support this idea ... you have no actual clue about what you 're talking about. Engineers have no clue how their car behaves unless a driver tells them. Windtunnels and CFD don't include sensory feedback afaik

#54 DOF_power

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 19:37

Originally posted by Lazarus II

So his opinion is not fit? even though he lived it and we live it vicariously through others :drunk:

Try again




It's true.
Montoya was a sore loser and misfit who didn't adapt and gave up.

#55 DOF_power

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 19:38

Originally posted by paranoik0


You're entitled to your opinions, but I bet it's sad to live constantly in a distant past.

I don't understand neither why would a dead F1 be better than a circus F1.




Because it wouldn't be a circus.
As to the 30s part, I mean freedom, diversity, innovation, pushing the envelope.

#56 Lazarus II

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 19:39

Originally posted by paranoik0


It wouldn't be that good in a financial way, because by rotating drivers I don't think the sponsors would be pleased, for example you wouldn't be able to identify the world champion with the team sponsors in advertising. Maybe they could have individual sponsors, but then either:

a) car livery changes race to race, so the spectators can't identify the teams properly
b) car livery stays the same, with the team sponsors, so the driver's sponsors can't use his image properly

It's a mess.

This is the crux of the matter. Both are very true and would require greater minds to get worked out; Bernie would only worry about Bernie cashing in on every aspect and Max would only worry about dominating. F1's present government has zero chance of pulling this off with any success; IMO they have zero chance of saving F1 from it's present course of death.

I would have to agree with Doggins on this one and say that "marketing should be an aside not a main influence". The drivers could be free to pursue personal sponsors and if there was a sponsor conflict the team sponsor would have precedence. It's not perfect, but what is?

#57 Madras

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 19:40

Might as well make it a spec series. Stupid idea.

#58 Lazarus II

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 19:47

Originally posted by EthanM



OK I see why you support this idea ... you have no actual clue about what you 're talking about. Engineers have no clue how their car behaves unless a driver tells them. Windtunnels and CFD don't include sensory feedback afaik

No but all the sensors installed on the car do. "you need to push to heat the rear tires up to correct temperature"....oh that's right Montoya was not fit to be in F1 so his opinion doesn't matter :rotfl: (even though he won races).

How is it that someone that wins races in the series (and challenge for the championship) is not fit to be there? :lol:

#59 noikeee

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 19:48

Originally posted by DOF_power




Because it wouldn't be a circus.
As to the 30s part, I mean freedom, diversity, innovation, pushing the envelope.


If a circus exists, you can still dust off the VHS tapes and forget that the modern stuff exist, while we watch it live on TV. If it doesn't exist, well... it changes nothing for you, and we get to watch nothing.

I'm just not understanding the all-or-nothing attitude. The past isn't coming back. Things have evolved, the competitors are ridiculously more professional than in the past, and all sorts of issues derivate from it. So everyone is now in damage control. It's kinda natural actually.

This isn't really about this the subject of this thread, I've mentioned before here I'm against driver rotation, it's just an obversation about most of the stuff I've read you write lately.

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#60 ensign14

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 19:50

Funny, the previous Dodgy Business criticized Hamilton and praised the FIA, now the current one is in praise of a Mosley idea that many people derided.

#61 giacomo

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 19:53

A spec series would make more sense.

#62 EthanM

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 19:57

Originally posted by Lazarus II

No but all the sensors installed on the car do. "you need to push to heat the rear tires up to correct temperature"....oh that's right Montoya was not fit to be in F1 so his opinion doesn't matter :rotfl: (even though he won races).

How is it that someone that wins races in the series (and challenge for the championship) is not fit to be there? :lol:


Maybe one of the reasons he only challenged for and never actually won was that he couldn't put in the work to develop his car? Like MS did ? :lol:

Sensors give you data, driver translates data into behavior. F1 is is primarily engineering but primarily doesn't mean exclusively. Drivers do alot more than turn up every other weekend and race.

#63 Ferrim

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:02

Originally posted by giacomo
A spec series would make more sense.


:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

For God's sake, I cannot believe that people are really supporting this. If you want to know who is the better driver just have a spec series! Driver rotation? WTF?

#64 Lazarus II

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:04

Originally posted by EthanM


Maybe one of the reasons he only challenged for and never actually won was that he couldn't put in the work to develop his car? Like MS did ? :lol:

Sensors give you data, driver translates data into behavior. F1 is is primarily engineering but primarily doesn't mean exclusively. Drivers do alot more than turn up every other weekend and race.

Yes they collect a rather large paycheck.

Alex Yoong could have been WDC in the MP4/4, F2002, or F2004. In F1 it's all about the car. You give far too much credit to a (usually) uneducated kid (Mark Donohue being one exception).

#65 DOF_power

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:04

Originally posted by paranoik0


If a circus exists, you can still dust off the VHS tapes and forget that the modern stuff exist, while we watch it live on TV. If it doesn't exist, well... it changes nothing for you, and we get to watch nothing.

I'm just not understanding the all-or-nothing attitude. The past isn't coming back. Things have evolved, the competitors are ridiculously more professional than in the past, and all sorts of issues derivate from it. So everyone is now in damage control. It's kinda natural actually.

This isn't really about this the subject of this thread, I've mentioned before here I'm against driver rotation, it's just an obversation about most of the stuff I've read you write lately.




The competitors are "ridiculously more professional" thanks to the rediscovering of the standards that Mercedes Benz and Auto Union imposed in the 1930s.
Now they what's needed is to free the regulations and allow innovation, progress, diversity, blue sky thinking, relevancy.

#66 giacomo

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:09

Originally posted by Lazarus II

Alex Yoong could have been WDC in the MP4/4, F2002, or F2004.

Not with a Prost or Barrichello in the sister car.

#67 peroa

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:11

Originally posted by Ferrim


:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

For God's sake, I cannot believe that people are really supporting this. If you want to know who is the better driver just have a spec series! Driver rotation? WTF?


Neither do I, you have gp2 and now even F2. Do what the f*** you want there.
And such people call themselves F1 fans?

Not that it matters but does Dodgins get something "extra" for popularizing Spanky`s BS ideas?

#68 Lazarus II

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:12

Originally posted by giacomo
Not with a Prost or Barrichello in the sister car.

Maybe you're right about Prost :p (aka - King of the Politician's), but with Ruben's - 2xWDC Alex Yoong :

#69 peroa

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:12

Originally posted by ensign14
Funny, the previous Dodgy Business criticized Hamilton and praised the FIA, now the current one is in praise of a Mosley idea that many people derided.


Credit crunch, everybody looking for something extra to survive ...

#70 giacomo

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:14

Originally posted by Lazarus II

Maybe you're right about Prost :p (aka - King of the Politician's), but with Ruben's - 2xWDC Alex Yoong :

I'm right about Barrichello as well.

#71 Lazarus II

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:18

Originally posted by giacomo
I'm right about Barrichello as well.

Unfortunately, Ruben's is too good of team player.

With driver rototion, no more team orders. They would be totally unecessary. The only real team order would be to bring the car home and don't hit OUR sister car; other than that, race the car that you're given. :clap:

#72 noikeee

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:21

Originally posted by DOF_power




The competitors are "ridiculously more professional" thanks to the rediscovering of the standards that Mercedes Benz and Auto Union imposed in the 1930s.
Now they what's needed is to free the regulations and allow innovation, progress, diversity, blue sky thinking, relevancy.


You just sound like a broken record.

#73 tkulla

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:26

Wow. I'm still stunned by the negativity here on this idea.

Are people that afraid of change? Frankly, I don't see the downside.

People that favor the technical side would get to see what team does the best job without wondering if it was the driver making the difference.

People that favor the driver side would finally have good information about how they compare to each other. For instance, who is better right now - Button or Hamilton? You can guess all you want, but we don't have a shred of real evidence to compare them.

For fanboys, you wouldn't have to worry about your driver being in a slow car, because it would be as fair as possible.

As far as liveries go, it would be a simple matter of reserving a certain part of the car for the driver logos (and perhaps a large color spot to make it easy to identify the driver).

#74 peroa

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:37

Originally posted by tkulla
Wow. I'm still stunned by the negativity here on this idea.

Are people that afraid of change? Frankly, I don't see the downside.


"Don`t fix it if it ain`t broken" seems to be a well ignored sentence in F1 and an awful lot of fixing has been done in the last decade, 90% for the worse.
But hey, I guess some people never get it ...

#75 Broadway

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:48

Originally posted by tkulla
Wow. I'm still stunned by the negativity here on this idea.

Are people that afraid of change? Frankly, I don't see the downside.

People that favor the technical side would get to see what team does the best job without wondering if it was the driver making the difference.

People that favor the driver side would finally have good information about how they compare to each other. For instance, who is better right now - Button or Hamilton? You can guess all you want, but we don't have a shred of real evidence to compare them.

For fanboys, you wouldn't have to worry about your driver being in a slow car, because it would be as fair as possible.

As far as liveries go, it would be a simple matter of reserving a certain part of the car for the driver logos (and perhaps a large color spot to make it easy to identify the driver).

I am shocked that anyone, I mean ANYONE, can think it is a good idea. But maybe the focus have shifted. I have never followed F1 because of a particular driver and that probably explains why I think the driver rotation concept sucks. But I have understood by this board that most "fans" nowadays are a fan of a driver rather than a team.

Imagine if the driver rotation was already this year. Imagine Hamilton was driving tha Force India the first race and the Toro Rosso in Malaysia. Next race race he is driving a Ferrari and the KERS breaks down and he have a DNF. Then we have the WMSC meeting and the DDD diffusers is banned just as Lewis is about to use the Brawn GP car. I think many would feel that rotating drivers does not really guarantee a fair competition after all.

#76 peroa

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:52

Originally posted by Broadway

I am shocked that anyone, I mean ANYONE, can think it is a good idea. But maybe the focus have shifted. I have never followed F1 because of a particular driver and that probably explains why I think the driver rotation concept sucks. But I have understood by this board that most "fans" nowadays are a fan of a driver rather than a team.


Well, this BB has changed a lot in the last years, just like F1, and certainly not for the better ...

#77 DOF_power

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:53

Originally posted by paranoik0


You just sound like a broken record.




Pardon me for wanting/demanding motor racing.
And thing did not evolve, on the contrary, racing has devolved, it has been perverted by men like Ecclestone, Mosley, Balestre, the corrupted garagistes and the casual fanboys .

#78 EthanM

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:56

Practicality issue: You 'd need race events to be a multiple of teams entered. Ie 10 teams = 10 or 20 races, if it was 18 the system would die.

#79 peroa

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:56

Well, the easiest thign to solve this matter is:

- get Dallara to build 24 identical chassis
- 24 Cossie`s

That`s completely fair.

And problem solved... , but hey, we already have 168 spec series ... :drunk: :stoned:

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#80 DOF_power

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 20:58

Originally posted by peroa
Well, the easiest thign to solve this matter is:

- get Dallara to build 24 identical chassis
- 24 Cossie`s

That`s completely fair.

And problem solved... , but hey, we already have 168 spec series ... :drunk: :stoned:




Isn't that called IRL ?!

#81 tkulla

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:12

Originally posted by peroa
Well, the easiest thign to solve this matter is:

- get Dallara to build 24 identical chassis
- 24 Cossie`s

That`s completely fair.

And problem solved... , but hey, we already have 168 spec series ... :drunk: :stoned:


I dont' get the comparisons between this idea and a spec series.

With the rotation idea there is still a constructors champion. In fact, being separated from the WDC would make it a more prominent achievement.

And for the drivers, we'd see a winner who:

Took the checkered when in the better cars, AND...

Made the most of a midfield car to gather valuable points, AND...

Grabbed the lesser cars by the scruff and brought them up closer to the front.

In short, we'd see how well-rounded the drivers are. And don't forget all the direct comparisons between drivers and their "teammate" at each event. So much data to go through... (drool)

#82 Bruce

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:20

What a load of crap. Sorry Tony, but this is pathetic.

The core of Tony's argument is that the driver with the best car wins (oh - that didn't bother you last year, did it Tony?) - But now - HORRORS! Lewis isn't in the best car - what WILL we do?????

Tony is out to lunch - to whit :

In Oz I was delighted to see Brawn/Button at the front and Hamilton/McLaren coming from the back. Not because I've anything against either Lewis or McLaren but because it was a perfect illustration of everything that's wrong with F1. From zero to hero and hero to zero respectively, so inevitably and inescapably, all down to the car.



Note that Tony doesn't state WHY Lew and co. came in "at the back"....

Yeah - pathetic that the best car should win. A sad day for F1. :rolleyes: The only thing strange about this scenario is that McLaren or Ferrari weren't the winner - had Lewis or Massa won, you think Tony would have his knickers in a twist?

In Formula 1, we don't. We think that Senna, Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton, etc, are the best, but that's not good enough. We need to know.



Well - Now Lewis isn't in the best car - now you know. When Lew was in the best car, Tony, I don't remember hearing that we should equalize things...(evenwhen Lewis was chucking away a WDC with both hands) Senna started out in a TOLEMAN - not the best of cars - he graduated to a LOTUS (at the time, not the best of cars) - within 5 years of staring his F1 career he was in a McLaren (at the time the BEST of cars). What a spoiled brat that Senna, eh? Oh. He had to work for it. Funny that you weren't screaming blue murder when the 1994 Williams wasn't up to snuff, eh, Tony?

With budget caps purportedly on the horizon, where stands the future of the mega-buck salaried driver?



OOOOOH - Perhaps they wouldn't be able to milk the best team of a gajillion $$$???? waaah.

Personally, I hate it when someone does a Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve or Lewis Hamilton, and comes straight into F1 in the best car without any record that warrants it, although Hamilton might be able to take issue there.



Yeah - after all, hamilton finished 2nd at Indy in his first year and won the Indycar championship and the Indy 500 in his second.... oh - is that someone else? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Yeah Tony, I'll bet you really HATE THAT _ but give poor Lewwie a break - after all - he's had nothing but McLaren's help, support, and patronage for the last 13 years...pooor guy - whereas Villeneuve made the sad mistake of BURSTING upon F1 through the obvious and simpler expedient of 3 years of Italian F3, 2 years of Toyota Atlantic and 2 years of EXTRAORDINARY Indycar performance (check it if you don't believe me). If Hamilton had HALF the experience of JV, he'd be happy. - :rolleyes: I'm not being tough on Lewis here - it isn't his fault that McLaren love him - but for Dodgins to suggest the Hamilton deserves the benefit of the doubt while those "pathetic" losers Damon (rode motorcycles - nuff said) JV (stated) don't.... I mean - c'mon.

Sorry Tony - bollocks;


And driver-wise you'd have a true meritocracy. No more average Joe forever in a championship-winning car because the sponsors like him



Yeah - remember all those AVERAGE Schumacher, Senna, Prost and Stewart years - so sad that we had to pay the price of their marketability... :rolleyes: ... and - why do you think that Lewis is SO SAD that he is being branded a "liar"? Because he's worried what his girlfriend will think??? C'mon. Lew is toeing the line because he feels he has to.

Sorry, but I can't really see the downside. Never have done. If anyone wants to tell me properly, I'd be all ears. If it's time to fix F1, let's fix it properly.



I can see a downside. You think Renault would favour Alonso or Hamilton? You think McLaren would favour Hamilton or Alonso.... C'MON!!!! What is the point of running a team if you can't have the best person to run your car effectively??? Why spend the extra money to be told that you won the WDC with Glock, Hamilton, Alonso, Sutil, Smith and Jones??? What Dodgins is suggesting is a load of bollocks. If he is so upset about the way things are run, the obvious solution is a standard car and formula, such that each driver gets equal equipment. I find this idea a little repulsive as the idea of Formula One (though it has forgotten it in the recent past) is that it should be a testbed for new and hard to explore technologies (yes - KERS is a good start). Why bother if the formula is standardised and supplied by one supplier? No - So we must have teams to innovate and survive or die on Darwinian selection.

Tony is in denial - Button is winning and Lewis is lying. Poor Tony. How the mighty have fallen. The fact that racing has been refreshed- that the forgotten have a chance to show their true character, that new cars are winning and old standards (Ferrari and McLaren) are struggling like Minardis of the past should be cause for jubilation - not pointless navel-gazing in the hopes of a new "driver aristocracy" predicated upon previous bias.... (Imagine the first Alonso failure in a McLaren or the first Hamilton failure in a Renault... and if you argue that any of this is self-defeating, I suggest you re-watch the 2007 WDC.)

Please - I don't want this to be a pro - anti - Hamilton thread - this is Tony Dodgins - not Lewis - saying these things. If you, as I do, disagree with these things, please argue with circumspection and respect. If you disagreee, I'd request the same courtesy.

All in all, a ridiculous idea, as far as I am concerned. But, what do you think?

#83 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:26

http://forums.autosp...threadid=107790

#84 w00dy

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:26

Just what I thought. Lewis needs a competitive car, that's the only merit of the rotation argument.

Autosport really need to come up with ways to combat this Lewis-fanboy attitude. They need some german journalists or or get to like Button even if Brawn does not feed them as much as McLaren does at press-events.

#85 peroa

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:26

Originally posted by tkulla


I dont' get the comparisons between this idea and a spec series.

With the rotation idea there is still a constructors champion. In fact, being separated from the WDC would make it a more prominent achievement.

And for the drivers, we'd see a winner who:

Took the checkered when in the better cars, AND...

Made the most of a midfield car to gather valuable points, AND...

Grabbed the lesser cars by the scruff and brought them up closer to the front.

In short, we'd see how well-rounded the drivers are. And don't forget all the direct comparisons between drivers and their "teammate" at each event. So much data to go through... (drool)


WTF?
The last 2-3 championships have been hard fought out and decided with 1 point difference.

Why would a sane person want to change that with such daft ideas as this and medals?

Isn`t it enough that spanky&greedy are fit for an institution ...

#86 ashnathan

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:29

Who the hell is Tony Dodgins?

#87 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:36

Originally posted by kids like ash
Who the hell is Tony Dodgins?


Google is your friend or will ignorance be bliss?

#88 Bruce

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:38

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever
http://forums.autosp...threadid=107790


Sorry Gilles - Thought I had an original thread - mea culpa....

#89 MCH

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:40

What a load of drivel :down:

#90 se7en_24

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:41

Originally posted by Bruce


Sorry Gilles - Thought I had an original thread - mea culpa....

Have you been drinking today?

#91 Bruce

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:41

Still - I think that I have stated my case cogently - if there is an overlap, let the admins sort it - in the meantime - have at it....!

#92 Bruce

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:42

Originally posted by MCH
What a load of drivel :down:


Yeah - I agree - Tony should retire....



:lol:

#93 Rob

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:43

Dodgins has lost all credibility with this rant. If he wants to implement such silly ideas, he should go and create a new category where it happens.

Historically, Formula One's entry has been free. It's up to whoever owns the car to decide who they want in it. To say otherwise is against what Formula One is about. If Dodgins wants to find out who the best driver is, then why not have a spec chassis with all cars run by the series? This isn't what he calls for and as soon as a series starts introducing gimmicks then it loses credibility.

Whatever happened to just having some cars and drivers and going racing?

#94 Bruce

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:43

Originally posted by se7en_24

Have you been drinking today?


LATELY???

You've read my posts.... Whats WRONG with you????? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

#95 tkulla

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:46

Originally posted by peroa

The last 2-3 championships have been hard fought out and decided with 1 point difference.

Why would a sane person want to change that with such daft ideas as this and medals?


Oh, I'm not saying F1 isn't entertaining now, and the last couple of seasons have been highly entertaining. Except that the WDC has been contested by the two Ferrari and two McLaren drivers, and that's it. Four guys. So for all we know the best driver (or even the best three) were simply not involved in the WDC.

The fact is that people root for drivers and root for teams, and usually they are joined. With the rotation, you could have a favorite driver and a favorite team to cheer on, which would be at least two and more often three cars to support.

But considering the logistics involved and what appears to be a majority that doesn't like or doesn't get the idea, I doubt we'll ever see it.

#96 Tony Matthews

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:47

So, Bruce! Not only you won't say what you mean, you've double-threaded! ;)

#97 Josta

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:52

I usually agree with Tony, but I have to agree with pretty much everything you said here. Driver rotation is just stupid, and unworkable. Everything was said about JV's introduction to F1, whilst completely ignoring LH's.

#98 Rob

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:55

Traditionally entry to Formula One has been free (until Ecclestone, Mosley and co started restricting it but I'm determined not to go off at a tangent here). Whoever enters a car must be free to decide whoever is driving it.

If you want to know who the best driver is then abolish teams and have identical cars all prepared by the series. Rotation is just a gimmick to "spice up the show." I'm sick of gimmicks. The product doesn't constantly need improving.

#99 Bruce

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 21:57

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
So, Bruce! Not only you won't say what you mean, you've double-threaded! ;)


I'm embarassed...

Well - no more so than usual..... ;)

Still - I think I have a point here. Read the Dodgins article. I'm full of sh*t. I know. But if I am, Dodgins is doubly, nah, trebly, nah, ten-fold so.

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#100 Bruce

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 22:03

Originally posted by peroa


Isn`t it enough that spanky&greedy are fit for an institution ...




:rotfl:

You're a good man peroa....